I’m definitely not rich. Not by a long shot. I might not be poor, but compared to the rich, I’m very poor.
I feel like, insane statements like “nobody will work if they don’t earn money from it” or similar drivel is entirely derived from the rich asshole capitalists own minds. What they mean to say is that they wouldn’t, and can’t imagine anyone would want to work if not for the accumulation of wealth. They lack imagination.
The key differentiator is that us (relative) poors need to work to live. If we didn’t need to work to live, many still would, simply to help others. I certainly would.
“nobody will work if they don’t earn money from it”
No, it’s just a tautology resulting from how work is defined. Anything you do on your own time (not paid) is by definition not work. It’s a hobby, a chore, volunteering, etc. By contrast, anything you’re paid to do but would stop doing if you stopped being paid is work.
Looking after a sick relative may feel a whole lot like work. The difference is that if you don’t do it, who will? Asking a stranger to care for your relative for free just isn’t done. That’s why it’s work if you’re a hired nurse but not work if it’s your relative and you do it for free.
You can do this exercise with anything. Go to a restaurant and you expect to pay for your food after you eat. Go to eat dinner at your mother-in-law’s place and you don’t expect to pay. In fact, she’d likely be baffled at best and insulted at worst if you tried to pay her for your meal. Cooking food for strangers is work, cooking food for friends and family is not.
Anyway, don’t you think there’s some validity to the original statement? Why would you expect strangers to cook for you and care for your sick relatives for free? Note that even if you’re not paying them but someone else (possibly the state) then it’s still work.
Work (verb): “be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work.”
No mention of compensation or pay.
For your nurse example, I know nurses that would absolutely do it for free, they enjoy working with their patients and helping them.
For me, I work in IT, if I didn’t need to make money to live, I would still do what I do without pay, simply to help others with their complex computer problems.
Just because you don’t “get” it, and/or, can’t understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t something that many of us would take on. A lot of blue collar workers and even many white collar workers (especially non-owner/non-management types), just want to live a life that they can be proud of. We need to earn money to pay for the things that allow us to continue to live, but beyond that, couldn’t give any less of a shit about money.
Your world view is flawed, your understanding of the collective consciousness of workers is incorrect.
The jobs that would have nobody working them, would be jobs that are generally horrible to do. Especially toxic work environments, usually due to bad management. Making people’s lives horrible because you treat them like trash would be a death sentence, because if people don’t need to work for you to live, and you treat them like human garbage, then you will have nobody working for you.
These principles are pretty well founded. There are communities that have survived with little to no money or transactions happening (mainly only when dealing with outsiders), where members of the community do some sort of work for the community (maybe farming, plumbing, electrical, construction, etc) with no direct compensation, and in return, they gain all the benefits of the community. Hot meals, a warm home, etc.
These communes have existed, usually they’re associated with extreme isolation and other such conditions, but they take care of eachother without the need for any monetary system.
In many first world countries, the USA especially, people are isolated from eachother. Each person is so aggressively independent that a monetary system is basically a requirement to answer the question of “what’s in it for me?” In a more community focused setting, you pay it forward at every step. You do whatever work for the people in the community, and the community at large “pays” you back with their services and hospitality. This is not a question, it is an expectation of such members of a community like that.
For my work, my “boss”/manager is basically setting up and managing systems that I can use to help people with their issues, so I can focus on what I’m good at. Aside from the money that changes hands because we all need to pay rent and buy food, our jobs wouldn’t change under a system that has no monetary system. There’s still a demand and we fulfill that demand as best we can.
We’ll never get to the level of community we would need to get away from money systems unless that money system entirely crashes, and people keep doing their jobs for free to make sure that everything doesn’t go down with the money system.
Our money system, with the global banks and fiat currency, is basically a bubble. It is obligated to continue to grow or it will collapse. I won’t go into detail as to why, since this post is long enough, but needless to say, that kind of system is destined to fail since continual growth indefinitely is an unsustainable system. It’s only a matter of time. One decent documentary I know of on the subject, for further learning, is called “money as debt”. Take a look if you want to know more about our collective monetary systems. (Most of the world is using the same concepts and ideas in their money systems though that specific one, IIRC, is focused on the American money system)
What you’re talking about, with families, communes, or other small communities, IS STILL WORK. It might not be compensated with money but it is compensated, usually with social capital or reputation. I do things for you and then maybe some time in the future you return the favour. All money does is allow me to (pardon the pun) cash in that favour on my own terms and potentially with someone other than the person I originally worked for.
What’s the problem with these informal economies (favours for favours)? They do not scale! As soon as the community is large enough that not everyone knows each other (the networks grow too large) then you run into the problem of being unable to punish free riders. If you do a favour for uncle Ted and then later uncle Ted refuses to lift a finger for you, you can punish him by telling the rest of the family that he’s selfish. However, you walking into uncle Ted’s office and telling his boss (who doesn’t know you) about it is unlikely to go over well.
“If I didn’t need to make money to live” is a non-starter. If you built a huge society with free food, housing, health care, internet and all that for everyone (all needs met) then you’d get millions of people choosing to smoke cannabis and play video games all day. The only way to get “free everything” society to work is with extremely small groups where reputation and social capital stand in for monetary compensation.
