I’m asking because it is really difficult to find a place for discussing accessibility in Fediverse posts beyond the limits of any one Fediverse server application.
I’m looking for something
- in the Fediverse
- with technology that supports discussions
- where users know the Fediverse beyond whatever software that particular place is running on
- where users know something about how and why to make Fediverse posts accessible for e.g. blind users
- where users take this topic seriously instead of seeing it as a gimmick
- where it’s likely enough for someone to reply to posts
Mastodon takes accessibility very seriously. But Mastodon users never look beyond Mastodon. Every other Mastodon user doesn’t even know that the Fediverse is more than only Mastodon. Most of those who do have no idea what the rest of the Fediverse is like, including what it can do that Mastodon can’t, and what it can’t do that Mastodon can. Many Mastodon users even reject the Fediverse outside Mastodon, and be it because it “refuses” to fully adopt Mastodon’s culture and throw its own cultures overboard. This would include using features that Mastodon doesn’t have. You’re easily being muted or blocked upon first strike if you dare to post more than 500 characters at once.
I myself am mostly on Hubzilla. Not only is Hubzilla vastly more powerful than Mastodon, it is also vastly different, and being older than Mastodon as well, it had grown its own culture before Mastodon came along. Still, three out of four Mastodon users have never even heard of the existence of Hubzilla, and many who do are likely to think it’s basically Mastodon with a higher character count, extra stuff glued on and a clunky UI.
If you try to discuss Fediverse accessibility on Mastodon, you end up only discussing Mastodon accessibility with exactly zero regards, understanding or interest for what the rest of the Fediverse is like.
Besides, Mastodon has no good support for conversations and no real concept of threads. It is impossible to follow a discussion thread or to even only know that there have been new replies without having been mentioned in these replies. Thus, any attempt at discussing something on Mastodon is futile.
Hubzilla itself is great for discussions. It even has had groups/forums as a feature from the very beginning. In practice, however, it has precious few forums. The same applies to (streams) even more.
Discussing Fediverse accessibility is completely futile on both. They don’t “do accessibility”. To their users, alt-text is some fad that was invented on Mastodon, and Hubzilla and (streams) don’t do Mastodon crap, full stop. In fact, their users hate Mastodon with a passion for deliberately, intentionally being so limited and trying to push its own limitations, its proprietary, non-standard solutions and its culture upon the rest of the Fediverse. At the same time, they don’t really know that much about Mastodon, and they aren’t interested in it.
Most of this applies to Friendica as well, but Hubzilla and (streams) users sometimes go as far as disabling ActivityPub altogether to keep Mastodon and the other ActivityPub-based microblogging projects out, and they don’t care if Friendica ends up collateral damage. They hate the non-nomadic majority of the Fediverse that much.
If you try to discuss Fediverse accessibility on Hubzilla, nobody would know what you’re even talking about, and nobody would want to know because they take it for another stupid Mastodon fad. They probably don’t even understand why I accept connection requests from Mastodon in the first place.
Here on Lemmy, I’ve seen a number of dedicated accessibility communities. But they seem to be only about accessibility on the greater Web and in real life and not a bit about accessibility in the Fediverse specifically. I’m not even sure if Lemmy itself “does accessibility” in any way. And I’m not sure how aware Lemmy is of the Fediverse beyond Lemmy, /kbin and Mastodon.
Besides, these communities aren’t much more than the admin posting stuff and nobody ever replying. So I guess trying to actually discuss something there is completely useless. If I post a question, I’ll probably never get a reply.
The reason why I’m asking here first is because this community is actually active enough for people to reply to posts. But I’m not sure if it’s good for discussing super-specific details about making non-Threadiverse Fediverse posts accessible.
Thanks. I’ve learned a lot.
In the end I still don’t understand that specific culture. I’ve scrolled through a few of the hashtags and links you gave. Some of them I’d shorten to half the length. That some bubbles in an infographic have different color is completely useless information without telling what they’re trying to convey with the color and how that connects things. Other images I think they describe the details that are just fluff. Those details are irrelevant because they just set the atmosphere. Just say what the armosphere is, then. I think that’s making the text too long and all over the place. Making it difficult to focus on what’s really going on in the picture, what’s important, because there’s so much noise added.
But some of the descriptions are really next level good. I wouldn’t have expected that. I think I need some more time to familiarize myself with that culture. I can’t tell if it’s some people being ultra good at it and some people mimicking it without really understanding its purpose… Or it’s me not grasping the concept / culture.
If you say you’re already adding a concise description and a long one and adding that to the body text… Seems I’ve arrived with my reasoning somwhere near what you’ve already been doing.
I see now why you’d like to talk about the Fediverse as you originally said. Seems to me like a matter of the Fediverse not interconnecting the way you’d need it to. And I see a fundamental problem here. I got that you’re using Hubzilla. But we’ve got to think about the perspective of a Mastodon user as long as most of your audience is there. And that platform is meant for short chunks of text. The whole platform and interface is designed to cater to that. And you’re doing long blog posts. There is a fundamental split between the two. Yet the platforms interconnect. I don’t see a way to make messages short and long at the same time. And the Fediverse is about connecting a diverse set of platforms. There is bound to be some difficulty and I don’t know if there is a good solution.
