Tbf extremism itself isn’t wrong. Any perspective can be considered extreme if it is too different from the status quo. Different isn’t necessarily bad.
Granted religious extremism is typically far right reactionary ideology which is bad so I’m not really defending it. However, I find that a lot of people, especially Americans, call anything that radically challenges the current system extreme and therefore bad.
You are half right but I understand where you are coming from, you see extremism as what the bigots tell you it is (feminism, LGBT+, etc). But I in fact thing that taking an idea and turning the notch to a 100 always turns it bad, for example: Feminism turns into misandry when turn to the extreme, right wing turns into facism, black right movements can turn into black power, religion turns into cults, etc.
But I agree that there are some cases in where this does not apply like gender equality (but thought I don’t know how that works tho).
This is an aspect of horseshoe theory which is pretty meh tbh. Could you not say that the current status quo is extreme? It would have been considered that way by monarchists back in the day. Extremism is just radical change to the current social order which can end very well or very poorly.
Personally I think labelling ideologies as extreme is a way for those who benefit from the current social order to encourage those who don’t to dismiss radical change as dangerous and destructive rather than an opportunity for growth.
Capitalism is an extreme change when compared to feudalism but it is better no?
If you’re interested I’d really recommend reading blackshirts and reds by Michael Parenti pdf audio. it’s a relatively short read at only 154 pages but it really helped develop my views on this subject
Tbf extremism itself isn’t wrong
The same can be said about religion. Less than 20% of Americans identify as Atheist or Agnostic, the far right extremists do not have support from 80% of the population.
I wouldn’t have disagreed. I’m not against religion
Religion doesn’t hurt anyone if you accept everyone’s beliefs and don’t go too far with your religion
Sure, in the same way that not knowing how to count or add and subtract numbers doesn’t technically hurt anyone. But it sure as fuck stifles their potential in life and they would definitely be better off getting educated on the topic.
I don’t do much in my life because I believe in God…
What is “too far” though? Is raising your children to follow specific religious rules already too far? Because I think it is, but many others think that’s okay. What about expecting your surroundings to accommodate your religion? At what point exactly is that going too far?
That’s the point. They all start nice and friendly. And the more power they gain, the more hardcore it gets. The first step (joining a cult) is already “too far”
I don’t expect anyone to do stuff to accomodate my beliefs, and if I have kids, I’ll let them believe in whatever they want.
Tell me you are a Christian who is sad that people keep calling out how Christians have vitriolic hatred for their fellow man with telling me you are a Christian.
Also anyone get a strong feeling that by extremist, OP means Muslims not Christofacist in the US
- I am not a christian lol
- I mean extremism by any person who uses religion as an excuse, not any particular one
All religions are extreme.
so 80% of the population are extremists?
Is 80% religious practioners? I mean I probably show up in some statistics as protestant.
I probably show up in some statistics as protestant.
According to the guy I replied to that makes you an extremist.
If you look up “% people in (your area) religious” you’ll find roughly 80% identify as one religion or another. If religion is the problem it’s 80% of the population.
But I am not religious. So seemed not so reliable stats
You just said you were Protestant
Probably shouldn’t be fucking around with other countries either unless directly attacked.
Bu-but they need Muh freedom!!
Classic American perspective in the comments.
You know, a lot of regions have religions that aren’t cults. Also tv mega churches are not common in the old world.
What’s the difference between cult and religion? That’s basically how widespread it is.
Opinion on outsiders and interaction with outsiders as well as intrusiveness into regular life.
I am European and haven’t been to the US in over 15 years and I still firmly hold the believe that religion is cancer and every religion is a cult, especially the christian organizations both big and small.
And don’t tell me I don’t know what I am talking about.
I was raised catholic and probably know my way around the bible better than most christians.Now what?
According to the 2012 Global Religious Landscape survey by the Pew Research Center, 75.2% of the Europe residents are Christians, 18.2% are irreligious, atheist or agnostic, 5.9% are Muslims and 0.2% are Jews, 0.2% are Hindus, 0.2% are Buddhist, and 0.1% adhere to other religions.
That is quite the persecution complex you have there if you believe 80+% of the people in Europe are in a cult.
We’re using fancy words now to seem smart?
Works better if you know what they mean.And I don’t have any problem believing that vast majorities of a population can fall to a cult.
I mean in the middle ages people didn’t even have a choice about their religion and I hope you are not trying to tell me crusades and literal witch hunts are not cult behaviour.We’re using fancy words now to seem smart? Works better if you know what they mean.
Okay:
So now that we’ve gotten definitions out of the way, can we acknowledge what century we are in?
I mean in the middle ages people didn’t even have a choice about their religion and I hope you are not trying to tell me crusades and literal witch hunts are not cult behaviour.
