Every time one of you uses the phrase “Banned for being slightly critical”, it always turns out you were saying some of the most digusting shit imaginable. It’s such a tell, it’s like when you say “I was ostracized just for having a different political opinion!”
spoiler
And the opinion was about who should qualify as human
Like clockwork!
I got banned from one of the communities for simply saying I thought both socialism and capitalism won’t work without more nuance and blending.
I always figured the snowflakes were really the far right… But no, it’s both extremes, apparently.
The extremes of each ideology are surprisingly similar my friend
I honestly had no idea before I came to Lemmy.
I actually really enjoy a lot of the facets of socialism and communism… Most people would easily mistake my independent political position as “left”, especially since I strongly oppose the current GOP.
But here in Lemmygrad, I am apparently quite the villain for suggesting some extremist, far-left policies are toxic.
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The political spectrum is a circle. Extremists might latch on to different BS but personality types of extremists on all ends are essentially the same. Loud hateful aggressive assholes lacking the intelligence to understand nuance.
It appears the leftists would like you to stop saying unkind things about them. I guess it’s good we’re not in one of their specific communities, eh?
Way to prove the meme right, extremists.
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Perfect example above of not being able to read or understand nuance.
Yea, that’s more of a self-report on your end if you can’t comprehend nuance and think absolute rejection of classist hierarchy and absolute adherence to classist hierarchy** are the same positions**.
Extremists might latch on to different BS but personality types of extremists on all ends are essentially the same.
If you tried actually reading, you would have noticed how I in fact said the exact opposite. I never claimed they were the same, I specifically mentioned they may latch on to different things/positions. What I said instead was that they had the same personality type.
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Hurrdurr horseshoe theory. Even the wikipedia article on it is critical of this nonsense.
If you can’t examine real world examples of your philosophy critically, you’ve no business in the debate. Tankies aren’t willing to hear about the flaws apparent in the system any more than your average thin blue bootlicker will.
I say this as someone who makes guillotine “jokes.” Definitely jokes.
Socialism is just democracy extended into the workplace. Saying pure socialism won’t work is arguing against democracy.
I will always argue against pure democracies. People are not invested enough to provide a coherent opinion on 100% of the solutions our societies require for survive and thrive.
A vote over the use of chemicals for water treatment could easily end in their permanent ban. Hell, with the right malicious intent, someone could easily get dihydrogen monoxide banned from crop fields.
A pure democracy is how Idiocracy becomes a reality. Now, a mix, such as a republic electing the careful use of democratic socialism… Sure!
That isn’t how it works. It’s like if you’re a part of a cooperatively run business, then you get equal say in workplace practices. There isn’t a ‘boss’ dictating the rules to you.
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I think people confuse “liberal society” with “liberal capitalism” and think if you have 100% socialism then you don’t even own a toothbrush or something
Communism is when no iphonevuvuzellaonehundredbajillion
lemmy devs are actually pretty good at not forcing their ideology on others
A CAPITALIST SPY
GET HIM
Why would the devs do that? Their job is to make the platform
Yeah but they haven’t built in communism… yet.
I’d be ok though if it were the Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism though.
It is way easier to get banned on reddit for a lot less than a slight not conformist opinion. Here they downvote you, stop. And i talk about real controversies.
I don’t know what tankies are, and at this point I’m too afraid to ask.
Authoritarian communists, please see the second paragraph of this wiki article
Essentially a perjorative for authoritarian communists. The types of people who uncritically glorify the Soviet Union (and depending on which one you’re talking to, the Russian Federation as well), the People’s Republic of China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, etc. Here’s a page on Wikipedia about it.
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1462 points 3 years ago
reddit will delete this comment cuz they’re controlled by China but fuck the CCP!!!
same energy
Great username
What Trueanon episode do I need to listen to to understand this reference?
You shat on homeless people and got rightfully called out for it. Take the L instead of crying about tankies
it looks like the only comments of yours that were removed were for making inflammatory comments about homeless people on public transport in a place you don’t live.
stay classy, hexbear
We try our best
The hexbear promise is that anti-homeless rhetoric will continue to be bullied
stay classist,
The “show 18 more comments” button below this comment isn’t loading and I so desperately want to see the cope within
I love that y’all use that as an insult. It only carries any weight in your own echo chamber, you know that right? No where else on the planet (be it a forum or a physical space) does that mean anything. Well, maybe within north korea
I am pretty sure “classist” is seen as a valid insult even among radlibs, and many other people believe in equivalent terms (“elitist” is not too far off)
Referring to “lib”
That’s even sillier, since American parlance is definitely not universal and in most countries the colloquial meaning of “liberal” is essentially that of a market-loving centrist
Also, obviously, real-world American leftists use it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cdqQ2BdgOA
Again, to millions and millions a “market loving centrist” is not an insult
maybe within north korea
Nice whataboutism you centrist liberal tankie!!!
That must be why you felt the need to respond to it.
This is a message board, where we reply to each other.
By your approach: why did you feel the need to defend him? See? Silly.
This is a meesage board, where we reply to each other
My pronouns are right next to my username, and you still can’t get them right. Real fucking classy.
I literally can’t see them in voyager
maybe within north korea
Don’t worry, absolutely no one there is thinking about internet liberals, the DPRK lives rent-free in your head though
Lol yeah they’re thinking about the coming winter, or the reality that they aren’t even allowed to leave their country (for all but the most privileged) unfortunately
they aren’t even allowed to leave their country
This is true, do you know who keeps them inside though? The United Nations’ Security Council.
[…] the Security Council today further tightened sanctions on the country, severely restricting fuel imports and other trade, as well as the ability of its citizens to work abroad.
So when they cross the dmz are they loaded in a catapult and sent back?
If “on the planet” you mean primarily the U.S and secondarily the rest of the “west” while excluding the majority of humanity on the planet, then sure.
You’re so brainwashed and conditioned into believing you have more in common with some ghoul billionaire that values your life insofar as much as they can extract wealth out of you than your own fellow worker.
