That’s eleven men.
This is bad and I don’t want to justify or defend it. But this does not indicate mass executions of civilians as policy. It could well be a platoon leader who overstepped authority.
As the report states, the UN is calling for a formal investigation. As well they should.
What is the definition of a mass execution or massacre to you?
When I responded, the submission went to the World Socialist Web Site. I linked above to the actual report. If you read the actual report, you see that eleven civilians were murdered. And that’s terrible. The report rightly calls for an investigation.
You ask, what is a mass execution or massacre? Well, what happened here is unlawful killings. It’s a massacre. But my point was that an investigation was needed to determine if these killings were the result of Israeli policy or an event on the ground out of the hands of actual policymakers. Which would look something a whole lot more like the Katyn Massacre, where Soviet troops murdered 22,000 people in Poland during WWII.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
This doesn’t diminish those eleven lives. But that’s the difference between state policy and a military commander gone rogue.
When I responded, the submission went to the World Socialist Web Site. I linked above to the actual report. If you read the actual report, you see that eleven civilians were murdered. And that’s terrible. The report rightly calls for an investigation.
Yeah, no need to explain that, it was well understood the first time.
This doesn’t diminish those eleven lives. But that’s the difference between state policy and a military commander gone rogue.
I don’t know if we can assume that anymore. The whole IDF is the former. Many Palestinians aside from those died in custody in circumstances the IDF wants to investigate, and then these 11, and in the upcoming months we will hear about a lot more.
You ask, what is a mass execution or massacre?
You didn’t answer the question. Your point was clear from the first comment I responded to. There was no need for over explaining it all.
I suggest you Google mass killing and massacre and summary executions. “Mass” doesn’t imply thousands of people necessarily.
I’m not debating your point on mass executions. Even or 22,000. They’re bad.
But if you claim these were murdered as policy set by top leadership, you need evidence. Not speculation.
The evidence is the collection of IDF crimes committed every day. Sorry the list is too long to put in one post. I suggest you use Google.
No. That is not relevant to this crime. At best, it is circumstantial.
What is needed are documents from official sources. Witness testimony from within the high command attesting to orchestration of this crime. Actual specifics.
You are on a witch hunt.
I don’t think any of what you are saying here is a logical conclusion to “11 men”
Yes, just a completely consistent series of platoon leaders who systemically “overstep authority”. These are fully and totally autonomous actions… that are culturally mandated. Why everyone is so upsets?
I assume some people think MASS KILLING and EXECUTION are just shocking words being used, when instead they just describe the ugly reality.
When the culture and the legal system that is supposed to punish illegal activity like this, fails to do its job, the message to each individual is clear if not codified.
Behave as you want, because your leadership controls the information coming out to the wider world. Journalists are intimidated and killed.
If you are discovered, you will be quietly reassigned but not actually disciplined. Protests from the UN or other nations are dismissed using various tired phrases or tactics.
If you actually go to trial, the state will bow to pressure from the public and government officials and not sufficiently punish you for even crimes like murder. 18 months for a summary execution that was clearly premeditated and filmed. It doesn’t matter if the prosecution proves mens rea or that you were filmed loading a weapon first before slow walking over to your victim. You will get a downgraded charge to manslaughter and the broad public will push for your immediate release.
“Those are Self defence mass executions you fucking antisemite” - Israel probably.
- And subsequently the US
Coward yanks
I think that there is more than enough justification for the Arab League to launch a retaliation at this point. I for my part would support it.
Against a country with nukes?
If they’re afraid of attacking a country with nukes, they’ve already lost.
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Yep. The Arab league is a joke at this point, it has lost relevancy.
They’re mostly American puppet states such as Saudi and Egypt. Their government doesn’t care about anything but pocketing money. American puppet Sisi was just reelected in Egypt by arresting everyone running against him.
Insurgency groups are growing though since their governments doing nothing really pisses off the civilians. They’re not directly attacking israel but instead attack israeli or American targets close to them
Saudi has America, not the other way around. They knocked America’s towers and they sold them weapons and shook their hands.
No Osama went out of Saudi to Afghanistan to fight the Russians with a group of Saudi Jihad warriors under American support.
Then when Russia was defeated in Afghanistan, Palestine cried for help against the Israeli genocide so Osama turned against America which was (and is) massively supporting the Israeli genocide.
The previous Saudi ruler Faisal did turn against America for Palestine and turned off the oil. Then he subsequently was assassinated by his nephew which loved America and had an all American get up. Most likely a CIA intervention but no evidence for it.
