Ok, it’s true college isn’t what it used to be.
A college degree used to be rare, meaning you could get any degree and do any job.
Obviously, it’s not like that anymore. Everyone has a degree. You need to get a degree that means something.
If you have rich parents that will support you, great, you can fuck around and graduate after 8 years with an English degree, and you’ll be alright.
If your parents aren’t rich and can’t support you indefinitely, you need a degree in something that is hiring or will be hiring when you graduate. Preferably, with a large paycheck, so paying back the loans is reasonable.
Or, ya know, just don’t go to college. Learn to weld or install sattelite dishes, or even better, be a general contractor. You can make a goddamn fortune as a general contractor.
Or, do what Mark Twain did, and mary into wealth. Love is fake anyway!
But, ya know, being 18 and impressionable to romantic ideas, it’s tempting to think you don’t have to follow this guidance and get an art degree and you’ll be fine. Don’t fall into that. Be smart.
That’s the thing, some people aren’t smart enough to study. Or better said: some people never received the right guidance to know what they’re good at.
Agreed.
Who was Mary?
being 18 and impressionable to romantic ideas, it’s tempting to think you don’t have to follow this guidance and get an art degree and you’ll be fine
The bigger trap IMO is going into a field you aren’t passionate about. I have a computer science degree, my program had many students who didn’t really like it but were there for the money. While I’m sure some succeeded a lot of people who were just there for the money failed out, or performed so mediocre that they could only get less desirable jobs, which don’t pay as well and are also shit working conditions (which since these folks don’t like the career means they tend to burn out super quick).
There is a compromise to be had, you need to find something that you at least mostly find enjoyable, but has a viable career to go into, their are plenty of arts careers out there that pay alright, and if you specialize into them early instead of pursuing eye in the sky careers then you’ll find yourself ahead of the pack. Of course you must also look outside school to see what these careers value (paid coops are a great opportunity if your school has them) I have a few friends with social work degrees who are doing pretty good for instance.
That said, Tuition is somewhat subsidized where I am (my tuition was 15K USD a year and one of the more expensive schools and programs, an arts degree would be more like 10K USD) so YMMV compared with the USA where I hear tuition can commonly be well over 100K a year.
The bigger trap IMO is going into a field you aren’t passionate about.
I went to an art school for a degree in audio engineering and I encountered seniors in their final year who had no idea what the fuck they were doing because they didn’t seek out any opportunities outside of classes. I interned at a recording studio for about two years while I was in school and that prepared me better than any class I took. This is an industry where you need to be passionate about what you’re doing because work is rare in the beginning and the pay is pretty shit. There were several kids in my advanced practicums who didn’t even know how to properly wrap cables or mount microphones onto stands. I couldn’t help but think to myself “why the fuck are you even here”. You really have to go out of your way and fight for every opportunity you can get in this industry. I’m fortunate to be able to make a living in it but somehow some of the people I graduated with came out with less knowledge than what I learned in my freshman year.
It just baffles me that people get degrees in these highly competitive industries without any sort of drive to actually make a career. Interesting to hear that this happens in STEM fields as well.
Universities shouldn’t even be offering those degrees, imo. Perhaps at a higher level for those who have already worked the field and can have meta conversations about it, but the undergrad programs teach far too little over far too many years. It’s a waste for everyone but the administrators.
There are lots of useful things I learned in school but school is really what you make of it. I did my best to utilize the facilities that my college provided and got a lot of experience. Others just coasted and took courses, doing nothing outside of the coursework. Ultimately, the education helped me get to where I am. Especially in this industry where connections are everything, school can be a great tool to connect with professors and other students. It was also my gateway into the professional world because I was a good candidate for internships because of my background.
It’s a horribly inefficient way to structure networking and learning tradecrafts, though. Many of the most capable students will miss critical opportunities through no fault of their own - some people are taking care of parents who just happened to start dying during the short time they were enrolled, for example. Others have to work before and/or after classes.
