This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
Whenever Israel says their gonna bomb a place to let civilians leave, the Hamas make the civilians stay so they get killed along with them. The Hamas are monsters
Israel does not allow Gaza civilians to leave Gaza. Why blame Hamas?
both sides are stupid. youd think after all these years of fighting a compromise could be found, but NO, they just always fight. gives me the feeling that they dont want it any other way.
Have you ever heard the phrase, “you can’t negotiate with terrorists?” Turns out it’s true.
Didn’t the United States consider the Taliban terrorists? Did that stop them from negotiating a retreat from Afghanistan? America sure seems to believe you can negotiate with terrorists.
The terrorists in that case managed to outlast a billion/trillion $ anti-terrorism budget, I don’t think the US had much negotiating power or a choice to not negotiate in that case. Ironic considering how many times that it’s been the other way around.
There’s many Palestinians in Israeli territory right now. If they were willing to compromise, they wouldn’t be brutalizing them weekly, gassing them in places of prayer and stripping away their rights.
One of my best friends has a whole bunch of Israeli cousins that I’m friendly with when they’ve visited the states. According to them, a lot of Israeli people have a lot of Palestinian friends and vice versa, especially the younger generations, it’s primarily the Israeli government and Hamas that keep this shit going. Most of the average people don’t take issue with each other outside of extremists and nationalists on either side, they’d rather just all get along. They say the issue tends to lie with governing authority over holy sites, that Israel is trying to be the big kid on the block in the region, and the Palestinians just want to live in peace with equal rights and to not be treated as substandard citizens on their own land and are rightfully pissed that they keep getting pushed around.
Of course, the issue is the Israeli state, not the Jewish people. There are even organizations in Israel fighting for Palestinian rights and against the Israeli state (and many get punished for it).
But unfortunately there are also many who support what is being done to Palestinians. But in the end, the Israeli state and military are the main entities to blame.
I doubt that you will be swayed by facts, but just for the record: in 2000 Israel offered Hamas to become a fully sovereign nation on 100% of Gaza’s territory (and 95% of the West Bank) with East Jerusalem as their capital. Hamas declined. In 2005 Israel voluntarily disengaged from Gaza and enabled self-rule, hoping this would be a step towards peace. It wasn’t. In 2011 there was another offer for a “two states for two peoples” solution, Hamas once again rejected it.
None of this is surprising since the Hamas is a fanatic Muslim group following the most militant tenets of Islam. Their publicly-stated charter is to utterly destroy Israel (“drive the jews into the sea”) and create a Muslim nation on the entire area of Palestine. So anything less than that is a non-starter. Any Jew left alive in Israel means that they haven’t finished yet.
Note that there’s nothing in the charter about the Palestinian people - The Hamas takes no civic or sovereign responsibility for the population which they govern. In other words, Hamas sees the Palestinian people as a consumable resource in their fight to bring Islam to 100% of the territory historically referred to as “Palestine”. So building tunnels under schools and hospitals is allowed. Diverting humanitarian aid to the military infrastructure while the population starves is fine. Indoctrinating children from kindergarten about the glory of killing Jews is standard procedure. etc. Using the Gaza residents as human shields is valuable both for reducing Hamas casualties as well as increasing collateral damage which makes Israel “look bad” in the international community.
Compromise is difficult because when negotiating with someone who wants you dead, how do you meet them halfway ?
Israel already look horrible to anyone paying attention, the entire West is backing them
Go further back, even. The UN Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947 would have given Palestine its own territory, splitting it with Israel 45/55. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine both rejected it.
It’s not like compromises have never been offered. The Arabs have simply never been willing to accept anything less than the expulsion of the Jews from the territory.
From their perspective, someone just moved into their house one day and when they objected they said “let’s compromise, you can keep half of the house.” No wonder they rejected that compromise.
Unfortunately we’re now a couple of generations past that initial event so it’s a lot more complicated at this point.
At this rate they shall soon have no house at all. Constant terror attacks against an undefeatable enemy and an unwillingness to compromise will ensure it.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I don’t think they “just moved in”. They’ve lived there for a long time as well, but the former country of Palestine was quite divided ethnically, and that caused issues due to extremists (on both sides).
The purpose of splitting Palestine was to get two countries that were at least less divided ethnically, but due to where people lived Israel still remained quite evenly divided between muslims and jews whereas the new Palestine was close to 100% muslims.