I mean everywhere that isn’t China or Russia or one of their satellites/annexes yeah.
Not sure where you got the billionaire thing, I’ve never defended them, in word or action. (Living in a capitalist country and needing a job for resources doesn’t make me a billionaire apologist)
Liberalism and billionaire worship are not the same thing, same as communism and xi are not the same thing.
To be clear: just because xi figuratively leads a communist country doesn’t mean this policy is perfectly communist.
Same thing goes for billionaires existing in a liberal society.
Lastly, the existence of either doesn’t invalidate the tenets of either ideology
Xi is no different than any other billionaire shit head most of the communist party top leaders use there position to gain control over the state controlled businesses
Xi first started geting so much hate from the west because he actually started purging communist party members for being too involved in the private sector. If he was encouraging the bourgeoisification of the CPC he would be hailed by the west.
This is incoherent. Xi has administrative control (or influence) over state enterprises, but he isn’t getting profits or stock options from them, so there are no grounds for calling him a billionaire
communist party top leaders use there position to gain control over the state controlled businesses
This is like saying you became a police commissioner to gain control over local police cars. Yeah, an explicit part of your job is that you can direct them, but the claim is so tautological that it looks like you are saying something else. It’s not like Xi will retain control of these enterprises after he leaves office.
Tell me you know nothing about the PRC without saying you know nothing about the PRC
The cia literally called him redder than red and unable to be corrupted by money lmao
None of that makes any sense
And it really sucks, because I agree with them (about lemmygrad and hexbear)
Dude I was speaking from experience in that post. I live there and took the train daily. Do I need to show you my LA Metro card to prove it?
Show a verification hog pic to continue posting
If this was reddit I would say that post belongs on r/confidentialityincorrect
Post your credit card number and DLN while you’re at it.
So a mod didn’t like a comment you made which was interpreted as encouraging anti-homeless hate. Instead of just moving on you decided to make this about “tankies” despite no one saying anything about Marxist ideology, China, or anything related. I think you’re just looking to pick a fight with us because we’re dirty pinko commies or something.
That was probably a more level headed way to deal with this person than the way too generous effort post I just commented lol
Khrushchev sending the tanks into Hungary was the one objectively correct thing he did during his tenure
Tankies are always right…
Smh, anti-tankies supporting anglo backed mass anti-semitic violence
Let’s do a little experiment:
- Tankies are horrible
- Nazi’s are horrible
- The US is horrible
- Russia is horrible
- China is horrible
See what I’m going to do is I’m going to make the nazis look equally bad to all these other things. That way the nazi atrocities will look less problematic and I get to smear my enemies with a tainted term.
No I’m not a nazi, why do you ask?
I can’t believe it actually worked lol
you pushed back on my nazi apologia just like I predicted
Checkmate liberal
-
Is wasn’t mine
-
You’re trying to hard to see what you want to see in order to sound morally superior for Internet high fives.
It is clearly a half assed joke saying that if you call a group horrible, someone with get butt hurt and respond accordingly. Which in a round about way is exactly what you did. Any further reading into it is on you.
Just so you know, Nazis have used assertions exactly like what Zoldyck said literally since the day after the nazis were defeated.
One name for it is “double genocide theory” which is used to a) diminish the crimes of the Nazis/ even to the extent of genocide denial and b) equate fascism and communism (an absolutely absurd claim, to be clear. Ask about it if you’re unaware!)
This is not something we regularly go around doing, we are very careful with what stuff we call nazi shit. We’re careful not to make the word lose its meaning. This was an example of a common nazi/nazi-adjacent talking point, and we take it seriously when we encounter it.
Its just like “Blue Lives Matter” is thinly veiled racism. other examples include 1488, the 14 words, ‘states rights’, etc.
It is clearly a half assed joke
They may have thought it was just a joke when saying it, but the intent doesn’t matter, because they may also have known what they were doing and did it on purpose, because they’re a nazi/ nazi adjacent.
You seem to know what you’re talking about, and not going to debate you on any of the points you just brought up. I certainly don’t disagree with anything you just said. I just still feel it’s a stretch to assume that comment is equating all of those things that were listed. That’s not what I took away from it at all, and still don’t.
just still feel it’s a stretch to assume that comment is equating all of those things that were listed.
I’m not sure I understand, Isnt that explicitly what the point of the post was? to equate all those things so that communists would get angry at them? what point was that comment making, in your view?
-
You are a fool lmfao
“I pushed this object off my shelf and just like I predicted it fell to the ground!”
Good enough for Galileo
well Galileo is DEAD
Well that’s not very nice, calling people names.
Didn’t know calling Nazi’s horrible is apologetic…
The comment doesn’t mention Child Rapists, so I guess OP doesn’t think those are horrible?
Child rapists are X
Shoplifters are X
School Shooters are X
Black people are X
White people are X
Do you see where I’m going with this yet? It doesn’t matter what X is. What matters is the equals sign.
Goddamn it I don’t know man, I failed algebra. X equals 42?
This would be a case of the transitive property, formally speaking
NO INVESTIGATION, NO RIGHT TO SPEAK
Silence, lib
I mean using that logic, is your post not apologetic towards the other, non-nazi entities listed?
“I’ll remind everyone that the nazis were definitely the worst there, that’ll make the others seem less bad by comparison.”
Interesting how exactly 4 of those are things a state has identified as.
there’s no such thing as a tankie
China is good
shut the fuck up liberal
Death to America
Found a tankie.
Also death to america.
One struggle
If America must die, who is going to kill it?
Americans!
Yeah, that’s unfortunately not likely. Revolutionary potential is way stronger in the periphery of the imperial order, not in the core.
Why are they not killing it now?
🥰
let’s do a little experiment kicks you in the groin
😂
The fun is if you had made some point about something china or Russia related and HADN’T also mentioned that the US is horrible, you’d get dogpiled.
The US is horrible, leave me alone
I mean yeah because the US does the same horrible horrible shit other existing countries do just more of it. Mentioning the smaller problem while ignoring the bigger problem(that we are closer to) is just how liberal brainwashing works.
