So genocidal slaughter then, sounds about what one would expect.
An invasion would bring heavy casualties on both sides and questions about whether Israel can devise an exit strategy for the conflict
I found this a bit amusing in a grim way, in what universe has Israel ever indicated that they have or want an exit plan from Gaza or apartheid occupation? They want to own Gaza/Palestine, theynow have an excuse to rampage and slaughter on a new level so they’re taking it.
If being attacked entitles one to retaliate with violence, then Israel has earned the attack that happened by miles.
There has been none of this kind of outrage when Israeli MPs and soldiers brutalize Palestinians, kill international reporters, bomb news stations and residential centers, indiscrimnately kill women and children.
If you don’t believe that violence warrants violent and wanton reprisal, then you should be against the Israelis laying siege to Gaza.
Here we go again, This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn’t justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that’s it.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.
If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They’ve refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.
We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.
And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.
Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.
Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.
But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.
How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.
So Israel is justified in punishing civilians indiscriminately, en mass, but the same brutality from Hamas is unacceptable to you. Think that over to yourself.
If what you’re arguing for Israel is true, that they have a right to starve and kill children because of an attack, then why have Palestinians no earned that right? What makes them lesser of human rights in your mind?
Perhaps Hamas should call all their brutality “unintentional” and that will make it ok in your eyes? “Whoopsie, precisely headshot a kid. It’s the terrorists fault.”
If you’re willing to hold all of Gaza accountable for Hamas, why would all Israeli’s not be held accountable for their own brutal military? Israel is even supposedly a democracy.
These examples are from the last year, but this is not some new phenomenon. Israel has a long history of brutalizing the Palestinian people and assassinating any leaders that appear.
Imagine if Hamas went into a Jewish synagogue and treated people like this: [1], [2], [3], [4] But these are Israeli police heros fighting a brave battle against unarmed women and old men human animals, right?
How quickly was the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh swept under the rug? An unarmed journalist, shot in the back of the head by IDF. No one gives a shit.
So as Gazans and Palestinians get starved and bombed out of existence over the course of decades, tell me why they have less human rights than what you afford Israelis? You cannot argue from a humanitarian perspective for Israel and then completely flip your script when it comes to the human rights of Palestinians. You cannot hold Palestinian children to account for the actions of Hamas and then not do the same for Israeli civilians and the IDF. And if that’s unpalatable to you, perhaps consider revising your blind support for Israel’s brutal apartheid tactics.
I don’t know why this topic breaks people’s brains so hard, people will just give Israel a complete blank check to literally do whatever they want for 60 years but as soon as their chickens come home to roost it’s the Palestinian civilians fault. Suddenly they simply won’t draw any kind of distinction between Hamas and literal children when it comes to who is justifiable to punish.
And then the only way anyone can address me raising these criticisms is to assert that I’m arguing Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. But who is actually at more of risk of being wiped off the face of the earth? The Israelis with their unlimited global support, wealth and Iron Dome? Or the Gazans who are trapped in Gaza and can literally have their vital resources cut off at a moments notice?
You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.
So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.
They haven’t.
Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.
But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.
“Withdrawal” can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.
You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that’s very much not leaving people alone.
Yeah, it’s pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)
Israel can’t force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can’t force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.
Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn’t do that, there wouldn’t be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn’t limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.
When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they “achieved” Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they’re not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?
Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren’t the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don’t have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don’t know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.
That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.
Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.
Every restriction also breeds resentment and thus increases violence and terrorism.
There’s one question I want to ask here, and it’s not an easy one, and Israel will take a long time to come to a national consensus on it: Was it just money that Israel funnelled to Hamas to weaken the PLO, or also fighters?
Once you understand how you created that monster you’ll also understand how to starve it. Minds can be changed, the mechanics of conflict and conflict resolution can’t.
Yep. It’s a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.
It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone’s efforts towards peace. It’s an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦
Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?
So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn’t. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They’re not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It’s an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.
Don’t give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.
But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants
Israel is militarily, technologically, and economically far superior. That means you have options that Palestinians who want to de-escalate don’t have, thus the ball is in your court. Or, well, practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court. That’s not a special yardstick we carved just for you, it’s not about “who started it” or “who did worst” but “who is in a better position to end this”.
Also y’all speak English and are on the internet. I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.
How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power?
Hamas has more than one wing, all dependent on each other, and one of them you can right-out supplant. Heck it even meshes with security concerns: Instead of saying “Gaza can’t have concrete because Hamas” say “We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses”
More generally speaking: You will need to be able to take a punch while showing that you can be an asset to your region of the world meaning internally, you’ll have to make sure that forces who right-out enjoy having an external enemy to fuel their eternal war have absolutely no influence. Doesn’t even need much, all the civil society needs to do is to be receptive enough to understand that Kahanites and Nazis are the same shit with a different coat of paint so that the Israeli Antifa will come back out of exile – Berlin, I know, of all places. It’s an excuse for a city they could’ve at least chosen Hamburg but I digress.
