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The comparison with the Nazis doesn’t help anything and just makes the discussion a quagmire of historical misanalogies.There are dozens of other cruel and horrible examples from history to compare with, pick another one that does not specifically trigger Jewish sensibilities.
Hell, if you absolutely need to use Germany as an example, use what they did in WW1 in Belgium.
I understand it hurts, but the ethno-state is the common dream of Hitler and Israel. Facts are facts.
There are Jewish scholars and activists comparing contemporary treatment of Palestinians by Israel with nazism. Are they allowed to make comparisons that trigger Jewish sensibilities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
Finkelstein was born to parents who are both Jewish Holocaust survivors in New York City in 1953 (…) Finkelstein has called Israel the “Jewish supremacist state”, and views it as committing the crime of apartheid against the Palestinian people.[5] Through personal accounts in one of his books, he compares the plight of the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation with the horrors of the Nazis.[6]
Did I ban anyone from saying anything? Do what you will. FFS.
All I’m saying is that by picking that rhetorical terrain, you’re choosing to play the game on Israel’s terms and you open up the door to being accused of antisemitism and then you’re having that discussion. It’s a pointless distraction from what they are actually doing.
Any Government that prevents access to food, medicine and potable water to a population of their people they feel are undesirable, has racially coded check points, and white-only roads absolutely deserves to be compared to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, or the Confederate states. That government also deserves to share the same fates as those other governments.
Never Again means Never Again without any qualifications.
Early Israeli zionists tried a few times to ally with the Nazis.
there were no israeli zionists at the time, I’d say just zionists. please correct me if I’m wrong
They were Israelis after the war though, and they lived the rest of their lives as Israelis, so it make sense to refer to them as such.
And y’know they considered themselves Israeli before the state even re-existed.
Fun fact: even Zionists called it Palestine before they changed the name.
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Weird that open Jew-hatred like this is tolerated here
Criticism of Israel ≠ Jew hatred.
Unless you mean to say that, for example, every Jew in JVP is committing Jew Hatred on a daily basis.
why do you mock jews accent then?
Nope, just the people who use KHAMAS to differentiate themselves from the rest, it’s a signal.
who are the rest? what signal?
I’m sorry, you didn’t notice how a number of people with British accents or who are from America just go out and say KHAMAS. Like, are you kidding me? Do you say “KHELICOPTER”? Hamas’ name in English follows the Arabic tradition of ح (ḥā) sound being turned into the “h” letter in English and pronounced like a normal h, and yes, it’s normal to say “Khamas” if your mother tongue is modern Hebrew, but I think you aew still oblivious to the fact that Israeli propaganda wants to “other” Palestinians (by calling them “Arabs”, for example). In this case, it’s by deliberately mispronouncing the English name of “Hamas” (any person interested enough in a thing usually learns to pronounce it correctly, lots of people in the UN said “Hamas” regardless of their mother tongue when they spoke proper English) but Israeli officials want to degrade Hamas, make Hamas sound bad through and through, and often when you hear KHAMAS, you also hear “KHAMAS ISIS” even though no self respecting expert would make such a comparison. But that all starts to look terrible when you realize that Hamas in Israel means all of the Gazan government. The IDF has bombed governmental buildings, stopped all social work, and obstructed police that were trying to rescue people from under the rubble because those police are “KHAMAS”. Any social worker or nurse at a public hospital is KHAMAS. etc.
So when I say KHAMAS, please don’t think of me mocking a Jewish Israeli speaking on the news about the atrocity their witnessed on October 7th. Instead, think of [this man who’s quite a piece of work] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPnI6jD-k8I)
Israel is an ethno-state, people fighting on behalf of Israel want to eradicate Palestinian people. This doesn’t have anything to do with Jewish people in general. To conflate Israel with Jewish people is itself antisemitic.
You’re all over this thread defending Israel and now you’re equating Jewish people with the Israeli government. Bad faith arguing.
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Bad faith is trying to pretend that antizionism in 2023 is different to antisemitism.
This argument is bad faith. Or you’re just plain wrong. You can pick.
Removed. Antizionism and antisemitism are NOT the same thing. Being against the political policies of Israel is NOT the same as hating a people in general.
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Just because you’re not intelligent enough to discern the clear difference between unsubstantiated hate against an ethnic group based on nothing bit their ethnicity and very real and justified hate against a genocidal, apartheid government hell bent on actually ethnically cleansing their neighbors and stealing their land doesn’t mean that others can’t tell the difference.
