People arguing about the price of gas, but as soon as someone mentions driving an EV they’re “stupid” and woke
keep this shit out of here. ! politicalmemes@lemmy.world exists.
(And I personally blocked it)
Actually I just made an apolitical memes community, so everything here HAS to be political now. Sorry!
But gas prices are so high due to Biden lowering the supply by checks notes conditioning any expansion of renewable energy on first increasing the amount of federal land leased out for extraction of oil and gas many times over.
Huh. Guess BOTH parties are lying about him. Who’da thunk that the senator from MBNA (second biggest credit card company before being bought by Bank of America) would be on the side of big business? 🤔
I’m out of the loop here, had no clue that was a thing - sauce?
It’s part of the “inflation reduction act”, the very bill the Dem leadership touted as saving the environment, even though most of the announced CO2 reductions are to come from the scam that is carbon capture
Big citation needed on “most” co2 reductions come from carbon capture. If you have it I’d be interested, I couldn’t find anything suggesting that. It’s a huge bill that carbon capture is just one small part of. I do agree in most circumstances it’s talked about right now it’s a bit of a scam, especially the idea you’re going to be able to pull it out of the air at very low concentrations. Capturing carbon from existing fossil fuel facilities where the concentration may be much higher (something like 13% in many cases as opposed to like 0.04% in normal air) is something more worth exploring. Unless you’re suggesting all fossil fuel facilities shut down overnight, exploring ways to make facilities release less carbon is important. The cited article makes a big point about how the power plant emitted more than it captured. But how much would it have emitted without any capture it conspicuously leaves out. Without any capture it would emit more I would assume. Certainly it sounds like those Shell executives lied about how much it was capturing and the US needs to do more, not disagreeing there.
The inflation reduction act was still the most impactful climate act ever passed. You can argue to do more without pretending it was nothing. Dems wanted to do more as well, a lot of these compromises were to get one last senator to come along, and if we had more Dems in the senate they wouldn’t have done it. Or even a single fucking republican out of any of them of course who doesn’t want to actively destroy the earth. Save the most vicious attacks for the ones who deserve it most, not the ones actually trying to do something.
gas prices are so high because biden ate all of it
“BUT WHERE DO THEY THINK THAT POWER EVEN COMES FROM???”
Well, if someone would spend two seconds thinking about it, renewable are a good investment. It’s not like we want to stop burning coal today, but this argument gets me everytime.
Yeah… The power for my EV comes from my solar panels. Both a great investment. Now that the electricity company is raising rates on electricity usage, I’m even happier with my decision.
The only thing coal has going for it is you can burn it when the sun is down and the wind has stopped. Solar makes more financial sense
“On average, the marginal cost for the coal plants is $36 each megawatt hour, while new solar is about $24 each megawatt hour, or about a third cheaper.,Only one coal plant – Dry Fork in Wyoming – is cost competitive with the new renewables.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/30/us-coal-more-expensive-than-renewable-energy-study
Plus, burning fossil fuels in a dedicated generator in optimal conditions, then converting that to electricity, transferring that electricity over the grid to an electric car generates less emissions than burning it straight in an ICE engine to convert it into kinetic energy. Even if you ignore all the fossil fuels that are burned during extraction, transport and conversion before it gets to your local petrol station.
Exactly. Even if you’re not using renewables to charge your EV, they’re still significantly more fuel efficient due to the gains you get from producing energy in a power plant instead of through a small engine. I read somewhere that an EV with a 300 mile range is using the same amount of fuel to charge as if you were burning 3 gallons of gasoline.
expired
I’m one of those people, I guess, but I’m not such a Luddite that I don’t think electric is the way forward. Had to replace a very old car recently and low-end new was better than buying used. Bought a gas car that gets great fuel economy for a variety of very good reasons, but if I could have bought a Tesla made by Toyota/Honda, with huge range for economy car prices, I would probably have an EV.
Also worth noting: owning an EV is harder if you don’t own a house you can install charging hardware in.