Now we have MBS, the current Saudi Leader. Hevonly wants money and will do whatever will give him the most money. He will not wage any wars (for Palestine for example). And his morals change at a whim to whatever provides the most money. He’s basically Mr Crabs.
Wasn’t it the Saudi funded radicalist Islam sect that were behind the attacks?
The Bin Laden family is a rich Saudi family and Osama was just one member. They cannot arrest someone’s entire family for something that a random uncle did on his own
Radical Islam wasn’t behind the attacks. It was vengeance for America ruining many countries and stealing their oil. I’d suggest you read his letter. https://www.newsweek.com/osama-bin-laden-letter-america-transcript-full-1844662
The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq," bin Laden wrote. "This is why the American people cannot be innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
(He did use the word Jews instead of Zionists sometimes which was completely wrong and anti semitic)
Just like 7 Oct, 9/11 didn’t just happen because someone picked up a Quran and disliked “freedom” as much as the American government likes people to believe so
The civilians of Saudi are Muslims but their government (the Saud family) are not that interested religious. They just wanna make bank selling oil. Problem is that if they go too much against the will of their population they risk a coup.
MBS still wants to recognize israel in order to make more oil money, but if he does so now without the Palestinians getting any rights back in return, his population (and worst case the military) will turn against him because he’s just a greedy POS without any morals. Last thing he wants is a coup.
Only group doing that are iran proxies or Hamas affiliated terrorists.
A witness told the Euro-Med monitor, “Thirteen persons were shot dead and several more were critically injured. The Israeli soldiers later threw shells at the women, who were being held in one of the rooms.” Euro-Med Monitor also recorded a rise in field executions following reports of attacks on Israeli military vehicles by Palestinian factions. This suggests that the crimes being reported are part of Israel’s unlawful retaliatory policy against Palestinian civilians, which is in violation of international humanitarian law.
Last month when Hamas terrorists were alleged to be doing the same, according to IDF, American diplomats were pressuring other countries to stop crying fro human rights and just condemn Hamas.
Can we start condemning IDF as a terrorist and genocider organization under control of a rogue government lead by a tyrant now? Just a little bit, please? We will condemn Hamas again, too, if it matters.
We will condemn Hamas again, too, if it matters.
Spoiler: it never mattered.
Are organizations keeping track of those responsible for war crime trials? I would love to see a list of those responsible, from the lowest ranks to the highest.
I know of this one: https://www.commondreams.org/news/icc-israel
Please provide corroborating story link from a credible source. I will have to remove if the story link can’t be updated to a more reputable source.
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It was showing as middle of the road for the credibility rating, which on its own is shaky but with a corroborating report strengthens it.
IIRC it’s considered middle of the road due to political leanings rather than the actual credibility of the reporting.
Which, tbh, is sort of concerning when evaluating credibility because political leanings do not change whether a report is factual or not.
It was already removed by a mod and then restored. But yeah, no problem, I will find a better link and switch it now.
WSWS isn’t a great source because it’s based on a cause.
However, here’s the report.
It’s uh… Not good.
At what point does the Foreign Assistance Act’s ban on sending aid to countries in violation of human rights standards come into play? It seems like we’re getting a report on a new war crime every few days, which is a breathtaking rate for a professional Army.
Genocide Joe removed any restriction of human rights violations on the aid for israel so until you vote him out
Oh yes because Trump would use our forces to do it instead.
Look, don’t counter with 3rd party. That’s literally throwing your vote away.
Biden is the only way to beat Trump. There are backwards racists in the Democrats too. You’re not going to get support for anything than an old white guy until at least 2028…
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If anyone is still wondering why Hamas and other resistance factions are fighting, this is what happens when the IDF wins.
No, this is what happens when you give them an excuse.
First of all, Hamas is a terrorist organization and I fully support Israel in removing it. It definitely is not a resistance group.
However, Israel has to change the way they approach the problem. Especially limiting shenanigans like this one and using stupid bombs.
Zionism is a mental illness at this point.
Based on your comment, can I ask what would be your solution the whole Palestine-Israel conflict?
I’m not the person you’re talking to but as far as i can see the only way to go is one state solution.
Trials in the Hague followed by imprisonment of all those guilty of war crimes. At this point that Includes most IDF members, their leaders, and the government.
Actually bring consequences to bear and let other Israelis know that this isn’t acceptable. Israel also needs to be cut off from the teat of the American military industrial complex.
Same standards for Hamas, but that’s a much smaller number.
Any further sabre rattling is met with quick and strong sanctions.
Basically the UN needs to do it’s job, but that needs America not to veto.