I like concision: people are horrible.
:P
you’re just talking about yourself lmao
Death to America
People are fine. Hierarchy turns man into monster. Destroy the hierarchy, destroy the beast.
and Nazis
cry harder
Why are the libs so hung up on criticizing socialists? If you don’t like this forum then go back to reddit.
I’m a socialist but not a tankie. Criticizing tankies!= criticizing socialists
Classic tankie behaviour - > rather Clankie
What’s a tankie and how do you differentiate yourself from them as a socialist
A tankie is someone who blindly supports authoritarian regimes simply because they’re anti-west
This basically shows that what you care about is whether someone is anti-west or not. You are a western nationalist. Not a socialist, and certainly not an internationalist.
I’m anti-west. I don’t care at all if someone is anti-west, and in fact encourage it. But just because a regime is anti-west, that does not mean they’re in the right or should be blindly supported.
You say you’re anti west but every time the west says something about a bad guy you believe them
loving the absolute ratios these state dept shills are getting
And by blind. You mean checking the numbers on us propaganda and realize it is lies written in blood?
See that’s the thing: the fact that the west lies doesn’t mean that the east tells the truth. You are heavily skeptical of what the west has to say (good) but mostly uncritical of what any communist government has to say (bad).
Capitalist countries have done horrible things, but so have self-proclaimed communist countries
I have entire history books about how the west lies.
There is not a similar body of data about the loss of the east. Is it perfect? No. Do we have any reason to belive they are as bad or bad in the same kind of way as the people who oppose them? No.
General note: Most authors publishing critical material of the west in the (free speech) west don’t get silenced (edit: although professional blacklisting is all too common). Yes, I’m sure there are exceptions. You might not want to do that openly in China, Iran, or Russia these days, because the risks are well known/accepted. It definitely makes life harder for scholars and historians.
How do you differentiate yourself from them as a socialist? What is your theory of power and how it relates to authority, revolutions, and the working class that causes you to make this separation between supporting non-western communist countries and not?
I’m sorry, maybe I’m misunderstanding here. I think the delineation between authoritarian regimes and non-authoritarian governments is pretty clear - are you implying that all socialist and communist influenced governments are necessarily authoritarian?
I believe they are suggesting that, if “authoritarian” means anything, that every large state that has ever existed was “authoritarian,” though some diffuse the authority through things like enclosure of the commons combined with strict property laws or other, older methods like religious law.
I think the delineation between authoritarian regimes and non-authoritarian governments is pretty clear
Why are you unable to explain it then?
I think the dictionary definition is as I mentioned in a below comment, but the colloquial meaning has more to do with censorship by the government and restrictions on freedoms than go beyond those necessary for the health and welfare of other citizens.
No, I’m suggesting that authoritarian is a meaningless term unless defined specifically and was asking what theories of power and authority they had for making the delineation they are.
The derogatory term authoritarian is always leveled at socialist or communist countries, and never capitalist ones even though capitalist countries restrict rights for the majority of their populations by the very nature of the inherent power structure in capitalism. Even though communist countries usually enjoy far more decentralised authority, better voting rights, and higher political involvement in the populace, they are labeled as “authoritarian,” the implication being that they need “freedom” aka capitalism
My guy, that’s an awful lot of assumptions to be making about the general mindset of multiple nations, each of which contains millions of people. Derogatory? I’m pretty sure that authoritarianism has a dictionary definition lol. “Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.” From Wikipedia, just as a quick Google grab.
So do you think that, say, WW2 Italy wasn’t authoritarian? Or same-era Japan? Fascist nations are (by the above definition) authoritarian, so that actually includes tons of non-communist nations, both current and historical. Similarly, just because a nation is communist, does not make it magically except from having corrupt, authoritarian government. Id even say that America is well on its way to authoritarianism, and the right/neo-libs continue to salivate over the chance to completely fuck over the common person in exchange for a quick buck.
Genuinely, because I’m always looking to learn more; how does capitalism as an economic system inherently restrict rights? My understanding of the core premise is that it turns labor into a conceptual currency that we then use to acquire goods. It’s not, theoretically, at least, inherently oppressive. In practice, it’s been clearly a shit-show that causes more suffering than just about anything else on the planet.
As a side note; I’m deeply anti-capitalist, I’m also deeply anti-fascist and anti-authoritarian. I hate the idea that a human being is only worth the utility they provide, and I also hate the idea that oppression is a necessary consequence of an attempt to liberate the people of a nation from hyper-capitalist wagemongering. I’d like to think there’s a world where we can live and not oppress anyone, can genuinely engage in discourse and learn from each other without judgement.
What? The term authoritarian is thrown at non-communist/capitalist nations all the time. Syria, Nazi Germany, Libya, Franco’s Spain, Modern Russia, and a million other instances. Authoritarian is a clearly defined term and is in no way exclusively applied to communist nations in almost any circles. It also happens to have been applied to most “communist” countries because most of them have been authoritarian
Can you give an example of a ‘non-authoritarian government’?
All governments are inherently authoritarian by their nature, but there’s a scale and I think in most people’s minds there’s a line.
The line is probably drawn where people are prosecuted or even killed when they publicly criticise the ruling regime, where you have to “escape” to simply leave, where there’s a culture of fear that your neighbour or friends or even family could report you for disagreeing with the government. More often than not there’s no way for the public to change the government through democratic means.
I never said that I don’t support communist countries. What I do not support are abuses of power by authoritarian leaders, even if they claim to be abusing their power in order to bring about a communist state.
Tankies accept most/all atrocities committed by so-called communist leaders with a “the ends justify the means” attitude that I do not share.
What atrocities in particular do tankies accept
Soviet architecture.
To be fair killing nazis is pretty cool. We made some movies about it.
It is neat you are a fan of doing things where the ends do not justify the means. How do bathing moral decay like that feel?
Have you never heard the phrase “the ends justify the means” before? It’s a pretty common phrase.
