As musicians, politicians and fans remember Sinead O’Connor, some Muslims are disappointed that the Irish singer and lifelong activist’s religious identity is not being highlighted in tributes.
UK police on Wednesday said the 56-year-old was found unresponsive in her London residence on Wednesday and that there her death was not being treated as suspicious.
Since the news of her death, Muslim fans of the 90s superstar have said her conversion to Islam, a cornerstone of her identity, was inspiring, but that some media reports have failed to note her religious beliefs in obituaries.
O’Connor, whose chart-topping hit “Nothing Compares 2 U” helped her reach global stardom, converted to Islam in 2018.
“This is to announce that I am proud to have become a Muslim. This is the natural conclusion of any intelligent theologian‘s journey. All scripture study leads to Islam. Which makes all other scriptures redundant,” the songstress tweeted on October 19, 2018.
At that time, O’Connor tweeted selfies donning the Muslim headscarf, the hijab, and uploaded a video of her reciting the Islamic call to prayer, the azan.
She took on the Muslim name Shuhada’ Davitt – later changing it to Shuhada Sadaqat – but continued to use the name Sinead O’Connor professionally.
One social media user said imagery of the singer without the hijab points to the glaring lack of Muslim reporters in newsrooms.
Meanwhile, some said that O’Connor was an inspiration for queer Muslims globally.
In 2000, she came out as a lesbian during an interview. But the singer, who was married to multiple men throughout her life, later said that her sexuality was fluid and that she did not believe in labels.
Some found joy in O’Connor’s conversion growing up, seeing themselves represented, while others, just learning about her Muslim identity at the news of her death, also took inspiration.
O’Connor was no stranger to controversy.
A lifelong nonconformist, she was outspoken about religion, feminism, and war, as well as her own addiction and mental health issues.
In 2014, she refused to play in Israel.
“Let’s just say that, on a human level, nobody with any sanity, including myself, would have anything but sympathy for the Palestinian plight. There’s not a sane person on earth who in any way sanctions what the f*** the Israeli authorities are doing,” she told Hot Press, an Irish music magazine.
Her iconic shaved head and shapeless wardrobe defied early 90s popular culture’s notions of femininity and sexuality.
In 1992, she ripped up a photo of Pope John Paul II during a television appearance on Saturday Night Live, vocal against the Catholic Church’s history of child abuse.
The late former star was also a firm supporter of a united Ireland, under which the United Kingdom would relinquish control of Northern Ireland.
One social media user said imagery of the singer without the hijab points to the glaring lack of Muslim reporters in newsrooms.
So we can’t use images of Sinead O’Conner pre-2018 when talking about her legacy and remembering her work?
One social media user said imagery of the singer without the hijab points to the glaring lack of Muslim reporters in newsrooms.
So we can’t use images of Sinead O’Conner pre-2018 when talking about her legacy and remembering her work?
My guess is that it’s probably more like a Muslim would point out that it would be more respectful of the dead to not use a headshot that the dead would consider immodest.
I’m not sure it’s that big a deal:
I wear it when I feel like it. There’s no rules as such.
That’s what the media does… it twists things to fit it’s narrative. newsflash.
She also said she never wanted to spend time with non-muslim/white people again and that non-muslim/white people were disgusting after converting, which this article doesn’t mention at all either.
All media has their own narrative.
It’s because people assume it’s just a phase for her, like being a lesbian or being Catholic. None of those lasted.
But theres a point here - what does it really matter if she does? People aren’t static, we all have constant varying degrees of change in our lives and our perceptions of the world around us - I think it’s worthwhile and even noble to try and find words to communicate those changes.
She said so herself, right? Like, we identify with the labels that’ll help people outside ourselves understand best where we’re at - sometimes we change, sometimes we find a more immediately accurate label that articulates something the last one we identified with couldn’t quite reach.
Sure it’s reflective work for the perceived and asks a bit more headspace to process things in that frame for the perceiver - but we’re people. When we commit to being honest (for lack of a better word), we’re never going to live as simple narratives for others.
Sure. But should Muslim fans be proud of her Muslim identity as the article says, when she was also at different times a Catholic and given enough time might have become a Buddhist?
Did she take religion seriously?
But her being a great singer will last forever. Which is what we are remembering. Kinda weird that people are shaming that. Celebrate peoples talents and the things that brought them joy, not what was controversial or brought pain.
Because nobody in the west likes Islam.
There’s a fair amount of racism wrapped up in that sentiment that can’t be ignored, but Islam hasn’t exactly done itself many favours in the PR department.