Nearly 1 in 5 drivers or about 42 million people in the US can drive a stick. You have confused your peer group with everyone. Used manual cars are cheaper precisely because they are less in demand and cheaper to maintain to boot. Purportedly quality of automatic varies a lot which older cheaper cars being pretty shit. Remember when people are picking a car not everyone is picking from new mid tier new vehicles or last years models.
Idk if they’ll be any good, but I thought this was interesting as a manual car driver when I saw it.
Toyota, however, has patented a way to provide the look and feel of a manual transmission in an electric car. … The car’s torque and performance will be altered as you “shift” to provide the feel of a gas-powered vehicle.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/electric-manual-transmission
I’d still switch to an EV either way once I have a way to charge it at home
I will miss my manual transmission car. What do you not understand? I have a Honda Accord and the manual is what made it actually fun to drive. Feels so much more like driving, more engaged with what I am doing. Even my kid who resisted learning to drive it now always wants to take my car everywhere. This is likely my last gas powered car, a 2014 I bought new, but yes I love driving a manual shift car, never have I bought an automatic. Also clutch & manual gearbox so much cheaper to fix. When the automatic transmission fails, the car is basically totalled, and it will fail eventually.
I will miss my beloved manual shift car, yes.
Basically they’ve been told to hate it. The oil industry has spent millions pushing all kinds of misinformation to make sure we wouldn’t move off oil, even if there are a million reasons beyond just global warming why it would be a great idea. We’ve known since the 70s that this would be an issue, and governments around the world have just all been ignoring the issue for half a century.
Yeah, at first it was the “glorified golf cart” angle, but when Tesla proved that wasn’t true, it turned into “they’re too expensive”, “ackthually they pollute more”, “rare earths”, etc… There will always be something.
They think Gas is too expensive because of the red take and lack of drilling on federal lands (lack of new permits at least) I don’t care much about EVS either. I mean, they just take pollution from one place to another and they are better on the environment, but you have drive it for a few years for them to be better on the environment. They are not going to solve climate change.
Public Transit is severely lacking, we need more trains and bicycle paths. Buses, yeah sure, why not. They are going to be diesel busses because Electronic busses don’t make that much sense either.
While yes they do move from one to another. Are you aware how stupidly inefficient car engines are and the amount of fuel used to transport the petrol/diesel to each and every gas station?
That saving of gas on each stage of removing those third party for cars.
I know gas powered engines have been for a long time, but do you think there’s anything we can do to make it more efficient?
Not burning the gas up rapidly in monster trucks would be the best improvement we could do with gas vehicles. Massive square behemoths with 8-liter engines are not helping.
Lighter cars with smaller engines and turbochargers, designed for sleek aerodynamic wind flow are what we can do to make gas engine vehicles more efficient.
Yeah I’m gonna be anti drilling in public lands and national parks on pretty much every front there.
And let’s remember that just even though a solution isn’t perfect, it doesn’t mean it’s a bad solution. EVs are not perfect. But they’re better than continuing to burn fossil fuels. Then if something still better comes along we can upgrade again. Gas powered cars were not the first form of transit and EVs won’t be the last form.
That saving of gas on each stage of removing those third party for cars.
I don’t pretend to know all the answers, but don’t you think scalability is a problem? I mean, for the EVS. I love EVS alright, but I don’t think they are as scalable as we think they are. (Talking about mining minerals electricity and other stuff necessary for EVS here)
EVs ARE a fad I think, hybrids are pretty cool as far as cars go. And that’s not too far, because personal cars are terrible in general and should be outlawed, but that’s besides the point. Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you just said.
EVs are kind of a fad (although they are cool though)
But, you lost me at personal cars should be outlawed. I think that would be disastrous for old folk and the economy
While you are right that EVs just move pollution from one place to another, that other place doesn’t have to be a traditional power plant. If we are able to transfer to green energy, like wind, solar, or nuclear, those cars suddenly become a lot better for the environment.
As for drilling public lands, I strongly disagree. If we can build more green energy sources instead, we will become less reliant on oil and the prices might drop with lower demand. Drilling public land is a great way to ruin the area for years.
