if the revenue from the tax is used for the UBI, there is no change in the money supply compared to the current situation. So, can you explain where the inflation you’re predicting is coming from?
LVT doesn’t really address the fundamental class antagonism between landlords and tenants.
Let’s say landlords pay more taxes because of LVT, and that goes to UBI. Landlords can just jack up the prices to make their money back. The only people who benefit are people who don’t rent.
Also geoanarchism doesn’t sound like anarchism, unless we are being pejorative toward anarchism.
I agree that LVT doesn’t address the fundamental class antagonism. It only addresses economic rent.
Landlords can’t just jack up prices. LVT doesn’t distort prices because the supply of land is perfectly inelastic - the revenue comes entirely out of landlord surplus. UBIs so far haven’t caused significant inflation, which makes sense if the total amount distributed equals the total amount taxed.
Okay, imagine a hypothetical. You’re a landlord with 90 percent occupancy rate across 100 apartments. For simplicity let’s say they all pay you 1000 dollars a month. With the lvt tax you pay 100 dollars a month per apartment. Your renters simultaneously get 90 dollars a month(let us assume that renters make up 50 percent of the population and slightly more than half of the tax comes from residential land, giving us 90 dollars)
You’re going to raise rent by 90 dollars, at least. Maybe 111 dollars, to compensate for the empty apartments, if you want to continue making the same amount of money.
If I jack up my prices, then my tenants would move to other apartments because overall market prices have not been distorted.
As a hypothetical landlord, i do want to continue making the same amount. Heck, I’d make more if I could! But I don’t want to lose it all on empty rental units.
What determines tax incidence - “I make less” or “you pay more” - is elasticity. The supply of land is inelastic, so the supplier (not the consumer) bears the burden of the tax.
Land value tax is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard of. “Unimproved” value? So basically when rich people get together and build mansions, next to them we build affordable housing. Both pay the same tax because the unimproved land is worth the same? Or maybe you’d argue that because the other mansions were built that the land is now worth more because it’s more desirable. That logic applies to the affordable housing next door though, so the rich can kick the poor out of house and home just by being nearby.
No, all taxes need to be extremely progressive because the wealthy simply consume more from society than the poor. A poor person can be poor anywhere. A rich person can only accumulate and hoard vast wealth if the society they parasite provides them with a steady source of healthy and intelligent workers and vast access to energy and natural resources to consume. The rich take more from society and need to pay more.
Taxes also need to apply to every possible economic transaction because unlike the poor, the rich can afford to do weird things to escape taxation. If we tax only one thing you can bet your ass the rich will find a way to avoid it and only the poor and working class will pay, allowing the rich to hoard wealth unimpeded leading to the tremendous inflation we see now.
Land value tax is progressive. Due to land’s inelastic supply, this tax cannot be passed on to others. People that own lots of land bear the entire burden of the tax. Charging for unimproved land value encourages building denser on more valuable land. This increases housing supply thus making housing more affordable
LVT is 1 policy. It can be combined with other policies. LVT is not an avoidable tax
How much land does Musk or Bezos own? How much land does an average farmer own?
Amazon warehouses are built on the unimproved equivalent of farmland or worse. The Amazon warehouse generates millions in annual profit. The same parcel of land gets a farmer a meager income and we should tax BOTH THE SAME???
If you come up with a tax that has any chance of taxing an old farmer more than it taxes Musk or Bezos, don’t come tell me it’s progressive.
Also I’m sick of hearing that somehow this tax “can’t be passed down to the consumer”. If every plot of land nearby is taxed the same, all the owners will shrug and say “sorry that’s just what it costs”. It’s the very definition of things that will be passed down to the consumer. Take your libertarian BS out of here.
The broader Georgist program involves aggressive taxation of government-granted monopolies like IP, which both Musk and Bezos are indirectly beneficiaries of.
LVT is 1 policy meant to solve 1 problem. It can be combined with other policies that address other problems.
The labor theory of property, a negative application of which provides a moral rationale for LVT, also provides a justification for an inalienable right to worker democracy
I’m sorry, I just have a hard time agreeing with you on the definition of progressive taxation here. Sure SOME rich people will pay more than SOME poor people. But even that statement is tenable at best. Certainly MOST rich people will pay less than an average family farm. Most rich people will pay less than an average person who owns a self sufficient rural homestead lot.
It’s not as bad as the libertarian “15/15/15 flat tax” that was making the rounds a few years ago, but that’s the best that can be said about it.
I like a lot of consequences of the LVT, like that if famously solves the downtown parking lot problem. But I’d never call it progressive. A progressive tax should tax people who own more wealth more than those who own less. If you tax someone who owns a multi million dollar hotel the same as someone who owns an empty lot next door all you’re doing is making it so that only the rich can afford lots. Then when they improve the lot to make more money you reward them by effectively taking a smaller percentage of their new found wealth.
LVT taxing the empty lot next door at the same rate as a multimillion dollar hotel is exactly what makes it so efficiency enhancing because it give land owners economic incentives to use their land productively rather than just holding it and waiting for it to appreciate in value. With LVT, prices would exclude the value of the land.
LVT can be combined with other policies and taxes. You have to look at the whole package of policies to determine progressivity. LVT+UBI is progressive
Land value tax would solve this when combined with a UBI from the revenue it generates
inflation: exists
if the revenue from the tax is used for the UBI, there is no change in the money supply compared to the current situation. So, can you explain where the inflation you’re predicting is coming from?
yeah, years of economic science dating back to post WW2. not just an emotional comment on lemmy.
They asked a fair question. And economics was more a branch of philosophy than a science at that time.
lol mfw
Ok thanks for your contribution Dr. Science.
u too mr hypothetical
philosophy is a science mr smartypants
Rent seeking, unless you also combine it with rent control and a bunch of other measures and have a monopoly on violence.