It means that any action, no matter how unethical or morally reprehensible, is acceptable as long as it is done to accomplish a goal that is deemed good.
This is the tankie attitude.
To reject this means that there are limitations on what actions are acceptable in pursuit of a goal. That there are some actions that are too repugnant to be justified.
What exactly was wrong with Kruschev’s decision to send the tanks into Hungary to stop the fascist uprising?
Given the historical context of the literal genocides the US was facilitating in asia and south america at that time, even if you ignore the literal fascist collaborators hijacking the movement and pretend it was just a bunch of liberals fighting for “freedom”, keeping them from falling within the west’s claws would have been justified.
Let’s take a look what started that “fascist” uprising. Years of economic mismanagement, opression, and being forced to pay a big chunk of their gdp to the Soviets for war reperations were all factors that lead to the Hungarian Revolution.
And who did these “fascist” pick as their leader? Imre Nagy, the man who was ousted from power by the soviets for having the audacity to be a more moderate communist than hardline stallinists.
The US doing something bad doesn’t justify someone else doing bad. Think about a nazi who uses that reasoning, they would sound like a nazi apologist.
Yes, the US did some bad stuff, but I still view them as the lesser evil when compared to the USSR or China.
Also Hungary doing something 65 years later doesn’t justify the actions of the Soviets.
Whether the initial protesters had good reason or not, fascists quickly co-opted the movement in the same way they co-opted the liberal protests in Ukraine.
Hungary doing something 65 years later doesn’t justify the actions of the Soviets.
Their actions 65 years later prove there were significant numbers of nazis waiting in the wings, and that the soviets were insufficiently oppressive.
I couldn’t find a single mention of a fascist movement in the uprising. So either it was neglible in size, or you are just lying.
“Insufficiently oppressive”. What? Hungary was a really oppressive nation during that time, and you wanted it to be more oppressive?
And opressive to who? Fascist? They can just lie about not being a fascist. That leaves out to just guess who is a fascist and that sounds like a wonderful time for the citizens.
Patton really was correct about the Soviet Union.
Words evolve and change in meaning. Calling someone a tankie in 2023 is not a comment on their opinions of an event that happened a lifetime ago.
Right, now Tankie is all but useless because liberals and so-called leftists that criticize communism use it the same way conservatives use “woke”
I actually think conservatives usually use the term “woke” correctly, though? Like, everything they call “woke” is typically good.
Yeah, much like how everything liberals call “tankie” is actually good.
OK, is there a more recent case where you believe supporting the US over critically supporting its opposition is vindicated by history?
I don’t generally believe in supporting the US, since it is an emperialist, capitalist country.
B-b-but have you heard of Nestor Makhno! Yeah, it’s pretty underground but he was this totally rad anarchist that shot a bunch of tankies (um, somebody call the BASED department!?!?) and was totally productive in doing other things like . . . Stopping some of the people who he armed and trained after they went and committed pogroms and . . . Uh, well, he had a newspaper in France where he totally stuck it to the tankies and also every other leftist around him until he died in near complete social isolation, but . . . Um . . . He helped kill that fascist leader that one time (by being very ineffective in trying to dissuade the Jewish anarchist who actually did kill that fascist).
Being an anti-communist leftist still makes you an anti-communist
Being anti-tankie does not make you anti-communist.
what the fuck do words even mean anymore, read marx jesus christ
Telling someone to read Marx to understand modern day socialism is like telling someone to read Newton to understand modern day physics tbh.
Newton to understand modern day physics
I mean yeah, if you want to understand the devolopment of physics you are required to understand the foundations it was built on, this is basic study.
Its like telling someone they should read the bible if they want to be christian, or telling someone they should read the instruction manual if they want to actually know what the terms they are using mean.
Yeah, you should read Marx if you want to understand the historical development of socialist ideas, but if that’s where your reading ends, then your ideas are stuck in the past.
Socialism isn’ta religious dogma that is inflexible and unchanging. It’s an intellectual idea that grows and becomes more refined over time.
Yeah, you’re right. It’s also important to read Lenin’s works on imperialism to understand modern socialism. It’s important to study Mao as well.
I used to think that Marx was overrated because I never needed to read him but holy shit it’s clear that 95% of the populace cannot form coherent ideologies without being taught them
Tankie usually refers to Marxism-Leninism (as well the ideologies that derived from it such as Maoism). But there are communist ideologies that don’t derive from ML such as Orthodox Marxism, trotskyism, libertarian Marxism, bulshevism, etc.
Tankie usually refers to Marxism-Leninism
no it usually refers to whatever the fuck the person posting it seems to think it is, there is not a coherent label for it.
Orthodox Marxism, trotskyism, libertarian Marxism, bulshevism, etc.
Oh cool, which societies use those?
no it usually refers to whatever the fuck the person posting it seems to think it is, there is not a coherent label for it.
Why are you letting libs define everything? You and I both know they’re dumbasses and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Oh cool, which societies use those?
Anyone could have said the same to Marx about communism at any point in his life, as he died before the October revolution.
Omg read theory dammit!
How would Trotskyism be any less “authoritarian” Than marxism leninism ? Also almost every claims on some level to be “orthodox marxist”, lenin most of all and MLs as well
How so? How is being against AES not anti-comminist?
Cause you can hate one thing but like an other version.
The world is not black and white.
‘Im not wrong its the billions of people living in communist countries that are wrong’
Removed by mod
How you like communism and hate communism at the same time? Its not black and white thinking, its just basic reality
Been thinking about getting one so I can just regurgitate trite Redditisms and feel content contributing nothing to the minds of others.
Why does AES always seems to end up with forced labor camps? I don’t remember forced labor camps being a central part of socialist ideology…
A country can call itself socialist, that doesn’t make it so.
So the arbiter of what is socialist is you? Not the revolutionaries who have actually worked on socialist projects
Yes, I can have an opinion on socialism without having been a socialist-revolutionary. That is correct. Spot on.
