My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an “All or Nothing” mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.
And veganism, if taken to the “no suffering of sentient beings” full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they’re considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it’s very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have “as far as is practicable”. I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don’t work here in Australia.
vegan diets in third world countries are cheaper because they generally just end up being 90% filler starches and still have woefully bad nutrition outside of being calories
Unsolicited advice: Your goal is to do no more or less than the best you can. If you’re doing that, no one got shit on you.
Which is precisely why they will get along with the tankies so well. Both treat the very idea of nuance as an existential threat to the point where everything much be driven by the most extreme degree of moral panic or nothing at all.
your oxford study doesn’t account for anyone who gets free or subsidized meat, or who catches, raises, or hunts their own. so it excludes basically all of the working poor, which is basically everyone.
or who catches, raises, or hunts their own.
How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
Or how does ‘free or subsidized meat’ compare with free or subsidized plant based food?
How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
as the deer spends all year gathering nutrients, and they can spend one morning gathering the deer, it seems to me it’s highly effective.
Most vegans would allow an exception for certain lifestyles. People hunting for their homestead aren’t going to cause a global issue like is currently happening.
Ideally we wouldnt hunt at all but thats like some sort of futuristic goal. Noones going to tell you to starve your family to appease veganism, thats not the point.
The point is to reduce suffering and abuse wherever possible. Sometimes its not possible.
People hunting for their homestead aren’t going to cause a global issue like is currently happening.
that’s not what the vegan society says about animal exploitation.
Lol, ok so you’re including labor cost?
A couple years of a dear ‘gathering nutrients’, vs a summer of cultivating a garden and harvesting? Or do I need to include the energy expenditure (energy ingested by the dear minus energy lost to biological processes, vs solar energy collected minus energy expended on building plant mass and energy expended in harvest)?
I was really just pointing out the absurdity of your complaint about the study but you’re making this into a fun little digression.
it costs us almost nothing to take down a deer. it costs us a great deal to raise a garden.
Costs nothing to harvest a plant, too.
Costs a great deal to own a gun and ammunition, a truck to haul, tools and labor to clean and butcher, and more to store and prepare it. To speak nothing of the labor of the dear to produce the biomass.
Lol we can keep going with this if you want, it’s pretty fun.
if it’s free, then throwing it out and acquiring plants is more expensive.
If it’s free then throwing it out costs nothing though, right? Or are you talking about the cost of the state subsidy?
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to the state to subsidize a plant-based diet instead?
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to the state to subsidize a plant-based diet instead?
regardless of what would be a good decision for the state, the oxford paper doesn’t acknowledge the material conditions of most people.
oxford paper doesn’t acknowledge the material conditions of most people
It acknowledges the material conditions of production
If it’s free then throwing it out costs nothing though, right?
but replacing it would cost something. throwing away perfectly good food isn’t something most people think is a moral good.
I thought your point was to disregard the morality of the diet and focus on the economics?
Save animals and switch to orphan-meat
I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists.
I wish that was true (and I’m not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they’re the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I’m doing the same to them).
I think that you will find that these anti-vegans are reacting to the behaviour of the extremist.
I don’t disagree, but then they’ll apply their hatred to the whole (or at least majority) of the group
That, unfortunately, is how it goes. If the only vegans that most people deal with are the obnoxious assholes then they assume that every vegan is an obnoxious asshole.
No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic “bacon” posts.
The vast majority of people love bacon and bacon memes and jokes are part of the mainstream culture. Do you accommodate non-vegans? Why do you expect them to accommodate you?
Vegans have no obligation to serve you flesh or secretions.
Have your consisted simply minding your own business? No one wants you to serve them anything. The simply want you to keep your false sense of moral superiority and sanctimonious comments to yourself. It’s really quite simple.
I’m not going to mind my own business when people are misrepresenting my community and spreading slander about it.
What exactly do you think I’m misrepresenting? Have you heard of the Antler Kitchen and Bar in Toronto and the months of threats, harassment, and abuse that was hurled at the owner and patrons in attempt to bully them into not eating meat?
Do you accommodate non-vegans?
That’s because they don’t consider non-veganism a morally acceptable option.
As a thought experiment, pick any action that you would personally find morally repugnant and ask yourself if you should accommodate people who do that action.