Pre-2001 it was a kooky religion that popstars converted to and changed to a funny foreign sounding name and you’d hear little else about it. Maybe your local corner shop owner would get out his prayer mat to the bemusement of locals.
Post-2001 Muslims are scary bearded men with hooks for hands. They hate our way of life and we instantly feel less sympathy for them when we hear the word Muslim. If the Serbia/Kosovo situation had kicked off in 2002 instead of 1998, we’d have taken the Serb’s side on it.
PR? The story right above this one in my feed is about a woman getting Spanish citizenship because she’s afraid of going home after not wearing a hijab.
There is some racism. And there is some well deserved criticism as well.
slam hasn’t exactly done itself many favours in the PR department.
Why should people numbering billions have to think about what wealthier populations think about them? Seems bigoted in itself.
You’re saying it like there’s no wealthy Islam. Obviously you’ve never heard of the middle east.
On average those countries are either poor, propped up by wealthy populations to do our bidding, or heavily sanctioned into immiseration for the common people.
It was the Bush administration that used their cultural differences as a justification for their hatred of the west. Of course, Bush could have just mentioned what Al Qaeda actually said, which was that they were a reaction to the US military, money, and support meddling in the Middle East. But then that might draw negative attention from legitimate concerns the Middle East has, which means the terrorists win according to their tortured logic, so instead “they hate us for our freedom”.
Listen, I love Sinead, but she had some serious mental health issues. She became a catholic priest after lambasting the catholic church over child sexual abuse, then left the catholic church, then converted to Islam in 2018? I think if we want to completely divulge every single issue she had in her life, it does a disservice to her memory. From my perspective, there’s no reason other than mania that I can think of why someone like her would convert to a faith like Islam.
Islam as religious text basis doesn’t really differ in a bad way from the other two Abrahamic religions. It even gives some extra rights to women that Christianity and Judaism don’t. Forcing hijab on women is also expressively banned in Islamic theological texts. Doesn’t change how it works in practice as forced hijab is pretty common in fundamentalistic Islamic theocracies. But might explain why converting is a little bit less insane than at the surface level. If I had to choose one of the Abrahamic religions on a purely theological basis I might end up choosing Islam. Please note, I am not trying to give a pass to Islam, Islamic countries or especially fundamentalist Muslims. The issues are myriad. People outside Islamic countries just have a somewhat skewed image of the religion. Both in theory and practice.
It’s a religion founded by a guy who consummated a marriage to a 9 year old girl - on that basis alone, converting as a woman is super fucked up.
That’s no better or worse than the morals of the founders of the other Abrahamic religions.
yeah, and it’s dumb for women to convert to those, too. tbh it’s dumb for women to convert to any religion that allows men, period.
Holy yes yes no batman.
Its dumb for women to convert to a religion that allows men?
Yeah, you can get the cooties.
Playing with crystals doesn’t make you magic.
While consummating marriage with Aisha is indefensible, it is also on bar with religions and historical realities. Why it matters is because people in general would be a lot less likely to discuss this if she converted to Catholicism even though it has a very recent history of huge amounts of institutionalized CSA and thought it as insane as converting to Islam. Not saying that Islam doesn’t have issues in that front but they are not alone in that. I can’t say how she viewed it exactly.
No it isn’t. Most rapists back then waited until after puberty. 9 is extremely young no matter the era.
Even in Islam, it is said that Prophet Mohammed waited until the start of puberty. That is basically why according to the hadith he consummated the marriage a couple of years after he had already married Aisha. Doesn’t make it right and I too have issues with every Muslim who does.
9 is three years younger than what Christianity defined as the age of onset of puberty and as such marriageable age. Generally in North West Europe, marriage happened closer to today’s 18. The definition also happened hundreds of years after Islam was founded.
I am in no way saying that there is nothing or there is little to criticize in Islam. There is quite a lot to talk about. I have an issue in how and why people criticize it. From experience if she had converted to Catholicism which while has improved lately still had an institutionalized CSA problem among a lot of problematic positions. As a feminist woman there are slim pickings when it comes to religions and the three Abrahamic are big offenders. Aisha is one subject where legitimate criticism (there are others as well) even in comparison to other Abrahamic religions can be landed at the door of people who do not have an issue with it.
While consummating marriage with Aisha is indefensible, it is also on bar with religions and historical realities.
Why call it indefensible, and then go onto defend it?