As opposed to you/hexbear being sole arbiters?
So America is AES? We lead the world in prision labor.
America bad does not imply China good.
“Being anti-woke doesn’t mean I’m conservative!”
When people say “anti-woke”, they actually mean that they are anti-doing anything about the awareness of systemic inequality that wokeness indicates. By definition, someone who is against change/progress is a conservative, so when someone says they are anti-woke, they are by definition expressing a conservative stance. That is, wanting to do something about systemic inequality is synonymous with having a progressive stance on systemic inequality.
Being a tankie, on the other hand, is not synonymous with being a comunist. Tankies are just one form of communist (militant).
And when people say they are “anti-tankie”, they actually mean that they are anti doing anything about the awareness of systematic inequality that tankie indicates. By definition, someone who is against change/progress is a conservative, so when someone says they are anti-tankie, they are by definition expressing a conservative stance. That is, wanting to do something about systemic inequality is synonymous with having a progressive stance on systemic inequality.
Being a tankie, on the other hand, is not synonymous with being a comunist. Tankies are just one form of communist (militant).
Other way around: communists are just one form of tankies, the word is also used to refer to anarchists and some soc-dems.
You’re spun around, flipped upside-down, and confused as can be.
Tankie is a term that specifically refers to one particular kind of communism; namely, the kind that supports authoritarian regimes that try to impose communism through the use of force to repress dissent.
You can be a communist and not be a tankie. You cannot be against progress and be a progressive.
Yeah thinking criticizing Tankies is the same as criticizing socialism is tankie behavior
Norway isn’t socialism.
That isn’t how Lenny works, though. Anybody can fire up an instance for any type of community. They could be pro-socialist, anti-socialist, liberals, Nazis, goldfish fanciers…you name it. If you don’t like them, you can defederate from them.
For sure totally agree. So why do the goldfish fancies keep making memes making fun of another community? Why don’t they just defederate?
I experience the opposite. Whenever I criticise US government, I get attacked by hordes of cringy Americans.
Little do people know everyone is shit and your personality that is only based on ideologies makes you look like a moron. Yes we know there is unfairness in the world. But any “ism” won’t fix it.
Yes we know there is unfairness in the world. But any “ism” won’t fix it.
Least of all quietism like you display
Doomerism be like:
Yeah you’re right shits fucked so let’s just accept the status quo, oh would you look at that you’re just supporting the current oppressive system.
Being a centrist or “apolotical” is just being a conservative while still being able to fuck“No Lives Matter” type beat
Just because you don’t care to look into it doesn’t mean you don’t prescribe to any ism
In fact, people who say shit like that most definitely do
Little do people know everyone is shit
People who say this think they’re being world-wise when they’re actually just putting out a general warning about themselves
I must say I had a pleasant conversation on workers’ rights in the US recently on c/technology (lemmy.world). By pleasant I mean “not being insulted because I live in France and workers do have rights so I’m a red commie” pleasant.
For the majority of Americans, as long as you are a pleasant person, you will have pleasant conversations, even if it’s about a disagreement.
A. This leads to politeness fetishists and tone policing. If someone says something offensive like “we should remove LGBT+ books from schools,” I’d rather shoot myself than speak nicely to that person.
B. This has not been my experience with my fellow Americans at all. I even saw a mod from lemmy.world post mod-flaired horseshit in their politics community about how “The US is not a racist country.” Fuck that.
Fuck tankies but also fuck OP
Looks like OP is going full-blown “I don’t hate the homeless, but…” elsewhere itt
I’d love to see his ass banned again
As someone who has worked extensively with the homeless, I’ve seen quite a few examples of where supposedly anti-homeless takes have been attempts to inject more nuance into discussions than simply being pro- or anti-homeless, both of which are practically meaningless positions.
In this case however, OP just has some awful opinions about people he assumes are homeless. So not really any nuance here, just sugar-coated classism and general bigotry
@Someonelol@lemmy.ml
Soon to be Noonelol@siberia.su
Tankie is just a slur for people who aren’t ideological and financially compromised by the United Treats of America.
Found the tankie.
Honestly What bullshit.
Tankie is a slur for authoritarian communists.
There is a healthy and honest way to appreciate communism, Russia, the CCP and even DPRK.
And then there are people who are completely shilling the CCP Russia DPRK as communist uptopias. These people are tankies.
If you are unable to recoginze the atrocities commited at any point in history, by the USA China, Russia , or any other country for that Matter. You’re a chump.
There is a healthy and honest way to appreciate communism, Russia, the CCP and even DPRK.
Agreed
And then there are people who are completely shilling the CCP Russia DPRK as communist uptopias. These people are tankies.
I would agree with you, if you simply called them dumbasses instead of using the equivalent of “woke” that’s virtually meaningless now. I have seen communists, anarchists, liberals, and even Zelensky being branded as “tankies”
If you are unable to recognize atrocity propaganda by the US and/or Nazi collaborators or evangelical wackos who believe God tasked them with destroying a country, you’re a chump.
Its a good thong that that I do recognizes these these events. i just also know that russia has also commited atrocities. Much like most imperialist nations.
Tell me about the second and third ones I mentioned
the atrocities commited at any point in history, by the USA China, Russia , or any other country for that Matter
Just another whataboutism from a liberal centrist tankie!!!
I dont understand what you are saying here.
Can you expand?
I think he’s being sarcastic.
Im actually an anarchist. I critizes everone. Including the liberalszzzzz communistss, facists, and the corrupt american imperialsts.
What a surprize this person pull his images from hexbear.
Ah, what sort of anarchist political theory have you read?
wikipedia, evidently
- i criticize everyone therefore i am correct and enlightened
Do you have any arguments besides calling me a lib? You’ve done this like 15 times.
If you have such a problem with being called a tankie, its kinda hypocritical to call me a lib. Imo.
Im not a liberal. Im an anarchist. anarchist also use this term to describe the way the USSR acted toward the Anarchists of the spainish civil war.
