Interesting that Chinese „Opinion Makers“ now decide to pitch for Hamas.
That news site is considered fake news by MBFC: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/09/1218384968/mosque-gaza-omari-israel-hamas-war
NPR is fake news, you heard it here first, folks.
Tankie gaslighting in action.
deleted by creator
Then why not use NPR as a source?
Feel free to point out any inaccurate reporting in the article. Ad hominem attacks aren’t very useful.
Fuck you. Use a reputable source.
If it walks like ethnic cleansing and talks like ethnic cleansing then it can’t be ethnic cleansing because their grandparents went through the holocaust.
deleted by creator
What are you basing that on? And is it a meaningful distinction? Bombs sure as hell don’t discriminate based on politics…
deleted by creator
Germany is surrounded by undermench if they wanted to ethnically cleanse them why are they only invading the sudentenland?
Room temp iq take.
Because currently they are interested in ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to steal their land.
They target mosques on Fridays specifically became that is the Muslim holy day.
Pretty sure Friday is most peoples holy day.
HFIF
They’ve been destroying civic buildings too. They’re trying to erase any remainder of Palestinian culture.
If Hamas had not attacked and kidnapped citizens that would not have happened.
I can very well imagine a scenario where Hamas had solely attacked military targets and this would have still happened. Israel is ruled by the extremist far right, the love this.
I guess then we should collectively punish their entire people.
I’m sure that’s never gone poorly before.
And to line it up just a little more on the nose for you:
A similar example to what your are arguing Israel is justified in doing.
Collective punishment is terrible but unfortunately is present in every war. It’s never a fight only between soldiers.
Oh, it’s “unfortunate” is it? Sounds like you want us to think it’s a thing that just happened and not a decision made at the top.
Just following orders boss!
Horseshit, don’t equate this with collateral damage. The difference is nations generally minimize civilian death, not make it the sole purpose of the offense. It wouldn’t be a war crime otherwise.
A study covered by Ha’aretz: the civilian deaths account for 61% of deaths from air strikes in Gaza.
This makes the Gaza slaughter more fatal to civilians than any other conflict in the entire 20th Century. The century that included many genocides and both world wars.
In which major war nations tried to minimize collateral damage? Because in wars like Russia, Afganistan, Syria and many others, you cannot say there was someone who tried to minimize collateral damage. They simply wanted to win and usually at any cost.
The Israel-Gaza conflict has a larger percentage of civilian deaths than any other 20th century conflict, as was researched by Israeli universities.
Pretty much because it lasts longer than any other 20th century conflict.
Also, is it also more than WW1 and WW2?
For the percentage the duration does not matter.
And it’s considerably more than WW1. In WW1, the percentage was 41%. For WW2, estimates differ a bit, varying from 60-67%.
The current Gaza-conflict percentage stands at 61%, and it appears to be rising.
I do see I have to rectify myself a bit. I saw a headline stating it was higher than all 20th century conflicts, but the article contained a line stating it was higher than the average of all 20th century conflicts (which is about 50%). Small but significant detail, mea culpa.
Regardless of that, it’s higher than WW1 by a huge margin and it’s about as high as WW2 (which had death camps that civilians were sent to). If the IDF has reached that level of civilian casualties, any claims that they do their best to avoid targeting civilians have been effectively debunked.
Yes, let’s blame a whole country and genocide them because of Hamas.
Also, Hamas didn’t just come up in a vacuum. People here in Germany are radicalizing because they were asked to wear masks during a pandemic and they heard that brown people are now seeking refuge in Germany. Palestinians have been suppressed, starved and killed for decades and none of the more moderate forces have been able to do anything about it. Not that Hamas would do any better, but it’s understandable that people support more radical movements when they’re literally fighting for their survival.
How dare that mosque kidnap Israeli citizens!
“If a bunch of terrorists had not attacked and kidnalled citizens, we wouldn’t have murdered citizens”
Israel has been doing this for decades before Hamas was even a thing. Read history.
And because one side crossed a moral line that justifies doing the same?
They didn’t do the same. Hamas did not target children.
I didn’t claim that they did the same. I asked whether it is justified to commit atrocious crimes just because one side crossed a moral line by commiting another (not necessarily similar) atrocious crime.
