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Germany never underwent denazification.
It’s simple: Germany always does what Israel wants.
You know, because of our history.
There are many people (especially the older generation) who think we as Germans can’t say anything bad about Israel no matter what they do.
I think it is understandable, but it is also a little sad. Germans are good people and they are carrying a pretty big bag on the back. Israel will end cleaning from palestinians gaza and in 2 years nobody will care about what happened.
What is understandable about germany’s actions or inactions to the ongoing genocide?
I understand that after everything they did, a big chunk of the German population is reluctant to move a finger against israel.
I do not think anyone expects Germany to say anything bad about Israel. The problem is that they went on to defend what Israel is doing. Germany did not need to speak, yet they chose to in favour of Israel.
The basic idea and institutional tenets of the German policy of remembering the Holocaust are sound and correct. They are quite literally a model for other societies who are descended from horrible horrible people. Like I wish the US and Canada did a fraction of what German does to acknowledge and honour their own very dark past of colonization and genocide.
It seems however that one particular thing has gone very wrong: they have adopted a bizarre definition of anti-semitism that precludes most opposition to the state of Israel, even when Israel does plainly indefensible things. And because we are talking about Germans, for whom rules really fucking matter, this has lead them to some truly bizarre situations such as persecuting Jews who criticize Israel as antisemitic.
And when Israel does step over the line, and Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholars, like Omer Bartov, are telling you this has started to really stink of genocide, the Germans find themselves in an impossible bind, which they resolve in the shittiest way possible by taking a side and condemning the other side as antisemitic.
They could and should have plainly said: this is a complex matter, but we trust the ICJ, we will wait for their determination, no further comment. That would have been an entirely honourable position for them to take. But no, they forced themselves into a position of having to defend one of the two litigants, like a caricature of an annoying white saviour “ally”, like the worst caricature of the male nice guy “feminist” who mansplains feminism to women.
Germany can very well be an authority when it comes to far right antisemitism. If they say a right wing group is anti-semitic, I am by default inclined to believe them. But when it comes to criticizing Israel, when there are multi-dimensional nuances and complexities, and when Israel itself is under a right wing extremist government, Germany is far from an authority that should have any fucking say about which Jewish public voice, like Masha Gessen, is … being anti-Semitic.
Germans 🤝 genocide
Maybe because its not a genocide?
I heard a newspaper opinion piece in the radio here in German that clearly didn’t know the difference between genocide and holocaust. I mean, c’mon, read a book before you publish a newspaper!
There were lots of genocides in our history, but only one Holocaust and there always will be one Holocaust, even in future history, where more genocides are bound to happen, sadly.
I am German, though raised mostly in Brazil, Colombia and the USA. The Holocaust is still THE genocide in recent history. “The Nazis” is a beloved trope in the media, in order to unmistakably portray pure evil, never able to redeem itself.
Being raised in different countries, made me create very little nationalistic feelings for any country. But still, i feel the weight of what was done in WW2 … How could we do this, especially the apathy in the population. Come on, from a certain point, everybody must have known, what Hitler’s plan was.
We all know this, but there is no answer as to how this could happen, since Germans are not like this. How could we be ok with this and, as records show, proudly stand by it? It’s something looming in the background of germany’s daily life.
Nobody wants something like this to happen again, but the uncertainty of how it was possible in past, makes it really difficult to even deal with this.
This surely will change as fine passes by and future generations won’t have the Holocaust as something that happened to their parents generation.
To publicly say that Israel is going bad things, specially genocide, is something no german will be able to do easily.
The commitment given to Israel by Germany and also the USA, was a noble and only correct action in the past, but to be real, became a fucking mindmelting Problem now.
If this would be happening 200 years from now? Germany and USA would be going into this, without the much too recent WW2 baggage.
Why does it appear what your saying is, the novelty and or uniqueness of the tragedy of the Holocaust is and for some short time will be, the awfullest and worst loss of human life in recent history? Where do you get the audacity to make a claim like that, do you realty think without asking others throughout the world you can even begin to make such a claim? It’s because you’re german and feel really bad and learned from your mistakes and of course are sorry and this gives you a keen insight over others who are not part of a culture or society where genocide is even on the table?
I for one cannot accept it prima facie. Why would my proximity and knowledge of awful terrible events be the demarcator between whether it is or is not the worst?? Why is the convenience of checks notes it happening within the lifetimes of my immediate ancestors a useful metric besides convenience?
