So how do power dynamics work for you? Do you think the little guy’s voice is always heard in this just world? Do you think that when you are vulnerable the powerful will step in to help? Because right now, the Palestinians have a double dicking of IDF supported by the US. Do you think the Palestinians or even Hamas has any leverage whatsoever? Because by the way its going, I don’t think they have shit.
You’re jumping in every post defending Israel. But why? We are standing on the other side of the world, handing people our bombs to blow up other people we don’t know. I don’t know about you, but that means I don’t really have a dog in this race except for my tax dollars and morality.
Usually, the institution with the money and bigger military has the power to capitulate. Because they’re less vulnerable and more able to take risks. If you think the small guerrilla force has the power here, you should probably review the last 80 years in the middle east AND watch Star Wars for good measure. Theres a reason the rebels didn’t negotiate, and its relatively similar here ironically enough.
So how do power dynamics work for you? Do you think the little guy’s voice is always heard in this just world? Do you think that when you are vulnerable the powerful will step in to help? Because right now, the Palestinians have a double dicking of IDF supported by the US. Do you think the Palestinians or even Hamas has any leverage whatsoever? Because by the way its going, I don’t think they have shit.
I think there’s a lot more to this conflict than little guy/big guy. Sometimes the underdog isn’t the hero. Sometimes one must acknowledge hard realities. I think Palestinians had all the leverage at one point but they squandered it by launching one failed war after another. Unfortunately many people just see what appears to be a superpower punching down asymmetrically and react to that without greater historical context.
You’re jumping in every post defending Israel. But why?
A few reasons:
1) While they certainly have their faults, I believe Israel is the more sympathetic party. Why?:
Instigation: Most of the Palestinian grievances and annexations cited as reasons for this ongoing conflict are a direct consequence of hostilities they instigated. (The earliest recorded conflicts in the late 1800’s, the first massacres in Mandatory Palestine, the war in '48, the war in '67, constant terror attacks ever since…)
Voting for violence and genocide: When given a chance to elect their own leadership, Gazans chose Hamas, an explicitly genocidal group that rejects diplomacy in favor of jihad. This war is a direct consequence of this. (Yes, I know they had a coup and haven’t held elections in some time, but that’s an unsurprising consequence of electing fascist terrorists.)
Holding Israel to higher humanitarian standards than their own forces exhibit: When Jordan, as part of Palestine’s Arab League, annexed the West Bank and Jerusalem they were not shy about genociding Jews from these territories or indiscriminately shelling the Jewish quarter until it was empty.
Genocide of Jews, denial of equal rights, terrorist attacks, and unwillingness to negotiate or compromise are supported by most of the Palestinian population:The vast majority of Palestinians approve of Hamas’ platforms and methods. I can’t support a nation that desires this. Say what you will about Israel’s actions, they at least are sensitive to genocide and have been relatively very reasonable and restrained compared to what Palestine wants for them and has exhibited when they have the upper hand.
Sympathy for Oct 7: I watched videos of the slaughter of EDM kids harmlessly dancing and read the accounts of the atrocities committed that day. Any national regime that would do something like that is begging for violent reprisal and deserves to be toppled by whatever means are nessicary.
2) The Realpolitik.
Only Palestineans can end this conflict short-term. Palestine has the capability to end this conflict immediately by making concessions, and the consequences for them if they don’t should be obvious by now. Israel will eventually win and there will be no Palestine if they do not sue for peace, it will take a while but their remaining lands will likely ebb away and things will likely grow ever more dire.
Palestineans cannot win against Israel with violence: Militarily, Israel has all the cards. This needs to be recognized and acknowledged for any progress to be made. If they do wish to remain belligerent they will be treated like a hostile nation, ultimately this is the cause of all the deaths there.
3) Balance.
A lot of people on the feddiverse are misrepresenting what appears to be happening and portraying what I consider to be a biased, inaccurate, one-sided pro-Palestinean view of things: If the discourse were a bit more reserved, balanced, and fair, and seemed less like an angry pitchfork-wielding mob, I would probably be keeping my opinions to myself and commenting far less.
Hysteria & hyperbole: People are making Israel out to be monstrous by accusing them of apartheid, genocide, and all manner of evil misdeeds, and while one can certainly make a case for this, (and many, like amnesty international, have,) I found that once I looked into these accusations they didn’t seem appropriate. Israel is not committing monstrous deeds with the intention of maintaining a racial hierarchy, but rather this is the net result of people trying to do everything they can to keep themselves safe for 70 years, while trying not to sink to the inhumane depths that they experienced firsthand in recent history, (or that their enemies still exhibit for them.)
Well at least I understand where you are coming from now. I will say your arguments about the Palestinian’s choices are a little weak, as we can see from your sources Hamas barely won by a small margin. But I have some insight now on why people are siding with Israel. Cause you’re right. I mostly see a strong nation backed by a world power bombing a miniscule nation. I can’t say I agree with all of your points, as I think we’re looking at 50+ years of an eye for an eye. Also, you claim instigation on the side of the Palestinians, when Israel was literally made from Palestinian land that the British government was in administration of. I fail to see how they instigated that. But it just further proves the situation is a grey area where the only “good sides” are the civilians crushed in conflict. I still believe the more powerful nations have the authority to call for a ceasefire, but thank you for sharing your perspective.