The user who said “this crime is justified because of another crime” is rauls4. The user you replied to was arguing against rauls4’s comment.
Other palestinian organizations have been also attacking Israel for decades. They both made terrible decisions.
Only since Palestinians were kicked out of their homes by Israel.
What are you referring to?
Look up the Nakba.
Yes, nakba was handled terribly from Israel’s side. Especially burning villages should have never happened.
However, on the other hand, thousands of Jews were removed from other Arab countries, as well. The comment above is again purely one sided and forgets to mention that whilst Israelis removed many Arabs from the area, Arabs did the same to the Jews.
I condemn both of these actions. Both Arabs and Jews should not have expelled people from their homes.
Edit: correction of typos
I think some austrian painter in the 30s used this kind of logic… must be just a coincidence…
Please elaborate how Adolf Hitler used kidnapped civilians as a justification for his actions.
I agree with you that Hamas is terrible and that Israel needs to destroy it, otherwise we will have 7th October every few years. Israel has the right to defend and to respond. However, at the same time, bombing 1400 years old buildings crosses the line imo. It’s incorrect to make the judgement that if Hamas are terrorists and they are Muslims that every Muslim is a terrorist as well. Hence why they should target Hamas buildings and not Muslim buildings or if they plan to get rid of mosques like this one, have a very good reason for it.
they should target Hamas buildings
Hamas is a terrorist organization and not going to clearly mark their buildings in an organized or defined manner.
Is Hamas above using a mosque in the same way they leverage hospitals and schools and other innocent-heavy locales?
Edit: I get its a provocative question but one of the downvoters should have a little intellectual integrity and express why thats absurf given what has been documented. If they’ll use a hospital, why is a mosque suddenly more sacred?
Should we then just excuse it and be like, “just let kill us because you don’t have marked buildings, so we don’t know what we can destroy. Okay, we will just leave you then.”
Israel effectively declared war on Palestine in 1967 (more accurately in 1917, but that aside). From that point onward any action with a military or political goal taken by Palestinians against their oppressors is justified.
Slaughtering civilians is never justified. What Hamas did was horrifying and a crime against humanity. But the reason why Hamas ever got so strong in the first place has a lot to do with how Isreal has systematically oppressed and killed Palestinians for decades. And the war it is waging now against the Palestinian people is also indefensible. It should be widely condemned, any support withdrawn and Israel should be sanctioned.
What Hamas did was horrifying and a crime against humanity.
The specifics of the attack, yeah. Any action that caused harm to civilians without a clear military goal absolutely must be prosecuted as a war crime/crime against humanity. But that doesn’t make the whole attack a terror attack, because it had a clear military goal and was staged against military and political targets, is what I’m trying to say.
We need to be aware of the difference between “Hamas committed crimes against humanity on October 7th” and “the October 7th attack was a crime against humanity”.
In my opinion raping women, mutilating them, even cutting off their breasts and playing with that (source) crosses a moral line.
I despise violence and condemn both sides for the crimes they are committing.
Stop linking your fake news. IDF quotes without evidence aren’t a source
I have seen this covered on various news portals. I just chose one of them. Why do you think this is fake news?
I never said otherwise. That’s why I said military or political goal. We absolutely should be condemning the rape and any other deliberate murder of innocents.
You keep meeting the atrocities committed by Hamas when they’re really not relevant in this precise instance.
Millennia-old houses of worship are treasures belonging to our species, not assets on a ledger belonging to any particular party in a conflict. So pointing out Hamas’ misdeeds is as relevant as pointing out the atrocities committed by the US against native Americans. It’s terrible, but it doesn’t provide context useful to the news that the IDF destroyed an ancient cultural treasure.
I see that you repeatedly condemn both sides, and I think that’s admirable. But it still seems misguided because it sounds like you’re trying to keep score when this isn’t a soccer match. Neither side gets a pass because the other did something bad too. This mosque wasn’t on anyone’s team.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
When has blowing up a religious building served to reduce the intensity of conflict?
Probably never. Cutting of breasts of raped women and playing with that did probably also not help (source). Idiots everywhere.
