if this becomes actually widely used ill just quit the internet altogether, cause fuuuuuuuck that
The internet would probably split in two. You’ll have the corpo internet that can only be accessed by DRM enabled chrome browsers and… everything else. I can’t see a non profit like Wikipedia turning that garbage on, nor Lemmy and Mastodon. There will still be sites to use (with Firefox or derivatives) and probably a rich ecosystem of mirrored content with the DRM stripped out.
hopefully but we saw this shit before chrome too, remember what happened with internet explorer?
as the saying goes, hopes dies lastAnd it had to get pretty bad before things got better.
Does it tho? Just because thats how it happens most the time doesnt mean that has to be the stays quo
I hope you’re right, we’re using part of that better internet right now.
You’d think fucking with our beer would have been the apocalypse moment
One more time if anyone says that capitalism breeds innovation we need to show them this ¡!
Yeah… They find innovative ways to milk us of our money and attention and annoy the heck out of everyone
restricted capitalism does that. regular capitalism makes monopoly.
This ain’t capitalism, this is going back to a rent based economy.
Aka: Techno Feudalism
Let me just point you to this:
https://doctorow.medium.com/autoenshittification-cb851c2574fb
Paywall!
Does it though? Universities seem to be doing the heavily lifting innovation-wise.
Well yes, but universities certainly do not stop Nestlé from selling their own products so cheap that local businesses (which refused to get bought up by Nestlé) go bankrupt because they can not sell their only product with a loss.
I was responding to the first half “restricted capitalism does that”
What’s your point? Monopoly does not imply innovation.
My point is that captialism doesn’t have as big a role in innovation as many would claim.
Captialism also leads to monopoly when unchecked. I was responding to the first half.
Oh almost like if in capitalism they didn’t say that oligarchys are a problem. What we needed is to send these giants down.
That would prove difficult considering money rules, you can make people do you bidding, make them disappear and suffer little to no consequences.
So what we needed is a decent anti-monopoly, anti-oligarchy force.
Just like when the us gov dismantled AT&T into thousands of smaller different services and that created things like mobile routhers and etc.
Soo the companies like Google (for example), at this point are putting down more inovation than they are bringing into the table.
Problem is not capitalism, it’s all that power centered in the same place. Almost like a dictatorship.
The problem isn’t capitalism, it’s just the system that allows power to be centralized through market forces and used to bribe regulatory bodies. Oh wait…
Shit man I would love to hear how you would stop power concentration in communism or any other form of government…
Well that was when anti trust laws actually worked ! Alphabet , meta etc are literally sucking americans poor. Still we dont see anything !
Tbh as a Climat activist who grew up surrounded by deniers …yhe… the feeling of hopeless is strong. But hey I have been seeing slow and gradual change, when things are getting bad.
At least in your scenario (at the moment) when they go down we might be able to reverse the worse consequences. Unlike climate where we probably just fucked.
Our planet has had good and bad climates , but humans have fucked it intentionally and there seems to be nor reluctance or remorse in the rich to fuck it even more , it will probably end in jeopardising human life , mostly the poor will suffer and die , but i am quite sure that planet will find ways to recover ! Once the humans are gone !
Oh for fuck sake, yes when I say planet I mean the delicate ecosystem that supports all life. See even better I still get downvoated by shit heads
So you want government to do this?
Anarchy please
I mean, it’s all innovation in some way… Just all anti-consumer.
This is innovation though, an internet wide DRM would be quite an impressive technical feat. It’s just not innovation built to benefit you and me, it’s built to benefit Google’s true customers, advertisers
Reddit don’t have IPA on tap anymore?
I don’t want their IPA, I want my Ruby Beer
I think a lot of people here don’t understand the danger of this fully and dismiss it with “Just use Firefox, problem solved”.
Unfortunately, once this becomes widely available, that is once Chrome ships it, websites will start to use it.
Maybe Amazon will just not sell to you anymore when you’re browsing with Firefox?