At which point did I say 80% of Europeans are currently involved in Crusades or Literal Witch Hunts?
My point was currently, right now, 80% of the population believe in one religion or another. Support for left wing ideals, such as social programs and rights for LGBTQ+ far exceeds 20% of the population. The problem is not religion. The problem is hateful closed minded people who use religion as an excuse to be hateful and close minded.
I’m sorry, no hate or incivility intended towards you as a person, but this idea is pandering centrist bullshit.
Woah.
Centrist?
EDIT: Tried to make a joke and it seems to have missed the mark. Centrist was the least surprising thing in that comment to be shocked by, I thought, so only being shocked by that I thought would have come off as funny. Poe’s Law prevails lol
I mean, yeah. On one hand, you have pretty much all of Conservatism which is empowered largely by religious ideology, and is propelling the West full-speed towards fascism. On the other hand, you have people’s freedom to believe in an authoritarian skydaddy who gives them permission to seek dominion over other people without being challenged.
This take sits right in the middle: “Yes, extremism is largely a result of religious indoctrination, but don’t hurt people’s feelings by challenging their beliefs.”
No, sorry. Challenging people’s bullshit supernatural beliefs is very method in which we attack extremism. If those beliefs justify cruelty, there is no shame in telling a person that their beliefs are bullshit and their behavior is reprehensible.
There is also a modern definition of fascism as “Inequality through mythological and essentialized identity”. Basically you foster belief that because of some mythos you are special (gender, ethnicity, religion), and that allows you to deserve more or discriminate against the others. Religions that demand blind faith are contradict modern science more or less have to foster part of this thinking. Not that you need religion for this but it’s close. And not all extremism is fascist ofc.
Yes, because it’s basically the “hey guys, not all cops are bad” take but applied to religion.
Like yeah obviously don’t be a hateful asshole and persecute religious people, obviously, but pretending there is no value in tearing down religious structures is apathetic centrist enabling bullshit. We should shine a light wherever ignorance dwells, not turn a blind eye to it.
Every time someone uses extremist as a pejorative
Both. Both. Definitely both.
Sounds like a pretty extremist view there buddy puts on my fighting skirt
Religion is not a useful tool and it’s not good in general
Are you kidding me? Religion is supremely useful in controlling and exploiting people. It promises all of the wonderment and fantasticnous you can imagine while also promising the absolute worst nightmares you can imagine, and all you have to do is pay and pray, and the prayers are optional.
“Work in service to your masters and you will be rewarded after you’re dead. Defy your masters and you will be punished for eternity” is the perfect tool of control for the uneducated/unintelligent.
Religion is not a useful tool and it’s not good in general
People who are active in religious congregations tend to be happier and more civically engaged than either religiously unaffiliated adults or inactive members of religious groups, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of survey data from the United States and more than two dozen other countries.
That’s just saying “people who are in a social community are happier and more engaged than those that aren’t” because most social communities are currently religious focused.
Sure. Doesn’t change the fact that Religion can be used as a tool for social engagement and can have a measurable, good effect on people’s lives.
When people misuse a hammer to cause harm you don’t blame the hammer.
“guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, does that mean there should be zero regulations on guns?
Religion is the same, and historically has been the CAUSE not the TOOL for countless genocides and “justified” killings.
“guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, does that mean there should be zero regulations on guns?
Strawman. I was mentioning hammers, are there any regulations on hammers? I never once called a gun a tool.
Religion is the same, and historically has been the CAUSE not the TOOL for countless genocides and “justified” killings.
If you believe the people causing genocides wouldn’t have fun another reason to excuse them I have a bridge to sell you. The Holocaust wasn’t motivated by religion.
Yeah, I’ll give you the strawman, sorry about that. Made sense before I said it.
The Nazi belief was absolutely a religion. Not one of deity, but of superiority. A group of people held the same belief and tried to beat that belief into the whole world. TBH, sounds just like the crusades, just less successful. Thank goodness.
The Nazi belief was absolutely a religion. Not one of deity, but of superiority.
That agrees with my point that if you managed to abolish all religions people would still find excuses to perform atrocities. They’ll just do it in the name of their “superiority” instead of their “god”.
No, we should be fighting religion.
Fighting Religion on its own fixes Extremism as a biproduct and nobody can convince me otherwise.
Mussolini
Does it though? The issues that feed extremism will still be there and find a new outlet.
Ironic.
You can’t fight either directly. Fight stupdity and both go away.
I think the argument for moderation is the worst in the religious context.
Pascal was right about his Wager in one way. If god exists, it should change everything for you. Especially the christian one. Eternity in pain or pleasure outweighs everything.
If that is your reality, how is failing god moderation?
Seriously if you don’t want people to die from cancer at all, how is that not extermist?
