I always had the notion it was swept out of focus because the white people started fighting not even a year later.
Can’t believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can’t understand that ordinary people didn’t want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren’t asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
Unfortunately, ordinary people did rise up and risk their lives, against the US and NATO. It wasn’t just that their military failed them, this wasn’t some battlefield loss, or a powerful regime keeping an iron hold on the populace, the military and the people just decided to side with the Taliban, it’s what they voted for in the most primal and basic election that exists.
That doesn’t mean that I’m not sympathetic to the plight of a lot of people that are suffering, there are a lot of people in westernized cities that have lost their freedom and their way of life because of what the rest of their country chose, but that also doesn’t mean that it’s right to cause even more blood and death to override that choice, just because we identify with the oppressed more than the Taliban. That type of mentality is exactly what made the US and NATO so hated in the region, and frankly, I have no reason to think that if we did it again it wouldn’t end with exactly the same result
You say people, but what you mean is men.
and women
So do you suggest they give up their sovereignty and become a territory of a neighbouring country?
The Taliban is allied with China so it won’t be them, if it’s India then China and Pakistan will see it as justification. Then the next closest neighbour would be the US but the people aren’t willing. And if you throw out the Taliban it’s not going to solve anything because they will just forever war
It’s kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It’s now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
I don’t claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
In fairness, outside of three decades or so in the 20th century, Germany has been one of the nicest places in the world to live in for at least the past 200.
Lost causes are relegated to the history books, and remembered by ivory tower academics.
Despite the narratives, the world at large hasn’t really ever come together for the sole purpose of liberating an oppressed people within a country. No
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Gotta love all the 'muricans trying to defend their exceptionalism and blaming Afghanistan and its people for the country’s woes.
USA never cared about Afghanistan or its people. In the 1980s, it, along with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and United Kingdom, helped fund the muhajideen fighting against the Soviet Union (Soviet-Afghan war). As soon as the war was over and the soviets retreated, the funding dried up.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Also, since at least 2010, it’s been publicly known that Pakistan has been helping the Taliban in fighting for Afghanistan. Yet, there were no sanctions, no tough talks, no threats, nothing, against Pakistan.
We spent twenty years fighting their battles for them, $2.3 trillion spent helping build up their infrastructure, supplying them with weapons and training, and trying to help them build a legitimate democratic government. After all our efforts, expenses, and American lives lost, it took the Taliban just ten days to retake the entire country. Freedom can’t be given it has to be won, and frankly they weren’t willing to fight for theirs… and I say this as a disabled combat veteran who lost dozens of friends to this conflict either in combat or to their own hands once they returned home. What a waste.
I agree, the hard truth is it’s on them. The people of Afghanistan collectively lacked the will to fight for their freedom. It’s a stark contrast with places like Ukraine.
O fuck off. You invaded them and then left. 2.3 trillion went to pay your military and contractors.
To be fair Russia, the UK and the US also took turns totaly destroying the country for the better part of the last century. We can’t give them their freedom back on a plate but we shouldn’t forget that we’re also the ones that took it away. That money and those lives weren’t some kind of gift they were an attempt to undo the collective damage we’ve done. Well the American/British money and lives, pretty sure Russia didn’t give a crap.
The Soviets had their go at nationbuilding. Their puppet state survived eight years after they withdrew as well, which is a fair bit longer than the ten days we managed.
Wow I’m american and this is some american kool aide if I’ve ever seen it. The Taliban is evil but the framing of the invasion and occupation as some noble humanitarian effort is like newsmax propaganda.
You’re right, but it seems like this post is asking for it again. Whatever framing it’s given, it didn’t work and was a massive waste, of lives and money.
I’m not sure what people want, exactly. 20 years of occupation wasn’t enough to change their culture even a little bit. Do they want permanent American occupation? That’s clearly untenable for many reasons. I don’t want America to be the world police, and I don’t want them invading countries on moral grounds.
Any aid given to Afghanistan immediately ends up in the hands of the Taliban now.
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No, the Spanish Republicans definitely put up a real fight. If the Afghan Army had the same mettle as the Republican Army of Spain, then the Taliban would have been kicked back to Pakistan because of massive materiel superiority.
100% . The dude you responded to is just wrong. Franco started the Civil War in 1936, but it went until 1939. He had a lot of the army plus the backing of the Nazis. The Spanish Republicans had… Picasso and Ernest Hemingway.
The painting “Guernica” is about Nazis bombing a small town. If you have to kill a horse and some children with a bomber, you aren’t going to be winning any time soon.