Maybe YouTube wont serve any videos if you’re using Linux?
Your bank will certainly implement this and only allow Windows 11 with Edge or some shit like that.
Once this is implemented, we will all suffer, even if we’re using better alternatives right now.Technically the idea is that if Chrome has barely any market share (will never happen, but let’s pretend), they cannot implement this as it will anger and lock too many users out of day to day life.
However…
With Google Search and YouTube being by far the most 2 popular websites in the world, I think they still could. The vast majority of people would never give those up and if they’re told to use another program to access them, they absolutely will, meaning in an ideal world with a browser competition, they can easily destroy it immediately.
Google search has become very bad and is easily replaced by basically any search engine. YouTube is still unparalleled though.
Your bank will certainly implement this
My brother in Christ, it was 2020 before my bank supported passwords longer than 8 characters. We have 30 or 40 years before we need to worry about the banks.
Yes, US banks.
Banks in europe are much more up to date with tech.
They have APIs to sink transactions with external providers like nordigen API.
They have 2FA that is linked to your national identity card which is chipped
Nationally used apps that are universal 2FA linked to national IDs that banks, medical, and government services all tap into
Everything is contactless payment nowadays, the US just recently started contactless cards
Inter-bank transfers without external apps like venmo
There are MANY problems with EU people getting their banks to work on a rooted phone.
They will absolutely implement DRM if someone sells the bullshit to them under the illusion of “safety.”
Hell, the US had handwritten “vaccine cards” for covid while European nations even had open source user spinoffs on nationally funded apps linked to national IDs to manage COVID vaccination and testing passes.
Have you ever rooted an android phone?
The google SafteyNet Attestation is the precursor to browser DRM. It’s essentially phone DRM.
There are many banks that have apps that require you to pass at least the basic level attestation, if not the CTS profile matching that fails the moment you modify any system level resources, even the bootloader
luckily you can force disable CTS so it falls back on the basic level, for most apps at least. You will never have access to Google or Samsung pay though, as it actually knows your phone model should support CTS and will autofail if it no longer reports that it does.
Alongside that apps like Pokemon GO and Netflix also require at least basic attestation to function - demonstrating the DRM and anticheat capabilities of such a system.
I find it funny how the most root-resistant app I’ve ever encountered is McDonald’s coupons app. I can trick Google Pay into working on my rooted phone, I tricked Revolut and two national banks. Heck, even my government-issued digital ID was tricky but I eventually got it working despite root and unlocked bootloader, both of which it didn’t like. But McDonald’s? None of the workarounds work whatsoever .
I’m rooted and on LOS and can use any app I need (including banking apps, paypal, and netflix - i don’t use samsung/google pay). The only app i can’t get to work is one stupid food delivery app. It’s weird af.
https://github.com/Magisk-Modules-Repo/MagiskHidePropsConf
This can help you pass CTS. It worked for me. Funny thing is, I don’t even remember which app I did it for. Whatever it was, I ended up not using it after all the trouble. As for my banking apps, they only care about root, so Magisk’s denylist does the job.
Some banks are still running windows 98 internally, admitedly so long as said system isnt connected to the internet it should be fine.
Win 98
This isn’t true, this can’t be true and I refuse to believe it.
@xavier666 @vaultdweler13, it’s true, For internal use with PCs connected to the central server itself and not to the network, it is used for compatibility with corporate software, sometimes still very old Windows. This, when using it on the one hand only in a specialized way and on the other hand only locally, is more than enough. The same in factories in production for the automation of some valve or machinery with repetitive processes, a super-pc with a NASA OS is not needed.
For PCs at workshop, I can understand Win98. The OS is just a bootloader to a single application. But for banking, it’s a terrible security hazard.
@xavier666, only if it is used in subsidiaries where they have to manage money movements over the network, but not in local administrative applications where it is irrelevant, as in all purely local uses. In monoapplications in this area, even an old MsDOS will be worth it.