I realized later that’s what it sounds like. I am not defending the act itself. I have spent a lot of time criticising it myself. What I am trying to do is to frame it into context. Bible is not without its pretty heinous acts. What I have an issue with is that people frame Islam, Christianity and Judaism in completely separate contexts. It is no less insane to convert to Christianity than Islam. Both are problematic and all three are built on each other literally. IMO based on religious texts Islam is better but that doesn’t mean it is without significant faults. There are buts like with Aisha. Otherwise, I would have converted already.
People forget that countries, cultures, religions and people are not as simply understood as Islam bad. That would make my work easier. But religions are a complex mixture of all with a side of history. For example, both Christianity and Judaism also require veiling yourself as a woman but few do. I haven’t really met a Christian who doesn’t wear polycotton. And as few that don’t eat crustaceans. Not even Catholicism nor Orthodoxy require either. But Bible does.
Fundamentalist thought processes have been pretty widespread in Islam for the past half a century. But they are not also explainable with just Islam bad. A lot of it is overcorrection because of imperialism. Some are about the far-right which while Islamophobic carries a lot of commonalities with fundamentalists of all types. And some are about religion. It is a potent mix and is used by a lot of populists globally. While there is a lot to criticize, it is often mischaracterized. Which makes me sound like I am defending the faults. I am not and should have framed better.
Here’s a video on this presentism fallacy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzXN6Mv9k8A
I don’t think this really applies to a prophet of god. What kind of god forbids bacon, but leaves friggen pedophilia on the table?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=lzXN6Mv9k8A
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Islam has a completely different God to Christianity. Despite both being monotheistic, Christianity worships a triune God and believes that Jesus was a personage of God. It also rejects Jesus’ death and other historical knowledge of Jesus.
It also completely invalidates Islam in the eyes of the Qur’an
Religion is control. It doesn’t deliver freedom.
She became a catholic priest
That doesn’t sound right.
It was a not officially recognized sect
There are no unofficial Catholic sects. By definition, if you’re not official, you’re not Catholic. They’re allowed to define that.
There are numerous independent Catholic sects.
"Independent Catholicism is an independent sacramental movement of clergy and laity who self-identify as Catholic "
When you have a closed group, like a religion, you absolutely can set minimum criteria for membership, and disallow self-identification as a valid way to enter. Just like I can’t say I’m Canadian, those people aren’t Catholic. Who says so? The pope. And it’s his call to make.
No arguments there. But the ordainment did happen, is my point. The pope was not involved.
I too can go online and become ordained
The word “Catholic” just means universal. Most Christians claim to be Catholic as well, such as Anglicans, as they see themselves as descended from the Church of the Apostles. You’d really have to get into restorationism or people simply misunderstanding the faith to find those who don’t. Although whether or not they are Roman Catholic, as in, seeing the authority of the Bishop of Rome as Pope, is a different thing.
It’s just religion. Any fanatism should be ignored.
Unfortunately many religions are fanatic.
You’re welcome to downvote me into the depths of the underworld now.
Honestly I’ll never understand why she chose to go down that path. Becoming Muslim goes against everything she stood for. I just don’t get it.
Outspoken non-conformist feminist conforms and converts to Islam, declaring all other religions worldwide, wrong and invalid. Could almost be an Onion article title.
Sky daddy issues.
She’s vocal against the Catholic Church’s history of child abuse. Assuming you’re just like all other anti-theists, I would say some amount of her personal beliefs align with yours. Almost hypocritical of you.
Also, I don’t see any “issues” she’s having. Only issues people having against her. Not saying she’s the best person - she’s still kinda shit.
Didn’t the Prophet Muhammad like… fuck a 12 year old?
Quote where it comes from. Not that hellish shit of a book that is Sahih Bukhari. I’m Shia, so I don’t buy that. Aisha be writing softcover porn in that book and there are so many contradictions that I am almost calling it a fairytale book.
A Shia source please.
Well religion has clearly done wonders for your critical thinking skills, thank you for this hilariously batshit example of a brain on religion.
“I don’t believe in anything from that ancient book go find me another ancient book that I would believe” -religoids justifying outdated philosophies and untested world views
Because it has nothing I believe in. It’s like trying to prove Islam is wrong using quotes from the Bible. It’s something I don’t believe in, and Bukhari is something Shias don’t believe in.
I now know that there is no Shiite basis for the argument that Aisha was 9 at her marriages consumnation, and for many other issues. From whatever research I have done, the only sources for their truth is in Sunni Hadith books. I can live easily knowing most of the arguments against Islam repeated by anti-theists aren’t an issue for Shias.
What a silly book!
So I don’t know or care enough to go trying to understand and quote books, but here’s a shia forum full of people refering to age 9 sexual maturity for girls.
