…
His intervention comes as the presidents of Brazil, Mexico and Colombia all called on Venezuela to release the full details of last Sunday’s election.
…
It has also attracted global criticism, with many governments around the world demanding the Venezuelan government release proof of the result.
The result has been recognised by Venezuelan allies China, Russia and Iran.
But, the US, European Union and other G7 countries have called on Mr Maduro’s government to release detailed voting data.
deleted by creator
Please make your point explicit. Ronald Reagan and other right-wingers opposed the Soviet Union. Does that mean the Soviet Union should have remained intact and counter-revolutionaries in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland kept suppressed?
Sir, this is a Wendy’s in Caracas.
Ronald Reagan and other right-wingers opposed the Soviet Union. Does that mean the Soviet Union should have remained intact and counter-revolutionaries in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland kept suppressed?
Tankies like them would have loved that.
I can post pictures too
Let’s bring it full circle:
Now, you may notice that some of these people were elected, while one was not.
Ahh, the US-Russia summit in Geneva in June 2021.
U.S. President Joe Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose countries hold 90% of the world’s nuclear weapons, agreed at a June summit in Geneva to embark on an integrated bilateral ‘Strategic Stability Dialogue’ to lay the groundwork for future arms control and risk reduction measures.
Reuters - U.S. and Russia say they held ‘substantive’ arms control talks in Geneva
Simpler times.
Yeah, poutine was not.
He was elected in 2000, María Machado is a pawn.
Thank you for helping me make my point that posting a picture with politicians together is pretty meaningless. Anyone paying even the slightest attention to Venezuela knows Machado is a conservative. That doesn’t preclude the election from being rigged.
With such precedents, it is impossible to associate the image of María Corina Machado with that of a supposed positive change for Venezuela, an image she intends to present by claiming the status of an “outsider,” even though historically she has positioned herself as a political figure of the opposition establishment. The actors and influences that she promotes on Venezuelan soil come from outside the borders of the country and respond to political agendas in Florida and Washington DC. source.
Marco Rubio and Rick Scott agree with you.
Your source is bunk
And when it’s not safe for political dissidents to live in their home nation it’s not uncommon for them to be sheltered by a foreign government. Shit, the Kaiser is the one that sent Lenin back to Russia.
Dude, she has ties to Likud.
Yeah I don’t find that particularly palatable, but it’s still up to the people of Venezuela to decide who they want to lead them. This election result is a sham as far as it looks right now.
Overwhelming evidence
I wonder why he didn’t present any of it then. Looks pretty Donald Trump-like to me
Evidence was literally uploaded by the opposition, and has been analyzed by multiple news organizations already who agree with their conclusions. Not to mention the exit polls and other available public evidence.
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/masked-assailants-ransack-venezuela-opposition-134849213.html?guccounter=1
Here’s another organization that independently gathered many of the polling receipts with similar results:
The opposition leader is in hiding (who was barred by Maduro’s government for running, among many other tactics with government powers Maduro used to try to tilt the vote in his favor). Maduro has rounded up over 1000 members of the opposition already to try and prevent this data from being gathered and take more political prisoners. The Carter Center, who Maduro government themselves invited as a monitor, said that:
“Venezuela’s electoral process did not meet international standards of electoral integrity at any of its stages and violated numerous provisions of its own national laws.”
The only one fighting transparency and trying to hide results here is Maduro. These tallies were all stored on qr codes. Maduro could have released them at anytime and chose not to. Could have instantly been released the night of the election, as they were coming in if he wanted. Can’t believe people on here are still falling for this dictator’s bald faced lies.
From what I heard, the government released them on a website but it got hacked and shut down. Now he released them to the Supreme Court and invited the opposition to look at them, but they didn’t show up.
I don’t agree with them arresting opposing candidates and stuff like that, but I also don’t trust the US’s opinions on this matter. They’ve tried to coup Venezuela basically every year and every election lol. The opposition releasing their interpretation of data is like Trumps saying they should’ve won from their polling data in all the red states. Idk, it’s very easy to manipulate, especially with US help.
The government did not release them, and you’ve provided no source for your claim. Also, showing up to a courthouse as they’re all rounded up and being thrown in a jail? Give me a break. Many countries are calling for the release of the results, including leftist governments like Colombia and Brazil.
Source for what? The hack? That claim has been in Western media, too.
