Not sure why this got removed from 196lemmy…blahaj.zone but it would be real nice if moderation on Lemmy gave you some sort of notification of what you did wrong. Like an automatic DM or something
All of those things are group consensus though. As in there are plenty of examples when group consensus was the other way and those things (slavery, not allowing women to participate in democracy, extreme inequality) were accepted and practiced freely
But did you follow the rule?
The only way you can be sure that there is one 'true morality is, “If you don’t want it done to you then don’t do it to others.”
if I kill someone’s loved one for some reason maybe for me it is not morally wrong because that person “deserved it” but if they kill someone dear to me can I consider it morally acceptable? definitely not
“Subjective morality” is just what people tell themselves so they don’t have to do any actual introspection
Some cultural things may be subjective - take looking someone in the eye when conversing, for example. Some cultures find it disrespectful to do so, while others find it disrespectful not to do so.
But the big things? Actual morality? There is absolutely an objective right and wrong.
you’ve lost the earth under the terminology. you’re upset with some truly awful shit in existence, and seem uncomfortable with calling it anything that might minimize the horror of it. “objectively bad”.
what if I told you that it can still be awful without being absolute? judgment requires a subject. passing judgment, that is seeing beauty. being subjective is one of the delights of human experience.
the only thing objective is that harming the subject is the ultimate violence. silencing the subject so that nothing can be called good or bad.
the rest is all up for debate.
There is absolutely an objective right and wrong.
Could you point me to how I can meassure or otherwise empirically confirm these objective rights and wrongs?
Well, that’s the tricky part. There isn’t much in the way of empirical measurements for morality, which is why it tends to be so varied. But truth being difficult to find doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There is still right and wrong.
As another user here put it, “Moral judgement is subjective. Moral truth is not.”
I don’t see the tricky part. If it can’t be empirically measured, it’s not objective.
So to put it correctly:
“Moral judgement is subjective. Moral truth is too.”
Truth isn’t subjective.
But “moral truth” is.
Two contradicting things cannot both be true. That’s literally just not how shit works.
What two contradicting statements?
Just because you cannot empirically measure something (at least at the moment), doesn’t mean it can’t be true.
Take consciousness, for example. We all know we have it. But we cannot empirically prove it. Does that mean consciousness doesn’t exist? No, not at all.
Just because you cannot empirically measure something (at least at the moment), doesn’t mean it can’t be true.
I agree. However this is a very bad basis to start from if you want to find an actual truth. There is millions of ideas that were dreamed up by people that can’t be empirically denied or confirmed, including all the gods.
Take consciousness, for example
I think that is a great example. Because if we understood consciousness, we’d probably also understand how we come up with ideas, like morality.
That’s really the bigger point. Morality is an idea. It’s like countries. We divide up the planet into sections on a map we made up and agree that those now exist. Then we build stuff along the border to make it exist. But there is no “true” or “correct” way to divide the planet into countries and nations. It’s just a process that happens as an emergent property of a civilisation.
Just like consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. So ultimatly if you find out anything about how morality comes to exist, studying the brain is a good start.
But I doubt we’ll ever find any objective moral truths, because we made up the entire concept.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivity_and_objectivity_(philosophy)
Well, let’s look at geopolitics. The War in Ukraine. Putin says that the War is important to get rid of Nazis in Ukraine. A lot of ppl in Russia believe him.
I know for myself I don’t believe it.
Let’s walk through your definition: it’s a big thing I think. So either me or they are objectively right. Well depending on if you define this as “actual morality”. That concludes in your definition this can be objectively determined.
Well let’s walk through Wikipedia’s philosophical definition.
Can my opinion be formed independent of mind? That is, without bias, perception, emotions, opinion, imagination or conscious experience? Well I have biases against against Putin because I try to be neutral, but there’s a lot of news articles highlighting bad politics from him. I have a certain perception about starting wars on an argumentation without good evidence. My emotions tell me that ppl dying is bad. My opinions tell me that there is no justification for a war if it clearly isn’t a very limited defense against an attack. I do have an imagination of what the war looks like and what the consequences will be. And last but not least, ppl talking about how their relatives died or my father talking about his time in the army has left a conscious experience on me in that regard.
As you can see there’s a lot going on that wants me to make this “objectively true” for me, but I really can’t split all of these influences from my opinion, therefore this is not objectively determined via Wikipedia’s definition.
Now I submit to you that you can’t find anyone who doesn’t have these biases to make the statement that the war is either right or wrong under that definition while being objective, per definition.
Which brings me to the conclusion that on this topic, your definition of it and Wikipedia’s definition on it fundamentally differ and bring me to opposite conclusions. This means either your definition is the one we should follow, or Wikipedia’s, and I have to say I’m gonna make my choice.
Btw this is in no way a dig at the idea that I wish there was some things that everyone knows are wrong, but I just think ppl are ppl and it doesn’t work for most things.
