I just want to vent a bit - I started seeing someone a few weeks ago. Old fling that I ran into through some friends that got rekindled, and I was excited that it seemed like more than just casual hookups this time. But there were some yellow flags I ignored that turned out to be red flags, and now I’m feeling frustrated and hurt.
Dude for real dropped the line that men are more “capable” and “logical” on me. That gender studies are “indoctrination.” I told him we should probably stop seeing each other if that’s really what he thinks. It wouldn’t be logical for me to keep seeing someone that thinks lesser of me, now, would it?
I’m grateful to have some guy friends that I turned to after I left, cuz I wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode, but I know it’s not true or helpful. Just like there are women out there that have internalized misogyny, there’s feminist men, enbies, etc. We’re all just people and we’re not monoliths beholden to differences in biology. This is just sexist, manosphere bullshit in particular
Anyway. I’m still feeling angry and wanted to put it out there for some support and solidarity. Anyone have a recent win they’d like to share or something?
ETA: Thank you so much for the conversation y’all! I’ve been trying to keep up but I gotta get some sleep. I’ll check in later but hope everyone has a good day. Keep up the empowerment! 💜
It’s so fucking tiring. Youtube is constantly pushing that shit to me for some reason so idk if it’s really so widespread or if the Algo thinks I’d fall for it
I have had a youtube account for a very long time, I mostly use it for music and how to videos. I don’t watch any of the political talking heads or life coaches or influencers. But if I leave autoplay on and don’t create my own playlist, it only takes 3 or 4 videos until it starts suggesting or even inserting these bullshit fucking videos into my list.
I avoid youtube because of it. If I go there to watch something, its because I am looking for that video alone and never spend time watching anything random. I cringe so hard when my nieces and nephew watch it and I can see some of these snakeoil fuckheads in their suggested videos list.
turn off view-history. your suggestions page will just be blank – like god intended.
But there’s interesting shit too :(
I just use newpipe x sponsorblock or libretube. Everything works like an rss feed and things are going great.
There are people and groups paying big money to put those ads in front of as many eyes as possible
If it helps anything, I can imagine men usually assume they are as an individual more logical and capable than other men as well. Projecting this on women is just even easier as other man will agree.
I agree with this thought and it’s precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af) who come up with this idea
Uhhh… I mean, not to defend this asshole, but isn’t this just as sexist a thought?
I think you may be interpreting “men” as all men, but I think the post meant, “precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af)”
That is, the men who say things like this tend to be men that aren’t smart enough or are simply too narcissistic to realize it’s wrong.
I think you’re right! I actually realised this a while after I reread this but I never really bothered to write about the epiphany 😅
Yes! I had noticed he was being a dick to his roommate at one point, who’s our mutual friend. Really caught me off guard. Fucked up product of how men can be socialized in sexist societies. I just feel bad for everyone in that dynamic, even the guys putting others down, cuz they think it’ll help them get their needs met but it just shoots them in the foot. And of course victims don’t deserve that treatment to begin with. We should be lifting each other up, validating that we’re all capable and logical
Fwiw, on social media, if one doesn’t obviously show which gender they are, they will usually be assumed to be a male. There are more women around here than some people think, and they are always adressed as bro, homie, dude, my man, and so on. So, apparently, the differences are not always as obvious as some people assume. Edited a word to correct english
I’ve actually used this before to argue with someone about gender v sex, and it can be fun when I’m not romantically interested lol. Just play into it on anonymous accounts that they can’t know your gender, so why assign it at all if it’s not explicitly stated? The person I argued with eventually admitted they were just scared of making a mistake in social settings, so I encouraged them to practice. It doesn’t take that long to get used to, and it’s exactly how you prevent mistakes!
But then I added in another comment, we’re human and there’s room for error. It’s the people that intentionally misgender that are the assholes
Interesting, and i agree; i never even try to assume gender when talking to people online.
As a side note, apart from logic and rationality, i never noticed women being more emotional than men. Also, from what i’ve seen online, men often are quite talkative and the first to break the ice or share an opinion or experience.
But in the end, i prefer to look at individuals and try not to focus on labels.
