I dropped her off this morning and saw girls (and boys) wearing grass skirts, some of them with coconut bras too. I’m not sure what else is going on, but it doesn’t seem very respectful of a native culture that we have seriously fucked over. Would they have a “Native American Day” and let kids come in wearing feathered headdresses?
Or am I reading too much into it?
It’s Indiana, it’s not a problem because of corn and God
That moment when the teachers forget the Hawaiians have gods too.
You should ask some Hawaiian.
It usually heavily depends on the context. Children having fun themed dressed as Hawaiian looks pretty nice, they are kid playing.
I am italian. Super Mario is not offensive, an Italian-themed college party where everyone dress and speak as mobster saying “capisc” is very offensive.
Context matters. Here doesn’t look like the kids are offending anyone. But I am not Hawaiin, you should ask them
I’m hoping someone who is Hawaiian will say something here because I don’t know any Hawaiians myself.
EDIT: Also, I think it’s a little different when it comes to Italian vs. Hawaiian, because Hawaiians are an oppressed people who faced a genocide. Italians got treated like shit in the U.S., but compared to Hawaiians, it’s not really the same.
Pro-tip: it’s never a good idea to compare the suffering of peoples.
I can see why you might not want to compare the suffering of individuals, but what’s the problem with comparing the suffering of groups of people?
Because one was the victim of a genocide and the other wasn’t?
Who suffered worse: the native Americans during the trail of tears or those who suffered the holocaust?
Holocaust
Because it will marginalize the suffering of one of them.
Why the hell would that be offensive?
Like I said, for the same reason wearing a feathered headdress on Native American day would be offensive.
Good question, I don’t know why you are getting downvoted
Yeah, I don’t get it. I’m not saying it is offensive. If it isn’t, just tell me why. Because it seems like it is but I don’t know.
Just make sure this is a teaching moment for your daughter. There’s nothing wrong with diving into other peoples’ cultures, but you may as well find out where all the apparel comes from traditionally, so you can help make her costume accurate and even add something the other kids probably don’t have, and make sure you don’t offend anyone in the process by drawing false parallels:)
She didn’t wear a costume, so that’s not an issue. She’s actually already aware of what happened in Hawaii because we’ve talked about it before.
When you fly to Hawaii, they offer you a lei even if you’re not Hawaiian.
Yeah, but grass skirts are more of a ceremonial thing, aren’t they? Again, I’m honestly asking. I thought they were more of an important thing to Hawaiians culturally.
Surely there’s a difference between a person of a different culture inviting you to engage in that culture and people unilaterally deciding to use thing from another person’s culture, right? The key is consent.
There are white kids who grow up in impoverished and majority-black areas who, through association with their friends, become allowed to say the ‘n’ word within their social circle. They’ve been invited by members of that culture to engage in such a way, so it’s no longer offensive. If that same guy were to go to another neighbourhood with people he didn’t know and used the ‘n’ word, it would become extremely offensive again. The key is consent from the people of the culture you’re engaging with.
Not when I flew there last year.
I remember getting one somewhere. I’ve been to two airports there, maybe it was only at one of them. It was also 7 years ago, so the tradition may have stopped.
Who is “they”? Just because the state tourism bureau does it, doesn’t mean it necessarily represents the will or wishes of indigenous Hawaiians.
Maybe we should blame Hawaii instead of the school that OPs daughter attends.
The simple solution is to rename it “Racist Hawaiian Tourist Day”. Then everyone’s happy, right?
Indigenous Hawaiians are any of you on the fediverse?!?
Some indigenous Hawaiians would find it offensive and some wouldn’t. Hawaiians are not some homogeneous entity sharing the same thoughts and sensibilities. That being said, it sounds like the event centres around cultural stereotypes, which are romanticized from a western point of view, from a specific point in time, and in that sense I would find it in poor taste, but I am not Hawaiian. In my opinion, these sorts of things marginalize cultures more than they “celebrate” them. I would encourage you to try to educate your daughter on the history of colonialism in Hawaii, as that won’t be covered in class in any detail, I’d wager.
I have talked to her about colonialism a lot, including Hawaii. The things Americans don’t teach about their own history in schools is appalling, let along world history.
tbf, there’s comparatively little time and the structure of classes means that oftentimes year-to-year you end up going over the same info - and still having kids who just don’t retain the info.
Structure is one of the hardest things to change in an institution, unfortunately. Details, like what is taught or what is used to teach it, are almost easy in comparison.
Or am I reading too much into it?
Yes? I’m not American, so to me it seems like you guys tend to do that a lot.