Sam Harris - The Moral Landscape. Didn’t actually read it but it’s about this exact topic and I kinda agree with him
I know this is one of those Watch this 35 minute long video, but it realy is a good video 😅 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI&pp=ygUPY3VjayBwaGlsb3NvcGh5
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I don’t see the contradiction here. Person on the right is just asking what the person’s beliefs on those matters are, not whether they believe those beliefs are objective or subjective.
Shit meme, so apt for the community, I guess. Patrick represents a guy stating his own morality, which doesn’t oppose the final sentence, meaning this meme doesn’t follow the expected format nor does it have a point whatsoever.
Patrick’s last sentence is still consistent with everything that he said above. He expressed HIS opinion and HIS morals above.
No ethical framework can be truly objective. This is because there is no universal constant that backs any ethical framework. We need universal constants to verify an objective statement. For example, the speed of light is the same in all frames of reference. Also it is measureable. How do you measure the permissibility of an action? We do not know.
In conclusion, Patrick was right when he implied that there was no objectivity in ethics.
I’m seeing this point about moral epistemology a lot in this thread. Of course, philosophers have constructed convincing arguments in favor of different theories (classic ones being virtue ethics, deontology, consequentialism). If you were to take a look at those arguments you might be persuaded to one camp or another.
Also, I find this objection makes more sense for the moral skeptic than the moral relativist. If we really can’t know the moral value of an action, then why settle for saying its based on what humans think? Why not just go all out and say either 1) there is no such thing as moral value or 2) there is moral value but we have no way of knowing what it is.
If we really can’t know the moral value of an action, then why settle for saying its based on what humans think
I never said that we can’t know the moral value of an action. All that I’m saying is that the moral value of an action is dependent on the entity giving the value. Morals cannot exist without beings capable of having morals.
Why not just go all out and say either 1) there is no such thing as moral value or 2) there is moral value but we have no way of knowing what it is.
Because saying either of these two statements would not reflect reality. There IS a thing such as moral value. It’s just not constant for all beings capable of having morals. For the second option, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that there is indeed a universal moral constant. Hence, “knowing” that value goes out of the window.
I believe in Objective Morality
If you are harming someone else without proper cause. You are doing evil.
People in this thread are so downvote heavy lmao.
Okay, but can you prove objectively that doing so is a “bad” thing? What even is the definition of “bad” in this context?
Quite simple, if you harm someone who is not harming someone else, then you have done bad. It’s that easy
Fuck it, the right doesn’t follow rule or law. If I was her I’d laugh in their face and say “no”.
Moral judgements are relative, moral truth is not.
Another philosophy “conundrum” solved by your friendly neighborhood Skelator! See you next time!
If objective morality existed, we wouldn’t be arguing about those things since we would all be in the same agreement.
Even “murder is wrong” isn’t objective morally when you ask someone who believes in the death penalty.
All 3 would receive a negative response in the last 100 years in different parts of the world. Hell there are plenty of places currently where women can’t vote, slavery is a thing and the government isn’t working toward a better society. Those places wouldn’t exist if those people thought it was morally wrong. Objective morality is definitely not a thing.
That’s exactly the point. For example, people used to think chattel slavery in the US was morally acceptable because they viewed black people as inferior. But today we would say that black people are not inferior and that they were mistaken. The moral relativist would say that slavery was okay to do back then because that’s what the people agreed on. Do you still agree with the moral relativist?
I agree that morals are relative considering there are a ton of people who still believe black people are inferior and also places with slavery.
Something can be morally objective if every single person in the world believes it but I can’t think of a single example of that.
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That would be the case if morals were something we can measure outside the human experience. Unfortunately there is no way to measure if something is moral or not outside how someone feels about it.
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Not really, if absolutely every single human at all stages of life believed it’s morally good to spit in their palm every day that would be an objective moral truth, there would be no subjectivity to it. For morals though no such thing exists.
You don’t need to be able to observe it externally to distinguish it. For example i can say I have a conscious experience and that would be objectively true even though we have a pretty minimal understanding on what that really is or how to measure it.
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That doesn’t mean it does not exist though. It simply means we can’t measure it.
I’m not saying that, just that there’s no outside way of verifying if something is true or not in case of morals. I don’t believe objective morals exist because you can’t find a single moral stance shared among all of humanity not because you can’t measure the truth of that stance.
Is suffering good or bad? I don’t mean that in a specific context, but any type of suffering in itself.
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So you think pain is real?
But what if all women voted in favour for slavery?
How is one Patrick agreeing equal to objective truth?
We get it, you want slavery back, therefore viciously beating you to death is morally acceptable because the consensus admits your life has no value.
the logic understander
Honestly it’s more disturbing that you don’t think something can be “bad” unless it’s “objectively bad”. are you a christian?