For sure. Not to say there aren’t differences between genders, but yeah, I tried pointing out to the guy from my post that we’re all emotional creatures, and ignoring that can have pretty damaging effects. He did try to say women are more emotional along with men being more logical, and of course my reaction was to feel angry at the injustice and explain that. Feels much healthier and logical for me to listen to that emotion and walk away. Now I’m getting all talkative lol. Think that shows women (well, I’m nonbinary AFAB) may talk more when they feel safe, and I appreciate you contributing to that:)
Much healthier indeed; one will never convince people who are not open to other viewpoints anyway, and it would just suck the energy right out of you.
My own username explicitly alludes to my gender and I still get called a man about half the time. I don’t really care or anything, but I think it’s funny
Wait, you are a woman? Just kidding. I noticed that many people, myself often included, often don’t read that carefully, or don’t pay that much attention to the usernames. It wouldn’t be the first time i’m typing a reply, say, to answer a question and only then notice that the person already added something in their text, like: i already tried this, and my reply is useless and i delete the draft.
I also don’t really care that much that people assume my gender, but whether you read carefully or not; why assume everyone here is male. I see a lot of guys commenting that there are not many women on lemmy; well duh, if you assume everyone is male… I always try to reply to people without assuming gender, but apparently, for some people that is hard.
Yeah, I mean you’re absolutely right. There is a male default assumption we tend to have. Maybe it’s a quirk of language, but I think it’s certainly more cultural. Our preconceived notions of “person in internet” is masculine, even though women use the internet just as much and make up half the population. The only time it’s not the case is when you’re in places that are exclusively for women, or in places where the hobby is so dominantly feminine
For simple shit like this, I don’t think it’s particularly harmful or malicious. We invent a person we’re talking to online, and the more often invented person is a man. It’s more a symptom of the greater culture at large, and effectively just a part of our language. We have “they” but I think there’s also a gender-neutral “he” that we just don’t recognize that arose from the male-as-default idea. Intentionally misgendering, on the other hand, is 100% a shitty thing to do, but that’s an argument on a different topic anyway
Or at least, we are all capable of being incapable and illogical. We are all just human after all.
Of course, give ourselves room for error, but we also learn from it
In my experience, the real thought bubble is probably closer to “Look at all these people who have their shit so together. I’m such a loser. I hope they can’t figure out that I’m faking it.”
Edit to add:
The people who really are losers (as opposed to just believing they are) put others down to try to build themselves up.
Ugh this shit makes me so MAD!! I’m sorry you had to experience that, and I’m proud of you for recognizing the warning signs and leaving.
Yeah sure, it’s not all men, but it sure seems like all women (that date men) have dealt with this garbage to the point where they have to constantly be on the lookout for these same shit. And these guys know that it’s a problem, so they hide it and each flag you see isn’t necessarily red (cause maybe he’s just oblivious/misinformed/joking/whatever), and you need to keep a list of these maybe-problems and make a determination if is the one that means all these other things were actually red flags. Also - everyone is excited and thinks their partner is the best at the beginning of a relationship, and it’s hard to identify a red flag when you’re wearing rose-colored glasses.
“Schrodinger’s douchebag” is the guy who says something problematic, then decides whether it was a joke depending on the reaction he gets. Women collect a bunch of Schrodinger’s red flags, that only become glaringly red when you already know the guy’s a dick.
I’d HIGHLY recommend the book “Why does he do that” for both men and anyone who dates men. The author works with abusive men, and discusses the root causes of the problematic behavior that so many women experience. TL;DR: Men have deep-seated expectations for how their partner should behave and make them feel, and deviations from those expectations are met with anger. I’m not abusive, but reading it helped me identify similar thought patterns that I had, and I’m a better partner for it.
I think there’s a seed of truth in “fuck all men” since all men ARE exposed to problematic worldviews and the “traditional” set of expectations for a relationship are patriarchal. Yes, there are exceptions, but “men” as an abstract group hold those views, and FUCK those guys.
Gender studies as in the kind you learn in college or as in just the research field?
I have lived this kind of experience many times and would’ve pointed out to him it seems awfully indoctrination-like that he’s so willing to override his memories he shares with you with ethical odds and ends he picked up later. Due to asexuality, this is even amped up for me, as asexuality to the manosphere is like Antarctica to a flat earther, in that it must not exist if the objective does. So I could often go for some of those guy friends.
“as asexuality to the manosphere is like Antarctica to a flat earther”
Damn, this quote is fire.