Equally importantly it was built on top of a liberal arts foundation that was never supposed to produce engineers and the sort, and while it fails to enforce a liberal arts education on applied science majors, it also sacrifices its liberal arts programs to make it palatable for tradecraft. Liberal arts are certainly of benefit to tradespeople and everyone else, but it is no longer the reason people enroll - students often bemoan being forced to take even the most introductory courses. It is extremely beneficial for people who do want to pursue these studies and develop their systemic thinking, that they should be allowed to do so, for the benefit of any and every field. But a lit class or two during 4 years of career training and extracurriculars does not provide that.
I think the current system has found itself traveling down a dead-end path, and that it is now bound to be replaced as its haphazard construction will prevent it from overcoming its growing challenges.
I’m referring to the US system in particular here as I think that was the context. Even most of the top names have turned their undergrad programs in particular into exploitative diploma mills. I think the replication crisis is properly seen as a symptom of a fundamentally misbalanced system and that it won’t resolve itself by continuing business as usual.
I’m a very big fan of education and access to education. I think we’ve gone about this all wrong, and like I said, to all of our detriment except the administrators.
Hard disagree. College filled in a lot of missing gaps in my education and gave me a good basis for continuing to learn when I started my career.
It also used to be a liberal arts program for developing critical thinkers, not a new form of trade school with an infinitely more predatory profit model.
Go figure - capitalism killed higher education, too!
Going to university means you have a better chance than average at getting a good paying job*, not that you will get one.
*assuming you didn’t degree in some low-pay field or something.
Two art degrees! Time to sell nudes on Patreons!
I feel like this is about a specific person.
Unrelated but do you think a pizza flavored cake would taste good?
Unrelated but do you think a pizza flavored cake would taste good?
Go for it fam, do what you love and the money will come!
Start a business of taking HQ nude pics of other artists for their patreons. Now you are using your degrees, making more money, and you get free nudes.
University is in the end what you make out of it.
Talk to people, make some connections - this is what might end up landing you a job, not necessarily what they teach you or the diploma you might or might not get.
It also teaches you things like time management and organization and generally how to be an independent adult. Of course, it’s not the only way to learn these things, just like it’s not the only way to learn math or computer science. But it’s holistically a culture which is structured around these things, and is a massively helpful stepping stone for a lot of people.
But I am introvert. I don’t like making connections. Even if I do make connections I never follow up
The big difference is the type of job you can get.
If you want to work retail you can make decent money, but you are standing all day, dealing with entitled people and work hours that make it difficult to have a life. If you want a 9-5 better get a degree.
In what world does retail pay a living wage?
Retail management I assume.
I was making over $60k a year managing a small retail store.
It isn’t too hard to break into management of boutique retail shops, but you are basically a rep who doesn’t get overtime and has a few additional responsibilities. A part time job at a big corporation won’t be a living wage, but it’s possible to make a living in retail.
The job really sucks though.
Thats so funny. In germany you get like 36k for a retail management job. Depending on the brand I guess and size of the store though.
I always wonder what people got their degree in that set the expectation of a high paying job.
Also some people go to school for 16 years to be donkey smart.
Engineering and CS, IME
Look if going to college didn’t cost four years of time with 20K per year, where in my career you’d be near to outdated (tech), I’d go.
But for tech I feel like its almost a scam. I’d rather have the certs and/or practical knowledge or be able to go through an interview via algorithms, soft skills, explaining how to go through what I know. Its harder work to learn this way but I think it keeps your skills sharper.
My only solace is knowing that those same adults that repeated these lies to me as a kid will die starving and poor as I will have nothing to support them with.
Wow.
That’s so Raven!
What did you spend your money on?
A degree focusing on intensive career training in a field that is highly demanded, and networking,…
or a “life experience” and a degree in underwater basket weaving?
I mean I get why people like being edgy about this, but the statistics don’t lie. A bachelor’s degree on average increases weekly pay by about 50% over an associate degree or trade/apprenticeship. You can absolutely make a good living without a degree, but they are definitely worth the cost for most people.
