Corporate social media may be dying, but that’s only one small part of the Internet.
Yeah. The unpleasant situation this person is describing is also described by the Dark Forest Internet theory, which also includes more of a plausible solution, as opposed to purely terror and resignation.
I don’t think anyone’s ditching mainstream social media en masse though are they? Sure a bunch of us have but let’s be honest 90% of Lemmy/mastodon users are of a very similar demographic and not exactly a huge chunk of the population
It is ok. I actually prefer the internet as a niche phenomenon. I was on it and I was the only one, and I was cool with that because it had all kinds of nerd stuff. Now it’s all normal people stuff and hostile nonsense and money, and I’d kind of like to just have the unpopular nerd internet back.
I’ve been watching the Internet die since I was 10 years old. Fucker’s really draggin’ it out, being all dramatic n shit.
I always find responses like this funny. You know how old you are, but (mostly) nobody reading the comment does. You could be anywhere from 11 to 50!
capitalism too, I’ve been hearing that we’re in the “late stage” for a long time now
the corporate-owned part, hopefully. and I think we’re actually witnessing the renaissance of the small, users controlled one.
lets just hope we are not caught in the bot shitstorm.
Lemmies unite!
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insightful question,
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it isnt just the internet, in case you hadn’t noticed, it is ALL civil-rights that are being gutted, in the enshittocene.
“once the infection has moved the ‘fulcrum’, the balance between the involuntary-host & the infection, far enough, it can then switch from symbiosis to totalitarian rampaging growth-at-any-cost, excluding-all-vital-functions, enforcing its parasitic & fatal consumption, killing the patient”
A tipping-point is being crossed, though it’s taking a few decades ( planets are slower than individual-animals, in experiencing infection ).
It’s our rendition of The Great Filter, in-which we enforce that we can’t be viable, because factional-ideology “needs” that we break all viability from the world.
Or, to be plainer, it is our race’s unconscious toddler setting-up a world-breaking tantrum, to “BREAK GOD AND MAKE GOD OBEY” its won’t-grow-up.
Read Daniel Kahneman’s “Thinking Fast & Slow”, & see how the imprint->reaction mind, Kahneman1 ( he calls it “System 1”, but without context, that’s meaningless ) substitutes easy-to-answer questions for the actual questions…
The more you read that book, the most important psychology book in the whole world, right now, the more obvious it is that Ideology/prejudice/assumption-river/religion/dogma is doing all it can to break considered-reasoning ( Kahneman2 ) from the whole world, and it is succeeding/winning.
“Proletariat dictatorship” the Leninists want, “populist dictatorship” the fascists want, religious totalitarianism, political totalitarianism, ideological totalitarianism, etc, it’s all Kahneman1 fighting to break considered-reasoning from the whole world, and the “disappearing” of all comments criticizing Threads from the Threads portion of the internet … is perfectly normal.
It’s simply highjacking of our entire civilization, by the systems which want exclusive dominion.
Have you checked your youtube account’s settings section, in the history section, to see what percentage of your comments have been disappeared??
Do it.
Everybody do it.
Discover how huge a percentage of your contribution to the “community” got disappeared, because it wasn’t what their algorithm finds usefully-sensationalistic, or usefully-pushing-whatever-they-find-acceptable.
I spent a few hours deleting ALL my comments from there, after seeing that around 1/2 of what I’d contributed had been disappeared.
There are a few comments now, but … they’ll be removed, either by yt or by me, soon.
No point in pretending that meaning is tolerable, anymore, you know?
Only fakery & hustle remains, for most of the internet, & that transformation’s going to be complete, in a few years.
1984, but for-profit.
Sorry for the … dim … view, but it’s been unfolding for a couple decades, & it’s getting blatent, fast.