Equating all Jews with the monsters committing genocide is… What’s that word again? Oh, antisemitic, right. People simp for Israel so hard they become actual antisemites.
History is tolerated. And I’m talking about Israel no Jews. Maybe another few years back to school could help?
Israel, the Jewish state created after the Holocaust, and in which half of all Jews live, you mean?
Yes. People don’t like the extremist and murderous policies of that state under Netanyahu. While antisemitism is still a problem worldwide, objecting to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is not in itself antisemitism. The accusation of antisemitism has been used politically to deflect criticism of these policies.
And of course such criticism doesn’t mean people like Hamas either. That’s another accusation that has been trotted out to deflect criticism.
I don’t like Netanyahu’s extremist policies either.
Referring to “Zionists” as ‘Nazis’ is nevertheless antisemitic. Zionism is simply the belief in the right of self-determination of the Jewish people to a state of Israel in their historic homeland. It was created through international law by partition, just as many others were, but is unique in having its right to exist questioned.
If you don’t like the people in charge, that’s fine. That’s not anti-Zionist. Claiming that Israel has no right to exist, that it should be destroyed and the Jews either dispersed or killed (by one means or another; this is also the inevitable outcome of a one-state ‘solution’), is antisemitic.
I’d like to offer some corrections and clarifications.
First, you are absolutely 100% right that Zionism is much bigger than just “Let’s go genocide”. The usage of Zionism today seems very muddied and strange, especially by non-Jews.
Zionism is actually even more expansive than you describe here though: it’s simply the belief in the right of the Jewish people to a state. A lot of 19th century Zionists actually wanted to buy land in Africa to start a Jewish state to sidestep the thorny mess that is politics in the holy land. They lost out to Herzl in the first Zionist Congress though.
Secondarily, I completely agree that anti-zionism based on Jewish dispersal is exactly identical to Palestinian genocide, just reversed. There are one-state proposals that could work if the crazy religious nutjobs weren’t in power in Israel and Gaza, working hand in glove to maintain power by mutual terror.
I think when people that aren’t fully aware of the ideologies are hating on Zionism, what they’re actually against is Kahanism, they just don’t know the terminology.
Do you think your definition of Zionism matches what others believe about Zionism? Do you think your definition is the one applied today? Seems like most Zionists policies are racist towards Palestinians.
I mean even the definition they gave is problematic. Palestine is a place full of ethnic and religious diversity. Privileging one part of the population necessitates the disenfranchisement of others. That’s what all expressions of Zionism entail.
Arguing that there’s only one definition of Zionism or that yours is the correct one is disingenuous at best and antisemitic at worst. I personally prefer to just believe you’re uninformed given your inability to cite a source that supports your claims.
Additionally, Israel is by no means unique in having its right to exist questioned. I’m not sure where that particular bullshit talking point came from but it’s sort of racist? Ukraine, for example, is waging a war for its right to exist in the face of Putin trying to restore the USSR. Georgia too. Maduro recently said Venezuela should just conquer Guyana. Taiwan has been under threat from mainland China for its entire existence, itself having a pretty similar story to Israel where an outside group moved in (Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang), who proceeded to control the indigenous population (who had already been through many rounds of occupation).
Finally, you’re making a huge leap when you claim that people calling out the self-proclaimed Zionists controlling the government of Israel for committing war crimes equates to calling for the death of all Israelis and all Jewish peoples. Anyone can criticize the Israeli government, doing so is neither antisemitic nor is it wishing death on anyone.
That’s a good clarification. I wonder how often, when people endorse statements like that, they simply don’t understand that Zionism embraces a lot more than Israel’s far right wing or think through the implications. Sometimes, for sure, it’s a deliberate style of messaging from antisemites.
For 75 years of history, Zionism had been killing Palestinians, it doesn’t matter who is in government, seemingly.
Exactly, the state who does not represent all Jews. That one.
No israel the Nazi state in which the Zionist Nazis live.
The Jews live elsewhere.
Zionist Nazis
Again, this is antisemitic.
Again, how?
You need a good dictionary my friend.
Hi, I’m a Jew. I also absolutely hate Netanyahu and the entire disgusting coalition of Likud, Tkuma, Otzma Yehudit and all their Kahanist allies.