“Oh no, this word was once used in a derogatory fashion, can’t use that! Better start using some new euphemistic wor- oh shit, the new word is already also being used derogatorily, better start using some new euphemis- oh crap, that was fast, better just call it - oh, gawrsh…”
I mean, I’m not claiming it’s a US specific thing. But you’re damn good at it.
Yeah, but these are people who the U.S. committed genocide against, so there’s some real cultural sensitivity here that’s kind of big. Especially since we’ve never apologized for it. Imagine if Germans had never taken culpability for the Holocaust and then had a Jewish day at schools where kids wore yarmulkes. That would seem pretty offensive to me. And that’s kind of what’s happening here.
Especially since we’ve never apologized for it.
We have, though. Not that an apology makes it all better - obviously the only sincere and just thing to do would be to engage in meaningful conversations and considerable investment of resources in order to assist the position of Native Americans still suffering from sins first set in motion generations ago, rather than some nice-sounding words from the Senate - but acknowledgement of the mistreatment of Native Americans is something that has happened and knowledge of which is much more prominent in the cultural zeitgeist anymore.
Hawaiians are not really considered Native Americans. They’re Polynesian. So no, their genocide has not been apologized for.
Native Hawaiians have been included, legally, in the category of Native Americans since the 70s, and the resolution the Senate passed addressed ‘Native Peoples’ who had been fucked over by the Federal government specifically and by Americans in general. Like I said, an apology is next to nothing - but an apology was made.
You keep comparing it to other things like blackface and the Holocaust. You should at least recognize the difference between things and stop grouping them all in the same basket.
I mean, they’re all in the same basket of gestures that lack respect towards members of a marginalized and oppressed group. Numerous Native American tribes suffered from genocidal policies or a lack of protection from genocidal settlers from the Federal government. Dressing up in a manner intended to be stereotypical and ‘amusing’ is the same essential degrading concept as blackface. There’s nothing wrong with examining any incidents that may be culturally insensitive with a particularly critical eye, with that in mind.
Again, I ask you, what do you think gives you the right to decide?
Well… What gives you the ‘RIGHT’ to tell them they don’t have a ‘right’ to an opinion on the issue?? That’s a very disingenuous comment made with a lot of immaturity, to just shut down a point you don’t agree with…
no one gives you, or I, or anyone, a ’ RIGHT’ to opinionate on anything, really… it’s just Human nature to have an opinion on things we know about, have experience with, educated ourselves on, or have seen first hand… to say they do t have a ’ right’ to engage because you feel they are irrelevant, is selfish and dangerous rhetoric…
You really don’t have the ‘Privilege’ to deny anyone the reality of engaging in conversation and to share their opinions… and regardless of where they live, how they live and what they do, you also do not have the personal 'privilege, to know every thing that this stranger knows, or has seen, or has experienced, to make the opinion…
It’s a very nuanced issue and to shut someone down because you don’t think they have a ‘right’ to state their opinions, or engage with conversations. Do you also passionately advocate for America’s 1st amendment ‘rights’? You’re on a post about an American issue, and asking someone who is not American what ‘right’ they have to engage, so I have to assume you are American and do support the constitution… but just because you or I, are American, that does not mean non Americans can’t comment or opinionate on issues we have… the ‘right’ to engage should not be conflated with real ‘rights’ and used as a weapon to silence someone you disagree with…
Well now I’m saying you can’t be offended by what I said. You have to agree with me, because freedom of speech or whatever.
And again… you are not making sense nor are you being mature to a nuanced conversation. It would be a waste of time to continue to speak with you in good faith, if you’re just gonna do the kindergarten equivalent of " I am Rubber, you’re glue" .
Please grow up and learn how to have nuance… I know it’s tough to be mature and hear opinions you may not like, but part of growing up is having a factual conversation without emotions, in order to have an educated conversation with sustenance…
Nothing riles up Americans more than being told “no”. I owe you nothing. I was simply pointing out that a member of a country/culture that violently subjugated another country/culture doesn’t morally or ethically get to decide that what they do or say is or isn’t offensive to the country/culture that they violently subjugated.
Cultural appropriation of a culture that suffered genocide seems the same to me across cultures that experienced the same thing. What’s the difference?
That’s a tricky argument to make, because some people (like you) mean it sincerely, but others just use the same argument as an excuse to be an ignorant, lazy, insensitive prick.
That’s very subtle. Well done.
Huh?
It’s insane watching American race politics from the outside. The fact that OP even asked the question implies a deep level of crazy I find hard to understand.
