New evidence strongly suggests that OceanGate’s submersible, which imploded and killed all passengers on its way to the Titanic wreck, was unfit for the journey. The CEO, Stockton Rush, bought discounted carbon fiber past its shelf life from Boeing, which experts say is a terrible choice for a deep-sea vessel. This likely played a role in the submersible’s tragic demise.
It could have been fresh from the factory and would have had the same result It was an improper application of the material to save on the more expensive titanium Same with the acrylic viewport, while not the best material it’s the design that was non-standard Quartz would have been better but more expensive Not the time to cheap out on materials, design, nor experience when lives are on the line
Fresh from the factory might have got away with it, they tried to reuse a vessel that was barely useable for 1 journey and had known material flaws that would have limited the number of pressurisation cycles the craft could have taken.
The CEO fired the employee who warned him that the sub was unsafe and needed more stringent testing.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submarine-oceangate-hull-safety-lawsuit/
I think most billionaires have a bit of their brain set to believe in themselves rather more than is warranted. It’s great for making money, but maybe not something you want to put your life on the line over.
I think it scratches a similar itch as most techbros: “if I can solve this hard problem, all problems are easy!” It’s a mentality I see constantly, especially on the orange site.
It’s worse than that. They’re narcissistic and think they have the answer to every problem. I worked for a boss like this who had Aspergers syndrome (undiagnosed, but clear case)
He literally had bumper stickers made up with “[his name] is the answer” - he wasn’t joking. If there ever was a problem he would immediately solve the problem in his mind, and that was the way we MUST do it. He would not accept rationalization as to why that might be a bad idea. I learned real fast not to tell him we had a problem… until I already had a proposal, who was involved, and costs involved to fix the problem before he had a chance to solve the problem himself.
As someone with family on the autism spectrum myself, I’ve found they’re usually fairly open to whatever the facts are whether that disproves them or not. There’s a lot of overlap at times between narcissistic traits and autism, are you sure he just wasn’t a narcissist? I say that because refusing to accept the rationalization of what may be a bad idea just sounds dumb. (The bumper stickers made stand out to me too).
Alternatively he was just someone with autism who is narcissistic and with an ego who refused to accept any new information that countered what he had settled on.
I worked with him for 13 years, I wasn’t the only one who saw the classic traits
- Difficulty in reading other’s feelings
- Aggressive behavior (childishly would throw his keyboard or trashcan across the room during meetings when unhappy with the answers he got)
- Clumsy muscle coordination
- Inability to perceive gestures by coworkers
- Lack of social awareness
The list goes on and on. But needless to say he refused to accept he might have been on the spectrum or get tested despite suggestions by fellow staff members who also dealt with his irrational outbursts on a daily basis
I think is just that it depends on the person, like some ppl might be less open than others bc thats just how they are whether or not they were ND. Maybe thats just how hise personality is or how his traits manifest
Problem: exists for decades and has not been solved by experts with tons of funding in all that time.
Redditor with zero knowledge or context: Why don’t they just do X, Y, Z? It’s so easy 😏
In this case, the problem was solved over 60 years ago. This billionaire decided to reject the tried and tested solution and came up with their own.
I like asking the “why don’t they…” question as a genuine question because it’s a great way to learn a lot in a short time
especially on the orange site.
Hacker News can be so engaging, but then you go to the comments and it’s so enraging.
It’s implicit bias.
Our forefathers has orchestrated a world of scarcity. They raised us telling us how America is in overwheming, inescapable debt (even though that debt is a useful byproduct of our financial excess and has no deleterious effects on our future) and how everything will always cost something and how we are fools for ever thinking anything could be better than this, right?
After living through that, if you become a billionaire you must feel like you are by and large exempted from those rules.
Agreed. You need a bit or a lot of narcissism.
A bit of the ‘it wont happen to me’ mindset.
I had a good bit of thought about this too… This kind of mindset should never be allowed in customer-facing fields in the first place (cough cough all the social media privacy hellhole we are in today…), let alone ones that risk human lives tbh.
but maybe not something you want to put your life on the line over.