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235044362-what-is-the-exact-minimum-age-for-have-sex/
Sex with a 9 year old would have been a very common and accepted practice through most of history (including Islamic history) in various different civilizations. That being said, the minimum age according to Islamic law, a married girl can have intercourse - by law - is 9 lunar years.
Very cool and very halal.
Not to disprove the source, in contemporary Muslim teachings they married at 6-9, but didn’t consummate the marriage until 12.
Phew!
That makes it better
“All religious texts are porn and fairy tales… Not mine though”
- literally every religious person on Earth
She’s vocal against the Catholic Church’s history of child abuse.
Which is very good, but why did she then join another religion with pretty much the same history? Do people really think it’s only the Catholic church?
Edit: I learned that she also joined a Catholic church (but not the Catholic church) for a while. Yes, definitely crazy.
A woman converting to Islam has issues. Saying it’s the inevitable confusion of theological inquiry is hard evidence of brain damage.
Very funny.
I have to admit that I always thought she was agnostic, if not atheist, from that Pope stuff.
I idly wonder why a gay feminist would convert to Islam. Aren’t those things incompatible? Is this my ignorance showing? Are there sects of Islam that are more open minded, like there are sects of Christianity?
Removed by mod
I feel like most of the Democrats are also Christians themselves though? I’m not sure your narrative aligns with reality. You may be confusing separation of church and state, which most Democrats ascribe to with being supportive of Christianity. Do you have any examples that come to mind of Democrats taking away anyone’s ability to practice religion freely outside of public spaces?
Do you have any examples that come to mind of Democrats taking away anyone’s ability to practice religion freely
They don’t. They just support, you know, rational thought and human rights. Those naturally annihilate religion over time.
If the Democrats manage to integrate those values with Islam it’ll annihilate Islam. They’re fundamentally incompatible.
That’s like calling me catholic even though I haven’t gone to church or believed in the institution for 15 years
Religious participation has been on a steady downward trend for decades
uh… what? We also have a freedom from religion. I don’t know of any Democrat that has urged making anyone follow any specific religious tenet; only saying that one religion can’t force their religious rules on someone else, or use those religion rules to discriminate against someone else.
Do you have an example of what you mean?
I don’t know of any Democrat that has urged making anyone follow any specific religious tenet;
Exactly. Democrats oppose people doing that. Religions rely on being able to do that.
This isn’t evil, it’s good. Islam and Christianity should both burn. Christianity is already limping and dying. Islam is sheltered from modern national thought. However, the United States through this ability to subsume and neuter, will be able to accept way more Islamic immigrants than Europe can.
I’m not saying the Democrats are bad, only that their friendly face is a little less friendly than you might think.
What are you talking about?
There is no scheme to “destroy” religions. Even the scenario you lay out is “be tolerant and accept other religions” and create a society where rationality and decency are valued. That’s actually being friendly and inclusive, not pretending
Even the scenario you lay out is “be tolerant and accept other religions” and create a society where rationality and decency are valued. That’s actually being friendly and inclusive, not pretending
And those values will in time annihilate religion. Islam and Christianity are nasty expansionist cultural viruses that rely on social force to keep their roots and spread their lies.
Integrating into Islam and spreading tolerance kills Islam.
In short, yes, Islam varies a lot based on the actual community you’re a part of. Few places are as extreme as Afghanistan, even if you look at other conservative theocracies. When you’re looking at Muslim communities in Western Europe, it’s a very different situation.
Well, TIL a few things. Thanks.
Additionally, most of the world’s Muslims don’t live in the Middle East or North Africa. South and and Southeast Asia combined have by far the largest Muslim population in the world. India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. And the way they practice Islam is quite different from the Middle East and North Africa. According to Wikipedia, there are about 241 million in Pakistan, 236 million in Indonesia, about 200 million in India, and 151 million in Bangladesh.
And the way they practice Islam is quite different from the Middle East
Worth noting that fundamentalist Islam is exported from KSA, similar to how evangelical Christianity is exported from USA.
Only one brand of fundamentalist Islam is exported from KSA. There are a lot of brands including ones brought from Iran and Afghanistan not to mention whatever ISIS was doing.
I believe ISIS is Salafi, just like KSA. The Taliban were inspired by the Deobandi of India, who were extremely anti-colonist.
They are a Salafi Jihadist group but they had their own idiocy added to Salfism which in itself has roots in Wahhabism.
She herself seemed to lack this sort of nuance. She refused to play in Israel, for example, effectively accusing and dismissing an entire nation as oppressors.
