• EndlessApollo@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Has it seriously not occurred to zionists that there’s a middle step between doing absolutely nothing and leveling the entire building? Send troops in there to liberate the hospital. A lot fewer innocents will die, and yea more IDF troops will die that way, but in what fucking universe is it preferable to murder civilians than to run a risky military operation? Even if Hamas kills a bunch of patients or doctors in retaliation there will surely be more survivors than if you just bomb the place. But nope, apparently Israeli lives are worth infinitely more than those of Palestinian civilians, so the best solution is to murder all Palestinians so they’re not a “threat” to Israel

    • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      A lot fewer innocents will die, and yea more IDF troops will die that way, but in what fucking universe is it preferable to murder civilians than to run a risky military operation?

      A lot fewer innocent palestinians. Why do you expect the Israeli government to prioritise the lives of Palestinian over their own citizens when trying to smack out a terrorist threat? I agree wholeheartedly that the attacks must stop and a ceasefire should be declared but comments like this which just present a simple solution and outright ignore the obvious reason that is not happening just distract from conversations we should be having.

      • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Why do you expect the Israeli government to prioritise the lives of Palestinian over their own citizens when trying to smack out a terrorist threat?

        Because they were instrumental in creating that terrorist threat in the first place, not only by perpetrating ethnic cleansing but by directly funding Hamas in the 70s and 80s as a counterbalance against the secular PLO.

        • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I mean America funded and trained what became al qaeda as well. If your only justification here is Israel was aligned with another government 40 years ago and that means their personally responsible for all the people under that government jurisdiction while in hostilities with it then you’re talking crazy. The Palestinians are hamass responsibility as their representative. It sucks hamas doesn’t care about them and most Palestinians would reject them if able but i don’t get why that then means Israel is meant to care instead. Theirs a case for moral compassion from Israel but that flies out the window when hamas is actively attacking them from Palestinian territories. I’d be more inclined to support your viewpoint if hamas was only attacking Palestinians and Israel let them do it because they supported their rise to power in the past.

          • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            If your only justification here is

            The first thing I mentioned was ethnic cleansing, which tends to radicalize people after a few decades of it.

            But also, Israel has Palestine inside a literal fucking fence. They control the fucking water supply. Yes, they are responsible for Palestine

            • Albatross2724@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I like how they quite literally skipped past the decades of ethnic cleansing to address Israel’s financial ties to Hamas and then proceed to complain that’s the only negative factor at play regarding Israel’s control over Palestinian lives. Just straight up bad faith posturing.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              They seem to be pretty bad at ethnic cleansing. When Israel was founded there were less than 300 thausand Palestinians in Gaza. Now there are more than 2 million.

              • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                driving them out of their homes and into shrinking, increasingly crowded prison cities with horrendous living conditions is ethnic cleansing. But they also have killed many thousands of Palestinians, not counting the 11,000 since Oct 7.

    • trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com
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      1 year ago

      No sane team lead would accept a mission like that. That’s just asking for massive friendly casualties.

      Kicking in doors has an extremely high death toll, especially if it’s a known base, of course they’re going to level it instead of committing a team that’s definitely going to get blown up by ied’s and killed in ambushes.

      In order to effectively suppress and seize that hospital, you’re asking that at least 100-200 friendlies die during the operation to take a building that’s a known travel route to their tunnels which house thousands of hamas and related fighters and their kit. Given the level of failure of the intel community in Isreal right now, no one operations side is going to take their word that it’s safe to send a team into that hospital.

      It’s a hospital when it’s in operation, right now it’s a terrorist base of operations SPECIFICALLY because it was a hospital.

      See: https://ground.news/article/hamas-has-command-center-under-al-shifa-hospital-us-official-says

        • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I mean, they signed off to protect Israelis. If Palestine were Israeli citizens then maybe they’d have some obligation to risk their lives to minimise damage to them but otherwise why should they? Soldiers aren’t expected to sacrifice themselves for foreign citizens. Hell some are just brutally sadistic towards them with legal impunity because the citizens of one government have next to no rights in the other aside from whats deemed diplomatically useful and even that is beyond the purview of the average soldier. Theres a reason America switched to using drone strikes on enemy infrastructure instead of sending their soldiers. That has the exact same trade off as well which is more civilian casualties and less soldier casualties. The bad thing here is israel is actively targetting civilian infrastructure and hamas is known to hide in such infrastructure, both things raising the innocent casualty rate immensely.

          • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            . If Palestine were Israeli citizens then maybe they’d have some obligation to risk their lives to minimise damage to them but otherwise why should they?

            Got it, human life not worth much to Israeli soldiers if they are not Jewish and/or Israeli. By the actions of Isralis in the West Bank, I would say the Israeli government doesn’t value “Arab Israeli” lives that much either.

            Soldiers aren’t expected to sacrifice themselves for foreign citizens.

            No, but they are also not expected to keep an apartheid state running but here we are.

            The bad thing here is israel is actively targetting civilian infrastructure and hamas is known to hide in such infrastructure, both things raising the innocent casualty rate immensely.

            The bad thing here is israel is actively targetting civilian infrastructure and hamas is known to hide in such infrastructure, both things raising the innocent casualty rate immensely.