I don’t care if you call me tankie
You engage when i call you a
but not when asked questions, like why Sankara is the one good “authoritarian?” or people asking what you about your thoughts on anarchism beside “authoritarian bad.” You just link to wikipedia and use that -ass word tankieI don’t care if you call me tankie !
You seem pretty movtivated in the conversation about me using the term tankie so I think this is bs.
Stop calling me a lib and we can have a conversation.
Are you interested in that?
What is the position anarchists take regarding the state, as opposed to say, socialists?
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https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1783563
This comment is above yours on this thread. Or at least, NK would apparently be a utopia if it had more resources.
You have obviously never been to hexbear.
Hexbear, not even once.
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“Communist utopia” is the strawman of any support whatsoever for China and the DPRK, they’re arguing in bad faith. They know this but it will be fun to see their example (probably a shitpost from 2 years ago).
imagine actually reading marx and understanding how he literally wrote an essay about how marxism is not utopian
Nah im good. Ive seen it myself and im not interested in going back to that cesspool.
Why dont you show me an example of someone on hexbear critizing russia or ccp?
Literally one example.
You’re not gonna find any utopian communists on hexbear, they’re almost all marxists.
in case you needed a reminder that Putin is in fact a bad person (58 upvotes, 1 year ago)
Fuck off and stop lying.
https://hexbear.net/comment/2175192
Putin does not care about the well-being of Ukrainian citizens
Of course not, he has never. He is acting in self-interest because Ukraine and the US are escalating violence. Do you remember the lethal aid Biden sent? Where do you think that lethal aid went? Who do you think it was shot at?
we’re teetering on Putin apologia and sharing RT news uncritically.
Putin is a corrupt bastard. I think many on this site cannot tell the difference between not viewing him as satanic vs licking his boot. I wasn’t going to try to argue this until your post came up.
https://hexbear.net/comment/290125
So, China is clearly better than the US, considering that workers in BRI countries complain about price dumping, but countries in the American sphere complain about death squads. That said, we need to listen to workers and socialists who aren’t in power. The NPA says they’re getting shot with Chinese bullets. Workers in China still go on strike. Class struggle still exists in China, even if the state and party buffer it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party
Its both. Be less of a dick.
Thanks for post examples of modern day russia being authoritarian, homophobia is usually a sign of authoritarianism.
So i guess you got me. Russia still sux.
What was your point again?
But why would you believe your lying eyes? /s
You all use tankie exactly the same way republicans use woke. As a meaningless thought-terminating cliche deployed against literally everyone to your left to avoid actually learning anything.
Or the way tankies use the phrase ‘libs.’
Not really? The only thing you ever say to us is “tankie” or accuse us of being bots of some sort. You never actually engage in any discourse. That’s why you have this terminology, it functions as a method of literally dodging any engagement with anything we say, effectively by calling someone a tankie you give yourselves a socially acceptable way to avoid learning anything from socialists. It’s thought-terminating.
If you have anything worth saying that’s actually in good-faith I will completely engage with you. The point is that you deploy this word to avoid any engagement. The tactic is exactly the same tactic as the conservatives use to avoid any right-wing people engaging with anything to the left of them, if it’s “woke” they can switch off their brain and exercise avoidance to learning anything about it that might make them think differently.
Liberals, of both the conservative and democrat variety, both use exactly the same tactic on the people to their left.
Talk to me about something a marxist has just dismissed you on with the use of “lib”. I am happy to talk to you about it. What do you want to say? We call you libs because you ARE libs. You support Liberalism. The ideology of capitalism. Our actual analog to “tankie” is calling you dronies.
Strange, I do not uncritically support any of those democracies (I assume you mean USSR when you say Russia) and I keep being called tankie.
Tankie is to liberals as woke is to right liberals and fascists.
Also it is CPC, CCP has racist connotations and also isn’t what they’re called.
What is your definition of a democracy? Does it involve the public voting?
I’m partial to full process people’s democracy and other participatory democratic and consensus generating models
What stops China and the DPRK being utopias is resources, not the CPC or WPK. The CPC and WPK are both forces of good. (What stops Russia from being a communist utopia is that the bourgeois democracy is actively working towards creating a capitalist dystopia).
whites can’t understand what resources are, because doing so would take away the special snowflake status they’ve given themselves in their mind
Are the tankies in the room with us right now, shitlib?
Yeah some of them. I think im speaking to one right now.
Pleae tell me your totally not tankie ideas.
Am I a tankie? I like socialism but think communism (total state control) is too far. We need, as AOC said, “an end to unregulated capitalism”, but we can’t go the authoritarian route of China or North Korea. I envision socialism as Norway and Sweden, these nations that have achieved harmony through peace and cooperation with liberal capitalism; we need nations that don’t put down pro-democracy protests or have “socialist” attitudes around immigration/investment which restrict genuine freedom. I have seen several “tankies” (I hope I am using this right) say, verbatim, “North Korea is heaven on earth and a genuine utopia in every way”, which really worries me. I tried to show them Yeonmi Park videos and Human Rights in North Korea articles but they all just laugh at me. Honestly I’ve considered leaving this instance, since even anarchism seems too far to me (how will capitalism be regulated without a state?), plus a lot of anarchists here are tankies as well, and they have no regard for human rights or the genocide China is currently committing. My only shining light of hope is the people like you who check these attitudes with credible sources and expose these lies in detail. Slava ukraini and freedom to all!
You’re not a tankie. Tankies deny the oppressive nature of Russia, China, North Korea etc., deflecting all critique with whataboutism by pointing at shortcomings or atrocities of Western nations. Some like to call you Nazi or imperialist if you disagree with them, while in many aspects their ideology and that of their paragon countries is much closer to Nazism than that of liberal democracies like the ones you mentioned.
Some like to call you Nazi or imperialist if you disagree with them, while in many aspects their ideology and that of their paragon countries is much closer to Nazism than that of liberal democracies like the ones you mentioned.