Lastly, I need to make a point about the individual and their choice to work for free for others or not. Take the example of an artist (say, a digital painter). They may be happy to stream on Twitch and give away all the art they create for free (with their Patreon revenue covering their living expenses). However, how likely do you think they are to take on a huge commissioned video game project for free? I’ll tell you: extremely unlikely. The free art is the art that the artist wants to produce. Commissioned art that follows narrow requirements for (say) character designs, settings, etc. is completely different: it’s work because it’s not the kind of art the artist chose to make.
Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.
I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you’re instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you’re there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn’t be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn’t need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn’t necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier’s and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up “unemployed” (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare…
People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they’re forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don’t have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.
As much as I don’t agree with you, I understand what you’re driving at. You’re stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don’t freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I’m not angry about it, it’s a fact. All I’m trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.
Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It’s fine. I don’t take offense. I know it won’t happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won’t allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our “jobs” which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.
I’m not hellbent on punishing people and I’m not lacking in compassion. I have a great deal of compassion for good people who are genuinely suffering and worse off through no fault of their own. I have been volunteering for 7 years as a tutor for newcomer families (mostly refugee families from Somalia).
These families are far from what I’d call free riders. They are tenacious and eager to contribute to society. They also happen to have a very strong community, unlike the neighbourhood I live in (more on that later).
The ruling elite aren’t the reason it won’t happen. The disappearance of local community is. I’m only 40 years old and yet I’ve noticed a DRAMATIC change in the neighbourhood where I grew up (and still live). When I was a kid everyone was kind and friendly. There were tons of other kids around like me.
Now there are hardly any kids around. I go for a walk and all I see are people my age or older, usually walking a dog with a scowl on their face. Society’s institutions are gone or moribund. Hardly anyone is friendly. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and treating their neighbours with cold suspicion.
This isn’t just my personal feelings or my weird neighbourhood. It’s everywhere and people are talking about it, if not always in the spotlight.
There are just so many people who are only in it for themselves and wealth has little to do with it. It’s the lack of community bonds. I would love to hear how a change in the political system could fix that but I won’t hold my breath for it to happen.
We’re basically the same age. That’s entertaining to me. I can’t really explain why, it just is.
I want to strongly express that I do understand where you’re coming from. I get it.
I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.
At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That’s fine, it’s what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.
I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.
I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I’m sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.
At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You’re articulate and well spoken and you’ve been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.
I’m definitely not rich. Not by a long shot. I might not be poor, but compared to the rich, I’m very poor.
I feel like, insane statements like “nobody will work if they don’t earn money from it” or similar drivel is entirely derived from the rich asshole capitalists own minds. What they mean to say is that they wouldn’t, and can’t imagine anyone would want to work if not for the accumulation of wealth. They lack imagination.
The key differentiator is that us (relative) poors need to work to live. If we didn’t need to work to live, many still would, simply to help others. I certainly would.
No, it’s just a tautology resulting from how work is defined. Anything you do on your own time (not paid) is by definition not work. It’s a hobby, a chore, volunteering, etc. By contrast, anything you’re paid to do but would stop doing if you stopped being paid is work.
Looking after a sick relative may feel a whole lot like work. The difference is that if you don’t do it, who will? Asking a stranger to care for your relative for free just isn’t done. That’s why it’s work if you’re a hired nurse but not work if it’s your relative and you do it for free.
You can do this exercise with anything. Go to a restaurant and you expect to pay for your food after you eat. Go to eat dinner at your mother-in-law’s place and you don’t expect to pay. In fact, she’d likely be baffled at best and insulted at worst if you tried to pay her for your meal. Cooking food for strangers is work, cooking food for friends and family is not.
Anyway, don’t you think there’s some validity to the original statement? Why would you expect strangers to cook for you and care for your sick relatives for free? Note that even if you’re not paying them but someone else (possibly the state) then it’s still work.
Work (verb): “be engaged in physical or mental activity in order to achieve a result; do work.”
No mention of compensation or pay.
For your nurse example, I know nurses that would absolutely do it for free, they enjoy working with their patients and helping them.
For me, I work in IT, if I didn’t need to make money to live, I would still do what I do without pay, simply to help others with their complex computer problems.
Just because you don’t “get” it, and/or, can’t understand it, doesn’t mean it isn’t something that many of us would take on. A lot of blue collar workers and even many white collar workers (especially non-owner/non-management types), just want to live a life that they can be proud of. We need to earn money to pay for the things that allow us to continue to live, but beyond that, couldn’t give any less of a shit about money.
Your world view is flawed, your understanding of the collective consciousness of workers is incorrect.
The jobs that would have nobody working them, would be jobs that are generally horrible to do. Especially toxic work environments, usually due to bad management. Making people’s lives horrible because you treat them like trash would be a death sentence, because if people don’t need to work for you to live, and you treat them like human garbage, then you will have nobody working for you.