Yeah editing my comment,y my “success” part just meant following a profitable major
Going to a good university and getting a degree in STEM means you get a good paying job.
Goes to expensive university and gets a worthless degree
Surprised when it doesn’t pay that well
I graduated college in 2022 with an electrical engineering degree and $0 in debt as I worked through it.
You experiencing the exception to the rule doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t apply to most everyone else.
Lots of jobs will pay for a degree.
It’s not a rule though, it’s working through the degree and being smart about your choices. My parents funded none of my college except meals because I ate at home
I didn’t “experience” the exception, I worked to be the exception.
I’ll be the first to admit that I did have some privilege in the fact that I lived with my parents the first 2 years.
But I worked hard to maintain grades so I could maintain scholarships that covered tuition.
I worked most nights during the week so that I could afford to pay for any other expense I had. Books, fees, transportation.
This isn’t just a matter of experiencing this situation, I made sacrifices to make it work
We can’t all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, and programmers. And if we all got those degrees companies would start lowering their wages because of the increased competition.
We need people to teach English, manage the environment, contribute to the arts, etc. Makes us a more well-rounded society.
I applaud you, I really do. You’ve shown an awareness of the world as it is that many young people don’t seem to have; even as they’ve been inundated with information that might inform them that THIS IS A TRAP!
I don’t fault them, though, because much of that inundation also tells them that if they just ‘apply here for $$’ they’ll be fine and as a kid I know which truth I’d like to believe. My own husband, who is frighteningly bright at all matters other than finance, fell for those same lies.
The truth is that a parent needs to help their kids navigate the “D&D full of monsters dungeon” to take advantage of the build that makes one successful… and while it can be done it’s just ‘nightmare difficulty’. If you can play through this, the rest of life gets a hell of a lot easier.
If you can’t, you’re gonna have to rely on politicians to ‘make things right’. What’s the likelihood of that in this day and age?
@Gingeybook I’d like to posit that you could profit from educating others. Just throwing that out there.
Not even close. Tech jobs in Canada are often only a few dollars an hour more than min wage.
Tech as in STEM and CS? No possible way engineer gigs of any stripe are that low
Nah UX and business analyst. One needs to be very technical while also very aware of business process and human factors.
Wtf…why? Is there just too many of them?
Most junior/entry level positions that I’ve seen in my job search are situated in the $35-45k salary range (some in mid 60s but these were very few when I checked).
They required 3-5 years experience and described multiple roles at once (QA, testing, front end with back end as a strong candidate asset, UI/UX (as if it wasn’t it’s own profession as is).
Those are Canadian jobs. If I was to look at American companies with Canada offices, compensation gets better but the talent pool is super saturated since lots of people are competing for those jobs.
Bollocks, unless min is 30 bucks an hour?
United States. $110,140.
Switzerland. $97,518.
Israel. $71,559.
Denmark. $63,680.
Canada. $61,680.
Norway. $57,013.
Australia. $55,640.
United Kingdom. $55,275.
https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/
The number from your aggregated average list is definitely not the norm from my personal job search over the last 6 months. The positions in the 50 and 60ks are for senior positions or American companies with Canada offices (with the exception of course for the CSPS, which is impossible to get into unless you know someone that can pull favours or you win a multiple years long lottery to qualify for an IT-01 pool).
I really wish it was bollocks because it’s been feeling like a whole bucket full of bollocks for a long time.
35-45k is the norm I’m seeing on Indeed and LinkedIn applications for my line of work. If I’m feeling particularly suicidal I’ll look at the same job applications for US residence and dream about buying the groceries I want, instead of the minimum I need to have enough for housing.
could you be more specific about what tech field you are talking about?
I too am a tech worker in Canada, but most of the jobs in my field (Kernel programmer) are starting at about 75K or so (or at least they were in 2018 when I was new), and compared to most of my peers I’m taking the passion route that pays a bit less. My wife went the dev ops route and found a similar starting salary and had I sold my soul to app dev (and the type of shop that hires only university grads) I would be looking at around 90K or so starting salary. 5 years on we are both making 115KCAD or so.