Precisely. They make the same mistake that all extremists make. They believe that they are morally superior which justifies anything they say or do to anyone they see as inferior. The problem is that the rest of the world does not agree with them so they are reviled for their antisocial behaviour then constantly whine about how the people they harangue treat them badly.
Just because the rest of the world doesn’t agree with them doesn’t mean they’re wrong, though. Societal norms progress with splinter groups that are willing to put their convictions above group conformity. The process is always unpleasant.
Yup, that’s exactly the mistake that extremists make. There is a great quote from a judgement out of a court in the UK. Let me find it…
“But the plain fact is that each of you has some time ago crossed the line from concerned campaigner to fanatic. You have appointed yourselves as the sole arbiters of what should be done about climate change, bound neither by the principles of democracy nor the rule of law.
“And your fanaticism makes you entirely heedless of the rights of your fellow citizens. You have taken it upon yourselves to decide that your fellow citizens must suffer disruption and harm, and how much disruption and harm they must suffer, simply so that you may parade your views.”
This really sums it up. Sometimes fanatics are right. Often, they are wrong. Their ability to self-absolve their abhorent antisocial behavior is why so many people so violently hate them and it’s the reason that many vegans feel like they are being painted with the same brush. They’ve appointed themselves holy crusaders who will bully, harass, and intimidate anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
Of all the delicious meats to be obsessed about, redditbros went and picked one of the least appealing ones and decided to make it their entire personality 💀
For real. I’ve been vegetarian for a few years now and of all the things I kind of miss, not once has bacon been even a slight craving. A good kebab on the other hand…
Nah, as a vegan most people act pretty hateful towards us even when we don’t bring up the topic.
Most people only ever hear anything from the extremists so you get painted with the same brush. I have friends who are vegans who are amazing people. I go out of my way to accommodate them. You are getting hate because of a very small group of fanatics who believe that they are absolutely morally superior and that that absolute moral superiority justified doing and saying anything to anyone who doesn’t agree with them in an attempt to shame, harass, and intimidate them into doing what they are told.
They’re easy to hate - They’re weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who care about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They’re basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
I think the cause has been tainted by the rampant propagandizing and demonization across all forms of media that the movement has been subjected to. You’re doing it now, even - what the hell even is an “extremist vegan”?
You should read the post the vegan@lemmy.world mods made in response to the admin actions. Phrases like “carnist Lemmy admin”, as if that’s the reason they didn’t like the idea of starving a cat.
There was also a comment saying Vegan should be a protected belief, like other religions.
It’s not a conspiracy by the meat and dairy industry.
Extreme vegans are the people who stand outside restaurants, grocery stores, butcher shops, etc. and yell at people just trying to go about their lives calling them carnists, corpose munchers, blood mouths, animal torturers, and talk about murdering animals (murder is the killing of one human by another) or eating cadavers (a cadaver is a dead human body.) They don’t simply go about their lives living their best vegan life but harass and harangue people. They do the same thing online.
Yikes. You know, vegans are targeted by the extremely wealthy & powerful meat & dairy industries who spend untold fortunes making the vegan lifestyle look as unappealing and “crazy” as possible?
I mean, I’m sure you’re galaxy brain is impervious to propaganda and everything, I’m just saying, you’re painting with an awfully broad brush.
That’s getting a bit tinfoil hat, don’t you think?
Or its tracing the money and influence of different lobbies in America. Just look at the original gerrymandered food pyramid made to accommodate the dairy industry. Or lawsuits against plant based alternatives.
who cares about chickens
Most people. Anyone who isn’t a psychopath cares to some extent about animals, vegan or non-vegan
I hate chickens. They’re loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to abuse them. I take good care of my chickens despite the fact that they’re assholes.
They’re loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other.
They’re just like us! 😌
Pretty much.
I think it’s funny how quickly the outspoken anti-vegan types deliver the “I actually think it’s ok to torture animals” completely unprompted
Can you find me a sample of someone saying, “I actually thing it’s ok to torture animals”? I’d be intersted to see that if it’s actually happening. Or, are you creating a straw man?
Literally that post’s grandparent, which is the subject of that post?
Can you link me to the place where it says these words?
“I actually think it’s ok to torture animals”
Your honor, my client never explicitly said the words “I’m requesting a bribe”.