It’s not anti-semitic to hate the government of the state of Israel, as much as they might like to pretend that the terms are synonymous.
What does this have to do with his comment comparing Israel to Nazis and Netanyahu to Hitler?
Not all Germans (probably not even most) supported the National Socialists, but when the ones that didn’t were too cowardly to fight them getting into power, they all get painted with the same brush in the end. Germany as a whole was making reparations for WW2, and the civilian population bore it’s own level of blame for letting that happen in their country.
Ah. Yeah, unfortunately the same is about to happen to the Gazans because of their choice to elect Hamas. There’s going to need to be a comprehensive process of Denazification there, as well as a Marshall Plan to rebuild the strip.
So you can see it there. And Israelis elected the extremist Netanyahu, which can colour people’s perception of them too.
Netanyahu directly supported Hamas. He wants them in charge because it gives him cover for his genocidal/colonial policies.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Honest question: as the Nazis were an explicitly Christian group, does hating the Nazi ideology make you anti-Christian?
Obviously criticism of the current Israeli government is 100% valid because they suck. And criticizing it is definitely not anti-semitic.
However, is calling for the destruction of Israel anti-semitic? Is calling for the destruction of all Muslim states Islamophobic?
Yes and yes, imho. The only humane way forward is an end to the killing on both sides and a diplomatic solution. Whether that’s a one, two or five state solution doesn’t matter to me, that’s up to the people negotiating.
That diplomacy and negotiation feels a very long way away at the moment though.
Zionism is the new Nazism.
Treat Zionists as you would Nazis.
Hamas has thousands of “command centers” it being a very top heavy organization and all. Its estimated for every Hamas soldier there’s 10,000 managers - many of them women and toddlers - unanimously authorizing every war crime committed by Hamas.
im stealing this and putting it on twitter
The director of a Gaza hospital admitted to Israeli interrogators that he had been recruited by Hamas to help turn the Strip’s medical centers into military facilities, the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) announced on Tuesday.
In a video released by the Shin Bet, Ahmed Kahlot, director of the Kamal Adwan Hospital in the northern Gaza Strip, said, “I was recruited to Hamas in 2010 at the rank of lieutenant colonel. There are employees in the hospital who are military operatives of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam [Hamas’s “military branch”]—doctors, brothers, paramedics, clerks, staff members.”
Kahlot added, “They hide in hospitals because they believe that a hospital is a safe place. They will not be harmed if they are inside a hospital.”
Israel security forces arrested Kahlot on Dec. 12.
During the interrogation, Kahlot describes how Hamas used hospitals and ambulances to hide operatives, launch military activity, transport members of terror squads and even deliver a kidnapped Israeli soldier.
“Hamas has offices inside the hospitals. There are places for senior officials, they also brought a kidnapped soldier there. There is a designated place for investigations, internal security and special security. They all have private phone lines inside the hospital,” he said.
Regarding the kidnapped soldier, Kahlot explained that “Hamas uses private ambulances. It has a different color, and no license plate. It was used to bring the kidnapped soldier and to transfer bodies. It comes and goes and does not take down the wounded.”
Kahlot told the interrogator: “Once I begged them to take a wounded man to the Indonesian hospital, for healing, for treatment. They refused. Their mission is more important.”
Hamas’s leaders, he continued, “are cowards. They left us in the field while they hide…. They destroyed us.”
Palestinian doctors are not trustworthy because many of them are members of the Hamas terrorist organisation.
This one is the same that soon after said also that confessions were extorted with tortures? Ot he was another one? Hard to keep count given how the IDF is brutalizing medical stuff all over Palestine…
Yes yes it was just torture. Of course, very good faith lmao
If the IDF arrests civilians without disclosing their location to their families or the local authorities or the press, then they can’t expect anyone to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of those prisoners is credible.
Zero photo or video evidence of the “command center” only a testimony of a guy that the IDF 100% tortured which they are known for. Totally not suspicious.
The IDF terrorists kidnapping a hospital director and torturing him into a forced confession is basically expected of them now. Scum of the earth
Why do you hate Jews (the “Scum of the earth” you’re referring to) so much that you think they’d torture someone without having ANY evidence of this?
https://www.btselem.org/torture
Yeah dude, totally no evidence Israel uses brutal torture techniques
Looks like they were talking about the IDF specifically. Honest mistake, I’m sure.