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Only lose Afghanistan in less than a week
Somehow, this chuckles me. What if Americans lose their country in less than a week?
Assange warned us that the war was not to be won. It was to be continually fought.
Kinda like Ukraine now.
The resources you’re referring to during the first decade were not used for “fiddling”, but well-spent on capturing and killing bin Laden and negating the threat of al-Qaeda. The occupation of Afghanistan following the raid on bin-Laden continued to be costly without reaping similar tangible rewards and that’s all the more reason for the US to subsequently withdraw from Afghanistan.
The US didn’t “lose Afghanistan”, they stopped pouring resources and lives into a very costly and difficult occupation without significant local support that didn’t make any sense or reap any benefit after achieving their stated goals of capturing and killing bin laden and dismantling al-Qaeda.
Nobody has forgotten Afghanistan, there just isn’t a foreign power actively occupying and policing their country anymore.
Dude, you should probably read up on the history of Afghanistan before you start saying “America is to blame”.
I mean, yeah… America IS to blame… among others. And it goes back WAY further than 20 some odd years.
Important reminder that the USA financed the mujahideen during the Soviet-Afghan war. See Operation Cyclone.
Hell, see Rambo 3.
Important reminder that in that war, Russia was yet again the invader
Welcome to capitalism.
What on earth does this have to do with capitalism?
Fox news much?
When asked to explain your incoherent statement, your instinct is to accuse the other person of consuming too much propaganda.
I mean I like the irony of your inanity but goddamnit couldn’t you at least put some effort into your hypocrisy?
You’ve got to be fucking kidding. Read a fucking book. You sound like a trumper patriot.
You’ve got to be fucking kidding. Read a fucking book.
Instructions unclear. I’m not sure how “Look to Windward” should help me show you how absolutely insane you are.
You sound like a trumper patriot.
Just when I thought you could not say anything dumber 🤣
I have never watched Fox News in my life, I’m not even American. Maybe try explaining your statements instead of attacking people for asking you to elaborate next time.
Then you don’t get to speak about the condition of our policy and economics when you have no say whatsoever.
20+ years, billions of dollars, and years of the West bitching about the US swinging it’s dick around.
5 years later: Help us Afghanistan is a shit hole and Europe probably couldn’t defend itself against Russia much less China.
Russia failed to defeat Ukraine after 2 years of fighting and you think they would be able to amount to anything against the whole of Europe? Lol.
Do you believe Ukraine would be in the position or is without US intervention? Despite internal political rhetoric that the EU needs to be more independent from the US?
The US has donated nearly 100b in aid, 45b of that in weapons. The closest two EU countries are UK and DE topping out at …checks notes… 12b or so.
If the US said fuck you guys, we aren’t sending you weapons, we are done ensuring the West has the ability to be the effective world police , Eastern Europe would look far smaller.
Troll account.
I don’t agree so he’s a troll 🙄
The US is supplying the vast majority of the aid. You think Ukraine wouldn’t be overrun if it was missing the 90% of the weapons that the US donated? Even EU policy leaders are calling for more EU defense spending to get away from being dependent.
There was an attempt at nation building and it didn’t go well. Afghanistan and the Middle East is a culturally complicated place, it’s mostly tribes and smaller villages with a lot of history. It’s hard to point fingers at the US for leaving when a decent chunk of the country either didn’t care, or didn’t want them there anymore.
The proper noun Middle East needs work.
Thank you
Even if the US intentions were good (and they were not great, basically being revenge for 9/11), who wants to be ruled by a foreign invader?
If some alien superpower invaded the USA tomorrow, gave them free healthcare, 40 days holiday a year from work, legalised abortion again and mountains of affordable housing in the places people actually wanted to live, they’d still fight back. Even if it meant things going back to how they were before.
I would take that deal. All hail our Alien overlords. Now, the south would not be pleased … but they have a losing record in armed conflict.
I would not fight that. I already think that we are ruled by outsiders (rich, geriatric boomers).
Most boomers are just who the oligarchs have pointed angry millennials at.
They’ll watch you fight for crumbs while they scoff cake. This is Bumfights for them.
Bold of you to think people would fight back against that lol.
That actually sounds incredible
People won’t fight back against anything because they are morally opposed to fighting back, regardless of what’s actually happening.
Just like Afghans, many liked the US, the taliban didn’t. There’d be a percentage of the population fighting tooth and nail.