To be fair, their hubris usually only kills poor people so, progress?
There was a study done on this kind of mentality. Researches invited pairs of players and before each game flipped a coin to designate one player rich and the other poor. The rich player was then given more money and an easier set of rules. At the end of the game they interviewed the player that inevitably won, and in all cases the players reported that they won because of key decisions they made while playing. Not one mentioned they got lucky with the coin flip.
Summary and interview with a researcher: https://www.marketplace.org/2021/01/19/why-rich-people-tend-think-they-deserve-their-money/amp/
Study (pdf): https://studenttheses.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2661526/view
I’m surprised this isn’t a named sort of cognitive bias. I think there’s a related thing where we humans tend to cite external causes outside our control when we are unfortunate or make mistakes, and we tend to cite our own virtues when we are fortunate and successful.
I think this would be considered Self-serving bias.
I just wish he didn’t bring others with him with his hubris. The more info that comes out about this guy, the worse and sadder it gets
Hah! Talk about getting what you pay for. This is why you don’t cut corners on parts that can kill you if they malfunction.
That fucking website have my phone cancer
For 250k you can see that website.
The interesting thing is he really seemed to believe he knows better than all the experts.
There are reasons why ships and planes are all highly regulated. Its called physics.
I’m so conflicted on this. On the one hand he seems like a giant asshole that saves on safety to make a few more bucks but on the other hand he trusted his system completely and died with it. So not really greedy asshole but stupid entrepreneur who didn’t realize how wrong he was?
I guess society needs people like him that make crazy things. Science itself is pretty much like this, trying out stuff and be creative. People often made inventions while other people were telling them that it would be impossible to do so.
However, I think where he actually behaved really like an asshole was taking people with him who he made believe to be in a safe vessel. He could have made a disclaimer saying something like “this is an experimental vessel, I’m not sure if it will hold up and people have warned me. I still want to take the risk and you can come, too, if you are willing to take the same risk.”
Science itself is pretty much like this, trying out stuff and be creative.
absolutely not. he wasn’t some creative pioneer exploring the unknown. he was a moron that operated in the environment that is known and explored in great detail and just decided to cut on the costs by ignoring all the best practices.
Taking risks for the sake of innovation, fine, I guess it has to be done to move forward. However, building a submersible that can go to these depths is nothing new. Been there, done that, basically. To throw all lessons learnt with previous vehicles out with the garbage is just monumentally stupid.
Engineers and scientists do try to do and make crazy things but they try to do it safely, and doing it safely costs money which he didn’t want to spend.
I guess the most positive spin is that he risked and gave his life to try new things which can progress things more quickly, but he didn’t just risk his own life, he risked the passengers which is unforgivable. If he were doing it solo to not endanger others then I could respect that.
I agree with you. It kind of itches me that he was just so ignorant of already established knowledge. But then, this is exactly the point where we fall blind to alternative solutions because we are limited by our prior established rules. So I didn’t want to judge, but yes he seemed to be very ignorant.
I would respect it for some team doing something as risky, that’s what I wanted to express. That he took paying customers was unethical imo.
I’d bet they signed release forms which said pretty much exactly that.
Thing is, as James Cameron pointed out in his interviews, this is not a cutting-edge field. The science of submersibles is well explored and the technologies are mature. Engineers know exactly how to construct a safe submersible to go as deep as you want. There are companies like this that specialize in making these submersibles.
This guy was not doing research or experimentation. He was trying to cut costs because he probably couldn’t afford a proper submersible under his business model and still make a profit. The only reason for using unconventional materials - materials that are well known to be unsuitable for this purpose - was that he thought he could do it more cheaply if he didn’t go through safety certification or buy a sub that had already been certified.
It’s one thing if he died alone and another when he took other 4 people with him. I would still chalk it up to greedy asshole, because he cheap out things that would’ve saved the four people.
The fact he started charging after several warnings from Industry players does raise the asshole angle
Both. The drive to be a cheap pos caused him to believe he knew more than he did.
A greedy asshole who thought himself a genius?
The word is arrogant.