The subtext of your message under the context of this thread: “Shooting at civilians is ok, actually”. Thank you for further pushing the world into barbarism with this disgusting shit.
The ‘subtext’ of his message is actually pretty clear, no need to make up something yourself…
Palestinian doctors are not trustworthy because many of them are members of the Hamas terrorist organisation.
So you mean you cannot trust ANY Palestinian doctors? Is that your claim?
Nope. but you can’t blindly trust them either, as many of them support or are part of a widely recognized terror organization.
Israel has very good intelligence agencies, they are the ones that can most likely figure out which ones are trustworthy and which are terrorists.
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I guess you can’t trust me either? I’m not a doctor but I’m Palestinian.
Oh my god, you guys love stuffing words into my mouth. When the fuck did I say anything remotely close to that?
I’m just asking, didn’t stuff crap into your mouth.
I’m a random Palestinian on the internet. Do you distrust me?
Hostages in Gaza killed by Israeli military while carrying white flag
Two Christian women killed by IDF sniper fire, says Latin Patriarchate
UN calls for probe as Israeli army accused of killing unarmed Palestinians
All of these are from the LAST WEEK. Putting so much effort to put into question trust towards doctors because they’re denouncing crimes against civilians, just everyone else is denouncing from Gaza right now only serves to muddy the waters in the middle of a genocide.
In a normal war, about 90% of all deaths are civilians, according to the UN last year.
The number of civilian deaths in Gaza is at maximum 60%, but likely significantly lower given Hamas tend to overcount and also methodologically don’t distinguish between civilians and Hamas terrorists, of which the IDF claim to have killed more than 8,000.
It’s not a genocide. Glad to clear that up for you.
The number of civilian deaths in Gaza is at maximum 60%, but likely significantly lower
What’s your source for that figure?
The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.
Wow, if only you could read…
Does the IDF have any proof that 8 thousand dead civilians are actually KHHHHHAMAS?
You’re sick in the head. Stop denying genocide
So wait…are you saying we’re supposed to discard this doctor’s account because he’s a member of Hamas? Wouldn’t that mean then that the evidence you shared is untrustworthy and therefore your entire comment is a self-contradiction?
The claims relate to an eight-day operation by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) at the Kamal Adwan Hospital last week, which the military alleges was being used as a command and control center by Hamas.
Ohh another command and control center, the beating heart of Hamas operation.
If you guys don’t feel good, be sure to visit your local Hamas command and control center.
Joke aside, the whole article is disturbing as fuck.
There is also terrible footage of this https://youtu.be/g5OcE8JqkZM?feature=shared
Ohh another command and control center, the beating heart of Hamas operation.
It’s not remotely surprising. Hamas run the entire Gaza Strip and have done for 17 years. Many of the doctors in these hospitals are also members of Hamas, including their militant wing, and are themselves responsible for terrorism. There’s no layer of civil infrastructure that has not been infected by Hamas’ poison.
Source: trust me bro?
Sorry, can you point me to the specific part of that article that says many of the doctors are Hamas? Because what I read is this:
In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.
“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”
The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, which found Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope people would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration, which is facing global criticism and isolation for vetoing a UN security council vote for a ceasefire on Friday.
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What do you mean “isn’t that much greater”? The Haaretz study shows a civilian death rate of around 61%, whereas prior conflicts in Gaza had a civilian death rate of 33% to 40%, and the article says the 61% level is unprecedented. A 20%-30% increase is an insane number of additional dead.
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It’s a 20% increase and 10% of the total, which is massive.
50% to 60% is an increase of 20% which is pretty large.
I don’t understand why people believe them.
When Russia bombed civilian churches, apartments, hospitals, and said they were being used as military command centers and such, nobody believed them, it was an obvious lie.
But when Israel says it the whole world just says “Wow makes perfect sense, good job!”
Why do you compare Israel to Russia? Russia attacked Ukraine. Palestine (Gaza/Hamas) attacked Israel. 2.000 israelis kidnapped or killed. Not telling you to compare Israel to Ukraine, just reminding you that the situations cannot be compared
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Didn’t know Ukraine mass raped civilians
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As much evidence Ukraine does as there is Palestine does.
There’s literally tons of recordings from Hamas themselves, including the parading of Shani Louk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAkSPgSprIE
Not that it matter; “some of them are rapists” is not a defense to genocide.
What Genocide? https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/ Use the correct terms please.
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