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Recent big sites that closed down: Jezebel, Pitchfork, Vice, Popular Science, and my hopes for the Messenger were dashed when they announced their demise: https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4440773-news-startup-the-messenger-shutting-down/
LA Times and the like are hit with layoffs and – worse – Sinclair heavyweight added the Balitmore Sun to the list of ‘compromised’ media outlets: https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2024/01/15/baltimore-sun-sold-david-smith-sinclair/
That said, there are always new sites, but gaining trust and reputation takes time.
Social sites seem doomed to crest and then fall. Digg? MySpace? Friendster? Who remembers the good old days of (moderated) UseNet? Do we want any of those back? Would any of them have remained were it not for spam/bad-actors?
Habsburg AI? My sides went into orbit. I didn’t know that I needed to know this expression!
I don’t fully agree with the author but that was an enjoyable read. The initial chunk about Reddit is mostly there to provide context for the general trends and directions that the internet is following; the “core” is the impact of generative models into the internet.
Unlike the author, I don’t think that the internet is dying, but instead entering a new phase that resembles in some aspects the old internet: search has become unreliable and those mega-platforms enshittify themselves to death, so people shift to smaller (often non-commercial) platforms and find new content to follow by the hyperlinks provided by other people. It’s a lot like the internet before Google Search.
If that’s correct, the impact of those generative models was only to speed up the process, not to cause it. At the end of the day the main concern is that it works a lot like spam - as undesired content avoiding being detected as such, and tweaked to steal your attention from the content that you actually want to consume. And spam is not something new for us (or the internet), what’s new is GAFAM and their vassals (Twitter, Reddit etc.) eating it for lunch.
The author does have a way with words lol. I love this paragraph in particular, emphasis mine:
As we speak, the battle that platforms are fighting is against generative spam, a cartoonish and obvious threat of outright nonsense, meaningless chum that can and should (and likely will) be stopped. In the process, they’re failing to see that this isn’t a war against spam, but a war against crap, and the overall normalization and intellectual numbing that comes when content is created to please algorithms and provide a minimum viable product for consumers. Google’s “useless” results problem isn’t one borne of content that has no meaning, but of content that only sort of helps, that is the “right” result but doesn’t actually provide any real thought behind it, like the endless “how to fix error code X” results full of well-meaning and plausibly helpful content that doesn’t really help at all.
And he describes exactly what I have to deal with on the regular, “content that only sort of helps” that “steals your attention from the content you actually want.” Even moving from Google to DDG has only mitigated this problem, it hasn’t fully gone away.
But yeah, one of his conclusions seems to be the Death of the Hyperlink? Which, I mean, not even LLM’s can kill that. I doubt
<a hrefis going away any time soon.And he describes exactly what I have to deal with on the regular, “content that only sort of helps”
Hello, my name’s dgriffith. I’m a Fediverse Support community member, and I’m here to help.
Have you tried running sfc /scannow and making sure your antivirus is up to date? That usually fixes the issue that you are describing.
If that does not help, a complete system reinstall often solves the problem you have.
Please mark this comment as useful if it helps you.
Regarding the death of hyperlinks, it’s probably more a case of “why bother clicking on yet another link that leads me to another page of crap?”.
That is, it used to be the case that you’d put information on the web that was useful and people would link to it, now 80 percent of it seems to be variations of my “helpful” text above, SEO’d recipe sites, or just AI hallucinations of stuff scraped from other sites.
Unlike the author, I don’t think that the internet is dying, but instead entering a new phase that resembles in some aspects the old internet: search has become unreliable and those mega-platforms enshittify themselves to death, so people shift to smaller (often non-commercial) platforms and find new content to follow by the hyperlinks provided by other people. It’s a lot like the internet before Google Search.
It is definitely feeling like this is a trend, we are moving back to more curated ways of sharing information.
The Fediverse feels like a return to the old, open Web before it was captured by Big Tech, just with new bells and whistles attached. With all the enshittification, it seems like it is well-placed to be the solution to the problem. It’s not there yet but it’s a start.
Let’s hope that the new bells and whistles* increase its resilience enough against Big Tech control over the internet. Otherwise we’ll get into a cyclical situation.
*namely, federation and other anti-centralisation aspects of design.
