I’m out of the loop and still new to Lemmy, what happened?
Huge drama surrounding instances that have a major far-right presence and certain instances cutting connections (defederating), while others aren’t (staying federated).
I like how someone put it in another thread. From the “defederaters,” The argument most seen is: “if there’s a nazi at the table and you say nothing, it’s a table full of nazis.” The most common counter-argument is “it’s actually like a stadium full of people with some nazi’s in the corner jerking themselves off.” From the “federators,” the most common argument is “defederation defeats decentralization,” and the most common counter to this is simply: “fuck off nazi!”
I find the whole situation quite extraordinary to see unfold and be a part of.
And the beauty of the fediverse is if you are a Nazi sympathizer, you can pick an instance that federates with assholes!
Plus, I’d rather have those useless fuckers out in the open - it’s easier to hit them that way. Hit them with legal charges is what I meant, of course.
What stadiums have these people been to where being a Nazi is okay? Stadium staff curate very specific atmospheres, and being a Nazi is an automatic disqualifier
Excellent example of why giant instances are bad ideas. Nazis love forcing you into a “throw the baby out with the bathwater” type choice because it means they can continue their hateful, destructive, genocidal behaviors without consequences. They’re usually not stupid, they know what they’re doing is wrong, they just want to keep getting away with it. So they’ll go nuclear on anyone and everyone in order to maintain their comfy corner of hate.
Any moderator (or stadium owner) who doesn’t give Nazis jerking off in a corner a lifetime ban is negligent, as you said.
Aren’t the instances defederating from exploding heads actually the ones maintaining their comfy corners though
Yes but instead of a comfy corner of hate, it’s a comfy corner without nazis
Coming from ShitJustWorks, I never ever have seen a thread from exploding-heads. They simply do not make it into the feed. And the only reason I saw any posts from TheDonald community while it still existed was because sorting by active was broken and would randomly throw in threads with no traction whatsoever. I can get behind keeping a space hate-free. But currently, there simply is no hate being shown even on instances still federated with exploding-heads.
Do you actually have solid grounds to call all the users of an instance nazis? That’s not something to throw around lightly
Stop running away from Nazi. Most of them are just trolls with a Nazi facemask to scare a reaction out of you. Don’t cede power to them by acting as if their are dangerous. They are clowns, clown them.
It isn’t “running away”, its preferring to go to bars where the bouncer will reliably throw nazis out. If these bouncers didn’t toss a nazi, I’d find a bar where they would.
Don’t be surprised when you or one of your friend gets thrown out as well
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I’m not running away, I’m saying any “stadium” owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it’s a Nazi bar. “Not all Germans” physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don’t stay quiet and let it grow.
I don’t think they’re real. Pet theory, they’re actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
I don’t think they’re real. Pet theory, they’re actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
Main issue is that in a large enough group of people, there are bound to be a few Nazis that slip in and start causing shit.
Going nuclear (defederating) on the whole group before they are aware or can react to this revelation is completely unreasonable. Even more so when the instance owners, moderators and the community are aware and actively down-voting and removing comments and communities.
Ahh, the fine line between “must cut all contact with the bad people” and “oh, are we an insular cult now?”
As the old and wise George Carlin used to say…“fuck the ducking fuckers”. Use the word! It literally can be every word in a full sentence.
It’s not a fine line. More like an 8-lane highway
Literally anyone who isn’t a bigot/Nazi is welcome. I’m so sorry if that’s an ‘insular cult’ to you, but to most people that’s just decent company.
We have both extremes actually, both ultra left and right. Both got defederated by some major instances.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Nein!
Removed by mod
Hetzjagd auf Nazis! Sie sind Abschaum.
I leave for like two days and shit’s going on without me
***Without me? ***
There are a lot of instances openly hosting hideous neofascists. Anyone who uses the word “tankie” “wumao” or the like can be safely regarded as having neofascist Cold War beliefs, and a majority chunk of people that hate communism can also be safely regarded as chuds that should be distanced away.
Always good to see horseshoe theory poke up it’s ugly head
As long as I found the Nazi disturbing, the “denialism” in Tianmen square massacre or gulag or Ussr stalin purge or Uyghurs genocide from the far-left ideology is as much disturbing as the same from the far-right one. Just because this instance seems leftish and anti-Nazi, it doesn’t leverage itself to a better position.