I had a pet chicken in elementary school. She was a sweetheart.
The community of non-vegans is a lot bigger than that of the vegans. So vegans do something that gets a reaction, you are much more likely to hear that reaction than the original thing.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They’re not taking this well at all.
Cats can thrive on vegan diets perfectly well. Mine is still with me since like 4 years and didn’t eat a single animal protein in that time…
It’s called being a responsible human and minimising suffering.
Four years isn’t that long, cats can live up to twenty years.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.
Im not a vegan but I’m not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.
this doesn’t make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that’s called sophistry.
I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position and often don’t have a good justification for why they’re not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.
Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position
most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.
The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.
it’s true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.
The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:
A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
B) Animals are sentient
∴ Enslaving animals is wrongi used a plural. it’s not just one argument. you’re not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.
animal agriculture isn’t slavery. i don’t believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we’d have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don’t try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don’t feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.
There are so many dishes you can make with plants and yet you choose the term “slop”
I’ve seen some of the pictures that have been posted in c/vegan. Some of them were literally brown slop. My family eats a number of vegetarian and vegan dishes along with those that contain meat. I don’t care what anyone wants to eat, even if it is brown slop.
You’re choosing the worst looking examples of plant-based foods to suit your claim, any soap could be considered slop.
You can make salads, tacos, burgers, bread, desserts all with plants.
Yes, I’m definitely picking the worst examples to illustrate my point just as someone else used the word, “murder” (the killing of one human being by another) four times when referring to non-humans.
I haven’t seen any posts come up in All where I said, “That looks really good. I would eat that.” I remember several photos of puddles of lumpy goo where I thought, “Ew”.
I’ve eaten plenty of vegetarian and vegan meals that I thought were delicious. I have no problem with vegetarians or vegans. I have a real problem with extremists no matter how they mistakenly believe that they are absolutely superior.
Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that’s more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with
Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.
I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.
Still, I eat meat.
Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.
I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.
going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary).
Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?
going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don’t go into c/DBZ and say “funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies”.
Most people are not
prepared forinterested in a conversation on veganism.Vegans have been
refining these argumentspreaching at people who didn’t ask for a decade nowand can present
clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everythingpresent you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.They also have the easier side to argue.
That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they’re missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.
Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it’s fine that you have them and it’s super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.
I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.
It’s meateaters who want to debate me all the time
Absolutely a lie lol
Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?
Why would that not include animals?
three separate reasons.
they aren’t people. the don’t participate in our society. tehy don’t respect the freedoms of others.
Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn’t make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I’ll debate it with anyone.
Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don’t need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don’t eat them.
I’m not vegan so I’m not taking you up on that debate.
Yup, vegans have science and studies to back up their claims while some meateaters have tradition and false equivalences to back up theirs.
They also have the easier side to argue.
no, they don’t
Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?
I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.
I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.
i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.
Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought
Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?
i suppose that depends on circumstances.
if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don’t care for your interrogative style.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.
if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.
Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing.
can you support this claim?
you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.
i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.
What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?
that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I’d have a problem with that too
if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry.
but just being vegan doesn’t cause this to happen.
If legume farming was destroying the rainforest,
turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say
Lol they fuck they can, they couldn’t even properly present and defend their own sources.
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You replied to the wrong person
Damn, thanks, moved it.
I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That’s pretty egregious.
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So you are cool if we just feed prisoners vitamin fortified gruel since they can technically survive on it?
I mean we do already with nutraloaf. But lets stay on the topic at hand.
So vegan diets are just “salads, bugs, grass and gruel” whenever it suits your argument for the moment.
I absolutely abhor the idea of nutraloaf. It’s the same modernist bullshit which got us eugenics.
If you actually give your cat a real option and they choose the vegan food, that is fine with me.
There are many plant-based recipes that are tasty out there, cats would enjoy the vegan food if its made right.
Its their nature in the wild to choose meat because its what sustained them for so long in the past.
I mean a lot of people are feeding there cats cheap dry kibble that has almost no resemblance to the meat it was rendered from. If your argument is that it’s abuse if you aren’t feeding your cat what it wants then there’s a lot of cat abusers out there.
I will happily argue that this is a form of animal abuse. People buying cheap Wal Mart kibble are shitty.
- Agreed, except when it’s being done to retroactively justify your actions.