Just yesterday I was telling a female coworker about how toxic masculinity is such a hard thing to recognize for men and even more difficult to overcome. The example was how the two guys who hold a senior IT position were always fixing problems in a vacuum and not sharing with others how it was fixed or what the problem was. And how that is hurting the whole group.
I absolutely disagree with your guy friend and I am sorry that it worked out like it did. Good for you for making the right choice. I hope you find a much more healthy relationship soon :)
The men I have met that either endorse or handwave-away toxic masculinity are really fragile and often have so many other problems in their lives that maintaining any kind of relationship is impossible, even with other toxic-masculinity-type guys.
Glad you dodged this bullet.
I had a coworker-friend who was too into right wing Internet stuff, and trying to deprogram him was hard work. People spend hours soaking up glossy garbage and find communities of like minded people. I think I only made any progress at all with that guy because we were already friendly over work and video game shared experiences.
The guy from your post is probably on some “manosphere” website complaining about how his misfortune right now. Maybe one day he’ll realize he’s the primary architect of his poor outcomes.
I think my response would be “and yet, so many men still fall for shysters like Andrew Tate”.
Well done on getting out. He sounds like a
dadsad case.like a dad case.
That is one wild autocorrect.
Ooh, I figured it was some new slang…
Have you met his dad?
Freudian autocorrect.
Oh, that was one of the yellow flags! I mentioned that I’d been following the case with Tate, and he’s a sex trafficker. Homeboy said “well it’s not proven in court” like…sir lol. Fucking yikes. Definitely not ignoring that in the future
Didn’t he literally brag about sex trafficking??
Yes 😭 but I figured at the time not everyone has seen or heard that. The only reason I know is I follow Bruce Rivers on YouTube
That’s fucking rough. The manosphere is such a sad thing because it’s con artists and assholes profiting off selling men the idea that they can be worse people. Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
I will second that there are great feminist men out there. My metamour is an amazing guy who doesn’t tolerate any toxic masculinity or misogyny and clearly tries to lead by example on the front of being masculine as fuck in a healthy and positive way.
Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
This is such a great line. It works for any toxic worldview/belief system.
The Internet lets all the village idiots find each other
But it also lets us all find each other
yeah that’s what they said
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It even let’s the village idiots, of village idiots find each other.
Hey, since you asked to share wins we’ve had in this regard:
Not a woman, but something that has occasionally worked for me is sharing this one article. It’s called The magical thinking of guys who love logic.
It sometimes works with those guys that believe that men are inherently more logical than women like the one you mentioned. Though in my experience this article is most effective with atheist men and not so much with religious men, since it has a bit of a focus on criticizing a type of militant online atheism (a superficial type of atheism I might add and one that paradoxically reproduces a sort of puritan mindset masked under progressivism, much like TERFism, sex-negative “progressives” and some other current mindsets). It also works best if the guys on question are already a bit open to criticism (or at least like to pretend they are open-minded) since the article starts with a tone of criticizing right-wing ideologies.
Ooof. As a former new atheist who still believes in logic, reason, and rationality, this article is the truth. If there’s anything I learned from my time with the New Atheists, it’s that I need other people to help me realize when I’m wrong.
My moment of clarity came when Sam Harris, who I really looked up to, started advocating for torture of Muslims because Islam was inherently bad. That really rubbed me the wrong way, even after 9/11.
Yep. I still value reason and particularly science as one of the important guiding principles in my life, though it can’t be the only one. Empathy, for example, is incredibly important, as is being open to one’s own emotions.
I was lucky to not fall into that movement as a teen though, mostly because I was outside of the US cultural sphere of influence back then I assume.
The most emotional people I know have been logic-worshiping men.
Almost like denying your emotion keeps you from checking it.
Anger is clearly not an emotion /s
I’ve bookmarked it to check it out later, sounds interesting af. Thank you!
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*. I had one once tell me that I was lucky to have a pretty face because my body would put most men off, and then he expected to get laid. Like, what? My dude that is not how any of this works.
But experiences like this help us learn to spot those red flags earlier. And frankly it can also be a self-esteem boost, like you clearly respect yourself enough to have kicked this guy to the curb and that’s something to feel great about! You know you’re worthy of better and that you didn’t bring this on yourself. Meanwhile he’s just got another in probably a long line of romantic failures that are entirely of his own doing.
Have to admit, and I don’t mean to pry, but I am SO curious how he responded when you laid it out logically for him like that.
Anyway, solidarity. So much solidarity.