I suspect she was, deep down, not a particularly reflective person. We all know people like these. Feel a feeling, act on it immediately, and maaaybe consider the implications and consequences later. Maybe. Or just double down, and never dare to truly look at yourself in the mirror.
It’s unfortunate because these types of people also sometimes turn out to be incredible artists. I assume it’s the combination of talent plus the ability (/curse?) to experience raw feelings much more strongly than the rest of us.
Mental illness.
Muslim here, so I can reply to the question as opposed to someone who only knows about Islam from what the media or the predominant islamophobic content we find on the internet tells them about what to think about it. When you have a question about the Mercator projection, you normally don’t go to a flatearther…
She was a theologian, so she studied religions and left Islam to the last, which she ended up accepting based on the scripture once she studied it.
As to the stance of Islam with regards to being gay, the sexual act is forbidden as in one should abstain from actually doing it. Thinking about it or having the desire without acting upon it is not considered a sin. There are punishments in the Islamic law for when a person has been seen by 4 eyewitnesses performing same-sex fornication. To my knowledge this has never been followed through by a judge in the Islamic state of the 4 caliphates as the prerequisites are, intentionally, hard to come by: spying invalidates the testimony, the act should take place out of the privacy of their home etc. So it’s really if the person is doing it in the open… Now I don’t speak about what western media uphold as THE Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia which are not following strictly the law (and its prerequisites). They have laws that are quite… theirs. Also being gay and being Muslim are not incompatible, since a Muslim is always striving to submit to the divine will and overcome one’s own desires. As long as a person is sincere and keeps repenting for his/her eventual shortcomings and never disbelieves in God they remain a Muslim.
About why would a feminist accept Islam, if you study it you’ll know that it is not misogynistic (ie. considers women as lower than men or is hateful against women). Rather it has a fundamentally different and more factual stance: women are psychologically and physically different from men. So it is about equity and not equality: women do some things better than men and men can so some things better that women; women desire different things than men. To each their role in a family and in society as a whole. Both are honoured in what they do, and you’d even find women are even more honoured, revered and protected.
“Openness” has less to do with sects and as another person commented is more about the society. Muslims, +90% of which are Sunni, have the same source of law but the differences do not come from the religion but are societal.
I don’t have enough knowledge to discuss the ins and outs of your religion, but I can point out that your use of misogyny seems very narrowly defined, perhaps solely to fit your stance. Telling a woman “you aren’t allowed to do that because you’re better suited for this” is misogyny. I don’t know for a fact that this is what you mean, so clarification wouldn’t be remiss, but I suspect due to your wording that your religion does tell women what they can and can’t do.
The religion tells both males and females what they should and what they should not do. Most of it is the same, some of it is different depending on the gender.
I genuinely don’t see how the above is misogynistic.
I encourage you to study it. Find reliable Muslim sources who know what they are talking about and increase your knowledge. I may recommend sine YouTube channels like Muslim Lantern or Dawahwise.
because unless that thing they’re told to do involves having specific sex organs, it has nothing to do with their sex. Like, if it says women should stay at home and care for the kids, while men go work and earn the money-- that’s bigoted; there’s no real reason for that except that it results in compliant, financially dependent women. Abuse flourishes in this type of scenario.
I agree, but Islam doesn’t really differ from other religions in that way. They tell people what to do. One thing Islam does do differing from other Abrahamic religions is that it also defines the rights of both parties for example women are entitled to financial support in marriage. Women are also entitled to divorce in abusive marriages. Both rights don’t really effectively function in fundamentalist Islamic theocracies. Like the person who you answered their Islam is often its own thing.
That doesn’t change that it limits both parties’ liberties to be themselves but that is pretty much given when it comes to religions. As is with Christianity, people pick and choose Islam. But it is less of an oppressive religion on religious text basis than people usually think.
I am an atheist. I do, usually, try to let the religious do their own thing as long as they’re not forcing other people, but as far as I’m concerned, all religions make just as much sense as people that believe in astrology. I just wish society would start treating religion like astrology. Imagine the SCOTUS reaction if someone from Hobby Lobby suggested they couldn’t provide birth control healthcare coverage because mars was in retrograde and they’re born under the sign of Aries. haha
Sex organs are something that males and females have in different forms, but it is disingenuous to say this is the only difference.
The man MUST provide for the house. The woman is not obliged to work and bring money, but she can do it if she wants. The way you phrased it can be understood that she is barred from working when this is not the case. Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) first wife Khadija was a successful tradeswoman for example. So the religion does not automatically make women financially dependant. There is abuse in some Muslim countries, no doubt like everywhere, but religion is not the reason.