The aspect that makes the fediverse and in particular reddit-likes uniquely adapted to growing in this harsh corporate hellscape has everything in my opinion to do with the critical early seed phase of communities.
When you make a website with its own forum, you have huge friction to overcome with the network effect… but if you are plugging into a federated network than all of a sudden being a tiny community on lemmy with 2 or 3 people becomes an invitation to users passing by who already have an account to start a conversation and create that spark that will grow (slowly) into a real community.
Consider the minimum viable population of users in a community, how many people does there need to be in a room before that warm feeling of a gathering sets in with comfortable conversation naturally occurring? For federated lemmy communities (and similar Reddit-likes) federation effectively lowers that number by a significant amount since it puts doors everywhere that people can spontaneously wander through and contribute small amounts to help kindle a spark and get the community going.
This changes the paradigm of “social media platform metabolism” if you will, it facilitates much more organic early growth in communities.
Betteridge’s law of headlines answers this succintly: no
The headline is 6 words. The article is 3,606 words. Expressed as a percentage, the amount of content you have decided to address comes to a grand total of 0.16%.
If you have no interest in interacting with the content, it would be simple enough to state that. But to dismiss the entirety of the article based on 0.16% of the content seems rather short sighted to me. Do you have any thoughts to share about the article?
Nah, I’m allergic to clickbait. If it had a better, more serious title, I’d read it.
If you’re the author of the article, you have to find that line between interesting and clickbait. Sensationalist titles like that are like smearing a distasteful substance on the cover of a book. No matter what you write in that book, I’m not picking it up.
Possible titles (without even reading the article) that would make me click with an open mind
- Threats to the open web
- How much has the web changed since $date?
- Where does the web go after $event?
- The future of the web - an opinion
- How do monopolies affect the internet?
That’s more like it, this is a discussion that people can actually interact with! I am not the author, and I agree with you that the title isn’t great, but I am interested in discussing what they wrote and appreciate that you’ve now at least opened the door to a discussion on clickbait titles rather than just leaving a one sentence “gotcha”.
I would not have clicked if it had any of those titles. And I do actually agree with the title. We are watching the death of the internet. It will never be again what it was. And what it is now is a clean white washed drip fed version of the expansive and deep knowledge of everything that it once was.
I think the advancement of LLMs, which culminated in the creation of ChatGPT, is this generation’s Eternal September. In a couple of decades, we’ll talk about how the internet “used to be” before free, public websites were abandoned because our CAPTCHAs could no longer filter out bots and device attestation and continuous mictopayments became the only way to keep platforms spam free.
Even when Microsoft and OpenAI stop hemorrhaging money by giving away stuff like ChatGPT for basically free, the spam farms will run this stuff on their own soon. I expect a wave of internet users to get upset and call paying for used services “enshittification”, because people don’t realise how much running these AI models actually costs.
I think this will also start the transition of not only AI being sold like Netflix or like mobile data caps, but also to an “every company that doesn’t get the most expensive AI will start lagging behind” economy. After all, AI only needs to cost a little less than the manpower it’s replacing. Any internet facing company needs good AI to outwit the AI trying to abuse cheap or free services (like trials) that they may offer.
We’re probably lucky that AI spammers haven’t discovered the Fediverse yet, but if the Fediverse does actually become big enough for mainstream use, we’ll see Twitter level reaction spam in no time, and no amount of CAPTCHAs will be able to stop it.
Part of what makes Twitter, Reddit, etc. such easy targets for bot spammers is that they’re single-point-of-entry. You join, you have access to everyone, and then you exhaust an account before spinning up 10 more.
The Fediverse has some advantages and disadvantages here. One significant advantage is that – particularly if, when the dust finally settles, it’s a big network of a large number of small sites – it’s relatively easy to cut off nodes that aren’t keeping the bots out. One disadvantage, though, is that it can create a ton of parallel work if spam botters target a large number of sites to sign up on.