I don’t think he’ll arrest Gonzalez because he knows it would backfire hard on him, but he does need to stop all the rhetoric about jailing his opposition. It’s certainly not helping.
There’s nothing in the source you linked about Maduro releasing results online and some “hack” not allowing it. Maduro has not released any results.
The source you linked does report all the things I’ve said in my comment again though.
And it’s not just rhetoric, he is jailing his opposition.
Sorry, I guess I was mistaken. Looks like the story is he tried to release them but got hacked. Thanks for catching that.
Right, but because they’re protesting and rioting. Even the US has done that for less. And within the last couple months.
Their Supreme Court is very biased towards PSUV. Letting them weigh in is like letting a fox count how many eggs are in your henhouse.
Because the official evidence is held by the incumbent government. The evidence we do have access to, from extensive exit polls by neutral auditors to the mandated voting station slips (small pieces of paper that each voter is issued giving them the electronic count so far at that station) both track a 60 - 70% lead for the opposition.
In response, instead of releasing the official report, the incumbent government has brutally crushed several protests (even killing protestors), arrested the opposition, and claimed victory. Not exactly the pattern of behavior of an innocent victor.
by neutral auditors
🤣
So release the official counts and let people compare their voting slips? Don’t arrest your opposition?
If it quacks like a dictatorship and stinks like a dictatorship…
They tried and the site got hacked.
Lol sure. No other website can hold the data either, it’s gone now, like in an internet tube, vanished I say.
What an idiot lie.
Of course, there is only one available domain to do this, and that was hacked. There is no possible other way to get that data out but that one website. And it is, forever, hacked.
LOL, what a convenient excuse.
Just to clarify, the evidence provided by opposition is not from exit polls. The evidence is genuine voting receipts from the machines that are supposed to be* guaranteed to each party’s site observers
*Opposition says many of their observers were removed without being allowed access to their polling site receipts to explain why they didn’t have them all
The electronic machines provide every voter a paper receipt that shows which candidate they chose. Voters are supposed to deposit their receipts at ballot boxes before exiting the polls.
After polls close, each machine prints a tally sheet showing the candidates’ names and the votes each received. Party representatives stationed at polling sites throughout election day get a copy of the tally sheet, and electoral authorities keep another one.
Edit: Thank you so much to Kecessa for providing actually credible information - it definitely seems that there’s some election rigging going on.
For everyone who just scolded me instead of just presenting the data, that’s not helpful. When people are asking for data, just either provide that data or don’t. Your opinions hold basically zero weight.
My original comment below:
~~None of this “overwhelming evidence” has been presented to the public. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Opinion polls don’t count for shit. Show me proof of a fixed election and I’ll believe you, but right now this entire thing stinks of the US not getting to control Venezuela and being really fucking mad about it. ~~
I’m sure you’ve done tons of research into these claims and are certainly not just making a loud uninformed take
I’ve read a few articles. They’re all like, “we have sooooo much evidence that the election is rigged! Just so much!! But it goes to another school, so just trust me bro.”
I’m very happy to be proven wrong, if you have anything compelling to share, please do.
This is a story about it, I’d love to see the scans, where are they?
Edit: Never mind, another user shared the link.
Not everyone can have every expertise. You can dismiss a tally sheet written in crayon, but would you know an authentic one from a forgery? Some things have to be left to experts, like rocket scientists, nuclear engineers, and oncologists.
That is totally irrelevant. I specifically asked for the evidence, not for some journalist’s report on what some source said about how they got the evidence.
If you asked me for proof that Elon Musk tweeted something, I’d link you the tweet, not a report about how people are reacting to Elon’s tweet.
So what you are saying is that you have not been paying attention?
There’s no need to act like an asshole. I asked for proof, nothing more. Despite the dozens of people who downvoted me, only one was able to provide it, and it doesn’t show up on a Google search (due to the amount of blog spam about the topic, I suppose)
I haven’t seen that proof shared anywhere else. Have you? If so, where?
You can download the voter sheets that the opposition is presenting and investigate it yourself. Thankfully the AP already has (I trust them enough for this) and it indicates the government of Venezuela is lying
I know we’re not supposed to accuse others of being disingenuous actors on behalf of a criminal state, but it’s getting hard to believe this many supposedly well read people are so ignorant of what happened in Venezuela.