Countries have been split all over the world before in somewhat similar manners without causing as big conflicts, showing that this could’ve been done in a peaceful manner. What went wrong here? I don’t know.
Palestinians are not saying to expel Jews. They are saying to remove the ethnoreligious state, not the Jews themselves.
This was reiterated countless of times. They seek a Democratic state where Jews and non jews can be equal.
Sorry, I was wrong. They want to “obliterate” the Jews, not expel them. When talking about genocide, it’s important to specify the correct flavor.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Regardless, they have multiple times rejected concessions and compromises that would have enabled them to have an independent democratic nation. If that’s truly what they wanted, why would they always pass on the opportunity to get it without bloodshed?
Just an addendum, the partition is based on the previous split of Transjordan Palestine after ww1, where there was a 80/20 split for the Arabs. With the Israeli getting most of Palestine.
Why agree to this “compromise” when Israel violated the previous one?
Drive the vast majority of a population from their homes, and to a tiny strip of their former homeland, then “generously” offer them to just remain there in their little concentration camp. And not even guaranteed, given Israel’s history. Gee, I wonder why they rejected?
It’s not surprising that this is what occupiers think is “compromise”.
If you know enough history to be familiar with the “previous ones” then you know that that they could have gotten half of Israel’s territory in 1947 but instead they (the Arab nations) preferred to go to war to take it all. And they failed. And then again in 68, same story. BTW Israel has repeatedly offered to transfer control of Gaza to Egypt, the Egyptians have no interest in helping them out in any way. It’s more expedient for all the Arab world that Gaza remains a festering sore in Israel’s side - of course at the expense of the poor Palestinians who are stuck there. Even now, Egypt is unwilling to open it’s border for Palestinians who wish to flee the area. But it’s obviously more fashionable to blame Israel for creating a “concentration camp” even after all of that. No-other country in the region is willing to lift a finger to help them, yet you expect the most from the country which Gaza has sworn to destroy and attacks at every opportunity?
Who’s “they”, exactly? Certainly not the average Israeli or Palestinian.
“hurr de durr, both sides”
What a giant load of crap
1155 upvotes, 342 downvotes. This can be used to estimate how many percentage of true fascists exist across federated instances. These are majorly western predditors. Lemmy seems to be a truer representation of internet in proportion to global population, compared to 80% Anglos that use preddit.
I love conflicted podcast. Condensed: fuck organizers of these attacks (likely iran) just before historic peace treaties in the region. They knew fully well what would the response be.
Casualties? Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible, no matter of what nationality they were. Even tourists were killed. Casualties are about bad luck, but Hamas victims were murdered because of evil intention. They cannot be compared to Palestinian casualties in any way.
Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible
Source?
This is false. Hamas is not free of criticism, they did commit needless killing of civilians, but their main target remains the IDF. This is contrasted with Israel, whose target is civilians.
Even the music festival was located right next to the Re’im base. The festival itself had Israeli gunned men and tanks. Again, I do not condemn the civilians needlessly killed by some Hamas members, but the operation’s target was the military.
While I agree with you about Hamas, the fact you don’t apply the same logic to the IDF is very telling. A country that believes a whole group of people are less than human and wants them eradicated absolutely intends every casualty it inflicts.
Israeli snipers murder innocent children, journalists and medical staff because of evil intentions.
Israeli bombs dropped on one of the densest populated areas which are bound to inflict civilian casualties are doing their intended evil.
The choice to turn off the electricity even though it will guarantee deaths in hospitals is not bad luck and is evil.
Israel is evil.
In fact if we’re going by civilian casualties Israel is like 36x more evil.
Why can’t they be compared? People killed with a knife are just as dead as people killed with a missile.
♬No more Mister Nice Guy
No more Mister Clean
No more Mister Nice Guy
They say he’s sick, he’s obscene♬
free palestine
Take a look at this guy’s other Palestine Israel Post and decide if you wanna upvote this terrorist enjoyer.
there is no bigger terrorist than Israel.
https://lemy.lol/post/11080592 for the curious.
“The genocide must stop” is what you consider to be terrorism? Oh yeah, you must be from the west, where terrorism is resisting massacre.
I agree with the comic. I do however disagree with the title. I think the Hamas’ attack shouldn’t to be called “resistance”, just as Israel’s response shouldn’t be called “self defense”.
This! Was searching the whole comment section and wanted to post it just now and luckily hit refresh.