Hubristic, delusional.
Physics is just a concept for lame traditional non-disruptors, with the power of magical thinking and endless money we can make hyperloop work!
It’s almost as if someone built a giant ship they were incapable of operating
the screen was mounted by screws into the carbon fiber. fuckin’ what!?
what’s wrong?
Don’t you drill holes into the fibers of the carbon-fiber therefore rupturing the fibers and negating all the tensile strength of the material?
are you stupid? everybody does it…
*Late / recently deceased CEO
Lol fiberglass
This is why submarines are built out of steel.
This “engineer” failed at math class.
I am saddened as I read to think about the fact this could’ve been avoided.
It should have been avoided. Facts tell us very clearly it could not have been: there has been zero regulatory appetite for this activity, in the U.S. or elsewhere. And adventure-seekers will amuse themselves even at the expense of other’s lives. Amoral profiteers abound. Caveat Emptor.
How would they even stop people from doing something like this in international waters with willing participants?
According to encyclopedia Britannica, the laws of the country owning the vessel are applicable.
https://www.britannica.com/story/are-there-laws-on-the-high-seas
They build, sell tickets, and launch from somewhere … OceanGate is run from offices in Everett, Washington, USA.
I mean, it’s insanely easy to avoid being crushed at the bottom of the ocean in a homemade discount sub that everyone has tried to warn you is unsafe…just don’t try to go to the bottom of the ocean in a homemade discount sub that everyone has tried to warn you is unsafe…
I mean, it’s insanely easy to avoid being crushed at the bottom of the ocean in a homemade discount sub that everyone has tried to warn you is unsafe
Tell me about it! I’ve been able to avoid it for 30 years, and I haven’t even really been trying that hard!
I mean things like the travelling funnfair are still a thing, people die on travelling carnival rides every year…similar thing, thrill seeking dangerous shit
Everyone warned the CEO, but it seems the CEO did everything he could to cover that up and mislead the passengers.
Also the 19 year old was apparently pressured into going despite his fears by his dad.
I’m saddened by the amount of taxpayer money that was spent searching for 5 millionaires who went missing while on a joyride in a test vehicle.
I doubt it was much of an added expense. The search was carried out by Coast Guard and Navy personnel, who would be getting paid regardless.
If the sub hadn’t gone missing, it’s quite likely their time and resources would have been spent on practicing some sort of rescue mission.
The search was carried out by Coast Guard and Navy personnel, who would be getting paid regardless.
Bro the major cost in moving a host of ships is not the hourly wage of the sailors lol
They do drills and such when they’re not doing rescues. The ships move regardless.
I hear you. The best I can do is tell myself that hopefully the Coast Guard personnel and other mariners got some practice/training which will be useful in emergencies in the future. And it’s still right to try and save someone, even if they put themselves in the dangerous situation.
Actually, money could have been saved… here’s why:
- The US Navy’s submarine detection network heard a “boom” on the day of the implosion, which they kept close to their chests…
- Sounded the alarm, they spent money and resources looking for something they were almost sure was lost…
- After the expiration of time when the submarine “could be recoverable” was when they said “well… we did heard something the other day”…
Imagine the other possible scenario where the say on the first day “Hey, the sub imploded, we heard it on our underwater microphones, we won’t spend money looking for these people…”
And then a future investigation reveals that they got stuck somewhere or lost power but were “buoyant” for 48 hours or so, and died for lack of oxygen when no one was looking for them.Can you imagine the lawsuits?
Easier way to say it is that there was just no way to be sure what that boom was.
This. They had no way to be sure that the sound they detected was from the sun imploding. From the standpoint of the search crew, it makes much more sense to continue until you can verify without a doubt that you detected the failure.
This is a tragic situation but your typo is very funny
I’m glad they were wrong, the sun imploding would be pretty bad
Whoops
You are too far along in the chain of causalities. The tax payer money was wasted the moment they went under water with an unfit “sub”. The search was only necessary because of that.