Unfortunately many of the government presented eyewitness accounts have been thoroughly debunked. While I do not doubt that rape occurred, it looks like the Israeli government attempted to greatly exaggerate the events. This includes conflating civilian and military deaths; falsely claiming 40 babies were beheaded (only one was killed); falsely claiming children were staked together and burned alive; and more.
What’s really flabbergasting to me is the reality was bad enough. 900 civilians killed. Grenades thrown into shelters. Cases of burning individual people to death. Cases of rape and murder. Cases of torturing people before killing them.
They didn’t need to lie. But they did anyways and now it’s really hard to trust anything the Israeli government puts out.
I didn’t notice that they were debunked. Could you please provide some sources on that? That could bring me up to speed and change a few things.
This is debunked fake news without evidence. Stop linking your shitty israeli propaganda sites.
Hamas filmed their own crimes against civilians. Hamas needs to be annihilated immediately without any trace left. That said, I don’t trust Israel to do that. Entire world needs to unite and send international forces to Gaza.
No actually there is zero video evidence of the rape accusations nor the child executions.
The worst thing Hamas did is cut the throat of an already shot dead Thai worker. Though I’d argue the killing is worse than mutilating the body afterwards.
I recommend you watch this video in which someone who saw the confidential israeli videos narrates the things that did and didn’t happen.
Thanks a lot for the link! I watched the whole video. This definetly puts things into perspective regarding the trustworthyness of several news reports. I especially liked and agreed with the last part of his talk.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/mc5iG3DX7ho?si=ybNzL7w1jw2Cw_62
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Didn’t knew that BBC was a shitty israeli propaganda site. However, I saw this covered on multiple news portals. Could you provide your source that this was debunked? This could change things for me. I don’t want to spread fake news of course.
If that’s true, does that mean Israels response is justified?
Can you imagine the uproar if Russia did this in Ukraine to a christian church,but its ok its only muslims.Would make you sick.
While still absolutely deplorable, Russia mostly shot random shells through the roofs, or the glass exploded from nearby explosions, or they shot with machine guns.
According to that article I didn’t see Russia throwing a targeted bunker buster bomb to explode the entire building and kill everyone inside.
This
Vs this
They did blow up entire buildings and kill everyone inside
Man I love reading articles of Russians doing the same stuff as israel. They’re (correctly) being branded as unforgivable war criminal terrorists in every second sentence. Somehow these words never show up in articles about israel.
The article you linked is indeed pretty bad albeit not an ancient holy site.
The casualty rate is 300-600 out of 1500 so not everyone died. Furthermore the building is not completely flattened so the bombs they’re using seem less powerful than what israel is throwing on Gaza.
That said you’re right, if this was an intentional targeting while they knew it was a civilian hiding spot then this is on the same level of evil.
Tell me again how this has to do with “defending themselves.”
Genocidal monsters.
THIS IS NOT A NEWS SOURCE
Xinhua News Agency, or New China News Agency, is the official state news agency of the People’s Republic of China. A State Council’s ministry-level institution founded in 1931, Xinhua is the largest media organ in China.
Xinhua is a publisher, as well as a news agency; it publishes in multiple languages and is a channel for the distribution of information related to the Chinese government and the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Its headquarters in Beijing are located close to the central government’s headquarters at Zhongnanhai.
Xinhua tailors its pro-Chinese government message to the nuances of each international audience. The organization has faced criticism for spreading propaganda and disinformation and for criticizing people, groups, or movements critical of the Chinese government and its policies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_News_Agency
Their press freedom ranking is “Total Oppression” which means they publish whatever Dear Leader tells them to under threat of torture, imprisonment, or death. Not news.
How’s this for a source?: https://www.npr.org/2023/12/09/1218384968/mosque-gaza-omari-israel-hamas-war
Or is NPR “Total Oppression”?
Thanks you for posting this. I tried searching for this story on Google News to find a reputable source and I couldn’t find one. This was yesterday morning. There were about 12 sources, all obscure, with the only one I’ve heard of being the Hindustan Times (and I really have no idea their quality).
So before we give anyone a hard time for doubting this source, just recognize that at least when this was posted, it was suspiciously lacking any legit sources.
NPR is a fine source. The US has press freedom. They’re rated as “High Credibility”. You thought I’d have a problem with that?
Don’t post shit from state-controlled propaganda networks.