Moreover, whatever the woman earns is 100% hers if she chooses to, and the man has no claim on it in Islam. She can put that to use for the house expenses, or not if she chooses to. It’s her right. Usually working women help the household’s finances but it’s up to couples to decide how they want to function.
Its the only meaningful difference in this context. And don’t think I’m giving a pass on the religion telling men what they can and can’t do. That’s also bigotry.
We do not have the same paradigm, that’s for sure. That’s why we need to learn about each other’s views.
Islam’s is: God created mankind and put it on earth for a propose. He gave us this life which is a test with do’s and don’ts. And depending on whether we follow the rules or not there is eternal bliss or eternal punishment.
Why am I or others positing this? Because God sent throughout our existence messengers to remind us of our purpose.
Why should we trust these so called messengers? They were granted miracles, ie. things others cannot perform like splitting the sea, reviving the dead, splitting the moon etc.
He also gave these messengers scripture with the laws to abide by. Where are these scriptures? Most of them were lost (Abraham’s tablet, David’s psalms…) or demonstrably corrupted by people (the old and the new testaments). The last scripture revealed is the Qur’an which is demonstrably preserved for everyone to read.
Read it and read about Muhammad’s life and you’ll understand what so called “Islam” (“peace through submission” in Arabic) is.
Yeah - her anger was directed at the church not religion. Wearing a hijab, however, seems completely irrational for a feminist. But doing something people don’t expect to get attention and make people mad is definitely on-brand.
Wearing a hijab, however, seems completely irrational for a feminist
Not if you understand that feminism is first and foremost about the freedom for women to choose what’s best for ourselves (rather than have, usually a man, often with no knowledge of your history or culture, tell you what you should or shouldn’t wear), and that neither feminists nor Muslims are a monolith and that members of either or both come from all walks of life and have a variety of views and opinions.
Perhaps try gaining a better understanding before you make such bold (and Islamophobic and sexist as well as ableist) claims:
https://daily.jstor.org/muslim-women-and-the-politics-of-the-headscarf/
I think you missed a few “ists” to accuse me of.
Wearing a hijab, however, seems completely irrational for a feminist.
If it’s her own free choice, I see absolutely no contradiction there.
I see absolutely no contradiction there.
Then I doubt that I could explain to you why it is.
Let me guess, “It’s a symbol of oppression!”?
If so, then my reply is that she certainly didn’t think of it as such. And when it comes to what she wants to wear, her view is much more valid than and outsider.
Many western men have forced wives and daughters to not wear revealing cloths. That doesn’t make a loose pullover an instrument of oppression. The intent and reason of the person wanting to wear something is all that matters.
Bubba the redneck doesn’t think of his confederate flag as a symbol of oppression.
But it’s not up to him to determine that now is it?
One is a flag, literally a symbol of a group or a state of oppression and the other is a widely used religious garment where millions of women wear it out of their own free choice. Context matters.
And millions of women have it forced upon them under threat of imprisonment or death. One of whom was beaten to death in the street quite recently. Context matters.
If you think its feminisn to tell a woman what shes should and shouldn’t wear, I don’t know what to tell you.
I’m not telling women to wear anything. Many militant islamists, however, have used hijabs to control women. Like it or not it’s become a symbol of oppression as a result.
You’re insuinating that feminism is incompatiable with women choosing what they wear if it’s a garment you don’t approve of. Feminism does not tell women what they can and cannot wear. Furthermore you claim its a hate image despite millions of Muslim women saying it’s part of their culture and not representative of a radical minority. How many women do you intend on speaking over in your persuit of “feminism”?
You’re insuinating that feminism is incompatiable with women choosing what they wear if it’s a garment you don’t approve of.
What I’m actually saying is that wearing a garment that has been used to terrorize and oppress thousands of women is incompatible with feminism. Most religions are incompatible with feminism since they tend to preach that women are a second class that can’t hold leadership positions.
She absolutely has the right to choose what she wants to wear. She choose poorly is all. It’s like showing up to a wedding as a guest and wearing a bridal gown. You don’t do it.
You’re insuinating that feminism is incompatiable with women choosing what they wear if it’s a garment you don’t approve of.
You could say the same thing about a Confederate flag though.
Not that I’m saying the two are comparable, but that it’s not a very good argument.
Feminism is incompatible with sexism.
Something Islam teaches as a core concept.
It isn’t “telling a woman what to wear” to call out it is logically inconsistent to champion the independence and equality of women, and also wear a sign of patriarchal theistic oppression.