Are reference point defines “moderation”? Look at us vs eu politics.
Even if you want to define moderation as the average or median position in a society, then Nazism can be moderation if you get enough Nazi together.
Wake up, my fellow extremist.
Pascal’s wager doesn’t even attempt to make a philosophical argument for God’s existence, and it only works if you assume a singular god. Of course in this case it’s Christianity.
So let’s say someone agrees that it’s better to worship a god on the off chance they exist than to not do so and end up in hell, now what? Where do I go from here? You’ve opened up a can of worms because now I have to decide what the logical choice is (since PW only relies purely on logic) in which god to choose.
The “logical choice” only works when you have a singular alternative, but if you have a dozen different gods to choose from then everything falls apart. The only logical thing to do is to worship the god with the worst hell, on the off chance that they are the one true God. At least you spared yourself from that.
In the end though the wager essentially only sees/works with atheism and one religion, which is why it’s so flawed. The moment you introduce multiple religions to a coin toss logic scenario it fails to work.
You typed so much and understood so little.
I don’t think pascal’s wager works. Which is why I said, I said he is right about one thing which is the infinites reward fucking up everything. IF!!! there is a god, and he rewards and punishes you like pascal believed, then everything becomes irrelevant compared to it. Failing to follow god would be an extremist action. Unacceptable due to the unmeasurable damage it would cause. Think about it, in an atheistic world, a Terror Attack is bad, like really bad, but the damage is finite. In pascal’s world, disbelief has worse consequences. The harm is bigger, to a literally infinite amount. For pascal, your disbelief should be worse than bombing a Christian church while there is a service.
You are talking about different and compatible critiques of pascal’s wager, and your condescension at the beginning of the post is unwarranted because he is correct, just not talking about the same thing you are.
In regards to the wager, the actual canonical depiction of Hell wasn’t eternal torture but instead not being allowed into God’s presence so, eh…
Miss me with turning into Fanta regardless
Which misses the point of my argument.
I don’t say you are wrong. But my point is strictly about what people believe and how these beliefs should be quite important and turn “moderation” to “extermism” from their pov.
Your assumption is that religion wants you to suffer.
Religion, in my experience, wants you to be compassionate, accepting and give back to the community. This is not extreme.
Could you show me that assumption? I don’t see that assumption present in my comment. Please help me to understand your perspective. Thanks.
Most people talk about Religions people being fanaticists with a disregard for human wellbeing. (Outside of their religion) I associate this with the sects that emigrated to America due to prosecution in Europe and American New religons. (Amish, those Utah people etc., those wierd evangelicals(?))
Of course there are also good religious groups in America.
How is that related to my comment and how does that answer my request for clarification? I am sorry but this seem completely unrelated.
Classic American perspective in the comments.
You know, a lot of regions have religions that aren’t cults. Also tv mega churches are not common in the old world.
I’m Italian.
Four years ago the DDL Zan, a law that sought to fight language and deeds that amount to religious, political and racial discrimination by adding aggravating factors for sexual orientation, gender and gender identity, was proposed.
Among its detractors, the Vatican itself, who urged Italy to stop the law because, according to them, the Law calls into question church’s ‘freedom of organisation’ and threatens ‘freedom of thought’.
While those cartoonish evil cults aren’t common, they are not the only evil religious organizations in the world. The head of one of the abrahamic religions, and one of the most popular religions in the world, fought against the freedom of my fellow LGBT+ individuals because of their supposed right of hate speech, apparently. So no, it’s not an American perspective, and yes, all religions are evil.
As an American, the churches here are pooling resources to buy politicians and hospitals in low income areas to enforce their views on abortion and gender healthcare. The church is a business and religion is the advertisement that keeps that evil funded.
I’ve never seen the amount of pro religion comments as I’ve seen in this thread. And they’re all so… coughGPTcough ….verbose.
A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
All religions are cults.
That there exist congregations that aren’t actively being taken advantage of, or doing evil shit, doesn’t mean people living their lives believing things that aren’t real and making choices based on that belief, are harmless.
You can be the kindest soul on earth, but if you believe stabbing someone in the heart helps them, you might still do it.
Believers do that type of shit all the time, like words spoken while meaning well, but doing harm. They look at reality through the distorting lens of faith, they can’t ever truly see it. There is a fatal disconnect between perception and reality.
They thank God instead of their doctor, they tell their depressed children to consult Jesus when they need medication, they feel crushed by bad luck because it can’t just be bad luck, everything is god’s plan, meaning they feel they deserve it.
Religion adds so many tiny twists to reality, and every single one hurts someone. Both the believer and those around them. If you haven’t seen it happen, you’re the exception, not the rule.
Neither, fight the conditions underlying both.