And your perspective might be a bit spoiled. Since you’re on Hubzilla and that’s meant for a wide variety of tasks. And Mastodon on the other side is meant to narrow things down to the use-case of microblogging… It’s kind of per design that your content falls through in the process of narrowing it down. And lot’s of Fediverse platforms are meant for one task only. Either pictures or videos or threaded conversations like here. That also doesn’t translate to other platforms and looks weird on Mastodon. The users of “all-in-one” platforms like Hubzilla or Friendica etc get it all. But then it get’s problematic when interconnecting to users of “narrower” platforms. It’s always been that way. And I don’t see a way around that. At least fundamentally.
And this manifests in the smaller issues you’re having. Like alt-text and culture that’s different amongst platforms. It’s all consequence of connecting diverse places. With your added explanation, I think I’ve now homed in on your issue…
Lemmy seems to be the wrong place to discuss it. I don’t see the users here have and particular knowledge about such topics. And Lemmy doesn’t federate in any unique way that’d make it stand out concerning this. It’s a good place for discussion, though. Mastodon’s choice to narrow down social media is valid. So if they like not to have long text, it’s their choice. And I applaud them for developing their own culture. I’m not sure if there is a good place to discuss this. Maybe within the “all-in-one” platforms like Hubzilla. You’re bound to find more people with the same struggles there. But you also want to reach us and the Mastodon users. I mean these places are also about linking external content and blog posts. So linking a Hubzilla blog post starting a discussion about this is the best thing I can come up with. But you need to lay down the groundworks properly. I mean it also took me several back and forths to understand the core of the issue. And it’s kind of a niche topic in a niche. So brace for little engagement or interest.
By professional Web design standards, you’re right. But this is part of Mastodon’s culture, too: detailed image descriptions that nobody would ever put on a Web site. As long as more people praise than directly criticise it, this won’t change.
The people who introduced alt-text to Mastodon and cultivated its alt-text culture were complete amateurs on smartphones who wanted to do something good for blind or visually-impaired users so that they can participate, too. And not professional Web designers who live and breathe WCAG 2.2.
Yes, I do, and I gave you a link as proof. If you don’t know how to access alt-text, and you’re on a computer, then hover your mouse cursor steadily above the image, and the alt-text will appear.
Exactly this is how Mastodon tries to force its culture upon the whole rest of the Fediverse. For example, this is how Mastodon tries to force Friendica to abandon its own culture which is six years older than Mastodon’s culture and adopt Mastodon’s culture instead.
“We’re the majority, so we get to decide how things are done! This is our territory, our Fediverse now!”
If Lemmy had better federation with Mastodon, Mastodon would try to do the same thing with Lemmy.
In other words, the whole Fediverse should succumb to both technological limitations/limitations in concept and cultural limitations on Mastodon. If Mastodon can’t do it, or if Mastodon users don’t like it, users of Pleroma and Akkoma and Misskey and Firefish and Iceshrimp and Sharkey and Friendica and Hubzilla etc. etc. pp. must not make use of it.
In which way should Mastodon adjust itself to the technology and culture of non-Mastodon projects? And do you honestly believe Mastodon would actually do any of that?
Speaking of technological limitations on Mastodon, I have pretty few to worry about.
If I post 60,000+ characters, Mastodon display the very self-same 60,000+ characters. No problem.
If I put 1,500 characters into the alt-text, Mastodon takes over all 1,500 characters. No problem. That is, if I write more, they’re truncated, but Misskey and its forks does the same.
If I put a Mastodon-style content warning into the summary field, Mastodon users get their content warning. No problem.
It’s only inline images that are a bit of a problem. Hubzilla has to turn a copy of the image into a file attachment and also copy the alt-text from the image embedding code into the attached image file so that Mastodon has at least got one way to show the image. But still, Mastodon gets the image, and Mastodon gets the alt-text.
Well, then there isn’t any place at all in the Fediverse or on the Web where I can go and ask e.g. whether illegible text in an image that I can read just fine at the source must, may or mustn’t be transcribed when writing an image description for a Fediverse post. There’s no such place at all.
Nope. What few Hubzilla users know Mastodon’s culture despise it deeply because Mastodon is trying to force it upon them. The vast majority of Hubzilla’s users knows nothing about Mastodon’s culture.
Also, I’m very very likely the only Hubzilla user who puts alt-text on images. And I’m definitely the only Hubzilla user who adds a long, detailed image description in the post itself on top.
Hubzilla’s culture doesn’t know accessibility, and it doesn’t care. Same goes for Friendica. Friendica’s alt-text handling is actually buggy, but the only Friendica user who even only tries to write alt-text apparently doesn’t know how to file a bug report on a Git repository.
In fact, throughout the Fediverse, Mastodon is the only project for whose users alt-text and image descriptions are really serious business. For people everywhere else, it’s largely a stupid gimmick or completely unknown.
I’ve learned that much. If I want to discuss something concerning Mastodon someplace else than Mastodon, I’ll first have to explain how Mastodon works and how Mastodon deviates from what people are used to where I post. Then I’ll have to explain Mastodon’s user community, who they are in general, where they came from, how most of them are tech-illiterates on phones, and half of them think Mastodon is the Fediverse. Then I’ll have to explain Mastodon’s culture and give a few links to demonstrate it.
Since all this would be tl;dr, I’d have to explain it by and by and in such ways that my explanations are remembered by the other users.
Then and only then I can ask for advice. That is, probably not even then because all advice I could expect would be 100% based on information that I myself have provided, and I’d be none the wiser.