Seriously, what is the real-world impact here? Imagine for a second that some miracle vegetarian steak could be confused for a beef one. Why does it matter? Someone might accidentally eat a vegetable?
I’m sorry but you have no issues with a product label being misleading as long it’s pushing people to eat vegetables?
Would you have the same opinion if it was an animal steak being sold to you as “Vegan steak” ?
Point is, we don’t want misleading names for products. Imo people are actively trying to make this topic a political one when it’s a consumer protection issue.
If it’s not a steak, call it something else. It will be clearer for the consumer.
In the first case that you’re replying to, we’re using the modifier “vegetarian” in front of the word steak to note why it’s different than a regular steak. In your example, you’re putting “vegan” in front of steak and lying, because it’s not vegan. How many people are actually getting confused by a vegetarian product made to replace a meat-based one, especially considering the veggie one is likely more expensive? Meanwhile, how much more likely do you think it is that the meat and dairy industries would rather there just not be any perceived alternative to their products at all? Because that one seems far more likely to me. I know nothing of the politics of France, but those industries have tried and are trying the same tactic over here in the US.
I definitely think people can and WILL get confused by purposefully confusing packaging.
If the law says you can use vegetarian steak the producer will put an ultra large font STEAK and a minuscule “vegetarian” in front.
So laws that ban explicit sentences are absolutely useless and will be avoided in a matter of minutes.
I’m all for french people eating less meat but it will never work by “tricking” the consumers by using meat terms for vegetarian food.
And I’m not gatekeeping the meat words for it. I just think we can easily find new words for vegan products and that’s fine and avoid getting misleading products.
Personally, I have yet to come across that hypothetical package. But if that’s truly your concern, why not make standards around font size instead of the words themselves? There are laws around this kind of thing for lending rates and such to make sure that you’re not tricked into a bad loan with the “fine print”. What I see this law trying to do for the meat industry is to make it seem as though there’s no substitute for the product they offer, even though there is. It’s different, but it’s an alternative that they’d rather brush under the rug.
Oh I’m sure the incredibly powerful lobby you are speaking about will be totally fine with a law dictating the way they style and display their packaging.
Also the pure nightmare of implementing in law what you say for a wide range of products. Let’s say I want to sell an individual vegan “steak” but I can’t put a large packaging just for the label ?
Also, the purposefully misleading labels in the food industry is already pretty common so I think I’m not exaggerating when I say than any gap in the law will be abused.
And it’s again extremely difficult to protect one single word without it’s context.
For instance, in steaks we usually try to have the amount of fat in it because it gives you an indication of the amount of actual meat in your steak. Because I could wildly vary the amount and sell you 0.1% meat steaks that is actually vegetables which is much cheaper. It is not the first time that the food industry has tried to sell litteral fake meat. It’s an expensive product and if you can make it for cheap and keep at the same price it’s obviously worth it.
What I genuinely don’t understand is why vegan products are trying so hard to look like non vegan products?
Is it important for a bunch of vegetables composition to be called a steak ? If anything I would think a vegan product would want to stand out from standard meat ?
You won’t convert to veganism people by selling them fake steaks. It doesn’t work.
You achieve so much more teaching kids that eatings meals without meat is fine and we are starting to do it in schools.
But thinking someone that ate meat all his life will become vegan because he found this wonderful vegan steak is imo quite delusional and missing the point.
Food industry wants to sell you a product not matter how. Less restrictions for them is not a good news.
Oh I’m sure the incredibly powerful lobby you are speaking about will be totally fine with a law dictating the way they style and display their packaging.
I don’t care what they’re okay with. They’re okay with passing this BS law as though it’s solving their fictional problem, because the actual problem is that they’re losing money to alternatives people are choosing on purpose.
What I genuinely don’t understand is why vegan products are trying so hard to look like non vegan products?
For the same reason there’s non-alcoholic beer. It’s accepted as a social norm that creates what Warren Buffet would call a “moat” around their business, like the barbecue. If everyone else is eating burgers and hot dogs but you have a moral issue with eating meat, you can still partake. Maybe you hate that so much of our food comes from animals but you really like cheese, so you’ll deal with something that gets 80% of the way there. Beyond and Impossible are two businesses that exist specifically because people care about the burger taste but would love to do so without killing a cow to get there.
Is it important for a bunch of vegetables composition to be called a steak ? If anything I would think a vegan product would want to stand out from standard meat ?
It’s important that they know they’re getting something that approximates a steak, and it stands out by putting the word “vegan” or “plant-based” or “vegetarian” in front of it, but this legislation hurts that.
You won’t convert to veganism people by selling them fake steaks. It doesn’t work.
I don’t think it was ever their business model to get people who wanted a meat steak to buy the veggie version. But it is there for people who want to be vegetarian and would miss being able to eat a steak.
One of the biggest German meat production companies started introducing vegetarian and vegan products 10 years ago - last year they made more profit from then than from their meat branch and are remodelling meat-processing factories for replacements - it’s just like everywhere - if you don’t lead or follow the change you’ll have to try to stop change itself
The shitty thing is that this culture war against replacements is also majorly fucking up our chances to combat climate change as a change away from the meat-heavy diet most people have on a population level would be one of the most effective changes we could make as a society to give us a better chance…
I really don’t see the problem with honesty in product marketing, aside from the fact that it should be 100% and not limited to artificial meat products. That said, a ban doesn’t seem like the best idea, because it limits your ability to describe the product. How do you describe artificial spare ribs concisely, without being able to say the words “spare” and “ribs” together?
And just because artificial meat isn’t indistinguishable from the real thing at the moment doesn’t mean:
Manufacturers aren’t dressing up the packaging in a way that makes it difficult to tell the difference. And not even necessarily in order to be deceitful, but rather to make it look appealing, and get more people to try it.