Yeah extreme ideologies are bad, but instead of talking left vs right, which is pointless as you are trying to comp genocidal maniacs against eachother. They are all totalitarian evil, we put extra labels on so we can pick sides.
how about we consider why groups want control over your life. The left cares for society and group rights, the right cares for individual rights. I could argue the value of both, but we are overpopulated and the desires of the individual shouldn’t be valued greater than that of a society, our environment, quality of life, right to health and security from violence and economic greed. Im not saying the left is good at what they do but at least they try to manage the mess instead of arrogantly assuming market forces, churches or the metaphysical can or will solve peoples unnecessary suffering.
Sorry just because you (or “we”) would love to put labels to pick sides, it doesn’t mean I belong to your described “labels” or “sides” because I treat far left and far right are the same. Maybe some political compasses can help. I don’t take sides. I agreed with the problems you think. Maybe you can try to stop putting labels (or picking sides) so that it might help to provide for some perspective angles. Wish you the best
Neither of those are denied by anyone here, shoo
Make sure the mods don’t read it
Apparently liking worker rights and to reduce wealth equality means you’re a full blown CCP worshipper. I just want to be paid a livable wage and have better human rights dude.
The tankies have been here for a while so it’s only a matter of time.
Tankies aren’t nearly as harmful as Nazis, they don’t make communities unsafe. You can disagree with a tankie and that’s the end of it. With Nazis, it’s completely different.
I don’t know there’s lots of people in these ML Utopias that would big to differ with you on that. As someone who tends more LM myself. Marxist Leninists are a very real threat and shouldn’t be simply brushed off. You’re not wrong and saying that they are not the same type or intensity of threat as Nazis. But given enough control and power many of them are ready and eager to assassinate/slaughter etc those they disagree with. It’s more a difference of numbers. In the United States we’ve been indoctrinated and miseducated about socialism for over 100 years. To where people reflexively recoil at any mention of socialists good or bad. They don’t really differentiate. To them all socialists are bad. Whereas over the last 100 years Nazism was modeled over groups here in the United States. Who’ve been in power and existed throughout all that time. If that ratio changed we would be much more concerned about the ML.
Marxist Leninists are a very real threat and shouldn’t be simply brushed off. You’re not wrong and saying that they are not the same type or intensity of threat as Nazis. But given enough control and power many of them are ready and eager to assassinate/slaughter etc those they disagree with.
I wonder who are you talking about… because MLs are not what you claim they are.
it’s all socialism to me
You seem to have a very small and limited world view
the world is much more simple when your head isn’t filled with garbage propaganda
and how do you know what you’re spouting isn’t propaganda?
Can I just say, I love the immediate response by admins. I didn’t even see the other posts before this one.
the comments, man. you people are a bunch of maoists
some of you need to stop calling everything you don’t like a nazi
Pretty bold comment considering many of the people are actual swastika-waving Nazis. Stop defending them.
I’ll defend anyone’s right to free speech. Doesn’t mean I agree with them.
Their speech hinders the speech of others, particularly the minorities they are violent against. Therefore, allowing them to have a platform goes against free speech. Your right to swing your fist ends at my face.
Their free speech is not being violated, just access to a captive audience.
What you guys over the pond really should learn sometime soon is that free speech doesn’t mean that you can spew any random vile bullshit without repercussions.
In the Fediverse those repercussions are that your audience will be limited to the instance you chose, which honestly considering the content we are talking about is really mild.
Some of the stuff I’ve seen would definitely be illegal in Germany and Austria, and trust me, we have more experience with Nazis than we ever wanted. We have laws in place to at least try to prevent the resurgence of Nazis and this also affects servers like lemmy.world that are hosted at Hetzner in Germany I believe. Not defederating from these people could cause legal repercussions for the server owner and it’s just not worth it, considering the content we are talking about.
Free speech is speech that is protected from government regulation or persecution. This is a private platform, and therefore Nazis and their speech can fuck right off.
So yeah, they are absolutely to spew their hateful speech without legal repercussions, but we absolutely do not have to let them do so here.
Preach my man
i don’t think any of you have so much as peeked over there
Oh I have, actually, and I got to see endless slurs, nazi propaganda images, people calling for the death of minorities, and more. But go off
Consider this-the majority of people aren’t using it incorrectly , just to describe people you like?
what a weird thing to say
oh i’m sorry… you’re actually a patriot and january 6th was a peaceful protest.