It’s this disgusting platitudes and preposition of “having a keen insight” also called smugness or knowing better or speaking platitudes which foments the stage and discussion for such idealistic rhetoric, devoid of trivial empirical claims, which increases the preponderance of having your voice and others like it anywhere near the centre of the stage; where, what do ya know, it’s been for the last century-and-a-half.
Let others from cultures who have no genocide on their hands speak, you and your ilk have been tolerated and have said more than enough. You’re given an inch and take a mile.
Congratulations on writing the most pompous, pretentious and condescending pile of shit that anyone is likely to see all week. Get over yourself.
nice, that’s what i was going for; appreciate the validation cde
Germany is the expert on this. When they point out that the allegations are bullshit, that’s an opinion worth listening to. When Iran, South Africa and the rest of the proxys make those claims, maybe not worth the same value even if it aligns with your tik tok inspired understanding of the situation.
Let’s listen to the people who literally did the holocaust on issues of genocide /s
Yes, quite literally. They understand what’s at stake for society as well or better than anyone on the planet right now.
They’re also a good example of how deradicalization efforts can be effective, not perfect but effective as reestablishing a modern liberal democracy. Gaza will need something other than what they currently have for an education system if they are to develop into anything other than a terrorist enclave.
Yes, quite literally. They understand what’s at stake for society as well or better than anyone on the planet right now.
Really? More than jewish holocaust survivors and their descendents? Get a fucking grip.
It is embarrassing that anyone upvoted this nonsense.
They’re also a good example of how deradicalization efforts can be effective, not perfect but effective as reestablishing a modern liberal democracy.
Are you living in the reality where Germany doesn’t have a far right extremism problem, and where denazification was actually successful?
Gaza will need something other than what they currently have for an education system if they are to develop into anything other than a terrorist enclave.
Yes, radicalization happens because of bad education, and not because Israel keeps stealing their land and killing them.
There are Holocaust survivors who believe it’s a genocide, they’re absolutely worth listening to. There are survivors who have devoted their lives to the issue who are saying it’s not, they’re absolutely worth listening to. That you’re only willing to listen to those who agree with you is part of the problem. The guy standing for Israel, has stood before this same court in the past but all of a sudden he’s not a valid expert? Get a grip.
As I pointed out, the efforts aren’t perfect they’re ongoing. Germany is still clearly working on it, they’re also struggling with right wing immigration issues and a host of other issues. None of that takes away from the turnaround they’ve done and continue to do.
Yes. People aren’t born to hate they’re taught to hate. If you’re going to act like kids in Gaza aren’t taught to hate in school, and in training camps then you’re either defending terrorists or you’re just ignorant. Education that doesn’t include systemic Antisemitic curriculum has proven effective in neighboring countries at reducing radicalization. The people of Gaza deserve that same chance.
Yes. People aren’t born to hate they’re taught to hate. If you’re going to act like kids in Gaza aren’t taught to hate in school, and in training camps then you’re either defending terrorists or you’re just ignorant.
If you think that kids and Gaza need to be taught to hate when the colonizer is out there already teaching them through violence youre just ignorant. If you want to stop training camps existing in the first place, stop the settler colonial project.
Read Fanon liberal.
So you’re saying that you think the curriculum and education, that involves coloring books showing the shooting of Jews and hands on training with weapons for elementary school children isn’t a problem?
On a technical note, Jews didn’t colonize Judea. They’ve been there since before the Arabs. They decolonized the region, Palestine and Gaza is literally a colony in practice.
So you’re saying that you think the curriculum and education, that involves coloring books showing the shooting of Jews and hands on training with weapons for elementary school children isn’t a problem?
Sure it is a problem, and it isnt going to solved until Israel stops being a settler colonial apartheid state or they entirely murder or displace every Palestinian. I’m guessing you prefer the latter?
On a technical note, Jews didn’t colonize Judea. They’ve been there since before the Arabs. They decolonized the region, Palestine and Gaza is literally a colony in practice.
What not ever reading a book on colonial theory does to a motherfucker
We are all from Africa, but if you went to Libya and started killing people and claiming their land as your own, you’d be a fucking settler. So to with Israel.
Well, they’ve only killed 1% of Gazans, surely that’s not enough to worry about their intentions!
And wounded or mailed many more! Not to mention making large parts of the strip uninhabited and leaving hundreds of thousands without homes.
Thats not the definition of a genocide… Germany killed 1 % of the french population in WW2 and its wasn’t a genocide.