I’m glad that I could provide some understanding, I’ve been learning a lot myself. It was an interesting exercise to sum up the basis for my position in one post since there’s a lot going on in this conflict, (I hit the character count limit.)
we can see from your sources Hamas barely won by a small margin.
Hamas and Fatah, a group with its own history of terrorism, combined got 86% of the vote. This combined with the survey linked above paint a clear picture of overwhelming approval of intifada.
Also, you claim instigation on the side of the Palestinians, when Israel was literally made from Palestinian land that the British government was in administration of. I fail to see how they instigated that.
They started off legally buying the land, Most of the early massacres under mandatory Palestine were instigated by Palestinian Arabs. Arab nationalism and xenophobia got the cycle of violence going in earnest, leading to militancy and reprisals and riots, causing the British to conclude that a one-state solution was not viable. Had they not, Israel and Palestine might have been one, a pluralistic state.
The British left, kicking the problem to the UN. Israel declared themselves a nation with the borders the UN created for them, then they immediately had war declared on them by Arab nations all around them on behalf of the Palestinians, who did not like the borders. Israel won against incredible odds, then annexed the lands of those who left. Descendants of Arab Palestinians who stayed are now Israeli citizens, ~20% of the population there.
I have a hard time seeing immigrating somewhere and legally buying the land as cause for violence or as an instigating cause for this long, violent conflict, nor can I fault Israel for annexing the lands of a those who declared war on them and lost.
But it just further proves the situation is a grey area where the only “good sides” are the civilians crushed in conflict.
Indeed. Sadly, in war, civilians usually suffer. At some point both sides are going to have to decide they like peace more than their ideal political goals.
So how do power dynamics work for you? Do you think the little guy’s voice is always heard in this just world? Do you think that when you are vulnerable the powerful will step in to help? Because right now, the Palestinians have a double dicking of IDF supported by the US. Do you think the Palestinians or even Hamas has any leverage whatsoever? Because by the way its going, I don’t think they have shit.
You’re jumping in every post defending Israel. But why? We are standing on the other side of the world, handing people our bombs to blow up other people we don’t know. I don’t know about you, but that means I don’t really have a dog in this race except for my tax dollars and morality.
Usually, the institution with the money and bigger military has the power to capitulate. Because they’re less vulnerable and more able to take risks. If you think the small guerrilla force has the power here, you should probably review the last 80 years in the middle east AND watch Star Wars for good measure. Theres a reason the rebels didn’t negotiate, and its relatively similar here ironically enough.
I think there’s a lot more to this conflict than little guy/big guy. Sometimes the underdog isn’t the hero. Sometimes one must acknowledge hard realities. I think Palestinians had all the leverage at one point but they squandered it by launching one failed war after another. Unfortunately many people just see what appears to be a superpower punching down asymmetrically and react to that without greater historical context.
A few reasons:
1) While they certainly have their faults, I believe Israel is the more sympathetic party. Why?:
2) The Realpolitik.
3) Balance.
Well at least I understand where you are coming from now. I will say your arguments about the Palestinian’s choices are a little weak, as we can see from your sources Hamas barely won by a small margin. But I have some insight now on why people are siding with Israel. Cause you’re right. I mostly see a strong nation backed by a world power bombing a miniscule nation. I can’t say I agree with all of your points, as I think we’re looking at 50+ years of an eye for an eye. Also, you claim instigation on the side of the Palestinians, when Israel was literally made from Palestinian land that the British government was in administration of. I fail to see how they instigated that. But it just further proves the situation is a grey area where the only “good sides” are the civilians crushed in conflict. I still believe the more powerful nations have the authority to call for a ceasefire, but thank you for sharing your perspective.
I’m glad that I could provide some understanding, I’ve been learning a lot myself. It was an interesting exercise to sum up the basis for my position in one post since there’s a lot going on in this conflict, (I hit the character count limit.)
Hamas and Fatah, a group with its own history of terrorism, combined got 86% of the vote. This combined with the survey linked above paint a clear picture of overwhelming approval of intifada.
They started off legally buying the land, Most of the early massacres under mandatory Palestine were instigated by Palestinian Arabs. Arab nationalism and xenophobia got the cycle of violence going in earnest, leading to militancy and reprisals and riots, causing the British to conclude that a one-state solution was not viable. Had they not, Israel and Palestine might have been one, a pluralistic state.
The British left, kicking the problem to the UN. Israel declared themselves a nation with the borders the UN created for them, then they immediately had war declared on them by Arab nations all around them on behalf of the Palestinians, who did not like the borders. Israel won against incredible odds, then annexed the lands of those who left. Descendants of Arab Palestinians who stayed are now Israeli citizens, ~20% of the population there.
I have a hard time seeing immigrating somewhere and legally buying the land as cause for violence or as an instigating cause for this long, violent conflict, nor can I fault Israel for annexing the lands of a those who declared war on them and lost.
Indeed. Sadly, in war, civilians usually suffer. At some point both sides are going to have to decide they like peace more than their ideal political goals.
jewishvirtuallibrary is where I turn to when I want impartial facts about israel and its surroundings. legit