The Qur’an doesn’t tell women to wear a hijab. It’s up to the woman to decide whether she feels called upon to wear it. Plenty of Muslim women don’t wear one and governments and men who force women to wear one are assholes.
PS feminism is about choice.
It isn’t “telling a woman what to wear” to call out it is logically inconsistent to champion the independence and equality of women, and also wear a sign of patriarchal theistic oppression.
That is not how the majority of Muslim women who wear hijab of their free will see it. Often it is framed in you hide what is most important to you. For Muslim women who have to wear hijab and do not want to it is seen as a tool of oppression. The difference is choice.
We are past second-wave feminism for the most part. If you can choose what you want to do, it is OK to choose traditionally feminine things. I am not Muslim. But I love kids, cooking and cleaning. It is OK. I can be more than one thing.
To be clear: people can wear whatever they want Their life. Outside of a discussion like this, I don’t care.
Second, I don’t have a specific axe to grind with Islam. Only organized religion that doesn’t put equality in everything as their first tenet.
Regarding this person, and this conversation, my point is that to put yourself out there as a champion of equality and freedom, then wear the uniform of oppression (any artifact of a patriarchal, power abusing, non equality based religion is such a uniform) is inconsistent.
You can’t just start wearing a swastika in the nazi motif and claim you just wear it for yourself, and you have your own personal narrative with it, that it empowers you. It doesn’t matter if millions of people do it, or wear a headscarf, hijab, etc. Even if every one of them claims they like it, and do it only for themselves, they got that idea from a poison well.
The majority of Muslim women live in countries where they are forced to wear it.
Stop acting like it’s a choice for so many just because a few privileged westerners get a choice.
To be clear: people can wear whatever they want Their life. Outside of a discussion like this, I don’t care.
Second, I don’t have a specific axe to grind with Islam. Only organized religion that doesn’t put equality in everything as their first tenet.
Regarding this person, and this conversation, my point is that to put yourself out there as a champion of equality and freedom, then wear the uniform of oppression (any artifact of a patriarchal, power abusing, non equality based religion is such a uniform) is inconsistent.
You can’t just start wearing a swastika in the nazi motif and claim you just wear it for yourself, and you have your own personal narrative with it, that it empowers you. It doesn’t matter if millions of people do it, or wear a headscarf, hijab, etc. Even if every one of them claims they like it, and do it only for themselves, they got that idea from a poison well.
You have to speak over a lot of women to call a hijab a symbol of opression since there are millions of them that wear it of their own will, in places it’s not required, and will gladly tell you that it’s part of their culture and not representative of a radical minority. What you doing is akin to saying anyone who wears a crucifix necklace supports priests abusing kids.
Hundreds of million more women are forced to wear it…
Why people defend something as disgusting and abhorrent as religion I’ll never know.
The media, especially the tabloids, have been like vultures, picking apart her life, her mental health, her marriages, her kids, etc, since her death. There’s no dignity in death when you’re famous.
Huh, Allah wouldnt save her either.
Let’s help people remember her Muslim identity then, I’ll start:
She clarified why she did that in an interview. It’s quite funny.
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This whole comment section is a cesspit that demonstrates exactly why she felt that way, yet even in death you fuckers just want to keep pilling on.
You are the problem here, not her.Especially given this context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmsdJ5R0b0
Someone call the cops people are expressing opinions
How does she still have white fans? You’d have to be so self-hating to be a fan of hers.
I’m a white. A queer. An atheist. And a fan.
White people have a very long & deep history of saying some really nasty shit about non-white people, especially of the muslim faith.
Yeah that’s not just exclusive to white people
of course not, but Sinead… is white. As a white converted Muslim, she was probably hyper aware of the Islamophobia within her own communities, fan base, and just in general.
Her post, while the language was divisive, it was obviously written out of frustration and what she meant is pretty clear & obvious to anyone paying attention to Islamophobia, especially post 9/11 and then again especially during Trump’s administration.
I hate this “You need to understand and tolerate where their bigiotry is coming from” bullshit. How about no?
In the past she was Islamophobic. Now that she’s Muslim she’s projecting hate onto white people? Seems like she’s just a bigot.
What she said has no consequences at all comparable to what the Iraqis in 2001 had, Muslim immigrants in Europe face, or even the mass shooting in New Zealand.
How about just don’t be a fucking bigot?
She didn’t even convert to Islam until 2018, I doubt Trumps election has anything to do with it considering she’s not even American.
silly to ignore the ripple effects across the globe from the trump administration… We have seen a hard right turn in many countries, many people emboldened by what he said and did. Anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, anti-all kinds of crap. His hate spread far and wide, my friend.