People are quite rightly skeptical of mass media narratives. If presented with actual evidence you’ll find that people are willing to believe things. 99% of the coverage of the election in Venezuela has been spin from their political enemies.
They’re not ignorant. They’re fascists cheering for their team.
Last time I heard that argument it was from coked out pillow con man
o shit nice to see you again
?
Exactly. The opposition keeps saying they have proof but not revealing it. It’s all very Trumpian. He said they have proof the election was fixed, too. I’m starting not to believe the US in this one.
I mean kinda me too…what I’m really afraid is that is foreshadowing November here
Oh damn, now you have me worried, too lol. I 100% bet Trump his team and their supporters will look to this election for lessons.
To be clear, I don’t think Maduro is a good guy at all, and he seems to be handling this terribly. But that only makes Venezuela easier to do this with, especially considering US interests in the region. (Insert Elon Musk’s “we can coup whoever we want” quote here.) Hopefully it all becomes clearer after the deadline Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia gave them to release full data and figure this out. Those 3 countries seem to be handling this the best by reaching out to both parties and handling this in a slow, calm manner. I’m trying to keep an open mind like them until then.
They don’t. And they don’t need to! Being rude at people who disagree with the US State departments official position (which is not propaganda) is good enough, because propaganda = opinions that are not in line with the US state dept.
They believe that “fact” so powerfully that theyll get angry at you and insult you. Other facts become unnecessary if the person saying them is untrustworthy. Uncomfortable truths, any thoughts about the US’s many, many efforts to control the global south may be terminated along with the messenger.
Besides people use Ad hominem because it’s just so easy
Do you read what you have written and think, “yeah, that was a reasonable take?”
People are literally pointing this person toward the information they claim doesn’t exist. A few people were abrasive about it bc it comes up under an easy search. But they’ve ignored it, double down, and been dismissive.
Say what you want about the hive mind of Lemmy but be honest about this interaction.
Nobody pointed me towards anything until now and I literally immediately said “thank you” and amended my comment.
It literally does not come up after an easy search. Someone had to directly link me to a strange website that I’ve never heard of before so I could see the proof.
And you’re scolding people for being dishonest? lol
Thank you so much for being the only person to actually deliver what I asked for instead of some bullshit sermon. This looks legit. I will amend my original comment.
I thought Venezuela hasn’t had a legitimately elected government in a very long time. Was something different this time?
Chavez won, at least, his first election fairly and in a landslide. So, it’s been up to 25 years since the last free and fair election there.
People should question the USA every time they talk about South American countries. The same as how people question China or Russia when they talk about bordering countries. Super power will do what they can to influence other countries and historical and recent events make it clear that the USA is willing to lie and defend its lies. So people have the right to not believe the USA.
Wait, do you unironically think we want to annex Mexico?
Nothing in @Doorbook@lemmy.world’s comment implied that.
Also…Why do you think so many American cities in the south west have spanish names?
Nothing in @Doorbook@lemmy.world’s comment implied that.
You are a liar.
The same as how people question China or Russia when they talk about bordering countries.
Also…Why do you think
Not everyone is as bad a student of history as your peers.
Love the whataboutism. Top notch shillwork.
It’s not whataboutism, it’s good to look at the history and motivations of anyone making claims like election fraud. US officials are saying it’s fake, the US has a long history of South American political interference, especially if there is even a hint of socialism.
So you saw Maduro’s disaggregated numbers and they check out. Share them, please, everybody else wants to see them too.
I don’t think they are staying Maduro won. Polls showed this was going to be a landslide against him. Can’t trust polls especially in a dictatorship but I think there’s something there. I know in my heart he lost.
That said, there are other regional countries which are also calling for data and are skeptical of the legitimacy.
Sure. When it’s appropriate. But it isn’t appropriate here. There are third party organizations with no love for the US also making statements about this.
We also have overwhelming evidence Blinken has supported multiple coup attempts in Venezuela throughout his career.
Downvote actual facts if you like, you’re only showing your bias.
A raging asshole who is right is still right, despite being a raging asshole.
Username checks out
Oh my what an amusing and original observation, one never before uttered in the history of the internet.
You waste your gifted prose on us my good person, please go find a country to be the Poet Laureate for, I am sure there are several waiting on your reply.
Thanks, you have a great username
Took me around four seconds to pick it.
I had intended it to be a warning so people aren’t disappointed in my sarcasm or shocked by my vitriol.