If I look at my alma maters’ coop statistics, I can see that even first year coop positions are going for an average of 20CAD/hr (so equivalent to ~40K a year) (and those numbers tend be skewed down since they include general math degrees, which have less market value).
So Either a lot has changed in the last 5 years (Job market seems to have cooled off a fair amount, but judging by my linkedin tech jobs are still very much in demand), you are talking about a tech job that doesn’t require a university degree, or their are extenuating circumstances that are making you less desirable. If it is the third there are generally quite a lot you can do to mitigate that, biggest among them being to build your portfolio (protip, small finished and/or published projects are much more impressive than large half done ones).
Without doxxing myself or giving away too much info, I am in UX and business analysis. I’m not coding (sometimes but sparingly). Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong.
My field is basically the bridge between devs and the client. Need enough technical knowledge to come up with software features to implement and enough people/business/process knowledge to make it work and temper expectations with all parties.
Feels like I should have just specialized in one thing instead of combining as that’s where all the money is.
Ah, I think most of this thread is using STEM and “Tech” a bit too interchangeably unfortunately. This makes a lot more sense I think unfortunately.
I think your career seems very skewed towards experience unfortunately, those sorts of dev/client relations positions can be extremely well paying but only late in your career. You might find it easier to start if you try the Project Manager route and then side grade into the analyst role you want. I’m no expert here, but I think there are some PM certs you can get to get over the no experience hump there.
Keep your chin up and good luck!
I’d argue I work in tech as my role is very technical and deals with agile software development. I run scrums with developers and meet with non-tech savvy clients to translate their demands into actual workable software features (along with the overall experience and UI elements+testing).
Not really a PM role as my strengths are more technical than people/project managing. Thanks for the kind words!
Tech jobs on indeed show it even higher at 72k
https://ca.indeed.com/career/it-technician/salaries
If you’re talking entry level, then sure, but if you pick a fast growing company there will be opportunities to progress
Again these averages are skewed by the few exclusive jobs with high salaries (like the CRA and being an RBC IT exec for example from your link).
Is it possible to make $60k+ in Canada in IT? Sure. Is it likely? No.
For those that aren’t in the top 10% of the batch, there’s 100 $35k-45kish jobs for every 1 high level $60k+ job. If you aren’t a wizard or considered an SME then it’s the choice between having enough for rent to waiting for luck to be in your favour. The majority of those I graduated with are in similar positions.
The overachieving burnout-types are either starting business with limited success or have decent paying jobs. The rest I know (me included) are stuck looking for greener pastures.
Looking for a job is a job far more punishing than many of the paid jobs I’ve had :(
I’ve had some really miserable jobs that barely put me through school and many of those jobs were less work/demoralizing than my job search. Feels just hopeless.
Expensive too. I don’t think I’ve ever jumped ship at the wrong time, but the consequences when there’s no other work free is terrible. Current customer service job is low pay but much easier to show up and do extra hours, nice staff and nice customers - a first!
Yo, if your in tach getting paid this shit, you need to find a new company.
I’ve been looking for the better half of 2023 after remote work was ended for my position. The job search has been pretty demotivating as it looks like there’s a race to the bottom to cram as many qualifications into positions that pay the absolute least.
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From the academic studies I had to research to inform my workplace on pros/cons of remote work, that wasn’t the conclusion. I’m paraphrasing but the majority of those that self reported their own productivity highlighted an overwhelming increase in productivity.
When it came down to aggregate productivity (in jobs with quantifiable KPIs), they found moderate to significant increases in productivity as long as management adjusted their managing style to accommodate remote. This opinion differed the higher up in management that studies polled.
For my workplace specifically, they had invested multiple billions throughout the entire portfolio into longterm building leases (10+ years) and could not leave these agreements so it was easier for upper management to justify the sunken cost of leases than employee opinion or perceived/measured increases in productivity.