From my limited experience with laying up carbon fiber, I know there’s the raw carbon fiber cloth and there’s liquid resin that you spread into the cloth. It’s also very common to see carbon fiber cloth that is “pre-impregnated” - the resin is already applied to the cloth. Everyone calls this “pre-preg”.
So I’ve seen a lot of folks online scratching their heads about “how can carbon expire?” or “my carbon fiber (bike/boat/etc.) is N-years old, is it expired?” but I think the most likely thing to expire is the resin. Once the resin is cured it is much more stable.
Any materials folks or structures engineers who want step in and correct me, please do.
Also most bikes aren’t under enough pressure to cause them to implode
Different loads, different failures, but still a valid safety concern.
I would not want my bike frame or fork to be made with expired resin. But the age of the bike after the CF is cured is a different matter.
Not with that attitude.
Relevant IT Crowd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elrV-oHeSjE
STRESS
Lmao
<insert yo mama joke here>
Actually CF road bikes only have a safe lifespan of about 10 years - https://icancycling.com/blogs/articles/lifespan-of-road-bike-frame
So I’ve seen a lot of folks online scratching their heads about “how can carbon expire?” or “my carbon fiber (bike/boat/etc.) is N-years old, is it expired?” but I think the most likely thing to expire is the resin.
Well it would have an expiry if purchased from Boeing. All materials used in aircraft have stringent performance requirements. Resin is a plastic and like all plastics it degrades over time. It can lose strength and fail to meet materials ratings. Now if you wanted to make something like a regular boat hull out of the stuff it would probably last a lifetime, but if you want to make something like an airplane wing, that’s a different story.
Anyway carbon fiber composite is stronger and lighter than steel, but the wonderful thing about metals is they can have good properties for supporting all kinds of loads. But even then you have to inspect for fatigue on a regular basis when loads cycle repeatedly. Carbon fiber doesn’t do as well with that.
I agree with all of that. My intuition is that prior to curing, the polymers are less stable and may change in unpredictable ways depending on subtleties in the storage environment and handling. After curing, the polymers are much more stable and durable.
Metals definitely are more forgiving, and we have better tools for testing, especially non-destructive testing. Whether the CF flaws are due to fatigue or workmanship, it’s easy to miss them in inspection.
I’m also curious what the sub designers saw as the advantage of CF for this application. Is light weight really all that advantageous for a submersible? Generally no one chooses CF if they are prioritizing cost.
I don’t see where it fits as a good solution either. Typically it’s used where weight is the main consideration, such as in aircraft. CF is more expensive, has higher maintenance cost, and more difficult to produce than metal. Was it more about doing something different than doing it better? Well the tried an true method for deep sea submarines is a titanium sphere and that’s quite expensive so it probably was a lot cheaper.
In his scenario weight was a factor. They were trying to get the sub to be as light as possible so it could be operated from nearly any vessel. The goal was to have the sub and a launch sled that could be launched and recovered aboard a rented ship. This was all to save money; they didn’t want to have to purchase and outfit a special purpose support vessel.
I think the design was flawed from the start, proper stress testing would have revealed it. From what I understand they basically sent it down a few times and said all good, we’re done.
The sub did have titanium front and rear bulkheads. If their goal was to make it cheap and light, they might have done better hatching together a train of CF spheres. A cylinder is not strong enough.
Though to be fair, even the best design with the most rigorous testing can fail catastrophically. If that weren’t the case space flight would carry no risk. And space is easier to deal with than the pressure at 4km ocean depth. Still that doesn’t change my opinion of Rush, he was a hack.
Reminiscent of these clowns and their deadly water slide
At 169 feet tall, Verrückt was the tallest waterslide in the world. Riders plummeted down the nearly vertical 17-story chute—taller than Niagara Falls—at speeds up to 70 miles per hour. German for “insane,” Verrückt was designed to challenge the laws of physics. Visitors flocked to Schlitterbahn Water Park in Kansas City, Kansas, to experience its thrill.
That is, until August 7, 2016, when the raft that 10-year-old Caleb Schwab was riding went airborne and hit a metal pole supporting a safety net, resulting in his decapitation and instant death.