It hasn’t worked so far…
Care to share that evidence?
Absolutely, but if you were really interested in facts this information is not hard to find once you stop watching cable news……
I doubt you’ll read any of it but here is a random google search….
Details of a dozen or so coup attempts by us government
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv2tr51zb
Details of Blinken’s work history in the us government over this same period
Bias report on the jstor.org showing reporting credibility as factual and also detailing any of their bias etc
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/jstore-daily/
If you believe western media and United States governments reporting on issues in Venezuela, you’re critical thinking ability is non existent.
I’m not an expert on Venezuela, but again, western media and the USA government has zero credibility on issues concerning Venezuela.
Absolutely, but if you were really interested in facts this information is not hard to find once you stop watching cable news…… I doubt you’ll read any of it but here is a random google search….
Your snark, arrogance and cynicism are unwarranted and inappropriate.
But I do appreciate your providing some info - I was genuinely curious and didn’t quite know where to find this evidence - initial searches did not turn up the kind of “overwhelming evidence” you claimed existed. I’m not for a second disputing the USA’s involvement in coup attempts or regime change in general - I think this is quite adequately documented. But your claim was that there is “…overwhelming evidence Blinken has supported multiple coup attempts” but the best you can do is to essentially say he’s guilty of this personally because he has worked for the US government.
That’s honestly pretty weak.
lol. You’re saying that without irony.
That’s not me being arrogant, I nailed it, I just did a slam dunk in your face after I alley-ooped my own pass.
And when your audience has zero critical thinking skills it’s probably the most appropriate time for cynicism.
Yes, I hate to break it to you but folks working for the leadership in the state department and national security of the us government are complicit in US backed coup attempts.
But your attempt to straw man my evidence is a sorry attempt to deflect from the actual fact that the United States and western media completely fabricate most everything anytime they open their lips to speak on issues concerning Venezuela.
No. No you didn’t.
Ok weirdo
Do you see the vote counts? You suck here. How open minded and independently researched you clearly are.
That’s not me being arrogant, I nailed it, just did a slam dunk in your face after alley-ooped my own pass.
Not only arrogant, but cringe.
Sad to see “useful” idiots like you who probably don’t even know where Venezuela is, but as long as they are against the US they have to be good, right?
At least I’m useful. One day you’ll be there.
If you believe every protest is a CIA backed coup attempt then nobody can help you.
According to Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, only the UN Security Council has a mandate by the international community to apply sanctions (Article 41) that must be complied with by all UN member states(Article 2,2). source
Unilateral sanctions tend to destabilize economies causing protests.
This seems like it should be a response to someone else’s comment?
Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia are also asking for election data here, but you neglect to consider that.
You have this idea in your head that because you fully believe your news sources, that I am somehow in opposition to whatever your ideology on this issue is.
My goal is to point out that nothing western media or the US government has said or is saying is reliable on issues specifically concerning Venezuela, for at (the very) least the past three decades.
“I’m giving you a choice: either put on these glasses or start eatin’ that trash can.” ——-Nada, from the movie They Live.
Okay, and my point is regardless of if what you say is merited or not, Maduro can still have cheated.
Don’t distract from the issue with whatabout-ism arguments.
lol. You’re arguing that Blinken trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government in the past is a whataboutism to any discussion of Blinken trying to do it again, right now even?
It would be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic
Y’all cable news watchers use Orwellian talking points without a lick of irony. Wow
I don’t have any skin in this game, but what are the Orwellian talking points you refer to? I’m curious how this term is used and develops over time.
You’re suggesting the opposite of a thing is the thing, in this case it is Blinken having supported multiple coup attempts in Venezuela being a non relevant talking point to him currently supporting a coup in Venezuela
I would say “currently supporting another coup he supported last election” but nah, we’ve already established this is somewhere between his support of coups in Venezuela 12-15 times
Thanks for asking
Edit; it wasn’t you it was the other guy who was using the Orwellian double speak or whatever
He suggested that me mentioning blinkers previous support of coups in Venezuela during a discussion about blinkens support a a current coup attempt in Venezuela is a whataboutism or what not
If somebody losses the election and still rules, that person/party are there ones who made a coup. Opposing this statement can only mean you support any and all dictators as long as they role play as a democracy once every few years.
Ok Mr bot….