Inflation comes from people seeking to make more money, not just an increase in money supply.
That’s the benefit of a land value tax. It captures all the economic rent, without penalizing investment in improvements.
If you’re an anarchist, then the economics work the same way in a geoanarchist society.
LVT doesn’t really address the fundamental class antagonism between landlords and tenants.
Let’s say landlords pay more taxes because of LVT, and that goes to UBI. Landlords can just jack up the prices to make their money back. The only people who benefit are people who don’t rent.
Also geoanarchism doesn’t sound like anarchism, unless we are being pejorative toward anarchism.
I agree that LVT doesn’t address the fundamental class antagonism. It only addresses economic rent.
Landlords can’t just jack up prices. LVT doesn’t distort prices because the supply of land is perfectly inelastic - the revenue comes entirely out of landlord surplus. UBIs so far haven’t caused significant inflation, which makes sense if the total amount distributed equals the total amount taxed.
http://www.ozarkia.net/bill/anarchism/library/Geoanarchism-FredFoldvary.html
Okay, imagine a hypothetical. You’re a landlord with 90 percent occupancy rate across 100 apartments. For simplicity let’s say they all pay you 1000 dollars a month. With the lvt tax you pay 100 dollars a month per apartment. Your renters simultaneously get 90 dollars a month(let us assume that renters make up 50 percent of the population and slightly more than half of the tax comes from residential land, giving us 90 dollars)
You’re going to raise rent by 90 dollars, at least. Maybe 111 dollars, to compensate for the empty apartments, if you want to continue making the same amount of money.
If I jack up my prices, then my tenants would move to other apartments because overall market prices have not been distorted.
As a hypothetical landlord, i do want to continue making the same amount. Heck, I’d make more if I could! But I don’t want to lose it all on empty rental units.
What determines tax incidence - “I make less” or “you pay more” - is elasticity. The supply of land is inelastic, so the supplier (not the consumer) bears the burden of the tax.
wtf is that source lol
Don’t you have something better to do than troll?
Land value tax is the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard of. “Unimproved” value? So basically when rich people get together and build mansions, next to them we build affordable housing. Both pay the same tax because the unimproved land is worth the same? Or maybe you’d argue that because the other mansions were built that the land is now worth more because it’s more desirable. That logic applies to the affordable housing next door though, so the rich can kick the poor out of house and home just by being nearby.
No, all taxes need to be extremely progressive because the wealthy simply consume more from society than the poor. A poor person can be poor anywhere. A rich person can only accumulate and hoard vast wealth if the society they parasite provides them with a steady source of healthy and intelligent workers and vast access to energy and natural resources to consume. The rich take more from society and need to pay more.
Taxes also need to apply to every possible economic transaction because unlike the poor, the rich can afford to do weird things to escape taxation. If we tax only one thing you can bet your ass the rich will find a way to avoid it and only the poor and working class will pay, allowing the rich to hoard wealth unimpeded leading to the tremendous inflation we see now.
Land value tax is progressive. Due to land’s inelastic supply, this tax cannot be passed on to others. People that own lots of land bear the entire burden of the tax. Charging for unimproved land value encourages building denser on more valuable land. This increases housing supply thus making housing more affordable
LVT is 1 policy. It can be combined with other policies. LVT is not an avoidable tax
It’s not progressive.
How much land does Musk or Bezos own? How much land does an average farmer own?
Amazon warehouses are built on the unimproved equivalent of farmland or worse. The Amazon warehouse generates millions in annual profit. The same parcel of land gets a farmer a meager income and we should tax BOTH THE SAME???
If you come up with a tax that has any chance of taxing an old farmer more than it taxes Musk or Bezos, don’t come tell me it’s progressive.
Also I’m sick of hearing that somehow this tax “can’t be passed down to the consumer”. If every plot of land nearby is taxed the same, all the owners will shrug and say “sorry that’s just what it costs”. It’s the very definition of things that will be passed down to the consumer. Take your libertarian BS out of here.
It meets the definition of a progressive tax.
The broader Georgist program involves aggressive taxation of government-granted monopolies like IP, which both Musk and Bezos are indirectly beneficiaries of.
LVT is 1 policy meant to solve 1 problem. It can be combined with other policies that address other problems.
The labor theory of property, a negative application of which provides a moral rationale for LVT, also provides a justification for an inalienable right to worker democracy
I’m sorry, I just have a hard time agreeing with you on the definition of progressive taxation here. Sure SOME rich people will pay more than SOME poor people. But even that statement is tenable at best. Certainly MOST rich people will pay less than an average family farm. Most rich people will pay less than an average person who owns a self sufficient rural homestead lot.
It’s not as bad as the libertarian “15/15/15 flat tax” that was making the rounds a few years ago, but that’s the best that can be said about it.
I like a lot of consequences of the LVT, like that if famously solves the downtown parking lot problem. But I’d never call it progressive. A progressive tax should tax people who own more wealth more than those who own less. If you tax someone who owns a multi million dollar hotel the same as someone who owns an empty lot next door all you’re doing is making it so that only the rich can afford lots. Then when they improve the lot to make more money you reward them by effectively taking a smaller percentage of their new found wealth.
LVT taxing the empty lot next door at the same rate as a multimillion dollar hotel is exactly what makes it so efficiency enhancing because it give land owners economic incentives to use their land productively rather than just holding it and waiting for it to appreciate in value. With LVT, prices would exclude the value of the land.
LVT can be combined with other policies and taxes. You have to look at the whole package of policies to determine progressivity. LVT+UBI is progressive