If we are able to transfer to green energy, like wind, solar, or nuclear, those cars suddenly become a lot better for the environment
Most of the countries we get minerals from aren’t really stable, so I question how much investment in Green Energy we can actually do there knowing that ROI is not really guaranteed.
Sodium Ion batteries are entering the market now that solve all our problems with sourcing those battery minerals. Lithium batteries will only be needed for the small things like phones within a few years.
Sodium Ion batteries are entering the market now that solve all our problems with sourcing those battery minerals. Lithium batteries will only be needed for the small things like phones within a few years.
cool! that’s some positive news! thanks
Is Elon Musk good or bad in their eyes then?
yes
Most seem to conveniently overlook that he has a company that produces EVs.
Not defending them, but if I can’t afford a tank of gas I likely can’t afford a whole new car. Hell I can afford a tank of gas and I still can’t afford a new car.
For a while, with state and federal rebates, new EVs were ridiculously cheap but a lot of people didn’t realize it. My brother leased a Nissan Leaf for my niece for $100 a month. I realize leasing isn’t for everyone, but $100 a month for a car for a teenager is pretty damn reasonable until she can afford to buy something for herself.
Yep, same here in Germany. I bought during that first wave and I’m planning to wait out the current market situation while driving my slightly aging but extremely affordable EVs. Also with everybody whining about electricity pricing I’m just charging them from the panels on my roof. I guess, I just had a few lucky market timings.
They’re insanely cheap RIGHT NOW. lol
You can get a used 2018-2020 Tesla (or any other brand) for $25k and then $4k back through a tax credit.
Tesla is the worst electric car because it supports Elon Musk
A used tesla doesnt
The stink is hard to wash out.
Most teslas i see are still 30-40k and there really aren’t any other brands besides compliance cars at that age.
Really I thought these were all expired… But if not we may end up going for it this year
But then you’d have to buy a Tesla.
That’s not cheap to me, that’s a normal price for a new car. My current car cost thousands less than that and is still great.
Sure, but normal new car prices are ridiculous right now.
Apparently the average is 48K! https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/average-price-of-a-new-car/
Yikes, a new subcompact is 23K on average.
insanely cheap
I think this comment is “insanely” braindead
Dude 25k is an insane amount of money for a car and is simply not an option for most people also then you would have to be driving not only a Tesla but a Tesla with an old ass battery
Median new car price is $46k, so $21k after tax credit for a used car is very doable for many.
I don’t know where your from but I don’t know many people buying a new car
There are 17 million new cars sold in the US every year. Somebody is buying them.
Yeah not a lot of second hand ev’s out there to buy.
Lots of them on Autotrader when I looked a week ago.
The problem is, they still want $40k for a used EV.
Damn did not know that, still expensive for sure.
And then you need to consider how much battery capacity is left, pretty sure that’s a really big cost to replace?
Unless you are buying one with over 200k miles (still likely 90% there), capacity is out something you have to worry too much about.
What’s awesome about this is when you drive a hybrid. All your power comes from gas or regenerative braking, but it’s so efficient that it’s still painful to the average Republican
There’s no ‘or’, really. That kinetic energy you’re capturing with regen braking, you got that by burning gas. All your energy comes from burning gas.
Unless it has a plug, it’s a gas car.
And if it’s a plugin hybrid, it’s the worst of both worlds.
They really aren’t. I have a couple friends with them and they can go months without buying gas.
Gas is too expensive!
EVs are not ready for the broad market. Sure, they work fine for getting to work and running some errands, but I wouldn’t trust going on long road trips with them yet. Plus, changing the batteries when they wear out is wayyyyy too expensive, might as well buy a new vehicle at that point.
Have any sources to back up your claims?