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I’m sorry but your conclusions you drew aren’t in line with reality, specifically at my organization.
Ego and sunken cost were the main reasons at least at my workplace to reimplement back to work orders.
The majority of higher level management were not able to pivot to a remote scenario and were not willing to invest in the training and additional tech infrastructure necessary to convert to remote by design. It would have required deep restructuring and loss of middle management positions.
Our organization had multiple decades long leases that were signed in 2018. The employer also received heavy lobbying from municipal businesses and government to return to office. A big reason for that was the calculation that a lack of in office presence would cause financial damage to the downtown sector of my city.
There are many facets to this issue and none of them have to do with actual employee productivity.
Partner has a STEM master’s degree from a good university. I make the same amount in desktop support with no degree.
Dad has an MBA. Works on databases for a living.
Sister has Bachelor’s in Industrial Design from a top design school in the US. Has worked for big name industry players. She make more money from her 1 year self-paced coding boot camp.
Most degrees are worthless these days, and it’s high time we start demanding refunds. Cancel student debt. The promises made to us in highschool about career paths were blatantly false. Also, tax billionaires.
Depends on what you go for.
Enjoy applying for entry level positions that require 3-5 years of experience.
I applied for an internship in 2009 and got turned down because I had no experience.
lmao
And that 3-5 years experience is needed in technology that came out 1.5 years ago!
I mentioned to a recruiter once that it wasn’t possible to have “10+ years in Figma” since it only came out in 2015 and that was the last I heard lol.
Same response when I remind them that job postings in my state require a salary range
These days, just asking the recruiter what company they are recruiting for is enough. I don’t fucking get it tbh… these recruiters will spend weeks hounding you about this crazy opportunity in LinkedIn and across three different emails and on Instagram and occasionally Snapchat, and then just ghost you the second you ask them the most obvious fucking question. “Where do you want me to apply?”
I wonder who writes these requirements.
HR drones
Yeah, fuck that. I didn’t go because I had no interest in sitting in yet more classrooms listening to people drone on and smelling other people’s farts for 4 more years
Going to University means you have a chance at a good paying job. Depending on the job, likely a better chance then someone who didnt go. I make decent money and did not go, however I am incredibly lucky and am not betting on that for any children i have. Trades or University/College is a must.
That being said, how about the Government reduces the cost of post-secondary education, instead of allowing banks to earn off billions of school loans each year. Here, they do reduce it for citizens, however not nearly enough. Additionally, many graduates end up moving to other countries because the pay is lower here.
I’m not from the US, I think I’ve heard that banks are obligated to give those loans with some characteristics?
It’s going to cost much less if getting a student loan becomes much harder, because universities still need people paying.
If anybody can get a loan, the cost becomes inflated.
Just a thought.
The costs HAVE become I flatbed, because everyone can get a loan for a degree, and schools keep raising tuition.
Well, then the solution is abolishing the law making these loans so easy. It will make things easier for students themselves (only after a transient process, though, which itself is going to be hard - but that can be softened by, say, abolishing it gradually, for different categories of students).
I barely scrapped through high school and now 20 odd years later I’m in an office job on a 6 figure salary. One of the lucky ones I guess?
Good thing your job doesn’t require you to be able to spell
No you misunderstand, he attended the school of hard knocks
That’s pretty much a question of culture and the field.
In Germany, it’s pretty much impossible to get into some jobs without a degree. In others, you get a higher salary for having a degree, to the point where some companies will not take you for a position because your degree makes you too expensive. In the public sector, your highest degree determines your salary scale (and most importantly where it caps out).
Not saying the system is good like that, but it is currently that way, so at the very least here, degree often corresponds to higher salary.
In Finland when public sector is doing a competitive procurement from the private sector, e.g. an IT project, by law they have to prefer the company with higher educated employees. A lot of talented people in IT don’t have degrees, so those people don’t get hired to public sector jobs or even to private sector that has public sector as a client.
All public sector IT projects here have been gigantic, expensive shit shows.
