Whelp… ya gotta have a hobby.
Hamas saw that Bibi is digging a giant hole for himself and said “I want in”
And they should get to do it, considering what all those Jews did to the Palestinians
Well I’ve done some maths, and I’m pretty sure the IDF can kill the population of Gaza faster than Hamas can kill the population of Israel.
That’s exactly what Hamas wants to see because that’s what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
They don’t give a shit about the Palestinian people.
Nobody is going to invade for humanitarian reasons. That only happens for very weak nations that have no international support.
The government of Israel has amazing international support, first class weaponry, outclassing all of its neighbors militaries by orders of magnitude, and a ambiguous nuclear strike capability.
They could literally take every one of their oppressed civilians, drop them into a vat of acid, live streaming on the internet indefinitely, and nobody’s going to invade.
Give countries something to fight over, some material resource, and there will be a war, water, energy, access to trade, but humanitarian philosophies are things few people are willing to die for.
Who said anything about humanitarian invasions? Why are you arguing against something you made up?
You said That’s exactly what Hamas wants to see because that’s what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
I had assumed your Arab nation invasion was due to the death of Palestinian civilians. In your scenario why are the Arab nations invading?
Because from their perspective someone invaded their land and is now vulnerable to getting kicked off it. The only reason Israel exists is because it’s supported by the US and Europe. Take away that support and Israel goes away.
The intended result for Hamas is for Israel to respond with actions that erode the very support that they depend on for security against invasion from surrounding arab nations that don’t need any new reasons to attack Israel apart from the very existence of Israel in the first place.
Even if all external countries cut off military aid, Israel still is sitting on nuclear weapons. It’s unlikely anyone would try to invade them, they don’t want to get nuked.
But in this scenario over the course of 5 to 10 years, they would be less able to power project beyond their borders. That’s true.
But let’s not forget the The geographic neighbors, the military peers, are incredibly weak. So Israel becoming weak doesn’t really make their jobs any easier
Not lost them a lot of international support so far, I’ll be honest.
While they may still be reeling from the loss of Bolivia, the people they do business with on a daily basis have picked their sides and stuck to it.
At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamas leaders are actually undercover IDF
So, just to be clear, you’re saying that the attack against Israel was actually a secret Jewish conspiracy to make Hamas look bad?
Stop equating israelis to Jews
Israel ≠ Jews. Why are you repeating Hamas talking points?
Ever heard of a false flag attack?
More like a way to give Israel a casus belli to turn Gaza into a parking lot.
Not saying that’s what happened, but as far as theofascist stayed go I wouldn’t be surprised
Didn’t Netanyahu prop up Hamas? That’s all the info I need to know. That and one conversation with a Zionist, they are out of their mind and will straight up say that Palestinians don’t deserve to live. That conversation was over a decade ago and it still gives me the creepy crawlys… it was like talking to a proud Nazi that firmly believed in his ideology.
Zionists fall under the category of most religious extremeist- stupid and dangerous. If we could drop all zionists in a hunger games scenario with all members of hamas, maybe throw the Catholic Church in there too.
Except nobody wins we just burn it down when they’re done killing each other like they’re going to do anyway.
Hamas and Netanyahus rhetoric; name a more iconic due.
These fuckers fit hand and fucking glove.
You will run out of Palestinians to get bombed before that.
They’re not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol
Which supporters? This is a boon to Vladimir Putin, as world attention and aid to Israel comes at a cost to support for Ukraine.
By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel’s criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.
Which supporters?
People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict
I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don’t think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.
I’m not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?
Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.
I’m not saying it’s my personal opinion
Don’t confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.
People are already confusing the two, that’s why it’s an issue
It’s deliberate. If you don’t support Israel’s apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel’s nutters want Palestine gone.
But Hamas are not Palestine.
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas.
There’s a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.
They shouldn’t have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I’m no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It’s like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.
What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?
It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.
Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions
There is also the West Bank, however.
Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza
The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.
Unfortunately
It seems to me that Hamas “governs” Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza “govern” the people they extort.
Governing is a generous term
Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn’t matter if they do a good job of it or not.
How do you figure?
They are the de facto (and kind of de jure…) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.
If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be “heroes”. And they aren’t going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.
They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they’ve gotten any more popular since then.
I was about to say, who’s out there supporting hamas
Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes…
The tankies are all over it, actually.
Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how “baby settlers” are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.
It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn’t been helped much at all by international supporters, so it’s not like they care about that.
Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren’t acting like such villains
Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it’s military and populace.
A senior member of Hamas has hailed the systematic slaughter of civilians in Israel
When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”
who still thinks hamas are the good guys?
Nobody said they were.
edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site…
Somebody told me recently on here that “Hamas is facing a genocide” apparently without any sort of irony or remorse.
My impression is that at least half of fediverse.
My impression is that at least half of fediverse.