They have traveled to the Moon with an SO from a Tamagochi.As long as it’s isolated to local use, I guess it’s fine. But if it connects to the internet, may lord have mercy on the firewall.
I sincerely hope that your local ATM never crashes and you never have to see the windows xp logo.
You may think so but hackers have managed to access data on air gapped computers
Lol, not to mention Cobalt and other horrors that are lurking in Legacy systems no one has looked at in 50 years.
I’m thinking mainframe terminals, where the character has to be in the right place on the screen in order to store something in RAM.
Even worse, how many systems are still using punch cards? How often do those cards need to be replaced?
You mean Cobol? I’m literally working on migrating legacy cobol code to ODB for a banking client. I’m loving it (/s)
I’m glad you’re liking it.
Doesn’t that also mean they lose customers or possible transactions which could have made them money?
I wonder if that would be a valid anti trust violition ?
If we lived in a sane country all 4 major tech companies would have already been brought to court over this in like, 2016. (Microsoft for the second time…)
To be fair to America, I don’t think there are any sane countries left. Finland had an actual neo-Nazi as minister and while it didn’t last longer than Truss or even half of it, the party that is ministerial party is still there with similar ideas. They just had forethought to not write 14/88 in an old electoral ad. We are tied for first place still in the least corrupt countries and 5th in most democratic countries.
Did Firefox even say that they would not implement it as well? Are there any informations on that?
They said they would not: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/852
It’s IE6 all over again.
Would apple just roll over on this? Or would they fight to make sure safari is also an option to freely use the internet (or at least severely limiting apples ability to do something similar) And websites that depend on ads, the number of Firefox and safari users have to be greater than the number of users who use ad-blockers. So wouldn’t it negatively affect ad income on websites if they implemented it and cut out all non-chromium browsers?
Encourage Apple’s WebKit to oppose it.
I think apple would figure out some very creative ways to fuck it’s customers, some more.
Plus the paid streaming services adding ads back in and they are all the SAME fucking ads?
🎶 Do what you want because a pirate is a free, you are a pirate! 🎶
I just dusted off my pirate flag, the rising costs of everything has made it impossible for me to do the legal thing.
I’ll start my journey sailing the vast sees upcoming weekend.
Ngl I am so done with streaming services asking for device specs and blocking things on my devices that I pirate stuff anyway !
🎶Yar yar figle di fi🎶
For the millionth time, Stallman was right.
Yep, you send me html, my browser can interpret it any way that I want it to. If I want to ignore all of the image and script tags, I can. I don’t need Chrome or even Chromium. As Stallman says, you should know what is running on your system.
We need to go back to html and css. Using an ad blocker and noscript literally breaks webpages. I just want to read the article! You know the content ppl actually come for
It just occured to me that I wonder how a text browser addresses all this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/25/voters-progressive-trump-harvard-youth-poll-gop/
Just tried it on browsor
But how is all the bloat going to get to you then? HTML with some images is equally functional and loads in a fraction of the time, because it is actually efficient. Nobody could want that could they?
How the fuck are people using the internet without an adblocker?
It is pracitcally impossible to differentiate content from ads. And i was just talking about all the bloat without the ads. Thank you for sharing this, i never thought it’d be this bad.
It’s such a bizarre situation. Either you heavily limit Javascript and basically destroy all web apps or you embrace it and get laughably slow websites with walls of ads that beg you to log in to actually view the page. Like if you look into it, it’s genuinely shocking how much software is a web browser running JS under the hood.
I can see legitimate uses for java script, like popping out a menu. But it seriously needs its capabilities restricted.
needs its capabilities restricted
This is a bad take. How are you gonna do that? Force ECMA to scrap all the functionality deemed ‘bad’? Wave a magic tech wand? At the end of the day JS is a tool, and like any tool it can be abused for nefarious purposes. The issue is that advertisers abuse this tool, and the sites they pay to be shown on allow it. Not because insert scripting language exists.