I agree with you that it needs to be clarified further. While I think it is still “resistance” in the sense that it was done with the intention to resist occupation and all what Israel does, I do agree that civilians died that didn’t need to, and it did not lead to positive results.
When you live your whole life in a concentration camp and get bombed almost daily, you may lose some rationality and start justifying more things in the name or resistance. Ultimately I blame Israel for putting them in this situation, and putting civilians so close to their border.
In the end, my whole point is that Hamas attack must not justify a response from Israel. It should lead us to pull back instead.
@matcha_addict
The issue here is similar to most of the land contest issues in the world: what historical period you use to determine land ownership. As an example: most of the current territory of Russia was once occupied by Mongolian tribes under the leadership of Chenghis Khan. So if that’s the frame of reference you use, Mongolia has legitimate rights to wage war to reclaim their land.I have a solution for you: why shouldn’t we live with Israelis in peace? Why can’t we have a Democratic state for all? Israel loses this “historical land” battle, but even if they didn’t, does that justify massacre? Palestinians have always advocated a state for all, but Israel never agrees.
@matcha_addict I agree with you. Historically Jews and Arabs that occupied this land are the same people with different religious beliefs. They are all Semites. They should be able to live together.
Globally speaking, the borders of counties are just arbitrarily drawn lines on the map. Lines, drawn by individual people who decided for the masses where they can and cannot have a home.
I believe, we as humans, should abolish borders of any kind.@matcha_addict But I’m afraid this idea has no traction. It’s only going to be possible if we as humanity realize that we are not alone in the universe and another species threatens us from outer space. I don’t know any other way that we can all unite as earthlings and realize the fallacy of carving up the world into spheres of influence for a few, mostly militaristic men.
But I’m afraid this idea has no traction.
But it’s supported by most Palestinians!
Dafuq is this meme? civilians are civilians, regardless of the country religion or whatever the duck they’re born in.
Israel kills more civilians.
Jesus Christ I had to scroll through like, 10 top level comments to find someone with a measure of reason. I’m actually stunned.
Do you somehow not realise that is exactly the point being made?
YES, because OP is typing words that can be misconstrued as being a shill or a bigoted asshole. I’m smart enough to recognize it if you point it out, but I’m not fucking psychic, and I’m the kind of person who believes in dream prophesies so that just shows that neither potential delusion nor intelligence have anything to do with people misreading things online. It’s just human and technical limitations, but your italics are clear so: if you don’t want people to be annoyed at you, maybe respond without being condescending.
How could you misconstrue their words that way?
If civilians are civilians…
"Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/
In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month."
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/
Both sides kill civilians with abandon, and Israel is markedly better at it. Major media doesn’t seem to care very much about Palestinian civilians though.
I completely agree with you. Which is why when you look at the grotesque number of civilians Israel kills every year it’s pretty easy to condem them.
Get off your high horse colonizer
Uh, what?
Israel is the colonizers in this instance and I’m opposing them so???
Is this cartoon originally about the US invading the middle east? Looks like the twin towers in there.
Now your upvote counter is the twin towers.
EDIT: And if you think about it, my upvote counter is the twin towers shortly after
EDIT2: Too far! Too far!
Upvote this to the front page so that lemmy world sees it.
Hard to notice something when you close your eyes and plug your ears
More important is having human soul. They are a bunch of pro-Zionist inbreds.
That 2023 number is about to get way more lopsided.
It’s important to note that the real disparity may be even far worse.
OCHA-OPT (the committee gathering this data) is strict about verifying validity of Palestinian casualties, requiring two independent, verified and non-affiliated sources. Casualties in Israel, however, they trust the media at face value. They also exclude a lot of Palestinian casualties even when verified in certain situations. Example, and I quote them:
People who were killed or injured in conflict-related incidents that took place in Israel and did not involve residents of the oPt are also excluded.
oPt (occupied Palestinian territories) are the areas that Israel does not directly oversee. So most of Israel is not oPt by their criteria.
Israel is notorious for restricting journalists reporting on Israeli crimes, and has murdered journalists countless of times, like last year the Christian Palestinian Shireen Abu Akleh reporting on the forced expulsion of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah (so not even in a war zone area). This causes many casualties to go unverified and thus undocumented.
And Israel has been caught lying before about its own casualties, like the 40 beheaded babies.
Take that as you will.
I mean, both Hamas and Israeli leadership should be prosecuted for war crimes
I just think this situation shouldn’t have even been reached in the first place…
I would not equate the too. Not to mention, Israel sponsored Hamas.