The constant attacks against Israel and it’s increasing isolation only probs Zionists right. Jews can only trust themselves for their own defense and need a state for that (that’s what Zionism is). People like you feed Zionism everyday.
You’re conflating Jews with an extremist ideology that can only seem to exist through apartheid.
You mean like how Israel should stop supporting terrorists like Hamas then using them as an excuse to commit genocide?
Of course, Israel supporting Hamas was a dirty move and it was one of Israel biggest mistakes. There is no way to excuse that.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about though, this is an often repeated talking point which comes from pretty much nothing, do you have any evidence for it or did you half read a headline in a meme post without realising the argument being made is ‘by allowing aid into Gaza it’s proping up Hamas’ because that’s where that ‘funding Hamas’ line actually comes from.
Israel don’t let enough aid through and they’re the bad guys, they let aid through and they’re the bad guys - they don’t have a cease fire and they’re the bad guys, or they have a cease fire and fail to totally remove Hamas so again they’re the bad guys…
Iran funds Hamas and sturs up trouble as a way of maintaining support at home and due to their fanatical religious ideals -that bit isn’t even sightly complicated, you don’t need conspiracy theories
Get fucked shitbag
Executions ≠ shenanigans. Are you fucking kidding?
Edit: typo
Dang, so the IDF gets your blessing even though they’re killing 10x as many civilians as a terrorist organization?
Even though they’re killing more civilians than Russia?
Those darn Israelis and their ethnic cleansing shenanigans.
Was Native American raids on “Settlements” terrorism? Was Nat Turner’s rebellion terrorism?
Hamas is evil and the acts they have done are evil. But they weren’t created in a vacuum. Peace and a one or two state solution needs to be agreed apone by all with a right to self determination for the cycle of evil to stop.
Ones terrorist group is another’s resistance heroes. Which is which very much depends on the side you’re sitting at.
Hamas is indeed a terror group and should be removed but it’s hard not to see your bias. In sheer numbers, the IDF has killed multiples of what Hamas killed, in cruelty they’re really the same, and Hamas has the “excuse” of 70 years or so of oppression, murder, theft, etc by the Israeli side, the IDF doesn’t have that excuse.
The IDF is a terrorist organisation too and the only difference is that the IDF is state sanctioned and managed, whereas Hamas is not.
You, however, call what is starting to look like a genocide “shenanigans” that should be better managed whereas you outright call Hamas a terrorist group. Bias much?
When IDF wins? They could have done this years ago with Hamas started their raine of terror over Israel following Israel trying to do a good will gesture in Gaza. Instead Israel agreed to ceasefire after ceasfire that Hamas continously broke with thousands of rockets fired at civilians. This last massacre by Hamas was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back.
You know why Hamas are fighting? Because their goal is to murder every jew they can. They don’t want peace, they want blood.
Calling Hamas a resistance faction is like calling the Klan an equal rights organization.
When mass demonstrations break out under your rule under the tag “Bedna Na3iish!”, or, “WE WANT TO LIVE!”, you are not an organization acting in the interests of those people.
These monsters are literally the ones who caused the Arab Spring remix of “I can’t breathe!” to happen, calling them the resistance to Israel instead of the equal partner to the oppression of the Palestinian people they are is offensive to the nth degree and reeks of redwashed white savior westsplaining.
Is it possible for you to argue without analogies? They’re never a 1:1 representation of the situation at hand. All they do is serve to distract from the conversation by making people debate the accuracy of the analogy.
I bet you’d call the Viet Cong terrorists during the Vietnam war too lol.
This is similar to that in some regards too; similar guerilla tactics, and they’re also fighting to drive away an occupying force and reunify their country.
Their attack on Oct 7 was brutal, but it’s nothing compared to the shit Israel has been repeatedly doing for the last half century.
Was Native American raids on “Settlements” terrorism? Was Nat Turner’s rebellion terrorism?
Hamas is evil and the acts they have done are evil. But they weren’t created in a vacuum. Peace and a one or two state solution needs to be agreed apone by all with a right to self determination for the cycle of evil to stop.
Native American militias didn’t brutalise Native Americans, much unlike Hamas does to Palestinians.
This is simply not true. Plenty of natives fought against other natives, whether independently, or with US troops, or for bounties.
Those were generally clashes between different tribes. Hamas is doing internal political oppression, brutalising political opponents etc.
Do you like this group of people? If yes, freedom fighters; if not, terrorists
Do you like this state? If yes, government; if not, regime.