What about the election in Pakistan? That was clearly rigged yet the US never made a it a problem.
dunno, don’t speak Urdu, not close to me, don’t know anyone from there, what do observers say? It’s just really annoying for Latin Americans to see “gringos” immediately forming an opinion on something they have no idea about and making it about themselves, either to meddle or to dismiss. Listen to other countries than the US and what they are saying, preferably in the local language.
China? Russia? Iran? Where’s your office?
Did the US remove sanctions on Pakistan on condition that they run fair elections? I ask because I don’t know. What I know is that they did so with Venezuela, and yet maduro didn’t run free elections.
No the US backed a coup in Pakistan against Imrah Khan.
Imran Khan did not want to get involved in the Russia-Ukraine war and the US wanted a Pakistani president who picked their side.
Then why would the US be as interested in the fairness of the election.
The fairness of the venezuelan one was literally a condition of the deal.
Which deal?
The US lifted sanctions in exchange of Venezuela having fair elections. That was the deal.
If Maduro had acted like a good suckup dictator, all of this would be declared “internal matter of Venzuela” and Blinken would have moved on lol.
But no, he had to refuse the US’s foreign demands like he has sovereignty or something. Now we actually have to coup him for real this time, and make it look like we upgraded the democracy while doing it.
spoiler
But seriously rip Imran Khan. Pakistan had one big chance to save itself and it took the army like 5 seconds and a tiny IMF loan from the USA to burn it all down.
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Beep boop. This action was performed automatically. If you dont like me then please block me.💔
If you have any questions or comments about me, you can make a post to LW Support lemmy community.Maybe America should stop genociding Palestinians before trying to act like some kind of moral authority on other countries.
Rule 5.
Prominent journalist and Russia expert Peter Pomerantsev believes Russia’s efforts are aimed at confusing the audience, rather than convincing it. He states that they cannot censor information but can "trash it”
The effect created by such Internet trolls is not very big, but they manage to make certain forums meaningless because people stop commenting on the articles when these trolls sit there and constantly create an aggressive, hostile atmosphere toward those whom they don’t like. The trolls react to certain news with torrents of mud and abuse. This makes it meaningless for a reasonable person to comment on anything there.
Fuckin spot on
I would replace “torrent of mud and abuse” with “torrent of mud and hostile opinions presented in the most argumentative possible way”, but yes pretty much
Look around this comment section, and then come back and reflect on that “meaningless for a reasonable person to comment on anything”
You really just went straight for the whataboutism? The US and Venezuela can both do bad things.
And? How is this at all relevant to holding Maduro accountable?
Why does the U.S. need to hold Maduro accountable at all? Venezuela is a sovereign country. People got upset when Russia meddled in America’s election. How is it okay for the U.S. to meddle in Venezuela’s? Sanctions. Funding opposition parties. Take it to the UN 🇺🇳 and respect their decision. The world is growing tired of America policing their internal politics and their choice of diplomatic allies.
Because Maduro is screwing with our allies in South America. But also because supporting actual free and fair elections is the right thing to do.
And you’re so hyped up on this America whataboutism you’ve missed that the majority of South America is also calling bullshit.
Is Panama interfering? Colombia? Peru? Qatar? The UN? They’ve all been critical of this election too. Or is it just when the US is critical?
Was the election fair or unfair?
I don’t know. And anyone claiming they do is not objective.
But we do know that the U.S. has a history of interfering in elections in South America, especially in Venezuela in 2002 and 2019. Knowing this, it is reasonable to believe that this election was manipulated for American interests. Until more information is revealed, it’s just a case of “he said, she said.”
Dude, the opposition party already emailed everyone the literal receipts.
And no it’s not reasonable to just assume the US did some mumbo jumbo without evidence.
The USA has tried to make coups happen in Venezuela like half a dozen times or more over the decades, I just cannot trust anything America says about the internal politics of Venezuela.
Not that it matters what I think, America will do whatever the fuck it wants.
Sigh. What about virtually every other country out there that is not a dictatorship saying it too?
All US pawns. They said the same thing about the Soviets who brought a workers’ paradise to Eastern Europe until the capitalists finally overthrew them.
I suspect you are either too young to have even known someone that grew up in a Soviet state or you are just a fucking useful idiot.
Well I’m not that sure about that, it seems that lots of east germany people say they preferred the DDR.
Lots of Americans say they preferred trump to any other president. I don’t know what point you’re trying to make.