It won’t be easy and it won’t be quick, trust isn’t built in a fortnight. There’s no quick solutions, there’s only approaches which breed resentment and those who don’t, and one kind is perpetuating hatred, the other isn’t. I know this kind of stuff can sound like platitudes but it really isn’t. Being disciplined in that regard is the only way.
More concretely, right now, don’t fucking blow the Saudi Arabia deal. If you need to stop the offensive to do that, do it.
practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court… “who is in a better position to end this”<
Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this.
No country alone can make peace when their enemy refuses to. That refusal is the ball that Hamas holds, the ball that Palestinian militants held before Israel existed as a modern state, the ball that Arab militants held when the word “Palestinian” most often referred to Jews.
This crap about Israel holding “all the power”, it’s just not true.
I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.<
It’s something we could agree on, you know. Not sure why you wrote this? Do you think I’m unaware of it or how it contributed to the election of Hamas in 2006? I lose count of how many years into his four year term Abbas is, working on 19 years now I think. We could talk about how much current violence in the West Bank is Hamas trying to undermine Fatah there and gain power for themselves.
“We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses<
If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill. What could possibly go wrong? 🤦
If only it were that simple holds for the rest of your propositions. If only.
If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill.
Who the fuck said anything about neglecting security and being naive?
Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this.
No. That’s an excuse to avoid being creative and if you’d reflect about it you’d see it. It’s social conditioning saying “we’re the victims, always”.
What’s your plan for the future? Continue the Otzma Yehudit way of “antagonising until they give up”? That’s what got you into this position in the first place. It’s the reason the IDF wasn’t near Gaza and Hamas saw an opening because the IDF was busy in the west bank backing settlers harassing Palestinians. Realise that there’s portions of the Israeli society who want this to continue, whether they admit it or not, because it is convenient for them, because a scared populace wouldn’t vote for them. Don’t be complicit in that.
So genocidal slaughter then, sounds about what one would expect.
I found this a bit amusing in a grim way, in what universe has Israel ever indicated that they have or want an exit plan from Gaza or apartheid occupation? They want to own Gaza/Palestine, theynow have an excuse to rampage and slaughter on a new level so they’re taking it.
You mean like the rampage and slaughter last weekend?
If being attacked entitles one to retaliate with violence, then Israel has earned the attack that happened by miles.
There has been none of this kind of outrage when Israeli MPs and soldiers brutalize Palestinians, kill international reporters, bomb news stations and residential centers, indiscrimnately kill women and children.
If you don’t believe that violence warrants violent and wanton reprisal, then you should be against the Israelis laying siege to Gaza.
Here we go again, This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn’t justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that’s it.
And yet there’s justification for what Israel does, Israel who has all the power here. I can’t speak further with someone this hypocritical.
Israel has the right to exist and defend itself. I feel sorry for you, but most of all I feel sorry for those that will spill blood.
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You talk about children? Really? When Israeli children were slaughtered in their beds? Go away man.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.
If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They’ve refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.
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We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.
And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.
Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ ↩︎
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 ↩︎
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-palestinian-enclave-under-israeli-assault ↩︎
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So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.
Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.
But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.
How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.
So Israel is justified in punishing civilians indiscriminately, en mass, but the same brutality from Hamas is unacceptable to you. Think that over to yourself.
If what you’re arguing for Israel is true, that they have a right to starve and kill children because of an attack, then why have Palestinians no earned that right? What makes them lesser of human rights in your mind?
Jenin: Palestinian boy killed during Israeli assault was unarmed
Israeli military admits killing Palestinian toddler by mistake, closes initial investigation
Israeli military admits shooting 16-year-old Palestinian girl, calls it ‘unintentional’
Perhaps Hamas should call all their brutality “unintentional” and that will make it ok in your eyes? “Whoopsie, precisely headshot a kid. It’s the terrorists fault.” If you’re willing to hold all of Gaza accountable for Hamas, why would all Israeli’s not be held accountable for their own brutal military? Israel is even supposedly a democracy.
These examples are from the last year, but this is not some new phenomenon. Israel has a long history of brutalizing the Palestinian people and assassinating any leaders that appear.
Imagine if Hamas went into a Jewish synagogue and treated people like this: [1], [2], [3], [4] But these are Israeli police heros fighting a brave battle against
unarmed women and old menhuman animals, right?How quickly was the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh swept under the rug? An unarmed journalist, shot in the back of the head by IDF. No one gives a shit.