A big advantage, though, is that most Fediverse sites are manually moderated and administered. By and large, sites aren’t looking to offload this responsibility to automated systems, so what needs to get beaten is not some algorithmic puzzle, but human intuition. Though, the downside to this is that mods and admins can become burned out dealing with an unending stream of scammers.
We had a bunch of Japanese teenagers run scripts on their computers and half the Fediverse was full of spam. If someone really cared about spamming, this shit wouldn’t stop as quickly.
No Fediverse tools have sufficient spam prevention measures right now. The best we have is individually blocking every server, but there are thousands of servers that can be abused by a very basic account creation + spam script.
Manal moderation will lead to small/single user instances getting barred from participating, leading back to centralisation on a few vetted servers. We need automated tools, across all parts of the Fediverse, or the network will be in a constant flux between waves of spam and overbearing defederation to fight the spam waves. Especially once spammers start bypassing CAPTCHAs.
We had a bunch of Japanese teenagers run scripts on their computers and half the Fediverse was full of spam. If someone really cared about spamming, this shit wouldn’t stop as quickly.
The upside of that attack is that instance Admins had to raise their game and now most of the big instances are running anti-spam bots and sharing intelligence. Next time we’ll be able to move quickly and shut it all down, where this time we were rather scrambling to catch up. Then the spammers will evolve their attack and we’ll raise our game again.
It’s true that the toolset isn’t here now, and the network is actually very fragile at the moment.
It’s also true that platform builders don’t seem to want to deal with these kinds of tools, for raisins.
But it’s also true that temporary blocks are both effective and not that big of a deal.
I’m not sure why you’d think that manual moderation will lead to small instances getting barred, though. Unless you’re predicting that federation will move to whitelisting, rather than blacklisting? That’s historically been the tool of corporate services, not personal or community ones.
If it really ramps up, we could share block lists too, like with ad blockers. So if a friend (or nth-degree friend) blocks someone, then you would block them automatically.
We’re probably lucky that AI spammers haven’t discovered the Fediverse yet, but if the Fediverse does actually become big enough for mainstream use, we’ll see Twitter level reaction spam in no time, and no amount of CAPTCHAs will be able to stop it.
I was thinking about this the other day. We might have to move to a whitelist federation model with invite-only instances at some point.
The downside of that approach is that AI can pretend to be humans wanting to join quite well. It’s possible to set up a lobster.rs like system where there’s a tree of people you’ve invited so admins can cull entire spam groups at once, but that also has its downsides (i.e. it’s impossible to join if none of your friends have already joined, or if you don’t want to attach your online socials to your friends).
where there’s a tree of people you’ve invited.
And that is how you get singular point of view echo chamber.
Most of the internet is made up of echo chambers now even though anyone and everyone can access a majority of it. I don’t think being selective in who we allow into communities worsens the pre-existing echo chamber issue. If anything it may help to be more selective. It can sometimes be impossible to tell the difference between trolls, bots, and real people, so I feel like we assume every person we disagree with is a troll or bot. The issue with that is that we may be outright dismissing real opinions. In theory, everyone in a selective community is a real person who is expressing their true thoughts and feelings.
I expect a wave of internet users to get upset and call paying for used services “enshittification”, because people don’t realise how much running these AI models actually costs.
I am so tired of this bullshit. Every time I’ve turned around, for the past thirty years now, I’ve seen some variation on this same basic song and dance.
Yet somehow, in spite of supposedly being burdened with so much expense and not given their due by a selfish, ignorant public, these companies still manage to build plush offices on some of the most expensive real estate on the planet and pay eight- or even nine-figure salaries to a raft of executive parasites.
When they start selling assets and cutting executive salaries, or better yet laying them off, then I’ll entertain the possibility that they need more revenue. Until then, fuck 'em.
These companies collect investment money from either investors or other parts of the company that do make money. They give away their product for free to create a user base, and figure out proper monetization later.