According to KBB, the average American drives around 37 miles per day. That means that the overwhelming amount of driving could be accomplished by a plug-in hybrid, let alone a fully electric vehicle. When it comes to the occasional long road trip (what, once a year or less for the average person?), is it worth burning - and paying for - gas for the thousands of miles that could be easily covered by even the most pathetic of electric vehicles’ range without issue just so you can save a bit of time pumping fuel and hitting the convenience store rather than stopping a bit longer to charge up? In those cases, it may even be cheaper to rent a gas vehicle for the occasional road trip if if is that big of a concern for you.
Your use case may be different than mine, but I can’t think of too many trips where I couldn’t stop for a half hour here and there to charge up a bit. Most people, especially people with kids, have to stop periodically anyway, so use that time to charge up and you won’t even notice. It’s true that, especially in the particularly sparsely-populated western United States (speaking from a US perspective), some route planning may still be required, but that will get better as more people buy EVs.
Why are battery swaps even entering the conversation? Are engine swaps a concern for most people purchasing a new car? According to J. D. Power, every EV in the US comes with at least an 8 year or 100k mile warranty on the battery. Some manufacturers, like Hyundai, have a lifetime warranty on the battery. Most batteries are expected to last somewhere between 100k - 200k miles, which is often longer than the rest of the car will hold up and certainly competitive with combustion vehicles.
If you want a serious argument detailing a real struggle with which EV manufacturers and the market/government must contend, then here you go: apartment dwellers. From a US perspective, you pretty much have to own your home or work somewhere that provides charging parking spots to be able to fully take advantage of the benefits of an EV. While using a public charger is a viable option, it is more expensive than charging at home (though, in my research, it is still cheaper than gas).
EVs make sense for a super-majority of the driving that takes place today by normal people in North America. If you don’t own your home, want to tow a boat, or travel hundreds of miles a day on a regular basis, then EVs will serve your needs somewhere between “fairly well” to “not at all”.
If “range anxiety” is the only thing keeping people from pulling the trigger on an EV, I strongly suggest they consider the possibility of renting a car for the rare cross-country trip if finding a DC fast charger every once and a while and spending a little extra time at each stop isn’t a viable option for them.
Most EVs hold a charge for over 400 miles, that’s the same as a tank of gas now. For the vast, vast majority of Americans that will do for most of their driving habits. Most Americans commute to work and run errands around their house, even on busy days most Americans won’t come close to 200 miles in a single day. Charging every night at home then makes it very reasonable.
For myself, we’re a 2 car house, one EV and one gas, and gas is only used now for those (very rare) long journeys. Even those though are so rare that honestly renting a car is a valid alternative (while we’re building the charging infrastructure).
The only real excuses right now are if you
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regularly drive over 400 miles in one trip, so for most people that’s across their entire state, and plan on not being able to charge at all in the middle (which, if you’re on the interstates now is pretty much a non-issue, and remember you can always rent a car if you’re going on a super long road trip too if you’re really worried about it. Even in the Midwest that was maybe once or twice a year that I went on road trips long)
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Rent or live where you can’t install an EV charger in your home. This is a valid one, and I hope we start pushing for chargers in rental properties.
I’m a proponent of EVs and I’m looking forward to getting one at some point but “most” EVs don’t hold a charge for over 400 miles. Many are offered with a high range option that almost meets this mark, but that’s also under ideal conditions. I have several coworkers with EVs and we talk a lot about the range effects in the winter, or in hilly areas, etc.
Also you’d have to be crazy to plan out a trip that depletes your battery all the way, so that wouldn’t be for a 400 mile trip.
One thing that’s turning me off from EVs (currently) is the constant battling over charging standards. This creates more uncertainty than I’d like.
Not only are the points you made on EV good, but you can also fill up an EV at home. You never have to leave the house in the morning without a full tank ever again.
You can’t fill up an EV at home if you rent, most of the time. Higher wattage charging requires a charger installation.
I don’t think they realize this. If you have a garage with a charge port (which can be added fairly cheaply now) then you never have to worry about getting gas before work again. You just always leave with a “full tank”
And if you have solar panels and a smart charger, you can do it with just the excess power you’d be sending to the grid otherwise. Under the right circumstances you could just drive for free.