* well ok, I do know. but it’s very very silly.
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*.
Quite simply, men like this are not looking for a partner, they are looking for a servant they can fuck.
They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.
Good on Op for walking away.
They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.
Amen to that.
Or they are just looking for a repository for their negative feelings. Their own personal dumping ground, if you will. It’s great that these men (and it’s not just men) expose themselves with flat footed negging early on.
A lot of the PUA routine is about putting women down, so they think saying that sort of shit is cool.
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This doesn’t reflect my experience at all.
I’ve seen it. Not in that rigidness but I’ve seen a lot of women cling to idiots for too long (sometimes bizarre stories). There’s some truth to that post.
Nor mine. I’ve had a lot of women talk to me about their relationship goals, perhaps because I’m gay so they know I’m a disinterested third party. I’ve never had anyone confide in me that they like the company of abusive assholes. Quite the contrary, in fact.
What I have noticed are a lot of guys who think they’re nice to women, but really aren’t. I’ve also seen men who project a completely fabricated persona to women, acting polite and caring, but being the most vicious untrustworthy backstabbers in the room – e.g., being extremely polite and civil to the woman, but then telling me they can’t wait to get into her pants, etc., the moment she’s out of earshot.
Exactly my experience though from the other kind of gay perspective. I’ll also add, a lot of the women who like assholes are abuse victims already. When you’re an abuse victim the early stages of abuse are comfortable and familiar. Add in things like love bombing and the thing with assholes often bring far more comfortable making moves
I want to stress for anyone finding themselves in this pattern, healing is possible and there are often free or low cost services, especially with telehealth now more widely available and experts weighing in on social media
I am an abuse victim, but I’ve had therapy on and off and have been in school for psych the last few years, throwing myself into understanding through as many outlets as possible. I may have fallen for this shit ten years ago. Now look at me slappin this shit down 😤
And communities like this are so important, too! Building support groups so you aren’t isolated and being gaslit into further trauma.
Yeah I really second this. Being polyamorous and knowing most of my relationships won’t be lifelong I try to leave every partner better than I found her. I had an ex that was uncomfortable with the lack of abuse and sometimes lashed out over it, it was hard and contributed to the death of the relationship but she was healing, it was just a slow process. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a woman who grew up in an abusive household and married an abusive man as a teenager. But she’s currently married to a kind and wonderful man and she seems to think I’m also very good for her.
And then there’s me, I have cptsd from my childhood but am happily married to someone who treats me right. Any reader who thinks they’re alone probably knows people who once were in this cycle and found their way out long enough ago that you don’t even realize they were there. And you aren’t beyond healing, nobody is.
What I have noticed are a lot of guys who think they’re nice to women, but really aren’t. I’ve also seen men who project a completely fabricated persona to women, acting polite and caring, but being the most vicious untrustworthy backstabbers in the room – e.g., being extremely polite and civil to the woman, but then telling me they can’t wait to get into her pants, etc., the moment she’s out of earshot.
This, especially the first part, seems relevant. Like “I tip the starbucks girl every time why won’t she go out with me?” is a sad, common, energy. (Because she’s at work my dude. She has to be nice to you.)
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It’s interesting, I’m sure you’re right that this does work on some people and I have no evidence to suggest you’re lying about having personally seen it a lot. But as with other commenters, this just isn’t my experience at all. Thinking about my straight female friends, I can’t recall anyone going for a guy who even remotely resembles this. And thinking about my straight male friends, obviously none of them are like this at all otherwise they wouldn’t be my friends.
For what it’s worth, I grew up super working class poor (dad worked down a coal mine) and a lot of my oldest friends are still in similar situations. Nowadays I also know a lot of quite well off middle class folks. But neither group would put up with this kind of behaviour from partners / friends / themselves. Whatever the difference is with your friend group, I don’t think it’s that.