When the economy takes a dive and borrowing money costs money again (for years, banks had negative interests for huge loans, which means they paid you to take their money) the funds of venture capitalists suddenly dry up and companies like Netflix and Uber suddenly need to raise prices
Nine figure salaries are nothing compared to how much training AI costs. The same goes for most services, to be honest.
I don’t get where the entitlement comes from, to be honest. Why should companies keep giving away shit for free? They’re neither governments nor charities. These companies are flushing billions down the drain giving away free stuff to get marker share and attract more money they can put into free services, until they can grow no more. That’s unsustainable and impossible to compete with fairly.
It’s good for the internet to cost money. If customers need to pay for the stuff they’re using, we maintain the possibility for fair competition. Without competition, billionaires and hedge funds control the internet. If you demand everything to come for free, you’re only playing into Google’s/Facebook’s/Microsoft’s/Apple’s hands.
What “entitlement?”
I don’t expect anyone to start a web site or service or to give me or anyone else access to it at all, much less for free.
I’m just making the very narrow point that when a company chooses to do all of that, and manages to make enough money to build a plush corporate headquarters on some of the most expensive real estate on the planet and pay its executives millions or even tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, then starts crying about not making enough money, that’s self-evident bullshit.
If anybody’s acting"entitled" in that scenario, it’s the greedy corporate weasels who spend billions on their own privilege, then expect us to cover their asses when they come up short.
Die? No there’s no way to put that genie back in the bottle. It might just be a little different going forward.
In other words there’s no unfarting a fart… But the smell may invade in phases
And it might be a little wet
Imagine how wonderful it would be if your butthole could hoover up the shart that you accidentally squeezed out?
What a bad day to have eyeballs.
Ha, suck it PenguinCoder my eyeball day is tomorrow
Yours doesn’t?
What a beautiful thought
The current internet search is becoming obsolete. People are able to tell apart BS, though. This means, there’s a possibility for a smarter filter. Hard to tell whether we will see one in the near-future.
People are able to tell apart BS, though.
Please help me be optimistic. Why do you think this is the case? No matter where I go I see mostly confirmation bias and the lack of even the most basic level of critical thought.
Will we ever stop referring to the Web as “the Internet”?
Whats the difference?
Not sure if a serious question. So forgive me if your question was meant to be a statement.
The internet is a large set of computers connected via two protocols: IP and TCP.
There’s 65000-ish ports (channels) available on the internet.
The web runs on port 80 and 443.
The internet supports all sorts of other traffic too: Time synchronisation, games, file transfer, e-mail, remote login, remote desktops etc. None of these run on the web, but is traffic that runs in parallel to the web.
The distinction is getting blurrier as lots of traffic that used to be assigned (or simple chose) its own port number is now encapsulated in HTTP(s) traffic. But the distinction is definitely not gone.
Where does Lemmy fall on this spectrum? Obviously the website part is 100% web, but I’m accessing Lemmy through a mobile app, so I don’t see any website here.
Well this is what I mean. In the olden days, this would be custom traffic on a custom port. Nowadays it just uses web HTTPS REST calls as API.
Appreciate this, I thought they were both called “the internet”. I knew we called it the worldwide web when I was a kid, but I thought that was just a phrase that fell out of fashion.
The advent of REST API endpoints really muddies everything up when all requests are going over the web.
No.
Given there’s people in this thread incorrectly using “internet” instead of “web”… Probably never.
To be fair, the definition is a bit muddier nowadays. Is Lemmy on the Web? I don’t use it via the website. Bulletin boards used to not be part of the Web, as they pre-date the Web. But nowadays everything is HTTP. There’s so little non-web left, and the vast majority of users never use it, that the Internet is only used for accessing the Web.
BitTorrent is a pretty big part of the Internet though.
But it’s not muddy though. The Internet is the infrastructure that the web runs across. And there are still plenty of other protocols out there beside the web that are in use every single day. Even if the average user were to primarily use the Internet for accessing the web, it doesn’t mean the definitions of the two have become muddy. Interstate 4 is not Walt Disney World, even if you only ever drive I-4 to get to Disney.