I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support “both sides” and Israel can defend itself… but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October’s from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don’t want to actually say that out loud.
They aren’t going about this in a way that stops this from happening is the problem. You’re so wrapped up in the Zionist narrative that they’ve tricked you into thinking extermination is the final solution.
Britain didn’t get rid of the IRA by bombing and blockading Ireland. There was no ground invasion despite thousands dying in bombings and other violence.
The fact is that the attack in October and others like it happen because the extreme Zionists like Likud have taken steps to ensure this. Because they’re creating a situation where they can be horrifically brutal but hide behind good pr narratives. They literally propped up Hamas at its inception with the stated goal of fracturing Fatah which was a moderate party suing for a two state solution.
As long as Israel keeps killing Palestinians in the West Bank where there IS NO HAMAS, they will keep driving support for any group that resists Israel.
You can get far more innocent civilians on your side if you treat them better than Hamas. Knowing everything we know about how Hamas treats them should tell you just how bad Israel treats them on top of that.
You stop this by removing the war mongers from power first and foremost. As long as Netanyahu’s party has control there can never be peace. Because like Hamas, they want a one state solution too.
It’s been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.
You must be reading a very different slice of the fediverse than I am. I’ve been blocking Nazis, tankies, and other assorted idiots on sight since I started using Lemmy, and I’ve seen maybe a handful of people saying things that could be interpreted as supporting Hamas. They are vastly outnumbered by people decrying the slaughter of civilians and apologists for Israel.
Antisemitic people, if I had to make a guess
To be fair, and I realize it’s difficult to be fair here:
The Israeli government has said it is going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas has said it is going for the total destruction of the Israeli government… They’ve taken up equivalent positions
I think what that really means, is both belligerents are going to try the radical new policy of killing more random civilians, and seeing if anything changes…
Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.
The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.
Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.
Uhmm. Are you aware that Israel is #4 on the World Happiness Index this year? It’s the happiest non-scandinavic country in the world. You don’t get there by being “enemy of the people”.
Here are the rankings of Israel’s neighbors:
- Egypt #121
- Jordan #123
- Lebanon #136 (second worst of all measured)
- State of Palestine #99
Israel is obviously not the problem in that area.
Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.
Surely the poor countries are the problem.
You must understand that you cannot explain it away like that. Palestine perhaps you might, but funnily enough, it’s the happiest country of those four.
Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.
Why not? Literally just give any explanation.
Egypt’s, Jordan’s and Lebanon’s bad standings in the happiness scale cannot in any way be explained away by Israel. Just because you lost several wars against an enemy several decades ago isn’t enough to explain any of it. So it’s all on them. As I said, Palestine’s bad situation might be explained by Israel, but again, it’s the happiest of those four.
You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.
You said that both Hamas and Israel are the enemies of the people. I disproved that notion by noting how Israel is #4 happiest country in the world. My apologies, I thought the inference was obvious.
I didn’t blame it on Israel, I said the imperial war machine. Israel the state is also the product of capitalist imperialism, but they are the beneficiary. I made that pretty clear I think.
The poor countries on that list are all the target of structural adjustment policies, which basically say “you need to neglect your population and become indentured servants, and if you don’t we will fucking glass your country.” That last part about glassing them isn’t in the text, but it’s clearly implied by the context these policies take place in. Also the leaders are usually bribed so they will agree more readily.
And just because Israeli citizens are “happy” according to some index that you’ve not actually shared, just insisted does exist, has nothing to do with whether the state is on their side. They are generally extremely wealthy people living in an extremely wealthy state that is propped up by US spending. The people who live there are expats from wealthy western countries, which is a privileged sample of a privileged sample.
I’ll refer you to Hank’s Razor: “Anything that can be explained by socioeconomic status in a society, it’s probably that rather than the thing that you’re measuring.”
This is almost certainly entirely socioeconomic status, directly influenced by geopolitics.
Also, Israel’s genocide is not making their people safer. It is endangering them enormously. The state just can’t stop genociding because it’s been given a green light by the US imperial war machine, and that’s just how states behave when they have that kind of power.
There are levels of evil.
And? You’re allowed to say what you mean, you know.
Where do the civilians being bombed fall on your spectrum of evil? Do they somehow deserve it in your eyes?
Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?
Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.
So like… don’t do that? Maybe Israel shouldn’t do that, because fucking obviously?
Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.
You’re not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.
None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I’m sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.
But you’re still ok with using artillery against a city if the city has an army in it?
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
Attacking civilians to stop an apartheid from getting more money and support is evil.
Making up reasons after you target civilians and journalists is another level of evil.
Difference is, Israel isn’t meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.
Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel’s treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.
The… what? I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.
The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn’t make that somehow okay.
The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.
Yeah… but they’re still bombing civilians. The “human shields” thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
It makes sense because it doesn’t violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?
100%. People here scream “genocide” and “war crimes” but have no idea what these words mean. The “friends” of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.