Nice take edgelord. Living standards were quite low in the Soviet Union for the overwhelming majority of the population, and they had very little political freedom to imprpve them. Reforms were met with a coup attempt, and it fell apart into various states where even today many are not aligned with “the big spooky west”.
Do you understand what living conditions were like before the revolution? Socialism took an agrarian society and catapulted it into one that won the space race. Literaracy, food output, lifespan all increased during socialism, and they deteriorated again once the USSR devolved back into capitalism.
Lol it advanced way faster in the west.
Not in the same period of time for the same level of development. And when it did, they accomplished it mostly through colonies and 1800’s imperialism.
Cherry picking at its finest.
Start listening in your history classes!
I think most of this is attributable more so to the abolition of serfdom and the industrial revolution than the communist one. The US also had those improve during the same period too.
Ha ha ha you’re so funny.Or stupid. Or paid lol, because you just can’t be that ignorant lol fr.
But please continue mr zero awareness guy, at least nobody is going to fall for that level of bs.
Pretty sure they’re just stupid.
If true then that’s some impressive stupidity 😁
People like you make it harder to criticise the US for legitimate reasons.
Hell, “election monitoring” in South America is a pretty historically good reason to criticise them, but now anyone who wants to make this point has to grapple with being called a tankie, and we have to sit alongside statements like “the Soviets who brought a workers’ paradise”.
Gee, that might have happened if any functioning soviets actually survived the first couple of years of the USSR, and it hadn’t become a full-on counter-revolutionary state capitalist empire.
Edit: Actually looking at this person’s posts they appear to be sarcastic here. Sorry, but there are ways to do sarcasm that land, and this wasn’t it.
“Hadn’t become”? The revolution ended de facto with the October “revolution”, when Bolsheviks started to control who sat on the councils. There may have been a couple of days or even a month where there existed a USSR but it wasn’t full-fledged counter-revolutionary, but only because the Bolsheviks needed some time to boil the revolutionary frog.
People really not picking up on your sarcasm
It’s fine. At least they’re making my point for me.
The internet is filled with Schrodinger’s Asshole. How is anyone supposed to know if you meant it sarcastically originally or are just claiming it was sarcastic now that it hasn’t landed?
I made a ridiculous argument so people could connect it to the ones being made about Venezuela. Sarcasm and satire can be very effective. Just because Poe says there’s always one nut out there who actually believes in a ridiculous argument doesn’t mean sarcasm shouldn’t be used.
NGL my first impression was no sarcasm because of the lack of s/. I thought Lemmygrad just had another leak.
the Soviets who brought a workers’ paradise to Eastern Europe
Lolol. Oh I’m chuckling away here. That’s so funny.
I’m not saying I trust Maduro or anything, but the US making a statement makes me very suspicious about the truth of that, just based on history.
The US weighing in removes credibility to the claim that the election was tampered with.
Would it help if I said I knew someone from Venezuela who is adamant that Maduro cheated? My old coworker heavily dislikes Maduro
I know someone in the US who is adamant Biden cheated, too. That’s not really evidence.
I don’t disagree. I just think we shouldn’t dismiss the possibility just because the US says it’s the case. The US also said Putin was going to invade Ukraine and caught a lot of ridicule online for that, but it turned out to be a spot on prediction.
That’s true lol
What if…the US said Maduro won? Would that add any credibility to the claim that the election was tampered with? Is Lula any less legitimate just because his victory was recognized by the US? Or would you just dismiss it and look at other opinions, mainly in SA stakeholders who suffered under US-backed dictatorships?
Yanno that’s a good question, I do think if the USA says something about the internal politics of a South American country I tend to believe the opposite is closer to the truth.
That’s the point 😁 it’s just as silly to decide to believe the US at face value as to believe the opposite just because they said it.
Of course you can formulate this as having a hypothesis based on a prior history. But then you have to look at the evidence too to decide whether to accept or reject your original hypothesis in the face of new data. Some people need stronger evidence based on how strongly they believe their original stance.
I personally was skeptical of the opposition’s 66% claim, but so far the mess of the election and not publishing results is too strong for me to ignore. But some people are so entrenched in their position that it would literally take seeing Maduro personally stuffing ballot boxes in front of them to change their mind.
What annoys me in all this is people who just take their hypothesis as all the evidence they need to convict.
You’re acting like only America says something about it. Only the most scummy countries seem to “believe” maduro.