You can pop out menus with CSS.
That doesn’t mean his strategy and approach is good.
That doesn’t mean his strstegy and approach is good.
Who cares? Whether or not Stallman is a likeable person isn’t what’s important. His ideas are.
The way he presents them and approaches certain subjects is what’s offputting. He’s got this black and white atitude towards the world and how things work, when in reality, everything is just a shade of gray.
Could you give an example?
He says IoT devices are bad. He says most Linux distros are bad just cuz they don’t use everything GPL licensed in them. Says don’t use this, don’t use that, yet the alternatives to what he proposes are… just no usable in the 21st century. Read pages in plain HTML, yeah right 😒.
It’s the lingo he uses, he marks everything as bad, except for GNU or GPL licensed software. And that is off putting to most people and is why many new projects don’t even use the GPL any more, they use MIT or BSD quite more often. The complete lack of any legal support for GPL projects from the FSF is also another reason. “There are just too many, we don’t have enough lawers”. Have you ever thought about, IDK, paying those people? Like you win one lawsuit, make a deal with the owner of the licensed work for him/her to invest part of the winning over to the FSF in order to actually pay these lawers and other people involved in the process. Do the same with every case, and you have yourself a sustainable system. No one wins this way, except those who infrindged the GPL license.
My 2 cents… doesn’t mean that I’m right, but these are one of my personal reasons why I steer away from the FSF and RMS. These people are stuck in bitterness and grudges, no real insentive to offer a viable alternative whatsoever. It’s like the Pale Moon project, except PM is much worse.
That’s the price of internal consistency. Nothing you say is an argument against any of his points, you just don’t want to give up the comforts you’ve gotten used to over the last decades. I get it, I don’t want to either, but our lack of commitment is precisely why companies are able to abuse users so freely.
He’s not giving viable alternatives! He just says “don’t use this, don’t do that”. That’s not constructive at all, just the opposite.
Times have changed, people change, technology changes. I was against using a smart device up until about 3 or 4 years ago, until I realized how way way behind I was behind everyone and how practical it can be. While everyone was just carrying around their phone and took pics of things that they needed to remember, I had to do the same with a camera… not to mention I had to remember to bring it with me every time I might need it (and you can’t always know upfront if you’re gonna need it or not). On the other hand, my phone is always with me, regardless if I need a camera or not.
This is just an example, there are so many other examples that make life easier. RMS and the FSF has nothing to offer, nothing to put on the table as a viable alternative, except “don’t use that”. They could have so much money flowing into the FSF just by copyright lawsuits, they could practically be swimming in money, but no, they decide to do everything on a volentary basis. You can’t win if the playing field is always tilted towards the corps. You can only win if you play with their rules, and their rules are, invest money! They can have enough money to invest in devs as well, devs that will probably make a viable alternative of an OS to actually run on phones and be completely open sources, but… no, that’s against their practices and beliefs 😒.
Well, I’m sorry but, you don’t offer anything, just forbid things. Maybe I really don’t want to use this or that technology, but it makes my life easier, so I’d rather use it than not 🤷. Saying “don’t do this, don’t do that” is the exact same mentality that PM has regarding stuff that doesn’t work with the browser. “Just don’t visit those sites”. What? It’s a browser, it fails at it’s primary purpose, to browse websites. I’m sorry, but that is unacceptable. When your product doesn’t fulfill it’s primary purpose and your only reaction is “just don’t do that”, you need to seriously rethink what you’re doing and in which direction this project is going.
Wait, Google’s doing what now?
They want to implement a “feature” so websites only load for you, if your browser, OS and hardware are deemed “trustworthy” aka you load every ad and malware that the website wants to shove down your throat.
Oh God… I think I’m going to be sick. It’s too easy to see how you could weaponize this against dissenters.
Don’t like something about our product? Have fun being banned from the internet!