Doesn’t change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.
Right… so it’s so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?
So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they’re just a force of nature or something?
Again, you’re also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.
And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they’ve gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they’ve had unconditional US state backing.
The Palestine territories are vassal states of Israel. Israel is ultimately responsible for the safety of civilians in the territory they control.
Only tankies. Literally no one out here with a braincell is defending Hamas.
If you’re coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a “good guys/bad guys” framework you’re absolutely not helping.
Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.
The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn’t looking great right now.
This is an 100 year conflict, all the good guys are dead.
Why do people feel this need to be good/bad. Everybody knows by now how complex is the middle east
Hamas killed 1400 civilians.
The IDF has killed about 9500 civilians so far.
I dunno, I think that Hamas may not be the good guys, but they’re definitely the less bad guys.
Give hamas same weaponry and intel as profoundly shit as IDF and israel might as well be one big crater
Okay, but they don’t. And they likely never will.
Right now it’s like a 6yo child that punches you as hard as they can in the balls, and you respond by beating the fuck out of them with a tire iron. The fact that you could straight-up murder the child by shooting them in the fucking face doesn’t mean that breaking every bone in their hands along with both legs to “teach them a lesson” would be appropriate or proportionate.
For sure, but that wasn’t really my point, which was intentions and goals. Hamas is not a “good guy” since they will take every chance of murdering and kidnapping israeli citizens if it’s by high-precision missiles or fucking gliders straight out of a comic book, and israelis aren’t the “good guys” for barraging palestinian civvies while taking tiktoks.
I feel vile for all this good guys bad guys rhetoric ffs gotta take a showa
Oh, I’m not saying that Hamas is good guys. They’re not. They’re terrorists.
But by the scope and scale, by the amount of force that they’re able to bring to bear, and by the sheer number of non-combatants being killed, the IDF is far, far worse. Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.
The Allied forces utilized the tactics of total-war during WWII, with things like the firebombing of Dresden, or Tokyo. The idea was to break the will of the people to fight. Well, spoiler: it doesn’t work. When you kill someone’s whole family, their friends, blow up their house and community, they end up having an even stronger desire to fight back. Just like the bombings of London by Germany increased the resolve of Britons, so did the indiscriminate massacre of civilians by the Allies increase the resolve of the Germans.
The actions of the IDF are going to give Hamas it’s next generation of fighters, people willing to die to kill Israel.
Israel did knowingly bomb a refugee camp. Twice. Kind of hard to defend that behavior as “self defense”.
They most certainly are not.
I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.
Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).
They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.
Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
To answer the question, what they think would happen: Their October 7th attacked achieved everything they wanted.
KSA and Israel we’re coming to an understanding and treaty, that was against the interests of Iran who is in a power struggle with the KSA.
After their attack, it is now politically impossible for the KSA and Israel to have a treaty. That alone justifies this entire conflict from their power politics perspective
They never had any hope of inflicting damage on the Israeli government. They clearly don’t care about their own civilian casualties. In fact The worst the reprisals the better for their recruitment and funding efforts.
Probably not directly related to the rationale for their attack, but it got them some ancillary support, it removed Russia’s aggression from the news media cycle. Which probably got them some favor in those circles.
From a media perspective, this has been a massive Boone for their campaign. They more or less had disappeared from international headlines for the last 10 years. Now everybody is talking about the genocide, and the ethnic cleansing. They’re going to pay very dearly for it, but that’s more media attention than they’ve had for a decade.
Ok yes I can follow that. The cynical thing is that in none of the reasons the Palestinian people are central. Those are victimized by both the Israelis and Hamas, following this rationale.
An extra cynical level is that the wished of the extreme right Israelis and Hamas are the same. To keep this war going indefinitely, not matter the cost of human life.
In what kind of setting would this be proposed? ‘listen we might invite genocidal terror on our own people, but Russia needs some radio silence and we crave media attention’ and everyone involved going like ‘that’s absolutely worth it brother’.
Maybe I’m too naive, I cannot see the tactical gain in that perspective. Thanks though, for good counter points. It helps me trying to make some kind of sense of this.
It’s straight Machiavelli politics.
I highly recommend you read, or listen to, The Prince by Machiavelli. It’s a very short read, but helps you get in the right frame of mind for this type of politicking
Yeah I know Machiavelli, I don’t remember suicidal tactics, though, and certainly not playing according to ones worst enemies playbook.
But mass media wasn’t around in the Renaissance…
The whole philosophy is how to get the outcomes you want, any means are justified.
Saying person X is playing into person Ys playbook is making huge assumptions about their goals.
We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.
We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.
And I thank you for that exposition, however cynical it does give some reason to what appears madness.
But if it comes to serving the people of Palestine they aren’t really doing that, rather the opposite.
Have Hamas ever heard of endings? It’s the last of a species before it goes extinct.