America is a scummy country:
Yes but the others are definitely worse.
What could be worse than an alliance with a genocidal party like Likud?
No, I’ve just seen this kinda thing happen again and again, specifically with Venezuela. Sadly, the nation is getting used as a political battleground, so of course America and its allies are on one side and their rivals on the other.
Plus, the US has a long dark history of meddling in the politics of South American countries, this is absolutely the kind of thing it does to extert power.
I’m probably getting downvoted here, but I agree with your statement of the US having had a problematic history of usurping power from democratically elected governments in Central and South America. You can at least see that some of the countries that support Venezuela’s election results are run by dictators. Hell, Cuba and North Korea wouldn’t be out of place on that list too. Considering that Maduro lost a lot of popularity after Chavez’s death, partly due to the welfare system taking a huge hit when oil prices fell and partly due to him showing opulence in times of hunger.
All of these things may not be damning, but it puts the man in a bad light and makes me wonder if he actually did cheat the system in a way that our own domestic wannabe dictator tried doing just 4 years ago.
It’s not really democracies vs dictators, it’s countries in the US’s sphere vs countries not in the US’s sphere. It becomes more obvious and easy to see then. The OAS has been a puppet of US interests since the beginning (there’s a reason they didn’t let Cuba in). It literally started by a pledge to fight communism in the western hemisphere. Basically, it’s the US empire and it’s puppets and allies vs a rising new order of old colonized and sanctioned countries, which admittedly looks scary, but hopefully will one day lead to a multipolar world where people can deal with their own local issues without worry of western interference (which has almost always been net bad for the people of those countries in the global south Asia, Africa, and South America).
A country full of resources is very often a curse for its people.
On a note, *meddling.
This is not that.
Most of those failed interventions of Latin America mind you come from conservative administrations. Blinken isn’t a Neocon.
Maduro is corrupt as fuck and myriad independent nations and watchdogs corroborate the same point.
Blinken hasn’t said anything about the IDF committing war crimes in Gaza despite overwhelming evidence, so I’m going to say he’s being selective at least when it comes to reviewing evidence.
Yes that sucks. I have my thoughts on the Israeli conflict that add considerable nuance. However, we are discussing Latin America, which what I said is factually correct. Why are you deflecting to Israel now? I could just as easily point to Blinken highlighting the war crimes Russia has committed and which a Neocon never would’ve cared.
Once again, many nations corroborate this, and Maduro is known to be corrupt from the outset.
The allies supporting Maduro are… China…Iran… and Russia… Just bastions of freedom and transparency, amirite.
Just wanted to chime in and say that pointing to Blinken’s inconsistency on addressing oppressive regimes isn’t deflection, it’s context illuminating his motivations in the public statements he makes, this being one on Venezuela
The way I see the current administration’s policy is this:
- Obviously we’ve had longstanding defense agreements with Israel.
- Obviously APAIC is an incredibly strong lobbyist
- It’s dangerous to get ahead of polls and walk back defending Israel following October 7th
- Especially when the Jewish-American electorate is every bit as vital to getting Democrats over the finish-line.
- Now imagine if you will that Biden withdraws all aid to Israel, but then Bibi in a false-flag just so happens to say oopsies again and ignores intelligence and let’s another terrorist attack happen on Israeli soil. Democrats would lose in a landslide.
I think ultimately a lot of the optics right now is framed around getting reelected and ensuring Trump, who would be far more pro-genocide, doesn’t get in the White House. Blinken is clearly echoing marching orders from Biden in that respect.
Do I believe this administration at this point wants anything to do with Bibi in reality? Not really.
My point is that Blinken/the state department have been caught lying before, so using them as a source of information is just not something one should do.
Plenty of Democratic administrations have done coups and wars all over the world. It’s just a US empire policy, no matter who is President, mostly because of capitalism. Sure, conservatives are usually worse about it, but Democrats do it, too. Biden is supporting a genocide in Israel. McKinley fought the Philippines, Teddy Roosevelt in the Spanish American, JFK invaded Cuba and tried to coup it, Truman led the war in Korea and established a US puppet dictatorship in n the south for, JFK and LBJ were also involved in Vietnam, etc.
Here are the results based on the voting receipts that the government doesn’t want to release
Surprised you’re getting downvoted. People must have a very short term memory. I’d wait a couple days for them to get full results. It took like a week for the 2020 election to get the full results and that’s in the US.