Fuck Hamas. They are not “resisting”, they killed innocent civilians, women and children, and don’t give a flying fuck about the Palestinian civilians either (cf Moussa Abu Marzouk’s declaration that they are not responsible for defending the civilians in Gaza). They are a creation of the Israeli apartheid regime’s own making when they were hoping to destroy the credibility of the PA, to perpetuate their colonialist narrative. Hamas and the Israeli apartheid are two sides of the same brutal, inhuman coin. Fuck Hamas as much as the Likud and the ultranationalist Israeli right to the seventh pit of hell.
It’s hard to not let your emotions take over, but Hamas only exists because of the hatred of Israel.
Hamas exists because Israel doesn’t want Palestines to exist.
Terrorist organisation typically don’t continue to exist for extended periods of time without external assistance.
That’s what I said:
They are a creation of the Israeli apartheid regime’s own making when they were hoping to destroy the credibility of the PA, to perpetuate their colonialist narrative. Hamas and the Israeli apartheid are two sides of the same brutal, inhuman coin.
This is silly, not mentioning Iran as the actual people training and funding Hamas is either very deceptive or evidence you have no idea about anything happening in the middle East.
Also acting like Hamas are the only terrorist organisation in the middle East and a total novelty is absolutely absurd, when people call them freedom fighters without any reference to what they’re actually saying they’re fighting for is again totally deceptive or from a total lack of understanding - they don’t want freedom they want a theocratic dictatorship and death to all non Muslims.
That’s not too say everything Israel have done of good or moral but painting Hamas as innocent people just fighting for their freedom is laughable
on the radio I heard two scholars discussing recent polls that reveal a surprisingly strong level of support for Hamas among gazans even now, despite the level of backlash that has resulted. when asked why, they said that Palestinians have long given up any hope that negotiations could achieve their goal of freedom and independence. they said that since negotiating has clearly failed for decades, Palestinians feel that the only remaining option Israel has left them is aggression and violence. and Hamas is the leadership that is willing to resort to violence.
while I certainly feel awful about any innocent Israelis getting caught up in the original attack, I can’t help but feel like Israel has done this to themselves. they have caged an entire group like wild animals for decades and somehow have the audacity to blame them for lashing out.
but let’s be honest here. we have all heard these points and most of us have already made up our minds about it.
on the radio I heard two scholars discussing recent polls that reveal a surprisingly strong level of support for Hamas among gazans even now, despite the level of backlash that has resulted
That’s what trauma does to you. Initially, support for Hamas had dwindled before October 7th, but after you literally drop bombs and bombs on people until they have to carry whatever is left of their children in blankets and plastic bags, well…
The actual report from the United Nations.
It just says allegations, and it calls on the IDF to investigate.
Of course the IDF should investigate itself. I’m sure they are completely unbiased.
Clearly you’re right. But the UN report did not say what the article said it said. Which means it’s biased reporting.
At this point, with the US influence on UN reporting bodies, I believe independent reporters over UN reports concerning the atrocities committed upon the Palestinian people.
And that’s totally fair. And probably correct. But this article says the UN says something that the UN is not saying. Which means it’s a bad article
It doesn’t though. Only the headline does that. That’s not good, but the article itself is not bad because of its headline.
If the majority of people only read the title, poisoning the title is effectively making the article bad. Even if the article itself is sufficiently conditioned.
So I will stand by my conviction that this is a bad article for this community.
The article prefaces every item with the word “alleged” or “alleges”, just like the report. How is this biased?
Because that word is not in the title
What are you expecting from “World Socialist Website”? Fact-based reporting? I don’t think so.
I would like the articles referenced here in this community to be fact-based, and I would like our discussion to be based on reality. The situation is bad enough as it is without having to make things up
While I see what you mean by that, is the title being “biased” equal to the article being biased? Seems like all doubts are resolved upon reading the first paragraph.
For a site calling itself “socialist”, it sure is scared of unabashedly calling out an apartheid ethnostate.
It really isn’t, look at the other articles on that site
What? The article says exactly what the report says. ‘Allege’ is legal shorthand for ‘we say this is true’
The title does not say allege. The title says something very different
No, the title says precisely the same thing. To ‘report’ something to be true is the same as to ‘allege’ something to be true.
To report something is to make a finding. You may have an interesting definition of report, but the common usage is about findings. The UN did not make a finding that Israel committed a mass killing. The implication of the title is the UN made a determination which it did not do.
The UN is calling on Israel to investigate an allegation but it did not make a finding.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/report
- To return or present as the result of an examination or consideration of any matter officially referred.