When it comes to this conflict, no news sources are reliable. All western sources are verbatim quoting IDF and spreading propaganda. If they did this for Putin quotes we’d call them psyops. Virtually all “unbiased” media sources have completely wrecked their reputation.
The Omari Mosque was originally a 5th century Byzantine church that was built over a more ancient temple. It was converted into a mosque in the 7th century, then a Crusader church in the 11th century, and back to a mosque in the 13th century.
The architectural elements of the Crusader church were still apparent in the modern-day mosque, and an etching of a Jewish menorah on a mosque column, believed to have been originally part of an ancient synagogue, was once documented, and was destroyed in recent decades.
All that history- gone.
Edit: If you want some perspective, this mosque was from the century before the Buddhas that the Taliban destroyed.
Thanks. Op should probably update the source to this one or similar. There’s no reason to link to a bad source if good ones are available.
Looking at their comments here, I don’t think OP is interested in playing by the community rules.
Propaganda is insidious.
Feel free to point out something inaccurate in the article rather than resorting to ad hominem arguments.
That’s not really what ad hominem means.
Yes it is, it’s attacking the source for being Chinese. The news itself is true: https://www.npr.org/2023/12/09/1218384968/mosque-gaza-omari-israel-hamas-war
Suddenly the news is more real because a western source reports on it? Ironically people will think they’re immune to propaganda because they’ve been trained to automatically distrust non-western sources.
I could see if it was a deflection and criticized something irrelevant about China or the news agency. But saying you aren’t sure about a story because the source is known to be unreliable is perfectly reasonable. And yes, I trust NPR more than the official state media of any government. I’d say, the Trump administration released a statement saying basically anything and it was repeated by Fox, I’d be wary, so no, I don’t agree with the “western” thing.
Dude, chill. When I researched this yesterday morning, I could only find obscure blogs and small foreign press. With news this big, that was suspicious. One doesn’t have to be racist to think so.
But apparently NPR was just a day behind, which is maybe understandable as a lot of information coming out of that area can be hard to verify, and NPR does try very hard to get it right. And it’s not because they’re western. They’re very good at their job. Whatever this Chinese source is simply has zero reputation for me, and in that case it’s only wise to treat it with skepticism.
Yes it is, it’s attacking the source for being Chinese.
No, it’s attacking the source for being integral to propaganda arm of the CCP. I’d hope to see the same response to state-run media of any non-democratic country. It’s also not intending to discredit the news whatsoever, so it isn’t an ad hominem attack. They’re encouraging you to use more trustworthy sources.
Suddenly the news is more real because a western source reports on it?
No, this news is real regardless. There’s probably a post about it on 4chan; that doesn’t make 4chan a news source, either.
Ironically people will think they’re immune to propaganda because they’ve been trained to automatically distrust non-western sources.
There are countless well-trusted sources outside of the western world. They just don’t require a stamp of approval from their authoritarian government before they can publish.
No, it’s attacking the source for being integral to propaganda arm of the CCP.
Which is still ad hominem: Argument by the reputation of the bearer of the news instead of the integrity of the news.
Sure Xinhua is biased AF when it comes to many things of immediate interest to the CCP… but a mosque in Gaza isn’t really among those things. You could draw some link between China and the US being rivals and China wanting to publicise how the tail that wags the US is being a dipshit but that kind of thing is par for the course for pretty much any media outlet, there’s always bias in what to report on and what not. But that’s more an issue of consumers of whole frontpages, not individual articles.
My two cents is that what OP should’ve done is use a more neutral source of news, and what the critics should’ve done is slam Xinhua but also acknowledge that the article itself actually happens to be fine. There’s plenty of shit to criticise China for you don’t need to make stuff up, only hurts the case.
If you think recognizing the unreliability of the CCP is an ad hominem argument then you are living in a world that never, ever considers the source, and that’s just idiotic.
Thanks for stopping me from ingesting China’s largest media organ
Suggest reporting post for breaking community rules:
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda will be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating will be removed.
“How to Make Friends and Influence People”
How many of these mosques show secondary explosions after getting hit?
Is this racist bait?
This mosque was a member of Hamas!
They dropped leaflets on it warning they’d blow it up. It’s the mosques own fault for not moving.
Bad source but it is corroborated by NPR. This shit actually happened.