As a global artist (and a divisive one to boot) who traveled the world many times over and had to deal with fans and haters from every culture, Sinead, more than most people, was acutely attuned to many white attitudes.
While influencing each other and using the same playbook the far right between the US and Europe is as separate as the left is. It didn’t really increase that much after Trump as it had increased exponentially and became more and more tolerated by centrists with the refugee “crisis”. That happened in the summer of 2015 with election wins and gains in multiple European countries for far-right during the second half of 2015. It was a more parallel instead of a directly causative process.
I’ve probably only heard 1 of her songs the entire time I’ve been alive
Why should that be an issue? As if Black people can’t be HP Lovecraft fans.
I understand the point here, but you realise this is stupid because it legitimises that other idiot’s sense of grievance against a supposed ‘reverse racism’. Structural reverse racism is impossible because of history.
By separating the art from the artist.
There’s people in every industry who surely have insufferable personalities but they make great art. Enjoying her music doesn’t mean you enjoy her as a person ya know
I think she was a complicated person who struggled in a lot of ways, but she did apologize for saying this…https://people.com/music/sinead-oconnor-apologizes-saying-white-people-disgusting/
I’ll never understand the switch to Islam though, but then again, I’ll probably never understand why anyone chooses any religion either – Especially someone who took the kinds of positions she had taken earlier in life. People are complicated. I won’t hold that against her.
Existence is very scary. The randomness of it all, the indifference of the universe, how little we matter, the finality of death… not everyone can cope with this stuff. Religion provides hope and comfort to them.
I mean I wish we’d move past religion, but I don’t think it’ll ever happen. Being alive is fucking terrifying.
You might feel like just a small grain of sand, but the beach is fucking beautiful.
As a queer person, I COMPLETELY understand her sentiment here. I don’t agree with it, but I understand it.
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Exactly how she wanted it to be perceived. She was protesting racism against the non-whites.
“JOKES ON THEM, I’M ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED”
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Are you telling me I shouldn’t move to an African country? That’s kind of racist.
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When I spend a lot of time around non-queer people (although even some cisgender gay people get in my nerves too) it gets to be really difficult for me. You’re constantly hiding parts of who you are, or getting sideways looks, or other things that tell you that they really don’t “get” you. You feel constantly judged and on the outside. It makes it difficult to not have at least a quick chat with someone who does understand.
Have you tried converting to Islam? I’m sure that’ll make it all better.
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She was angry for getting a lot of Islamophobia. It’s racism yeah but only in a very literal sense that doesn’t hurt white people. It’s not that hard to understand.
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It’s always the most racist asshole who believe “reverse racism” is a thing, always desperate to be the victim, never willing to acknowledge how they actively victimise already marginalised people constantly.
Yeah lol who said anything about “good racism”? Lemmy really is like the old Reddit, can’t say I missed “reverse racism” concern trolls.
It’s always the most racist asshole who believe “reverse racism” is a thing
Okay. I believe that.
never willing to acknowledge how they actively victimise already marginalised people constantly
Yes? What have I done? Can you give me specific examples of my problematic actions which actively victimize already marginalized people constantly?
If you can not, then we might have a bit of a problem. After all, you don’t know what I did or did not do. You don’t know if I did that, or how I did that. To me that seems like ignorant stereotyping. It is something racists regularly engage in, and a big common part of what makes lots of different bigoted and prejudiced groups of people (not limited to just racists) into such a big problem.
So I would appreciate if you could stop to ignorantly stereotype me without knowing me. If you still choose do that… Well, actually, I don’t mind it that much. You are just a random internet person after all. But if you behave like that, you are sharing that behavior with racists, and lots of other types of bigots. If you think that is a good idea, feel free to carry on. But I thought I should let you know.
I remember her rise to fame. She was always a twat and died a twat.
I hated that I agree with her philosophy on religion and the hypocrisy of it, but I did. The fact that she converted just proves what a whiny, hypocrisy filled attention seeker she was.
I said it then and I’m saying it again now. Nothing of value is lost in her passing
Cope
She had a lot of mental issues so making great choices was sometimes not her strength. Choosing to become a muslim might very highlight one of those bad choices.
Yea her whole reasoning for converting is flawed too. When she says every theologians’ studies leads to Islam and that all other scriptures are just redundant, she fails to see how most of the Abrahamic texts stories originated from Hindu and the Sumerians. Those are the oldest known recordings of many of the stories in the Bible and the Quran.
I also find it weird that she condemned the Catholic church for sexual abuse, and then joined a religion with a prophet that married and slept with a 9 year old.