A genocide is characterized by the intention to annihilate a people. And while the far right in Israel is voicing support for a genocide, the current offensive is definitely not a genocide. This doesn’t mean that its not against international law or just. But it simply doesnt fit the definition of a genocide – no matter how often you call it that way.
That is what he says, it’s time to look into the intentions. And saying that it is just far right fringe figures that are making genocidal statements is a nice way to play with the facts, because the far right is currently in power in Israel. The SA case at the ICJ contains a long segment of quotes from Israeli officials and ministers making genocidal statements on the record.
To add to this, western governments are fully aware that Israel is breaking international law (and proud of it), because they refuse to answer any questions on this topic. For example David Cameron called on Israel to allow for fresh water to enter Gaza, implying that Israel is currently blocking this. Blocking access to drinking water is in violation of international law, when pressed on this Cameron said he was quote “not a lawyer”, and said he could not remember if he has been shown any evidence of violations of international law by Israel (as if that is something you would forget).
The west is showing that a rules based international order only applies for the global south, many people in the west might be too stupid or ignorant to see this but outside of the west this is doing irreparable damage to the credibility of the west.
Have you read the articles of the genocide convention?
The west at the beginning: Gaza is not a concentration camp, they have (a little) food and water and a “safe zone” in the south!
The west now: You have to kill at least 6 million for it to classify as genocide
800,000 to 1,000,000. That’s how many Tutsis were killed by the Hutus in the Rwandan genocide of 1994.
/s in case that isn’t blatantly obvious
The “journalism” about israel/gaza here in germany is a complete shame across the board. German media, even (or especially) the publicly funded media, literally try to hide the discussions that the rest of the world is having about this war. Things like these: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
And of course they are failing. Also, whenever something happens that they can’t ignore, they use euphemisms to describe war crimes of the israli side instead of just stating the facts. Many journalists are literally scared to lose their jobs if they report to honestly about this conflict. It’s insane.
Journalists who are afraid of speaking truth to power are not doing their job. I would tell them “Get fired if you must, fuck your job - you’re a journalist, not a lobby boy.”
He was a lobby boy, she said “lose your jobby, boy.” He wasn’t good enough for her.
Now he’s gone apologist, so she turned and balled her fist. Fascism shouldn’t get support.
Suuuuuper easy to say when it’s not your ability to pay rent on the line.
I’m sorry, why do you in particular have some keen insight or experience or knowledge which allows you to speak for these folks anymore than the other commenter?
EDIT: I should clarify, it would be very very easy to not do this; there, I did it now, there I didn’t do it again, I can keep this going. Can you specify why in-and-of-itself supporting an unambiguous apartheid regime and settler-colonial state engaged in documented genocide over decades is not, again, in-and-of-itself enough to not support or write on or for it??
Some jobs are not a mere job, they are a societal need and a calling. Should we accept doctors who would prefer to keep their job if it meant giving substandard care?
That’s an extreme example maybe, but given the state of corporate news media and the effect it’s had on society, I’ll stand by it.
We can all make valid points here and there, at the end of the day there’s gotta be food on the table.
It does rather underpin the value of strong social safety nets, doesn’t it? When the only way to survive is to keep your job, it’s not essentially different than forced labor.
I agree. At the moment i am keeping my job, but would rather take a small timeout, like 3 months. Just relax and take my time to think things over. The pandemic took everything i had set aside and the inflation has me spending my whole salary for the month. I could only quit this job if i already have another starting the next day, there’s no way to spend even a week without income.
So, yeah atm it feels like forced labor.
That’s why I say, fuck a UBI, we need a UBO, Universal Basic Outcome.
The German Media is funded by via a fee and is controlled by an NGO.
And I have no Idea what you are talking about, Deutschland Funk talks about the death in Palestine quite often. And how Israel is not tunening down their Attacks and how Shipments of Aid being blocked.
They report very neutral you could even say emotionless. Because they have no need for seeking attention or shock Images because they don’t need to sell their News and Articles.