You’re thinking way too much into it. We should be celebrating each other’s cultures, not racially gating them. It’s not offensive or racist when non-whites/Germans wear lederhosen at Oktoberfest. It’s not racist when black people drink wine. Humans have shared cultures, food, and clothing for millennia. It’s a good thing.
But this isn’t celebrating Hawaiian culture because coconut bras and grass skirts are not Hawaiian culture, lol
Then how could this possibly be interpreted as disrespectful of Hawaiian culture?
Are you asking how engaging in stereotype is disrespectful?
If it has nothing to do with Hawaiian culture then it’s not a stereotype. Were you mistaken about it not being associated with Hawaiian culture?
What do you think a stereotype is…?
A widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.
For example, coconut bras and grass skirts?
I would agree in general, except that with many, particularly older cultural perceptions of non-European peoples, there’s a great deal of fetishization (meaning primarily in the non-sexual sense) and belittlement inherent in the depictions, so one must be careful with such things.
I feel “protecting” them by walking on eggshells around things related to their culture is just a continuation of that fetishization(sp?) when we should all just be sharing and celebrating one another’s culture. Obviously don’t mock, but anything that is good natured as this event seems to be is exactly what humans should be doing
I agree that we should share and celebrate each other’s cultures, and I’m generally opposed to the idea of ‘cultural appropriation’ being a bad thing. However, in taking aspects of another culture, one must be aware (or at least, one’s society must be concerned when spreading the style) of the deeper implications that may come with it.
Wearing the everyday/dress (or traditionally everyday/dress) clothes of another culture in a way that’s just meant to be, well, fashion? Fuck anyone who says that’s wrong. Wearing the ceremonial articles of another culture in a way that’s meant to be fashion? Somewhat dicey, somewhat concerning, though I would argue that it doesn’t inherently have to be bad - but one must definitely understand the context of it. Wearing the national dress of a culture in a way that’s meant to be amusing or humorous? Eggshells are warranted.
If there is significant inequality, it can very much come across as dismissive or punching down, which is pretty unambiguously bad. Else, it’s generally accepted as ribbing without deeper meaning, lacking any deeper context. As an American, I generally don’t get upset when someone makes stereotypical American jokes, or putting on a cowboy hat and exaggerated affectation, because I know it’s just ribbing. Whereas, as an individual with mental disorders, I can be sensitive about neurotypical folk making mental illness jokes or ‘pretending’ to be mentally ill as a joke - because I’m not sure that it’s not coming from a place of genuine ignorance or malice (or worse - I’m sure that it is), due to the cultural power imbalance between the neurodiverse and the neurotypical being still quite… lopsided.
Were it the other way around - if neurodiverse folk were accepted and Americans were not - I imagine my reactions would likewise be reversed. So too with ethnic groups who are discriminated against by modern society - caution is warranted, and sensitivity to such things is not an incorrect reaction on their part.
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It wasn’t one teacher, it was a school-wide thing. Like hat day or school spirit day. And there’s no cultural awareness going on, I guarantee it. Like you said, good luck.
“Offensive” wouldn’t be my biggest worry. I’m surprised the teachers aren’t being accused of indecency here. Here’s hoping they have good intentions.
If that were me going to school, I’d probably be spreading around awareness of the Hawaiian gods (good luck Indiana) while sipping some Hawaiian punch in the classroom and talking about how Hawaiians didn’t have schools the way we have them.
Indecency? I doubt they’re wearing coconut bras without a t-shirt underneath.
Preferably yeah, a shirt would be ideal, but then how would anyone know they’re wearing coconut bras?
Edit: Oh you said underneath
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a Hawaiian day in the abstract - schools often do dumb little celebrations like that. In context, though, coconut bras? Y I K E S.
My schools, when I was a wee lad in the 2000s, did a lot of ‘theme’ days like that about different cultures, and while it was generally very surface-level information, it also was generally accurate and not whitewashing. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with encouraging student participation in learning like that, even if it might be a bit cringey and superficial.
We had spirit week growing up which was a different theme every day leading up to homecoming. Entirely voluntary participation and students came up with their own costumes so the coconut bras to me are something those students came up with, though as a parent I’d make sure it’s was only decoration and a proper bra was still worn underneath the shirt.
I would think coconut bras would be inappropriate because they’re school-age children and because coconut bras are not actually a thing. They’re tourist fetishization of Hawaii.
Apologies, but this is just a heads up. The OP was meant to be civil to my understanding, and at a certain point, as Lemmy mods, we’re asked to lock a thread if it gets out of hand. Could everyone tone themselves down a little so this doesn’t have to happen?
Also, that moment when it dawns on me I’ve been wearing a Hawaiian shirt all day.