I think this reinforces their point. While it’s certainly an extremist group, many of them don’t explicitly identify as Nazis. They are something else that have ideologies that may overlap with Nazis, but it’s incorrect to call all of them Nazis.
It’s important to be accurate and reasonable in these cases. If a group that disagrees with another group makes a claim that is not realistic or simply incorrect, then it makes them less credible, and that weakens their voice.
Additionally, the Nazi party did some nasty, nasty things. If these people are called the literal title of Nazis, then it dilutes the true evil from the history of the real Nazis. You can say they have Nazi-influenced ideologies, or you could call them fascists, but Nazi is a very specific thing.
By the way, Putin overreached the definition of Nazis as a deciding factor in his initial speech about invading Ukraine. I won’t make any commentary on this. Just think about that.
B-but my disagreement is big! They’re clearly fascists.
What if I don’t like Nazis?
Okay, we’ll call it “woke” instead.
Some of you need to get away from the Nazis before they start burning.
activitypub is bad and dumb
I hope the nazis do stay out because I was really excited for voat for about a day until it became nazi town
You can’t hope they stay out. Admins and moderators have to take active steps to push them out. I want to give some kudos to lemmy.world for getting out in front of this, and I want to name and shame sh.itjust.works for having a vote in their agora community almost a week ago and then proceeding to do nothing
Moderating is time consuming, tedious and done by volunteers. I’m not surprised that they get overrun after the latest influx of users.
It’s why my primary instance of beehaw elected to just defederate and sort things out later instead of desperately trying to navigate a flood of scumbags. The key will be implementing better tools and getting more people on board for community curation
Which is why the very first question an instance admin or moderator needs to think about and answer for all to hear is “how will you handle Nazis?”
I received a modest amount of downvotes on the big R for saying something similar.
I also commented (well, asked a rhetorical question but definitely got answers) here a couple of days ago that places that claim to be for free thought and expression tend to be full of either harmful garbage or nonsense conspiracy theories.
All it’s going to take is one instance that isn’t defederated with a jailbait community or someone with a poorly trained militia planning an act of terrorism to get Lemmy or kbin painted with the “great place for pedos” or “Nazi haven” brush.
I think I saw a post about how punk bars have an absolute 0-nazi policy because there isn’t a real between a bar with nazis and a nazi bar. Other people will leave, nazis will realize they’re safe there.
I think the thing that makes lemmy and kbin difficult concepts for normies will also protect it from blanket association with nazis if one instance is infiltrated. Most people don’t fully understand the distinction between the shared protocol and a site’s domain.
People might think “lemmy is full of nazis”, but it won’t mean anything to them if I say i’m hanging out on midwest.social. To them it’ll just sound like a regional blog website.
I was looking forward to Voat but all the hateful/pedo subs migrating to it were bound to turn it into a cesspool.
Sounds a lot like Minds
Wasn’t voat created because reddit was banning hate subs?
No, it was just where the people from those subs decided to go and ruin.
How I felt about Gab until they did the same and quickly. Like the mods and administrators were nazi and racist too.
Except instead of Nazis (?!?!) it’s corporations.
It’s both
Blending of corporate and state power is one of the 14 characteristics
Where is the state power in the fediverse?
That’s frequently the same thing.
Seriously, it’s ridiculous. Why is nobody holding Google accountable for the Holocaust?
Appropriate nickname, I guess… whispering nonsense and trying to corrupt good people.
Did you put a lot of thought into that one?
i believe IBM actually did play a part in the holocaust. Google wasn’t around then
Also Allianz, Audi, BASF, Bayer, Zeiss, Siemens oh and Hugo Boss just to name a few. Were directly involved with Nazis using forced labor among other things. Oh and lets not forget Ford in the USA. Produced vehicles for the Nazis, and openly supported them. Lots of companies still around today got a lovely big kick start because of the Nazis.
More like why aren’t more people holding Facebook accountable for the genocide they aided and abetted. They’re murderously incompetent at best, and global enablers of fascism at worst. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/06/rohingya-sue-facebook-myanmar-genocide-us-uk-legal-action-social-media-violence
Word, I guess. I haven’t thought about Facebook for about a decade or more. Glad to see they are still crashing and burning. Although…normally you’d burn up an evaporate by now. Can we get the MySpace treatment for Facebook already?
Nazi leemings… Go fuck yourself!
Some real controversial hot take right here
It was a play on “nazi punks fuck off” and “Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself”. But have it you’re way.