Unsure how this could be the case. Norway and Sweden both exploit the third world and have horribly racist attitudes towards immigration. And of course both cozy up to the United States, the country which inspired Nazi Germany in the first place [1] [2] [3].
Am I a tankie? I like socialism but think communism (total state control) is too far.
No you are not a tankie. You are very painfully a liberal.
Please keep reading and understand there is a difference between authoritarian communism and communism
Please see Thomas Sankara.
I was trolling. Thomas Sankara was executed in a U.S.-backed coup. Do you think maybe he should have exercised more authority, better strengthened defenses and built up a stronger base for combatting imperialism, that he could have avoided this (I don’t have an exact policy path, and it’s not like Sankara didn’t put down certain reactionary movements when necessary)? I’m sympathetic to Sankara of course, but if your ideal system of resisting authority succumbs to counter-authority, then maybe you don’t have grounds to condemn greater authority exercised to these ends. I don’t know how a “communist” could see authority in a vacuum to the point of accepting “authoritarianism” as anything other than the singling out of the authority of certain systems over others in safeguarding and expanding interests.
I was trolling
Your not doing very good job. Your just coming off as an idiot too me.
Do you think maybe he should have exercised more authority, better strengthened defenses and built up a stronger base for combatting imperialism, that he could have avoided this (I don’t have an exact policy path, and it’s not like Sankara didn’t put down certain reactionary movements when necessary)?
Can you be more concise? Your run on sentences make me want to stop talking to you.
Im not here to go over the specifics of Sankaras’s Decisons: But From what I do know. He fought corruption, he pushed literacy programs and fought malnutrition. All While resistsing western imperialsm.
Im sure he made mistakes and did some problematic things. As an anarchist I can appreicate the good things he did and be open to the concept that he also did bad things as well.
Just like the USSR CPC and other communist governments.
I’m sympathetic to Sankara of course, but if your ideal system of resisting authority succumbs to counter-authority, then maybe you don’t have grounds to condemn greater authority exercised to these ends.
Your going to have to rewrite, this i dont understand what you are saying. Are you referring to me or Sankara?
Sankara was ML, like me and all the people you’re calling “tankies” or “authoritarian” communists
We’ve read plenty of Sankara, time you to to read a little Jakarta Method
This was another very difficult question I had to ask my interview subjects, especially the leftists from Southeast Asia and Latin America. When we would get to discussing the old debates between peaceful and armed revolution; between hardline Marxism and democratic socialism, I would ask:
“Who was right?”
In Guatemala, was it Árbenz or Che who had the right approach? Or in Indonesia, when Mao warned Aidit that the PKI should arm themselves, and they did not? In Chile, was it the young revolutionaries in the MIR who were right in those college debates, or the more disciplined, moderate Chilean Communist Party?
Most of the people I spoke with who were politically involved back then believed fervently in a nonviolent approach, in gradual, peaceful, democratic change. They often had no love for the systems set up by people like Mao. But they knew that their side had lost the debate, because so many of their friends were dead. They often admitted, without hesitation or pleasure, that the hardliners had been right. Aidit’s unarmed party didn’t survive. Allende’s democratic socialism was not allowed, regardless of the détente between the Soviets and Washington.
Looking at it this way, the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported—what the rich countries said, rather than what they did. That group was annihilated.
This post is proof Tom Lehrer was wrong about exactly one thing
great bit comrade
What is a tankie? How would we know if we are according to you?
If you support authoritarian communism, you are a tankie.
Do you know where the term comes from?
What is “authoritarian” communism? Sounds like some political compass bullshit that doesn’t exist in the real world.
Yeah it comes from a disagreement amoung British socialists between people who correctly supported the USSR committing military force to safeguard Hungary from a coup, and some libs who were against it
What is “authoritarian” communism?
Why dont you google it?
Lmao you acting like im making this word up is the most tankie shit i have ever seen.
We aren’t uncritical of the USSR, China, and the DPRK, we just think they broadly did (and do) much more good than bad.
Also, “CCP” isn’t a country or even a party (CPC), it’s China or the PRC. I assume when you say “Russia” you mean the Soviet Union that hasn’t existed in thirty years as Russia is a capitalist country now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party
Do you people have internet?
I speak of russia generally so I can include USSR and the current state of affairs. I realize they are different but they are both authoritarian.
They be capitalist but they call themselves communists.
There is a healthy and honest way to appreciate communism, Russia, the CCP and even DPRK.
Please tell us more about those healthy and honest “anti-authoritarian” non-tankie communists. Who are they and what political results have they made?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara
Please shut up and read more.
Sankara supported the USSR and DPRK, just like all actual communists do
Im not a communist, i am an anarchist.
What do you think about Bakunin?
Im not a communist, i am a
Then why are you telling communist to read about Sankara, a figure we already know and love
Becuase he is am example of a communist I support.
People keep calling me a liberal. Im an anarchist.
He set up Popular Revolutionary Tribunals to prosecute public officials charged with political crimes[12] and corruption, considering such elements of the state counter-revolutionaries.[15] This led to criticism by Amnesty International for human rights violations, including extrajudicial executions and arbitrary detentions of political opponents.[16]
idk sounds pretty authoritarian to me.
His country had corruption!
Im sure there is a better way but your acting like having tribunals makes you authoritarian.
It doesn’t.
Statists using tribunals to try other statists is the use of state authority and the use of the state’s monopoly on the legitimate use of force. If “Authoritarian” means anything at all then using the power of the state to prosecute people who are doing state stuff in ways you don’t like is authoritarian.
I wonder if any other countries had to deal with corruption after the revolution…
Sankara is a tankie by everyone’s definition here. He came to power via a coup, held military tribunals trying people for corruption, formed armed groups to defend the revolution, and was vehemently against NATO, the IMF, and other western powers.
What does anti-authoritarian mean to you if Sankara is anti-authoritarian
Also arrested trade union leaders and got into it with a teacher’s union. I obviously support Sankara, and like you say he’s really not different from any other communist leaders except that he was assassinated and his work undone.