So as Gazans and Palestinians get starved and bombed out of existence over the course of decades, tell me why they have less human rights than what you afford Israelis? You cannot argue from a humanitarian perspective for Israel and then completely flip your script when it comes to the human rights of Palestinians. You cannot hold Palestinian children to account for the actions of Hamas and then not do the same for Israeli civilians and the IDF. And if that’s unpalatable to you, perhaps consider revising your blind support for Israel’s brutal apartheid tactics.
I don’t know why this topic breaks people’s brains so hard, people will just give Israel a complete blank check to literally do whatever they want for 60 years but as soon as their chickens come home to roost it’s the Palestinian civilians fault. Suddenly they simply won’t draw any kind of distinction between Hamas and literal children when it comes to who is justifiable to punish.
And then the only way anyone can address me raising these criticisms is to assert that I’m arguing Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. But who is actually at more of risk of being wiped off the face of the earth? The Israelis with their unlimited global support, wealth and Iron Dome? Or the Gazans who are trapped in Gaza and can literally have their vital resources cut off at a moments notice?
You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.
So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.
They haven’t.
Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.
But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.
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“Withdrawal” can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.
You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that’s very much not leaving people alone.
Yeah, it’s pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)
Israel can’t force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can’t force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.
Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn’t do that, there wouldn’t be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn’t limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.
When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they “achieved” Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they’re not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?
Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren’t the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don’t have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don’t know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.
That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.
Their role in all of this MUST be understood.
Every restriction also breeds resentment and thus increases violence and terrorism.
There’s one question I want to ask here, and it’s not an easy one, and Israel will take a long time to come to a national consensus on it: Was it just money that Israel funnelled to Hamas to weaken the PLO, or also fighters?
Once you understand how you created that monster you’ll also understand how to starve it. Minds can be changed, the mechanics of conflict and conflict resolution can’t.
Yep. It’s a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.
It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone’s efforts towards peace. It’s an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦
Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?
So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn’t. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They’re not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It’s an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.
Don’t give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.
Israel is militarily, technologically, and economically far superior. That means you have options that Palestinians who want to de-escalate don’t have, thus the ball is in your court. Or, well, practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court. That’s not a special yardstick we carved just for you, it’s not about “who started it” or “who did worst” but “who is in a better position to end this”.
Also y’all speak English and are on the internet. I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.
Hamas has more than one wing, all dependent on each other, and one of them you can right-out supplant. Heck it even meshes with security concerns: Instead of saying “Gaza can’t have concrete because Hamas” say “We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses”
More generally speaking: You will need to be able to take a punch while showing that you can be an asset to your region of the world meaning internally, you’ll have to make sure that forces who right-out enjoy having an external enemy to fuel their eternal war have absolutely no influence. Doesn’t even need much, all the civil society needs to do is to be receptive enough to understand that Kahanites and Nazis are the same shit with a different coat of paint so that the Israeli Antifa will come back out of exile – Berlin, I know, of all places. It’s an excuse for a city they could’ve at least chosen Hamburg but I digress.
It won’t be easy and it won’t be quick, trust isn’t built in a fortnight. There’s no quick solutions, there’s only approaches which breed resentment and those who don’t, and one kind is perpetuating hatred, the other isn’t. I know this kind of stuff can sound like platitudes but it really isn’t. Being disciplined in that regard is the only way.
More concretely, right now, don’t fucking blow the Saudi Arabia deal. If you need to stop the offensive to do that, do it.
Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this. No country alone can make peace when their enemy refuses to. That refusal is the ball that Hamas holds, the ball that Palestinian militants held before Israel existed as a modern state, the ball that Arab militants held when the word “Palestinian” most often referred to Jews.
This crap about Israel holding “all the power”, it’s just not true.
It’s something we could agree on, you know. Not sure why you wrote this? Do you think I’m unaware of it or how it contributed to the election of Hamas in 2006? I lose count of how many years into his four year term Abbas is, working on 19 years now I think. We could talk about how much current violence in the West Bank is Hamas trying to undermine Fatah there and gain power for themselves.
If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill. What could possibly go wrong? 🤦
If only it were that simple holds for the rest of your propositions. If only.
Who the fuck said anything about neglecting security and being naive?
No. That’s an excuse to avoid being creative and if you’d reflect about it you’d see it. It’s social conditioning saying “we’re the victims, always”.
What’s your plan for the future? Continue the Otzma Yehudit way of “antagonising until they give up”? That’s what got you into this position in the first place. It’s the reason the IDF wasn’t near Gaza and Hamas saw an opening because the IDF was busy in the west bank backing settlers harassing Palestinians. Realise that there’s portions of the Israeli society who want this to continue, whether they admit it or not, because it is convenient for them, because a scared populace wouldn’t vote for them. Don’t be complicit in that.