Ha, we posted around the same time and said basically the same thing. Nice!
I’m just tired of the “what about this niche thing I did one time” argument. Like I said in the other comment, unless you tow like, once a week or even once a month then fine, maybe you need a truck, but even then Ford claims the lightening can tow for a good chunk of miles and so can the rivians.
Most people if they really analyzed their driving would find that they usually just drive around town, which is the perfect use case for EVs, and most other cases could be solved by renting a vehicle for a couple of days a year. Surprisingly enough, we do not need to drive massive trucks around every day when we’re just going into the office.
But if you do want that sort of status symbol, like I said the lightening and rivians are there.
And if you have this use case, why wouldn’t you want everyone that commutes 50km/day or whatever in their Camry to use an electric car instead? That just means cheaper petrol for you, and less of a line at the petrol station to boot. Imagine how cheap it would be if we could go back to only needing to use the oil that basically bubbles up from the desert floor by itself instead of spending millions sifting oil out of tar sands up in Canada.
Could not agree more!
That said, I did call out one legit problem with widespread EV adoption in apartment dwellers. I really hope something is done soon, either governmentally or through the market, to make EVs a more viable option for renters.
Towing and cold weather also play an important factor in the range as well.
I’ll agree to add towing, but again unless you’re a professional truck driver that’s a very rare instance, and I’d point to my 2-car household thing as a solution. (Call me crazy but for those rare times I need a truck I rent one. The only times I toe are when I’m helping friends move and the only time I’ve needed a truck is bringing something big home from home Depot, and for both U-Haul has charged me max $20 bucks for the day)
For 99% of driving an EV is fine. The cold misnomer was true in the early days of EVs, but is pretty much solved now, but even then the 2-car household solves that again.
For the other 1% of driving you can easily rent a vehicle that suits your needs. After all, we don’t all own moving vans just because we move occasionally.
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It takes me 28 hours to drive from South Florida to New Hampshire in my EV instead of 24 like Google says. That would probably be 25 hours with gas stops though. And it’s actually kind of nice to get out and walk around while it’s charging, especially since I bring my dog. Maybe other routes are worse for charging? I haven’t had any issues.
The first world lifestyle/“American Dream” of everyone owning a car and living in a nice house is unsustainable in the first world itself, nevermind a world of 8 billion people. EVs or no EVs. If we want to actually start tackling global warming, these people need to get used to the idea of public transit.
I agree with you, and I take public transit whenever possible, but I’m willing to compromise on them getting an EV if they at least stop driving big stupid trucks to get groceries from the supermarket
Yeah the big trucks suck and are pointless. Here in South Africa they keep making the Ford Ranger and Toyota Hilux bakkies bigger and bigger to try copy American trucks. Honestly only a matter of time before a Ford F-150 or Toyota Tundra model is available at a car dealership in South Africa. Also EVs won’t get popular here until rolling electricity blackouts are solved, and since they’ve been an issue for 15 years now, it’s not looking good.
EVs are for poor people? You mean these expensive cars that I couldn’t even charge at home because I would need a house to do so?
EVs are rapidly getting cheaper. We do still need better charging infrastructure though
I’d suggest you read it again. Might just clear some things up for you
Most states (the ones not pretending they can stop the sales of EVs with bans) have had infrastructure plans in motion for years already. It’s coming.
Ah yeah. Still a dumb argument as EVs can be pretty quick.
The meme doesn’t say anything about their speed though…?
Are we looking at the same post?
Yes
It’s possible to have both opinions.
The solution is cheap gas. Covers all points, unfortunately we don’t live in a world where the oil conglomerates care about you, so we get the expensive gas.
There’s also CO2 emissions, climate change, smog, the fact that it’s a depleting resource…
If you’re “solution” is for big government to come in and use our tax dollars to artificially reduce the price of the fuel that is already obsolete and actively destroying our planet, then I don’t think it’s a great solution.
A better solution is to work on getting off of the obsolete fuel source and work towards better ones. EVs do exactly that. Embrace new ideas, don’t cling to outdated ones.