            If you can’t see how it’s directly Israeli soldiers that “shoot through babies to kill a terrorist”, then I can’t help you. If you are unable to see how these people all died from Israeli missiles directly, that Israel could have not fired if it was a self-respecting humanitarian nation… then I can’t help you, sorry.

            • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Got it, human life not worth much to Israeli soldiers if they are not Jewish and/or Israeli. By the actions of Isralis in the West Bank, I would say the Israeli government doesn’t value “Arab Israeli” lives that much either.

              You’re grandstanding. I’m sure many soldiers care about the Palestinians plight in this situation because their human beings. I’m saying their not obligated to, not that they don’t. It’s not their responsibility as a consequence of their role. Even if it was do you think an individual soldiers is defining on the ground policy. Like command comes down to level a building and a band of soldiers just join together and say “no, I’ll go in myself and confirm the threat alone” like some cheesy American movie.

              No, but they are also not expected to keep an apartheid state running but here we are.

              What exactly do you think is a soldiers job? because they don’t determine diplomatic policy. That’s on politicians. One of their responsibilities is helping enforce that policy but they don’t exactly have a choice here if they want to protect Israelis. Just quitting and getting discharged ain’t exactly gonna stop hamas pulling shit like the October attack.

              If you can’t see how it’s directly Israeli soldiers that “shoot through babies to kill a terrorist”, then I can’t help you. If you are unable to see how these people all died from Israeli missiles directly, that Israel could have not fired if it was a self-respecting humanitarian nation… then I can’t help you, sorry.

              Everyone could just not do things. Hamas could’ve just not attacked in October and killed a bunch of innocent civilians. Hamas could just not keep the hostages they’ve taken and return them so Israel isn’t incentivised to level Palestine to the ground to find them. This isn’t a rational line of reasoning. If you’re outraged and upset that’s fine, frankly it would be weirder if anyone wasn’t given this clusterf*ck of a situation. But that doesn’t mean you can just make large generic points and obvious lapses in reasoning and not get called out on it.

              • trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com
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                1 year ago

                This snek guy is likely a basement dweller going full keyboard warrior and pretending to be arabic as the cherry on top. I’m like 90% they’re trolling

                • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Pretending to be Arab? Are you fucking kidding me? 😂 This is your best criticism?

                  إسرائيل واجرامها كله والغبا اللي بشوفه مكتوب هون لثقبة طيزي انشاالله

                  • trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com
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                    1 year ago

                    The criticism was your integrity, not your alleged race.

                    Great google translate bro.

                    If you have to pull out a “trust me bro” instead of present facts of the matter that can be verified via search engines, you’ve already failed at the purpose of the discussion. I noted specialty along with direct information that can be directly corroborated with online reputable sources.

                    You backed your words up with ‘trust me bro’.

                    Tell me who, in that conversation, would you more likely listen to, the person who provided a detailed overview and perspective along with their noted background or the person who just says ‘i know everything about the middle east because I’m x race born in y town’?

                    You’ve only said I’m wrong without any substance to back that or presentations of understanding or experience, especially since you flopped entirely on the history aspect (especially if you are arabic, then you’d know the background of the USA is light in comparison). Either you’re too emotionally involved in the information you’ve been shown IRL or, as I suspect, you’re pushing an agenda rather than an opinion.

              • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I don’t doubt IDF soldiers are human beings. I do doubt though that propaganda that dehumanized Palestinians makes it easier for them to kill.

                That being said, I recommend the Breaking the Silence foundation where IDF soldiers talk about the kind of war crimes they are sent out to do as part of their missions and how wrong it is, and how much they are encouraged to shoot to hurt or kill.

                https://youtube.com/@IKARlosangeles?feature=shared

                Everyone could just not do things. Hamas could’ve just not attacked in October and killed a bunch of innocent civilians.

                Hamas is done. What Israel can do is not do things they are doing right now. I’m not talking about changing the past just challenging the ugly present created by Israel.

        • trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com
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          1 year ago

          It’s not the IDF’s responsibility to protect Palestinians, it’s HAMAS’, the legally elected government of Palestine… You know, the country which just launched an attack against Israel to which Israel responded with violence and then hamas hid behind civilians in a hospital.

          Can’t have missed it, it’s been all over the news.

          • المنطقة عكف عفريت@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I thought it was the IDF’s responsibility not to kill civilians directly? Does it matter which kind of civilians they are? Or does Israel like to play favorites where one Palestinian is not worth a tenth of an Israeli?

            (and meh to your snarky comment)

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Does that honestly come as a surprise to you? Nations states are inherently selfish, it’s kind of their whole reason for being.

    • firadin@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Has it seriously not occurred to zionists that there’s a middle step between doing absolutely nothing and leveling the entire building?

      But where’s the genocide in that?

    • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      Shouldn’t your reasoning mean that we should only sacrifice German, US and British soldiers there?

      It is their fault Israel exists like it does now. Every Israeli or Palestinian who dies is an innocent and only US Americans, Germans and Brits should be killed by Hamas.

      But what about the reasons for the world wars? So it’s actually Italians who should go and die there! Since it was the Romans actions that lead to the situations which evolved into the first world war!