He came to power via a coup, held military tribunals trying people for corruption, formed armed groups to defend the revolution, and was vehemently against NATO, the IMF, and other western powers.
You think trying people for corruption make you authoritarian?
Are you a liberal?
I think that authoritarian is a basically meaningless term when applied to a states.
All states are in the business of using lethal violence, or the threat of it at least, to enforce their rule within their borders.
Thats why i am an anarchist…
oh god oh fuck
whatdeleted by creator
By all measures, you should hate Sankara as well. Be consistent.
i dont think. so sankara did some really cool things.
The USSR did some cool things too , AT FIRST: then they started murdering anarchist and consolidating power and becoming a police state. As an anarchist I oppose this.
Maybe Sankara would have done the same if he lived. But he didn’t. He was murdered in a US back coup. He was murdered for being an anti imperialist.
The USSR is not anti imperialst. Neither is the CPC. These communists experiments became police states. Sankara didnt.
Sankara fought for nitrution, literacy anticorruption anti imperialism. He put more women in government snd fought against female genital mutilation. Anarchist support all of these things.
What we dont support is police states. Among other things.
Not even authoritarian communists. Tankies defend state capitalist China all the time. Same with Russia.
It’s a vibes-based invective liberals use the same way chuds use “woke” to dispel any cognitive dissonance that might crop up whenever they discover information they find displeasing because it might mean the rest of the delusions they’re immersed in might not be all that airtight. Just a thought-terminating word with absolutely no meaning. Just like “whataboutism,” it’s a weasel’s way out of addressing someone else’s argument in good faith (which I have yet to see you display in this thread).
Personally, it’s absolutely fucking hilarious to see how much these words get thrown around, especially when it comes from so-called “leftists.” If you truly are one, you ought to quit it with that bullshit.
I know it gets used like shit but do you think there’s any utility in the term ‘whataboutism’ if the definition is strict? Like I always understood it to be pointing out ludicrous pontificating about things that’ll never happen. Obviously that’s not how it’s used at all in reality and your description is much more apt.
The new use will struggle while the old use remains popular
I believe that was the original intent of the word, just wondering if it’s essentially defunct because of how it’s used now.
The term (or the term whataboutery, which it emerged from) was originally used by pro-British newspapers during the troubles to complain that when people would whine about IRA activities others would respond by pointing out that their direct opposition, the British, were committing atrocities.
It’s always been a tool for Western hegemony to avoid criticism and accusations of hypocrisy.
Wow that was definitely an enlightening read on the etymology, so the word was fucked from the get go haha…
Sean O’Conaill (1976) - 'I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the “enemy”, and therefore the justice of the Provisionals’ cause: “What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force feeding, army intimidation?”. ’
I see, my mistake, though from a descriptivist standpoint a meaning that a word long-since lost and one that it never had are virtually the same thing on a functional level
It’d be tough to get everyone to sign on, but I’d be down for your definition. It sounds like it better matches the word itself. Feels like a term I could use as a synonym for brainstorming, or when I talk about transit expansions in my city
spoiler
Acting like china and russia did nothing wrong is ludacris. They have fucking gulags and education camps.
Denying this does nothing good for leftist movements. It weakness us as a whole because we can’t have real conversation about the future of leftism.
I don’t have to support every government that calls itself communist to be a leftist.
I know that liberals use the term incorrectly. That doesnt mean I cant call out blanatant red fascism when I see it.
When did my personal opinions on Russia or China come into any of this lol all I said was that “tankie” has no definitive meaning as used and that leftists using it is dumb and makes them sound like liberals. That the term to you equates to uncritical support of AES and Russia kind of proves the point in both respects.
How do you build a future for leftism if you’re going to just call people tankies and tell them to fuck off back to hexbear and lemmygrad? They’re about the last place I’d expect fascism to be celebrated based on my experience.
Gulag just means prison in Russian. I don’t know what they call prisons in China, but its not gulag. The prison system refered to as “the Gulag” in the west only existed for like 20 years or so. Less people were imprisioned in that system than at any time under Czarist russia, and far less than in the US now.
Just because it has a foreign name doesn’t make it anything other than just a prison. I know you’re an anarchist and for prison abolition, which is cool. But don’t act like there are some kind of extra bad prisons in AES
Acting like china and russia did nothing wrong is ludacris.
Which is why we don’t do it, as you were literally just shown when you asked for examples. Why are you continuing to spread knowing lies about us?
Stop using we. And us. You are not a representative of every communist. Lol
Ive argued many times on this topic. And I found many people calling themselves communists and blindly supporting CPC and The russia federation.
Stop acting like this isnt a thing.
You can speak for us comrade @Zuzak@hexbear.net
Stop using we. And us. You are not a representative of every communist. Lol
I’m not claiming to be. I am, however, a member of the online community that you’re insulting with claims that you know to be false.
Not completely hating all AES is the same as full uncritical support to them
Ok great. Honestly I’m getting tired & running out of steam arguing with people.
Truth is this. When one of the first big lemmy jumps from reddit came I heard that hexbear was cool a leftist space. so hopped on. I was honestly disgusted by the comments i saw. I saw so many people arguing blindly for CPC and DPRK. Saying they were better than the US and calling anybody critiquing the bold claims they were making libs. such as “Cpc is the future socialism.” And "all the bad things people say about the CPC is american propaganda. "
Basically same thing that happend here when I defined tankie as authoritarian communist . In fact I saw this kind of thing on reddit too alot.
I dont give a fuck what you say or what other commenters post. I’ve seen this phenomena myself. I’ve been called a lib, So many times, simply for posting that I don’t support Russia or the CPC in leftist spaces. I’m sick of it.
So what are we arguing about? Is hexbear not as bad as I thought it was? Ok cool. Im wrong.
I know there are people in “your” community that are actual tankies. I’ve argued with them myself. Are you trying to say these people don’t exist? Cuz If you are, You’re the one that is full shit.
There anything else you want to debate about?
Go Team Venture!
✌️💀✌️