Trust me, we are very well informed on what is going on in Gaza and how Israel is starving the Region while bombing it to shred. Our News network is pretty good only our politicians seem unwilling to talk about this
The public-funded-Media does a good job there!
https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/uno-bericht-zu-kriegsverbrechen-aus-dem-gaza-krieg-erwartet-100.html
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/afrika/gaza-kriegsverbrechen-un-100.html
Man muss zwischen “innerem” und “äußerem” Mainstream unterscheiden. Der innere Mainstream sind z.B. viel verkaufte Tageszeitungen, sowie Fernsehnachrichten, “politische” Talkshows und vielleicht Nachrichten bei Unterhaltungsradiosendern. Deutschlandfunksendungen, sowie Investigativformate (Monitor, Frontal 21, Panorama,…) leisten oft sehr gute Arbeit, aber fliegen verhältnismäßig unter dem Radar. Ich finde es berechtigt, die quotenstarken öffentlichrechtlichen Abendnachrichten (Tagesthemen, Heute) im Fernsehen mit anderen Ländern zu vergleichen (z.B. BBC, PBS, CNN) und in diesem Vergleich zeigt sich sehr deutlich, wie das Thema in Deutschland komplett anders und sehr einseitig behandelt wird.
Ich gebe dir recht, was den DLF betrifft, der rettet die Öffentlichrechtlichen in der Hinsicht immer, dass die sagen können “guck, wurde doch berichtet” wenn jemand Kritik übt. Also wer sich informieren will, kann das hier auf jeden Fall auch in den Deutschen Medien, aber die quotenstärksten Formate, die die allgemeine Diskussion von Themen am meisten prägen sind in vielerlei Hinsicht beschämend schlecht.
(Ah Gott sei Dank du sprichst deutsch! Eine Diskussion auf englisch darüber ist etwas knifflig zumal es kaum Artikel über die deutsche Medienlandschaft auf englisch gibt 😂)
Bei mir ist es vielleicht genau deswegen umgekehrt 🤔 Ich schaue kein Fernsehen und somit auch nicht Tagesschau und bekomme daher meine Nachrichten eher vom DLF und deren Unterformaten. Daher bin ich und die meisten meiner Freunde sehr darüber informiert. Aber in der Tagesschau usw. kommt dazu nichts?
Geht mir genau so. Ich informiere mich hauptsächlich über Podcasts und höre auch gerne DLF Sendungen als Podcast (Nachrichten, Der Tag, Hintergrund, manchmal auch Kontrovers). Wenn ich mal Abendnachrichten oder auch politische Talkshows im Fernsehen sehe, platzt mir aber regelmäßig der Kragen.
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wegen dem vielfach widerlegtem Schwachsinn, der dort faktenbasierten Argumenten scheinbar ebenbürtig gegenüber steht und
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U.A. im Falle dieses Konfliktes, wegen der sehr einseitigigen Berichterstattung, welche sich immer in der gewählten Sprache und oft auch in der Auswahl und Gewichtung der Themen ganz klar zeigt. Wie gesagt, es ist, als würden die Versuchen, unvermeidbare Diskussionen, die sowieso auf der ganzen Welt geführt werden, sowie schwierige, ambivalente Bewertungen, von den Deutschen Zuschauer*innen fernzuhalte. Dadurch soll wohl ein möglichst geschlossenes Weltbild vermitteln und den Leuten (größtenteils im fortgeschrittenen Rentenalter) die Welt erklärt werden, anstatt ihnen die Möglichkeit zu geben, sich eine Meinung zu bilden und sich weiter zu informieren. Ich vermute, dass eine der Ursachen dafür ist, dass diese Art von Nachrichten höhere Einschaltquoten bringen, was auch die Öffis nicht ganz ignorieren können.
Ziemlich gut diskutiert und anhand von Clips gezeigt (auch im Vergleich zu internationalen anderen Medien), wurde das im Aufwachen!-Podcast, Folgen 456 und 457. Die Podcasts sind sehr lang, haben aber Kapitelmarken. Dazu sei noch erwähnt, dass diverse Redakteur*innen aus den Öffis, denen das selbst auffällt, die aber dagegen nichts ausrichten können, die Podcaster in ihrer Betrachtung bestärkt und ihnen für das Aufzeigen des Problems gedankt haben. Natürlich nicht öffentlich, denn das Thema ist in Deutschland einfach ein Minenfeld.
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Thats simply incorrect. For example ‘Deutschlandfunk Der Tag’ did a long series (~5 hours) about the impact of the war on Palestinians living under Hamas occupation during the war and their feelings towards Israel. They even did a Meta-report ‘How much attention does the dying in Gaza get in german media’ where they interviewed Salma Abuzaina, a Palestine activist in germany.
Maybe you just don’t consume public funded media if you haven’t heard any report about it. The conflict between reporting on Palestinian deaths and Isreali deaths without negating the suffering of any of the parties is a huge topic in german media.
See my other german comment for a reply to exactly that. I know that DLF is mostly doing a good job but that’s not my point. Sorry, but its to tedious for me to keep discussing this in english.