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select mates
Where are you picking up that kind of lingo for human interactions, friend? Maybe it’s just a quirk of yours, but I only ever see this kind of language from incels and incel circles, and it’s not just the “mate” line, but the whole of your post
So I’ll opine. You’re seeing something that’s confirming to a preconceived notion. Not gonna say there are no women who don’t like their bad boys or actually toxic people–god knows I know some of those women–but it is hardly the standard, and your anecdotal accounts mean you’re subject to things like social class and circles, culture, and region. Besides that, it could still be plainly untrue what you see, but its possible you are only even registering the women who fit this idea. There could be 20 women in happy, healthy relationships, but you’re not thinking about them. You’re only considering the woman in a toxic relationship, and when you try and recall the dynamics you know, only thos come to mind
This is fairly common mindset for incels, red-pillers, that whole group. They’ll talk about how easy it is for women to have sex, but it’s because their idea of women is already “something to have sex in”, so they’re not open to the idea that there are plenty of women who do struggle with dating
And besides that, who are you to judge the men they’re with? You say they’ll avoid 10 awesome dudes for [cavalcade of generic reactionary insults], but are those 10 dudes really awesome? You’re not dating them, nor do you have a woman’s lived experience to watch out for certain yellow or red flags that those men may clearly be displaying. Alternatively, maybe what makes an awesome dude to you is not actually what makes them awesome to women. Maybe the guys you’re calling bad boys aren’t as bad as you think, is what I’m saying
Or yeah, maybe you’ve just seen and know a bunch of women who have made some poor choices. For whatever reason, it does happen, after all. Women are not immune to subscribing to ideas of toxic masculinity, and we can be vicious about it. We shouldn’t, but we can
Juts try and make sure that whatever spaces you’re occupying, especially the kind you’re picking up that incel jargon from, you think critically about what they’re saying. It is so incredibly easy to get sucked into the manosphere
I’m not going to speak about humans because that’s too contentious. But anthropology has lots of study of primate partner selection and genetic outcomes. Were they measure based on reproductive success. If you look at the genetic data, you’ll see that there is a bimodal approach to sexual selection in primates.
The old trope is: males maximize the reproductive success by having a diverse set of partners, and investing in only a few. Females maximize the reproductive success by having relatively few partners and maximizing investment in a few offspring. But in both scenarios diversifying the genetic material gives you a higher probability of a successful outcome. Interestingly in primates teste size is directly related to the promiscuity of the species. So bonobos have very large testes, and orangutan’s relatively small testes. Because they have less sperm competition.
If this kind of research interest you, I highly recommend taking a look at an anthropology primate sexual selection course, or at least the reading for one.
So where people get into a lot of contentious trouble is humans have opinions, and the research done on primates does not necessarily correlate with the behavior of humans, and it’s easy to take some research and make broad sweeping generalizations about behavior and etc.
So this is where applying the bimodal sexual incentives, the manosphere latched on and said, it maximizes the reproductive success of a female to find a stable social partner, but to get diverse hybridized genes from short-term sexual partners. i.e. the abd boy attraction is due to this bimodal sexual preference. I have no idea if this actually applies to humans, it’s an interesting theory, but no research ethics board is ever going to allow for a study on this.
Interestingly there were species of birds that were thought to be monogamous, but with the advent of cheap genetic testing, proved that the bird species followed this bimodal sexual model even though they had a nominal social partner. Super interesting data
This reads like incel copypasta.
It is over the top but unfortunately i have seen it with my old friends and certainly coworkers. Especially the really lonely desperate women all flock to the louder, flamboyent type men. I think it is simply that they want someone who gives them attention, loudly. This way they feel loved and everyone knows that they are loved, unfortunately everyone else can see these men for what they are.
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Yeah but those women tend to be just as terrible
One key to understanding the relationship success of coal-rolling MAGA idiots is that women are not automatically more intelligent, aware, mature or sensitive themselves. Some may find they’re unhappy with a partner like that but it’s just as likely they prefer it because they are the same way themselves.
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Have you considered that you might suffer a bit of confirmation bias? Honest question, not trying to put you down. I just don’t see lots of those guys in relationships myself, and women in my area are pretty aware of their toxicity.
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You know what I see?
I’m married. 20 years. I do my best to be good to her and vice versa. All but one of our married friends are decent men and women that treat each other well. The one exception is a guy who was always a total dick and sloughed off his responsibilities as a dad and husband. Pretty sure he has some kind of anti social personality disorder. The divorce was and bitter. Fuck that asshole. They married really young.
Anyway. The point is, my anecdotal experience is very different from yours. Good healthy relationships aren’t possible with manosphere dickheads.
Yeah they might attract some women, the ones that have some big issues to work on. Nobody who has healthy self esteem is going to put up with that shit.
So what does that tell you about how well girls are treated growing up? There are way too many traumatized girls growing into traumatized women. I’ve read and heard so many stories of women having to sort themselves out so they can stop dating these shit bags.