Oh, that’s not my solution.
I’m just saying that there is a solution that would be satisfactory to those who think this way. I have an 11 year old ICE car that’s remarkably fuel efficient. The average cost of gas has driven my usual fill up about $20. I used to be able to fill up for a bit over $40, now I’m paying a bit shy of $60 for the same thing. I’m largely unaffected. I suspect the loudest people complaining about gas prices drive F150 and larger engined vehicles… Where a 50% uptick in cost, is more like $70. They don’t go any farther on a tank than my little 1.5L 4cyl can, they just pay more because TRUCK.
See, I get down voted frequently because I approach issues from a neutral perspective, and I can see the arguments on both sides and make very neutrally biased comments… Then people brigade in thinking I’m making a statement, which I didn’t and never meant to imply, and my vote count goes straight to hell for it.
I’m literally only pointing out that there is a solution that satisfies all parties. Which isn’t to say, nor imply that either I think that should happen, or will happen, or even if I think it’s a good idea to pursue. Yet, everyone likes to draw conclusions on what I think for simply pointing out that there are facts to the matter.
For the record, I’m very much in favor of EVs. I’m not convinced that Tesla’s way of doing things is the right way, but I have to give them credit for basically proving the naysayers wrong, and making EVs viable above all questioning. Both for consumer transportation and now they’re going after trucks and they inspired Ford to put out the F-150 lighting. That’s progress. There’s bigger fish to fry than consumer vehicles, even just talking about the transportation sector, but I’ll refrain from commenting further on it since it is not material to the point. What is material to the point is that EVs are a good step in the right direction.
The oil industry has tried to kill EVs for a long time, and they were successful for a long time until Tesla shook things up. The oil companies had no real way to fight against Tesla making EVs… Now that electric vehicles have proven themselves, there’s no looking back. EVs will be the way forward. Battery tech might change, and the way we charge them may change, hell, even how we store energy for use may be completely different (like with fuel cell EVs)… Who knows? But cars driven by electric motors will not be going away. Anyone in opposition needs to either get on board or get out of the way, because they’re on the wrong side of history.
There were people that opposed “horseless carriages” back in the day too… We all know how that worked out.
Got my 🅱️ig 🅱️rained takes here:
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In many use cases, EVs are worse for the environment
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Even in these cases, it might be better for the society in that pollution is no longer concentrated in towns and around roads but at power plants where mitigations can be centrally handled by solutions that can be made to scale
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In many cases, EVs are far inferior. In many cases, ICEs are far inferior.
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I wish I could afford an EV plox send monies
Absolute nonsense. EVs are better for emissions than ICE engines. And a cheaper over the life of the car.
From the Union of Concerned Scientists:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/electric-vehicles-are-cleaner
I made allowances for that in what I said my man 😎
I think the poster above you is trying to say that the materials and operations involved in EV production are even worse than that of the ICE vehicles combined with the their post-manufacture emissions. As far as I understand, a completely electronic vehicle (not a hybrid) would produce no emissions of its own, compared to one with an internal combustion engine.
But I understand equally little abort both.
EV is do produce fine particles from brakes and mainly tires, but no combustion involved emissions. But it’s still a great win, especially for the air quality in cities and with that, the total health impact for the population they cause.
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That’s Facebook for you. People love to complain about things that take them out of what they have gotten used to but the moment someone offers a possible solution they dig their heels in the sand.
They’re essentially just shouting out and seeing how many people will absentmindedly agree and reaffirm their view point
Oh it’s a standard social media echo chamber, and I’m well aware that we’re in one here too. But at least here we aren’t saying that the gas prices are a conspiracy done by the dEMoCrAtS!! Of course to them the only solution is to… have big government regulate gas prices, god forbid they think about alternatives
I agree Facebook just specifically annoys me because it’s a lot of dumb posts put out without forethought.
Facebook is the worst social media site of all where boomers and racist people shouting at each other. The best one can do is to delete themselves.
long press, select all, copy/pasta