Not even dissenters, just people in general. That’s why they’re likening it to DRM. Run something nonstandard on your system (ie Linux)? Get with the program. It’s a continuation of “you don’t own anything, use it how we want you to use it or don’t use it at all.”
Isnt this already a thing with many webapps already , I had to dual boot windows coz some uni websites refused to run detecting linux on my system !
That’s just fucked. I guess I’m lucky that my Uni doesn’t really give a shit. During the pandemic, they were even chill enough for us to use alternative software here and there, since we weren’t allowed to come in and use the PCs on site.
Fuck this goes deeper than I thought
From what I gathered even if u have installed a browser on ur phone that is not signed by play store or app store google may block it , so fennec / bromium and other f droid products google may decide to tag as malicious !
There are times I build my own browser and OS probably in future ( basically building open souce code , sometimes removing ssignatures and enhancements) , I wonder if I will be able to use stuff then !
Or you could just use Firefox? Mozilla has stated that it opposes this stuff.
Firefox is my primary browser on my stable systems , I am talking of the side projects ! There is a good possibility that soon the websites will block forks of firefox and other FOSS projects !
Dont forget the drone tracking bill, remoteID. Louis Rossemann
Stop using chrome. Yes brave is chrome
@nicman24 firefox is not chromium…
Firefox doesn’t use chromium. It uses Gecko, which is an entirely separate codebase.
But that’s also not private as has been claimed as a reason to go FF. The only reason to use FF is only to not use chrome. Not for all the reasons that chrome is bad.
Tor Browser, LibreWolf, and Arkenfox JS are the most secure and private browsers you can get and they’re all based on Firefox. If they’re not private enough for you, I don’t know what is
Firefox uses their own engine IIRC, that’s why more people should be using it so we can get some competition with Chromium.
I think the management’s recent decisions, as well as the removal/lack of power-user features for those users, have moved a lot of people away from Firefox, myself included. They really need to focus on providing really good software, not get caught up in trying to chase trends or forcing services people don’t want. This WIRED article does a good job explaining the issues.
I am keeping an eye on Pulse Browser, which is an experimental fork of Firefox with uBlock Origin pre-installed and some UI customisations. They’ve got a sidebar with “web panels” very much like Vivaldi’s Panels, and they’ve got vertical tabs like Edge. People also seem to be posting suggestions to their discussion page on GitHub. It’s early days, but if they listen and try to implement some of the suggested features to their best ability, it could be a much better Firefox than Firefox itself.
Edit: From Pulse’s Discord, I just found out Mozilla bought Fakespot and are integrating that into Firefox. Some people are definitely going to think that’s bloat.
Thank you for mentioning a *fork of a non-chromium browser with vertical tabs, genuinely something FF would benefit from.
No problem! Tree Style Tabs might also do the job on base Firefox with nested tabs, but it’s not as streamlined as Pulse or Edge, especially if you want to hide the tab bar (you have to edit .CSS files).
edit: okay enabling both features, moving the main side panel to the right and enable tab collapsing makes a great space-saving setup.
edit 2: now i’m using pulse as my main browser
Yeah but if you dont support Mozilla Firefox the project will run out of resources and only one engine will be left chromium.
Oh, I support Gecko. More browser engines to compete against Chromium the better. I just can’t support Firefox in its current state right now. Thankfully, Pulse seems to be picking up the slack in places.
Gecko, the underlying engine behind Firefox, is an entirely different code base from Chromium
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I think he means Firefox is not Chromium-based; Chrome is a proprietary code base, no one can access it besides internal Google employees. Chromium, on the other hand, is open source, and is what browsers such as Edge, Brave and Opera are based off of. Chrome is also based off Chromium, it’s the closed source browser Google distributes. Think of Chromium as Android, and the Pixel UI as Chrome. So no, I doubt he means Firefox is Chrome.
Edit: seeing from the other comments, downvotes, and that the comment has been edited, he most likely made a typo and typed “Firefox is chromium.”
