Go easy on people. It’s hard to change, and something like lemmy can be intimidating for people to get on board with. That’s ignoring the fact that even if they move they can’t force their communities to come with them.

I’m personally happy to see the back of Reddit, and am convincing anyone I can to switch too, but I can understand the challenge for the average user to switch. Hell, even Reddit is a technical step-up for a lotta people. The tech world has forced a paradigm that traps the average user, using the fact it all appears free as the bait. Be angry at big tech, not the ones they swindled.

Good point! I did mean to acknowledge this. I don’t mean to say factory work is necessarily unfulfilling by nature. We should be looking to automate all unfulfilling jobs away where we can, factory or otherwise. I’d guess factory work is often more fulfilling than the range of white collar bullshit jobs (“B” ark type stuff 😜) where there’s no sense of really doing anything of value. I suspect though a lot of the unfulfilling white collar bullshit work does require automation replace, but we can just stop making people do pretend work just to be able to live! (I say this confident of my ticket on the “B” ark myself!)

I would say however, how well they’re paid isn’t the whole picture thought. If there are nasty jobs that need doing, we should at least make sure they pay well, but better that all have fulfilling and well paid jobs, rather than sacrificial one for the other. Utopian/idealistic I know, but if I’m going to be dreaming might as well dream big! 😁

I don’t know my Marx, but doesn’t he have a thing about factory work being by it’s nature dehumanising due to its focus on being just one tiny part of making something, rather than the craftsman it replaced. I think there’s something to be said for that, and where we can accepting that while a production line may be strictly more efficient than craftsman, that efficiency isn’t everything all the time. (Again using factory analogy here but the same comparison can be made of various “white collar” jobs too).

Oh I should also say, that I can imagine the full automation of some jobs being bad for similar reasons, even if it might seem like a win. If there is joy to be found in, for example, the work of a making furniture by hand, then I can see it being a negative to fully automate that job away, even if we can ensure every furniture maker isn’t affected financially by the loss of the jobs. There’s something of value in the feeling of performing ones craft in the equitable service of someone else, and if we have machines making the furniture the same, then we risk robbing people of that.

No simple answers I guess! Balance in everything, everything in balance and all that.

I’d say even if the overall efficiency ends up lower with automation (not that you’re saying that or that it’s true) I’d say it’s still the right course.

If we in developed countries are saying that working in a factory is degrading and inhumane work, then it’s not much of a solution to offload it to a country with people desperate enough to do it anyway. It doesn’t solve the problem if we get our own people to do it either, by incentive or otherwise.

The aim should be that no one is stuck doing degrading, unfulfilling work. If automation fails to be as efficient than human labour, be it in the short term or long term, and whether that be in terms of profit or resources, it’s still worth it to minimise the number of people stuck in unfulfilling wage slavery.

Again, to emphasise the point, even if human hands are cheaper than automation for the next hundred years, we should still drive to automation.

That being said, this all assumes we get our shit together as a society to get UBI and other ways for people to live meaningful lives without the factory work!

Good spot!

I briefly worked in safety critical software, so adjacent to defence and aeronautical in the UK. I recall that when the UK was asking for the source code for windows running on the trident subs at the time (which is terrifying thought at the best of times. A whole new meaning to blue screen of death) that UK gov had asked to inspect the source code but was told to swivel. IIRC US and China were both allowed to look. That was all on the grapevine though, and I was still a kid so obv take with a pinch of salt, but I’m inclined to believe it.

I had more direct experience in my role validating software to run on military aircraft. We were contracted in to “prove” that the software was up to do-178b security stand and bug free via line by line inspection and some other techniques (which was a joy as you can imagine). I never got the impression that the source would be shared with the government, only that it had to meet the standard.

Interesting sidenote there, was that because it was for defence, being up to the standard was really marketing more than legal requirement. We’d find bugs that would trigger hard reboots of the hardware and the message was always “thanks for letting us know, but it’s too expensive to get the original contractors back to fix it so we’ll just ignore it”. I think they’d have been legally obliged to do something for civilian aircraft but military is a different game.

(Again should emphasise these are vague memories from working a gap year before my masters, so take with pinch of salt.)