The assholes may prey on vulnerable women but in the end those guys are going to be on their Nth failed marriage and bitter and never point the finger at themselves.
Meanwhile the relatively decent guys usually find someone and manage to build an actual life together with that person based on mutual respect and partnership. I’ve seen it over and over and over again.
Also every man likely has things to learn about regarding sexism. I did and I will always be learning more. I wished I had known in my teens what I know now. We are all steeped in this sexist, racist, competitive, exploitative culture and even if we don’t want it to, some of that poison infects lur own thinking. It’s inescapable. But it’s also something we can recognize and fight too.
Also, no, half the country isn’t assholes. Just less than half that actually vote. So maybe 1/3.
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Oh, that line I gave him about logic was one of the last things I said as I finished picking up my stuff to walk out the door. I followed up with “it’s been fun - good luck.” He had just kept digging in and I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
Thank you for sharing your experience, though it fucking sucks. You’re right that I do feel empowered for recognizing my worth. Just hate that it’s coming from mistreatment, you know? Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜
So funny that he didn’t see the logic at hiding his misogynistic world view. The point, i guess, was not to school you on logic but to test how much crap you’d put up with.
I hope he actually took a moment or two of self reflection and understands that he himself was not displaying much logic in the relationship. Who knows, maybe he’ll even question one or two of his misogynistic beliefs.
I’m sorry you had to put up with that but at least you’ve learned what to look out for.
Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜
Hear, hear! I read your other replies and am glad you’re feeling motivated to keep going. It’s hard sometimes, but it’s worth it when you find the right person.
Fuck yeah lol you’re a badass. I would stammer something about needing to go and think of all that in the shower later.
To be fair, it started the night before and I stayed up journaling on my phone for a while after he fell asleep 😅
Good on you for walking.
I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
As a guy who has seen several women friends fall for the “I can change him” mindset, well done. It is not your job to fix the world view of a person who does not want to.
I remember an old joke:
“How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?”
‘One, but the light bulb has got to want to change.’
I know it sucks right now but at least he showed his cards early and you didn’t have to waste too much time on him.
I love the joke, thank you. I’m feeling excited to move on:)
I’m curious what the yellow flags were. Did he lead you into the weird misogyny like systematically, trying to ease you into accepting it? If you remember anything he said where it might have suggested he had these feelings, I’d love to hear it.
And before you feel bad or anything like that, we’ve ALL ignored yellow flags when we think something might go somewhere and we’re into it. It’s like biological lol
Ok this turned into a novel, so buckle up I guess lol. Yeah, there was a lot said over the month that I pushed back on. There’s nuance to it though, right? It’s not like the manosphere content is built entirely on lies. Like, one of the first things that stuck out to me is him saying that when men lean into their masculinity then women can embrace their femininity. That can be true for some couples, but it’s obviously not universal and is more often fluid.
He talked about his sister a few times, a psych major that I didn’t know identifies as non-binary until he showed me their Facebook page by chance and I saw their pronouns listed. But he didn’t care. He said they were “radicalized” after they went to college.
Another one: “choices have consequences” when discussing abortion, even though he did agree it should be available, it’s just “morally gray” for him. His ex had one and he said he thought she secretly wanted him to push her to keep it. They broke up shortly after.
Anyway, most of the rest of it was just sprinkled in, and culminated in the conversation yesterday. It actually started the night before, I got upset and wanted to shut down the conversation cuz it was all really building up, but we repaired, went to hang out with our friend, and it wasn’t until later it hit me he’d said that thing about men traditionally being the head of the household because they’re more capable “if you look at the results.” I dwelled on it forever after he fell asleep, journaled about it on my phone and had my responses ready the next morning.
Wow. Well I’m sure he’ll make some woman soooo happy one day (I mean, “woman happy,” so cooking, cleaning, churning out progeny, etc.)
So bizarre, the internet has just opened so many stupid people to various forms of grifters, but the toxic masculinity crowd are the absolute worst. Sorry your old friend turned out to be a turd. Glad you’re smart enough to recognize it and move forward with your life.