I’m on an instance that doesn’t allow downvotes and it kicks ass.
But people are goldfish when it comes to politics. They forget how the US tried to secretly arm groups supporting Juan Guaido so they could put him in charge like just a few years ago.
The US wants to open Venezuela’s natural resources, particularly lithium, to the West.
Literally the whole world except dictatorships says it’s rigged, it’s not about the USA.
You’re very naive to say it’s not about the USA.
The USA is the world’s sole superpower and this is in their area of influence. It’s always about them when they get involved (as they have in 2002, 2013, 2017, and 2019, etc.).
Here are the results based on the voting receipts that the government doesn’t want to release
I’m Venezuela you can ask for a receipt of the votes for the place you voted at, the results have been compiled and made available by the opposition, Maduro got about a third of the votes, there’s a reason why he hasn’t released the numbers already.
Even in the US it can take a like a week to compile detailed election results. In the 2000 election, it took more than 30 days to settle the election. They ended up handing it to the conservatives and life has gone downhill for the US since. You may really believe it, but there are people in the US who thought Trump would win every state and have called it a steal ever since.
It’s definitely possible he stole it, it’s very in character, but the US has a vested interest in helping the opposition make up numbers and it’s very in character for them to help with a coup, too. I’m just going to keep an open mind for a couple more days probably, see if any more countries jump in being angry at Venezuela that aren’t US aligned or if any more evidence comes out.
The election in 2000 took a long time because it was very close in one state that would make a difference.
The opposition in Venezuela for once was organized and unified. They put observers in most polling places, which is their right in Venezuela. They were still denied access in some of them.
All parties have a right to get the tally from each site prior to it being sent to the central committee. The opposition has presented the tally sheets to the press. The government has not.
The level of proof is incredible. It should not be necessary. And yet even with this in hand, people doubt because they like socialism.
Even in 2020, it took many days before they called the election and released counts. Maduro is saying they tried to release it but got hacked, which I know is unbelievable to people here, but it is 100% within the US’s power and interest to do so. I admit it doesn’t look good, but if the government doesn’t get data out within a couple days, I’d be more inclined to believe the opposition. I just don’t want to rush to anything considering the history of elections in this country and US meddling, it’s perhaps making me overly cautious lol.
Also, in their defense, socialism has helped people in countries of equivalent development more than capitalism every single time so that makes sense. Argentina has already speed run a higher inflation rate than Venezuela with their great capitalist policies. For globally south countries, “free markets” always means letting foreign companies trade local resources, at the cost of losing sanctions from those foreign companies, which artificially make it seem like those policies were better than they actually were. Maduro has made lots of mistakes but an alternate left candidate would be more likely to help the country than a right-wing one.
Now Venezuela isn’t super socialist, and I heard Gonzalez is supposed to be kinda centrist, so hopefully it’s not that bad if he ends up in charge. But currently, Machado also seems like the one saying everything and leading the movement, and she’s already revealed herself to be pro Zionist, which reveals a pro-imperialist sentiment, which is a red flag to me.
You’re ignoring what I said on purpose? Voting is done electronically, the results have been released by the opposition, Maduro’s side is intentionally not making the proofs public.
Here are the results based on the voting receipts that the government doesn’t want to release
There’s no way to independently verify that the opposition’s source data is accurate. It doesn’t mean much until we can see the official data to see if it can explain the discrepancies. If there’s no competing data released within the next couple days then we can take it at face value, and I’ll 100% accept it, but until then, I’d at least give them as much time as I gave Biden. That seems fair. Especially if they’re worried about hacks and opposition messing with the election data (and it’s not like the US doesn’t have a history of messing with elections so it’s not completely unbelievable despite everyone’s incredulity here).
Their data matches independent exit polls, the government’s data doesn’t.
Those exit polls were done by a US research agency that’s worked with US government projects before.
Mr Maduro accused the opposition of producing fake evidence to contest the result of the election and said the US was behind what he described as a farce and a coup attempt.
Wouldn’t be the first time
I already believe the Venezuelan elections were rigged. Stop trying to convince me otherwise Blinken.
The result has been recognised by Venezuelan allies China, Russia and Iran.
The three countries most well known for their open and fair democratic processes.
/s
Sussy af
Insert “Why is it always you three” meme here.