I mean, literally any other country in the world is welcome to step in and fix it. Imagine the bragging rights at the next UN summit. “We fixed Afghanistan!” No? No takers? Alright.
As cynical as a take as that is, yeah national building hard espically out there. People will resist change, you have very little infrastructure to work with, and a poor little esucation population
The second part sounds a bit like a copout. They have done military interventions in a lot of different regions. The US has ransacked a growing number of countries just to get rid of a small amount of “baddies”.
You don’t get to destroy shit and leave. If you play world police, start doing the whole job, not parts of it. And I’m totally fine with US starting less interventions because they don’t wanna clean up after themselves. Probably a net positive given the history in the middle east.
I think at this point it’s best that the administration just got out because it appeared it was never going to get better. Just my perspective at reading about the attempts to build administration and actually get local citizens to build and manage their own sustainable government structures in place and it never taking off. Just read anything about the army’s attempts to create a competent Afghani security force.
We never should have intervened in the first place, and should have gotten out as soon as we could.
I agree with you, but also… they absolutely did not want us there. America isn’t trying to colonize.
The people in power are corrupt, the world around. Religious states, doubly so.
We can’t even control the zealots rising up in our own country.
When externals were (unsuccesfully) trying to change something in the country, it was a total bust. I read in these comments that intentions were not pure from America, and I can imagine that. I also saw interviews with US military personal after they came back from Afghanistan, who seemed to genuinely want to help, but had to deal with a lot of corruption, low education, internal theft and child abuse (Bachi Bazi). Now no one is helping, and even though I’d like for the local population to live free lives, I don’t even know how one would start to help. The Taliban will just hide and guerilla it’s way back after occupation has dissapated. It seems like a real life Kobayashi Maru situation. No winners, only losers here :(
Does anyone have stats on Afghanistan’s opinions on America’s occupation right before we left? I imagine most of them wanted America to leave…
Though I’m now curious what their TRUE opinion was of the Taliban, because I see people wanting Communism back in Russia, I imagine people wanted the Taliban back instead of the Americans.
I’m sure at least 50 percent of them are like “Fuck no” (women), but when that group isn’t a huge part of the people guarding the country, I wonder if this was inevitable. Even if we somehow destroyed the entire Taliban, there would be another fundamental Islamic group who wanted to take over.
I think they looked at the Taliban as a pragmatic choice and a familiar force. They also saw the US leaving as at least an end to years of war and a return to something resembling normalcy.
Thanks, Sleepy Joe.
…are you serious? Trump pulled them out
No. Trump promised to pull out the troops if the Taliban committed to combating terrorism. Sleepy Joe’s administration was the one who decided to finally pull out.
You aren’t forgotten. US and allies accepted the decision that was made within a week of us leaving. The country, as a whole, collectively chose the easy route of Taliban rule. That decision has consequences.
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Exclude the actual government of the country from negotiations, and then wonder why they stand by and watch when you pull out, and your enemy storms the gates…
The feeling there was…
- The gov didn’t care about anyone outside of Kabul.
- They knew the US wouldn’t be there forever and the ANA had shitty moral. The Taliban however would be there when the US left and people didn’t want to be targeted for revenge killings, etc.
20-year boondoggle, you know… The easy route…
Many people including Americans are suffering and have been forgotten because of what happened over there. I guarantee there are many that wish they had done things differently and just minded their own business. Patriotism is a powerful con.
Yeah, I mean, we were over there for well over a decade trying to fix that shit and the country as a whole just did not want to change, so we gave up and left. It was a giant waste for everyone involved.
trying to fix
😂😂👆
A giant waste for everyone
😂😂😂😂😂😂👆👆👆 Except the military money machine
You didn’t go to fix shit. You went because you wanted revenge. You stayed because a lot of people made money.
Everybody told you back them you can’t fix Afghanistan’s issues by force. You just killed a lot of Afghanis for nothing.
Then you went to Iraq.
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I don’t really get the stance of “you wanted revenge, bloodthirsty revenge murica”. Did you forget that innocent lives were taken, unasked?
What the fuck would YOU do? Sit there and twiddle your thumbs all like “oh…3,000 people, never forget. sniff”.
That is revenge. You think it is justified revenge. Perhaps it was though history did not start on 11/09/2001. It certainly is not “we were over there for well over a decade trying to fix that shit” as the guy I replied too said.
You also kind of forgot about the guy that actually arranged the attack for a few years while many more people died than in Afghanistan and Iraq than in WTC, most of them having nothing to do with the attacks.