I think we’ve moved out of ‘not understanding’ and into the realm of ‘you don’t want to believe and you also don’t want others to’ territory.
Which would be fine if you were more honest about it. Have a nice day.
Thanks for sharing
We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong
The UN added, “While in control of the building and the civilians sheltering there, the IDF allegedly separated the men from the women and children, and then shot and killed at least 11 of the men, mostly aged in their late 20’s and early 30’s, in front of their family members.” The UN continued, “The IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room, reportedly seriously injuring some of them, including an infant and a child. OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awda building.”
Funny, how you alter the source to make it seem more clear than it is. So here is the part you altered, as reported by the OHCHR:
‘OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification.’
Just so you’re clear, the person you replied to directly quoted the article word for word
The articles miss quoted then, and should therefore should be considered heavily biased.
Cool. But you went full tilt accusation at that guy. Like FULL tilt. Just trying to throw some humble your way.
Maybe he should double check if the source he quotes is trustworthy. BTW: he hasn’t corrected his made-up quote.
There was no made-up quote. The quote was from the article, which left the end off a sentence, saying that the circumstances are under investigation, although the killings have been confirmed. So we have survivors accusing the IDF of slaughtering these people and we have the bodies, but it has not definitively been proven that the people were killed in the way the survivors claim. People can make of that what they will. I’m not trying to twist anything.
Here is the report (PDF):
The correct way to to cite it would be: ‘OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding […].’
Its simply wrong to not do it. Especially cutting of the sentence at a ‘,’.
And the last time a crime against humanity was still under investigation – where it was obvious that a rocket hit a hospital, but the exact circumstances where still unclear – it was later confirmed that Hamas hit the hospital.
ESH
That’s to the unwavering diplomatic cover and military help of the US, it’s no surprise the far-right racists who are the elected government of Israel are turning the Gaza ghetto into a concentration camp, complete with mass executions.
I mean, even those who dispute them being actual Fascists, can hardly claim to be surprised that a racist ultra-nationalist government whose leader already tried to take over the Judiciary, engaged in an anti-insurgency operation in an occupied territory populated by people from a different etnicity who they call “human animals” and were they’ve already killed tens of thousands - more than 40% of which children - would end up doing mass executions. I mean, these are people who have more than once said they need a Final Solution for Gaza. The only surprising thing here is that they’re still using bullets for it rather than cheaper methods of bulk killing.
The entirelly predictable consequence of the US veto at the UN was exactly to embolden their favorite Fascists to be ever more Fascist, since it made clear to them that the US would always have their back no matter what and any “words of condemnation” by the US Administration were nothing more than hot air.
Make All Gaza Auschwitz hats still available.
“Make Auschwitz Happen Again”
That slogan requires new hats to be made.
Israel is worse than Russia, at least going by the numbers.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years.
To be fair though, the Russian army is a joke, and say what you want about the IDF, they’re good at their job. Their job is to mostly murder innocent civilians, and they’re quite good at that, much more efficient than the Russian army
Well they’ve been trained well
Yeah, but that’s what we know of. It’s suspected that there’s a record breaking (for modern Europe) mass grave outside Mariupol. I doubt the numbers will get as high as the IDFs, but we can’t get any independent journalists or investigators past Russia’s front line from my understanding.
Also, like the other guy said, that fight is a bad professional army vs a better smaller professional army.
The IDF vs Hamas is an okay but cruel professional army against a relatively bad terrorist organization.
The IDF vs Hamas is an okay but cruel professional army against a relatively bad terrorist organization.
IDF was literally created by combining terrorist organizations, Haganah and Irgun being the big ones. So, unless the militant wing of Hamas is the cruel, professional Army, it’s terrorists vs. terrorists.
This opinion makes no sense to me. The US Army was also formed during a terrorist action, so was the Russian red army. We wouldn’t have called the Russian red army in WW2 a terrorist organization, and we certainly wouldn’t call the US military a terrorist organization. We could call them cruel or bad or whatever based on personal opinions, but we wouldn’t call them terrorist organizations.
For a more extreme example, the Nazi military was far far worse than Hamas or the IDF and I still would call them a professional military. They were still state sanctioned, trained to a specific common standard, paid a wage, internationally recognized as a military force, etc. etc.
“Okay but cruel” seems like a weird way to say bad
“Okay” means they are not as cool as they think. A good professional army would wipe its arse with them. Naturally Hamas is not that, nor anything threatening them.
Does not surprise me. A military force that stoops so low that they kill white flag wielding civilians in cold blood has already reached rock bottom.