Nathan Truesdell, a filmmaker from nearby Missouri, heard about the devastating incident on the news. “My first thought was that it must have been a freak accident—what a horrible, horrible story,” Truesdell told me. “But once I took a closer look, I started to realize how complicated this story really was, and how this could have happened to anyone who went down that slide.”
The story, it turned out, was one of gross negligence, lax state regulations, and the consequences of hubris. Truesdell’s chilling short documentary The Water Slide, premiering on The Atlantic today, uses news and promotional footage to depict the ill-conceived project and its tragic fallout.
Even worse, in the only third party testing that was performed, by the University of Washington, they rated the original iteration of the Titan only up to 9800 ft. As far as I can tell, Oceangate never redesigned the sub after that, and still decided to take people to 13,000 ft.
Also, given that Rush would brag about how cheap the original hull was, I doubt they fully replaced it when they noticed cyclic fatigue in the sub later. To me it looks like they did some kind of shoddy repair. And that’s the Titan everyone ended up with.
Also, given that Rush would brag about how cheap the original hull was
I’ve seen some short interview clips with him and it seemed like he was proud of how cheaply and recklessly he was doing shit. I’d only have to talk to the guy for five minutes and make up my mind I’m not getting near anything he’s doing. Those ill-fated tourists had conversations with him a lot longer than that.
I’m seeing a lot of misconceptions in the replies. You have it mainly right from a very high level.
The reason why prepreg “expires” is simply that the resin system is mixed before being impregnated into the fibers, so it starts the curing reaction immediately. These resin systems are usually designed to cure properly at high temperatures, typically 250-400F depending on end-use, but they’ll still slowly react at lower temperatures. To further slow the reaction, prepreg is kept frozen. Prepreg also has two types of expirations: “shelf life” and “out life”. Shelf life is how long it can last frozen. Out life is how long it can last at room temp.
Theres a few issues that can happen when using expired prepreg. It can be harder to laminate since it will be too stiff and not as sticky. It won’t cure correctly causing failures in the resin.
Expired prepreg can be recertified by testing the material for those types of failures. Check if the prepreg can fold over a certain radius and stick to a certain angle without sliding off. Cure a sample and test it to see if cured properly.
It’s shocking how many corners one is willing to cut to save money even if it means lives.
Greed. Always greed.
Because this CEO bet his life on his ideas, this would be more about hubris than greed. If it were just greed, he would have bet someone else’s life.
He was trying to bet others lives too- offering greatly discounted rates for a trip and outright lying about the safety to try and convince others.
I know this entire sub was a shitshow, but… It had an interior wall. Stuff was mounted to that, not directly into the outer hull.
Do you have a source for that? I was trying to figure out if that was the case but couldn’t get evidence
Googling for “titan sub construction” and you can see pictures of it under construction, where the interior is clearly significantly smaller than the exterior, and there’s visible open space past an inner shell.
Apparently the pilot’s seat was on the toilet too. Like, what? How did nobody object to that?
At least they didnt screw anything much into the hull itself (I hope…)
Yes it was insulated and whatnot. It had structural issues but that wasnt one of them
reading this almost feels like it was merely an effort to perform the most expensive suicide ever.
But then again, it could also seems to have been stupidity and a failure to listen to experts.
Man seems to have been unable to get his head out his own ass and was basically hearing every issue and going “this is fine”
Seems like in any case, he deserves a Darwin award, just sucks that other people went down with him.
Welcome to many many many CEOs/entrepreneurs/MBAs. I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more often, then again it’s relatively rare to be in this kind of business and your own passenger
You can’t get sued by your customers if you’re dead *taps head
In this case, not suicide, but stupidity. You read the things this Stockton man was saying around and you notice it was a case of not knowing what he was dealing with. He also bragged that the certifications and security inspections were actually a burden to advance technology.
“If we make the sub less safe that will be better” -Rush Stockton (paraphrased)
my brother in christ safety IS advancement. the safer the sub the deeper it can go (kinda), which could allow room to introduce other things into the sub like a fancier cabin.
I’m beginning to suspect this Stockton man had a case of amooth brain…