These principles are pretty well founded. There are communities that have survived with little to no money or transactions happening (mainly only when dealing with outsiders), where members of the community do some sort of work for the community (maybe farming, plumbing, electrical, construction, etc) with no direct compensation, and in return, they gain all the benefits of the community. Hot meals, a warm home, etc.
These communes have existed, usually they’re associated with extreme isolation and other such conditions, but they take care of eachother without the need for any monetary system.
In many first world countries, the USA especially, people are isolated from eachother. Each person is so aggressively independent that a monetary system is basically a requirement to answer the question of “what’s in it for me?” In a more community focused setting, you pay it forward at every step. You do whatever work for the people in the community, and the community at large “pays” you back with their services and hospitality. This is not a question, it is an expectation of such members of a community like that.
For my work, my “boss”/manager is basically setting up and managing systems that I can use to help people with their issues, so I can focus on what I’m good at. Aside from the money that changes hands because we all need to pay rent and buy food, our jobs wouldn’t change under a system that has no monetary system. There’s still a demand and we fulfill that demand as best we can.
We’ll never get to the level of community we would need to get away from money systems unless that money system entirely crashes, and people keep doing their jobs for free to make sure that everything doesn’t go down with the money system.
Our money system, with the global banks and fiat currency, is basically a bubble. It is obligated to continue to grow or it will collapse. I won’t go into detail as to why, since this post is long enough, but needless to say, that kind of system is destined to fail since continual growth indefinitely is an unsustainable system. It’s only a matter of time. One decent documentary I know of on the subject, for further learning, is called “money as debt”. Take a look if you want to know more about our collective monetary systems. (Most of the world is using the same concepts and ideas in their money systems though that specific one, IIRC, is focused on the American money system)
What you’re talking about, with families, communes, or other small communities, IS STILL WORK. It might not be compensated with money but it is compensated, usually with social capital or reputation. I do things for you and then maybe some time in the future you return the favour. All money does is allow me to (pardon the pun) cash in that favour on my own terms and potentially with someone other than the person I originally worked for.
What’s the problem with these informal economies (favours for favours)? They do not scale! As soon as the community is large enough that not everyone knows each other (the networks grow too large) then you run into the problem of being unable to punish free riders. If you do a favour for uncle Ted and then later uncle Ted refuses to lift a finger for you, you can punish him by telling the rest of the family that he’s selfish. However, you walking into uncle Ted’s office and telling his boss (who doesn’t know you) about it is unlikely to go over well.
“If I didn’t need to make money to live” is a non-starter. If you built a huge society with free food, housing, health care, internet and all that for everyone (all needs met) then you’d get millions of people choosing to smoke cannabis and play video games all day. The only way to get “free everything” society to work is with extremely small groups where reputation and social capital stand in for monetary compensation.
Lastly, I need to make a point about the individual and their choice to work for free for others or not. Take the example of an artist (say, a digital painter). They may be happy to stream on Twitch and give away all the art they create for free (with their Patreon revenue covering their living expenses). However, how likely do you think they are to take on a huge commissioned video game project for free? I’ll tell you: extremely unlikely. The free art is the art that the artist wants to produce. Commissioned art that follows narrow requirements for (say) character designs, settings, etc. is completely different: it’s work because it’s not the kind of art the artist chose to make.
Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.
I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you’re instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you’re there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn’t be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn’t need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn’t necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier’s and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up “unemployed” (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare…
People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they’re forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don’t have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.
As much as I don’t agree with you, I understand what you’re driving at. You’re stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don’t freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I’m not angry about it, it’s a fact. All I’m trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.
Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It’s fine. I don’t take offense. I know it won’t happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won’t allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our “jobs” which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.
It won’t happen, they won’t let it.
I’m not hellbent on punishing people and I’m not lacking in compassion. I have a great deal of compassion for good people who are genuinely suffering and worse off through no fault of their own. I have been volunteering for 7 years as a tutor for newcomer families (mostly refugee families from Somalia).
These families are far from what I’d call free riders. They are tenacious and eager to contribute to society. They also happen to have a very strong community, unlike the neighbourhood I live in (more on that later).
The ruling elite aren’t the reason it won’t happen. The disappearance of local community is. I’m only 40 years old and yet I’ve noticed a DRAMATIC change in the neighbourhood where I grew up (and still live). When I was a kid everyone was kind and friendly. There were tons of other kids around like me.
Now there are hardly any kids around. I go for a walk and all I see are people my age or older, usually walking a dog with a scowl on their face. Society’s institutions are gone or moribund. Hardly anyone is friendly. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and treating their neighbours with cold suspicion.
This isn’t just my personal feelings or my weird neighbourhood. It’s everywhere and people are talking about it, if not always in the spotlight.
There are just so many people who are only in it for themselves and wealth has little to do with it. It’s the lack of community bonds. I would love to hear how a change in the political system could fix that but I won’t hold my breath for it to happen.
We’re basically the same age. That’s entertaining to me. I can’t really explain why, it just is.
I want to strongly express that I do understand where you’re coming from. I get it.
I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.
At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That’s fine, it’s what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.
I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.
I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I’m sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.
At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You’re articulate and well spoken and you’ve been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.
Be well.