You’ll find someone kind and worthwhile - just takes sifting through a fuckload of hay before you find the needle. Unfortunately you found a worm instead of hay this time - gross, but just toss it to the side and keep searching. 💜
Tbh for me it’s been hard to keep putting energy into it, every time I break up with someone else I just feel like all that energy was wasted which is stupid because I definitely learn things from each relationship but god damn I just wanna find my human. ffs. Ngl I turned 30 and was just like well either I grow some thick skin and get on with it or I’m gonna fuckin die alone lmao. So easy to just give up after a shitty breakup and just be single… Idk, no lesson there - just sharing.
You asked for wins so here’s mine - I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about 3 months now and signs are good even post honeymoon-period. She actually cares and doesn’t have gender expectations of me at all, which is refreshing because I work somewhere that I’m basically expected to be masculine and it’s nice to get to be the little spoon occasionally and not have to put on a stupid mask of projected confidence and stoicism I feel like I have to at work. She doesn’t judge me if I cry a little. We both go out of our way to do nice things for each other and it actually feels like it might be a legit partnership - I’m cautiously optimistic this time! ☺️
If it helps, those guys treat other guys the same way.
Also if it helps there are women who treat other people this way too.
This seems akin to racism to me. My favorite quote about this is from President Lyndon B. Johnson. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
My dad isn’t this kind of guy, but he is an old white guy that watches Fox News. And it’s the same thing with them. He has bought any number of supplements advertised on Fox News, and believes wholeheartedly that one day the world will finally understand the deep wisdom he believes in.
I don’t believe you can categorize people as a simple either or. “You’re a red piller or not.” “You’re a conservative or a liberal.” But I do think you can apply a personality type to people. And it sounds like you sussed out a guy who really needs to feel superior to other people. I fucking hate those kind of people. So good for you, there are a lot of people who may have never figured it out, or weren’t socially aware enough to see it. It sucks this turned out to be what it was, but celebrate the fact you’re a strong enough person not to put up with it
That’s a good quote. And by good, I mean helpful in understanding the cycle of assholery.
You may already know about this but your description of sexism as akin to racism made me want to mention intersectionality. It’s an analytical framework used to describe social relations as it pertains to privilege and discrimination. There’s a good reason you felt that way. Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny, which is considered to be the original form of oppression
Thank you for your comment. I’ve heard of intersectionality but didn’t quite understood the idea behind it, as it was only in passing mentioned.
Now watching a talk by Kimberlé Crenshaw
I’d go a step further: all is modeled after power. If you feel* you have more power it’s because the other part is “less than you”, not because you both have different strengths.
*Feel, not that it’s real.
Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny
Could you possibly give a brief synopsis of why they think misogyny is the base model rather than (eg) racism? Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense, but I’m curious about the basic theory.
Patriarchal society developed before the concepts of race we use today. Much of how society was shaped stemmed from the tribes and clans of the pre modern era.
I just want to say that your break up line was just excellent. Chef’s kiss
Good on you. Next time you want to go “fuck all men” remember that would be stooping as low as a misogynist, only on the other side of the road.
The silver lining is that pain helps people see flag’s true colours better. So you will (I hope) not waste time with someone else showing similar warning signs next time.
There’s technically not a single wrong word with your comment in my opinion. But, respectfully, don’t you feel it reads as a bit condescending and admonishing? Especially when rereading the OP and then your comment in succession. The OP said they just wanted to vent a little here but then go on to barely vent at all: they just say they ‘wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode’ but didn’t since they know it’s not true or helpful. As I read it they just felt the (understandable) initial frustration but immediately worked through that feeling like an adult.
I didn’t mean to be condescending or admonishing. Of course OP knows better. OP also mentioned she has a good support group which is what helped in this case. But from experience, sometimes groups and friends come and go, and so do problems with partners. I’m only hoping my comment helps OP see why they were right in doing what they did and maybe give a different perspective to someone else reading the comments.
Yes, that’s actually why I didn’t reply to them. The first part of the comment comes across like they didn’t read what I wrote directly after, and I’m not interested in repeating myself or getting defensive over having a brief reactionary response to emotional abuse. Thank you 💜
Well I’m sorry it came across that way. I’m not trying to attack you or upset you at all, just hoping to give you a different perspective on why what you did was right. I repeat, what you did was right. I’m glad you have a solid support group irl now and I hope you keep it for life, but from experience that’s not always the case for everyone, and there is also the unfortunate possibility you may have a bad experience with a partner again- which I hope you don’t. But if you do find yourself in that situation, I’m hoping my previous comment helps you see you are better prepared to face such situation again in the future.