Edit 2: Mistakenly said that Chromium was what Firefox was based off of when I meant to say Brave. My bad. I’m well aware Firefox isn’t Chromium-based(I use it for that reason), I was just confused as to why this person was saying he meant Firefox was Chrome, when the comment read “firefox is not chromium”. I later realized(in the above edit) that they must have written “firefox is chromium”, before editing it to “firefox is not chromium” after realizing he messed the comment up.
Incorrect dukk. Firefox isn’t built on Chromium, Firefox predates google let alone Google chromium.
I’m not saying Firefox uses Chromium? I specifically said that Firefox ISN’T based off Chrome/Chromium.
Edit: Never mind, I see that I messed up the post.
But you left it up like a real OG, respect.
Firefox is the only major browser standing today that’s not based on Chromium, so you’re right there.
Firefox does not predate Google. Firefox is a descendant of Mozilla, which started as a broken chunk of quickly open sourced Netscape Navigator 4.0 code. Netscape’s engineers ripped out everything they didn’t hold a license to and dumped it raw (and uncompilable) on the web for the OSS community to rebuild. This happed just before Netscape was finished being acquired by AOL.
AOL did rebrand Netscape Navigator as AOL Browser, but it didn’t gain any significant market share.
Google was founded about the same time (about two years later) as Netscape Navigator was released. So, you can either say Firefox’s history is older than Google or the actual Firefox project is younger than Google.
In February 1998, approximately one year prior to its acquisition by AOL, Netscape released the source code for its browser and created the Mozilla Organization
Google Founded September 4, 1998
Mozilla, Gecko and what everyone now commonly refers to as Firefox predates Google.
Edit: you’re technically correct of course, however I wasn’t about to complicate my reply with Netscape, Mozilla and Gecko history when the OP I was replying to was saying Firefox was built on Google Chromium.
We’re all technically correct so far. Since that’s the best kind of correct I say we high five and enjoy reveling in our knowledge of nerddom history.
Nope. Firefox doesn’t use Chromium at all. It’s based on Gecko, an entirely different codebase that predates chromium.
Can someone explain? I’m definitely out of the loop on this one
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shit, this sounds terrifying
I recently played Hacknet, a hacking game published in 2015. That game talks a LOT about being tracked on the Internet, telling you to delete logs and some IP address data in file headers.
I think it’s becoming reality.
The game tells you to delete the logs on servers because computers can track all incoming requests, which can be a problem when you are doing nefarious actions and looking through confidentional infornation. Tracking who is accessing a computer/server and why has been a common practice, especially for buisnesses.
You also don’t actually need to delete the logs while playing. There are only 1 or 2 minor moments where there is a consequence for not doing that, and in those cases a fork bomb is also needed (to prevent leaving a disconnect log).
The actual scary part of the game is (SPOILERS) a big tech company developing a massive 0-day exploit and wanting to monopolize the patch for it.
tbh I’m just tired of all of this, we can’t have nice things, ever… Every fucking thing in this world is being swallowed by corporate greed. Every service there’s a catch, and I’m getting mad with it, things aren’t made to serve their purpose, they only exist to make money and more money for people who already have infinite money, it’s frustrating. Things need to change or everything is going to collapse… fuck companies, fuck billionaires, fuck stocks, fuck all of this
IPA changes?
The ale will no longer be Indian or pale.
DRM is stupid because it interferes with paying customers and isn’t effective. If there’s a will there’s a way
I guess we have to get a subscription on top of our monthly internet bill to use the internet.
Not one-for-one, but the BBC actually wanted to put a tax on broadband bills in response to the resentment towards the TV License.
*loicense
Maybe there wouldn’t be so much resentment if they didn’t send you threatening letters despite not using the service?
Can’t wait to have to subscribe to everything and they’ll still sell my data
It’s also stupid because it’s encryption but Bob and Eve are the same person.