When you’re tired, and hungry, and just want to get back home from a shopping trip, you accidentally choose the wrong package because the identifiers don’t stand out sufficiently. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve accidentally bought something with artificial sweetener, after staring right at the two options, and registering that I don’t want the one.
I wish we could just get past the loud, over the top design language of literally everything. Every time I leave the house, it’s an assault on my senses, everywhere I turn.
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I’m sorry but you have no issues with a product label being misleading as long it’s pushing people to eat vegetables?
Would you have the same opinion if it was an animal steak being sold to you as “Vegan steak” ?
Point is, we don’t want misleading names for products. Imo people are actively trying to make this topic a political one when it’s a consumer protection issue.
If it’s not a steak, call it something else. It will be clearer for the consumer.
In the first case that you’re replying to, we’re using the modifier “vegetarian” in front of the word steak to note why it’s different than a regular steak. In your example, you’re putting “vegan” in front of steak and lying, because it’s not vegan. How many people are actually getting confused by a vegetarian product made to replace a meat-based one, especially considering the veggie one is likely more expensive? Meanwhile, how much more likely do you think it is that the meat and dairy industries would rather there just not be any perceived alternative to their products at all? Because that one seems far more likely to me. I know nothing of the politics of France, but those industries have tried and are trying the same tactic over here in the US.
I definitely think people can and WILL get confused by purposefully confusing packaging.
If the law says you can use vegetarian steak the producer will put an ultra large font STEAK and a minuscule “vegetarian” in front.
So laws that ban explicit sentences are absolutely useless and will be avoided in a matter of minutes.
I’m all for french people eating less meat but it will never work by “tricking” the consumers by using meat terms for vegetarian food.
And I’m not gatekeeping the meat words for it. I just think we can easily find new words for vegan products and that’s fine and avoid getting misleading products.
Personally, I have yet to come across that hypothetical package. But if that’s truly your concern, why not make standards around font size instead of the words themselves? There are laws around this kind of thing for lending rates and such to make sure that you’re not tricked into a bad loan with the “fine print”. What I see this law trying to do for the meat industry is to make it seem as though there’s no substitute for the product they offer, even though there is. It’s different, but it’s an alternative that they’d rather brush under the rug.
Oh I’m sure the incredibly powerful lobby you are speaking about will be totally fine with a law dictating the way they style and display their packaging.
Also the pure nightmare of implementing in law what you say for a wide range of products. Let’s say I want to sell an individual vegan “steak” but I can’t put a large packaging just for the label ?
Also, the purposefully misleading labels in the food industry is already pretty common so I think I’m not exaggerating when I say than any gap in the law will be abused.
And it’s again extremely difficult to protect one single word without it’s context.
For instance, in steaks we usually try to have the amount of fat in it because it gives you an indication of the amount of actual meat in your steak. Because I could wildly vary the amount and sell you 0.1% meat steaks that is actually vegetables which is much cheaper. It is not the first time that the food industry has tried to sell litteral fake meat. It’s an expensive product and if you can make it for cheap and keep at the same price it’s obviously worth it.
What I genuinely don’t understand is why vegan products are trying so hard to look like non vegan products?
Is it important for a bunch of vegetables composition to be called a steak ? If anything I would think a vegan product would want to stand out from standard meat ?
You won’t convert to veganism people by selling them fake steaks. It doesn’t work.
You achieve so much more teaching kids that eatings meals without meat is fine and we are starting to do it in schools.
But thinking someone that ate meat all his life will become vegan because he found this wonderful vegan steak is imo quite delusional and missing the point.
Food industry wants to sell you a product not matter how. Less restrictions for them is not a good news.
I don’t care what they’re okay with. They’re okay with passing this BS law as though it’s solving their fictional problem, because the actual problem is that they’re losing money to alternatives people are choosing on purpose.
For the same reason there’s non-alcoholic beer. It’s accepted as a social norm that creates what Warren Buffet would call a “moat” around their business, like the barbecue. If everyone else is eating burgers and hot dogs but you have a moral issue with eating meat, you can still partake. Maybe you hate that so much of our food comes from animals but you really like cheese, so you’ll deal with something that gets 80% of the way there. Beyond and Impossible are two businesses that exist specifically because people care about the burger taste but would love to do so without killing a cow to get there.
It’s important that they know they’re getting something that approximates a steak, and it stands out by putting the word “vegan” or “plant-based” or “vegetarian” in front of it, but this legislation hurts that.
I don’t think it was ever their business model to get people who wanted a meat steak to buy the veggie version. But it is there for people who want to be vegetarian and would miss being able to eat a steak.
The point is the meat industry is afraid of competition.
One of the biggest German meat production companies started introducing vegetarian and vegan products 10 years ago - last year they made more profit from then than from their meat branch and are remodelling meat-processing factories for replacements - it’s just like everywhere - if you don’t lead or follow the change you’ll have to try to stop change itself
The shitty thing is that this culture war against replacements is also majorly fucking up our chances to combat climate change as a change away from the meat-heavy diet most people have on a population level would be one of the most effective changes we could make as a society to give us a better chance…
But saving the planet might slightly cut the rate of increase in profit for these companies.
Trading a 78% increase for 76%, but also the planet gets to live, simply isn’t worth it to them.
I really don’t see the problem with honesty in product marketing, aside from the fact that it should be 100% and not limited to artificial meat products. That said, a ban doesn’t seem like the best idea, because it limits your ability to describe the product. How do you describe artificial spare ribs concisely, without being able to say the words “spare” and “ribs” together?
And just because artificial meat isn’t indistinguishable from the real thing at the moment doesn’t mean:
I wish we could just get past the loud, over the top design language of literally everything. Every time I leave the house, it’s an assault on my senses, everywhere I turn.