- I think it’s a very bad idea to feed a cat a Vegan diet, but there are vegan products being sold on the market, and if you want to feed your cat one of these products, you should discuss them with a vet or other qualified professional. Regular dry food contains way more carbohydrates than cats are meant to have in their diet, which can lead to obesity and diabetes in cats. Are people who feed their cats dry food animal abusers? Should the Lemmy admins start policing the use of dry food?
- The mods of c/vegan were trying to assert their ability to moderate their own sub as they saw fit in the face of a massive overreach from the admin. I think they’re the most insufferable community I’ve seen on this instance, but they should have the right to moderate their own community.
And yes, I’m on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I’m certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
And yes, I’m on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I’m certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
Just please make an alt account if you intend on cresting any communities.
I’m no fan of Lemmy.world but I’m even less of a fan of dead cats.
What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don’t worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
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Bruh. This is why I don’t like folks from vegan communities. So full of misinformation and vitriol regarding farming practices. Dead, malnourished and diseased cattle are worthless to a farmer, so they intentionally don’t keep them in conditions like these crazies describe.
That said I am trying to cut down on my meat consumption because meat production is more climate intensive than vegetables, and my diet is not as vegetable-heavy as it should be. But you folks make it so hard to feel good about making positive changes like that
because they challenge your biases you dont like them. classic
They literally do though? Have you ever seen a chicken farm? Or a mink farm? Or dozens of different examples of factory farming?
A few dead animals don’t matter if you can fit in 20x the amount of chickens in the same space
Not a mink farm but I’ve been to cow, goat, sheep, pig and chicken farms. You know what you get with 20x the herd in the same space? 200x the disease risk and 20x the loss when you have to cull the entire herd because the USDA started investigating why your cattle tested positive for [insert nastiness here]. Sick cattle are a great way to lose the farm that’s been in the family for generations. Healthy cattle are how you give your kids the option to choose to continue farming
What is your intent when replying like this? Did you intend to have a conversation and a sharing of views? Is it just about mocking the hypocrisy what you assume my views to be?
Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don’t just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn’t very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn’t own a cat.
That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they’re unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn’t, but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
Finally, I’m also not a fan of dead cats, but if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
I just wanted to add: the reason why most carnivores go for the digestive tract first when eating their prey is that they eat the predigested plant matter with the entrails, making those nutrients much more readily available to them.
It’s a shame; i’m sure there are vegans feeding their cats this way, and when those animals lose muscle mass quickly, the first thing that gets really damaged by that are their kidneys - and this does normally only get noticed shortly before the cat is going to die. And it’s an ugly death. I’ve had a young cat which had nearly dead kidneys when we got her, and it’s pure torture for them - we tried everything we could, but there’s not much to be done after they show symptoms. That one “study” that other poster is throwing around with the owner-reported feedback regarding the health of their cats has actual negative worth.
I feel like nobody is approaching this from a consent aspect either. If someone offers their cat an array of cat food options and makes an actual honest attempt to determine a long term preference and the cat legitimately prefers the vegan cat food, then that’s way less problematic than saying “you will eat this weird food or you will starve.”
The forced veganism thing just feels a lot like saying “studies show that a human can technically survive on roaches and rat feces as long as they get a vitamin C supplement.”
Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies
Yeah, that’s not how it works. Especially in countries with extreme regulatory capture like the US.
Unless a product has text that says in a very specifically worded way that it’s been tested and approved by a relevant regulatory body, it hasn’t.
The fact that something hasn’t been taken off the market YET does not necessarily mean that it’s been approved. Especially not when you’re dealing with politically volatile stuff that could lead to lengthy public lawsuits sapping the resources of the already chronically underfunded and understaffed agencies.
If it’s vegan food for obligate carnivores, it MIGHT technically be “safe” (as in won’t be outright lethal), but for the reasons you yourself mentioned, it’s likely to significantly decrease the animal’s enjoyment of life at best and more likely to be downright torturous.
It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking
Except for the fact that those accounts would be absolutely right and have reams of scientific evidence from the world’s foremost experts in related fields to back up their claims. Unlike the people abusing cats in the name of not abusing animals.
it probably isn’t
It is. It’s not even anywhere near the next city over from the neighborhood of close.
but I don’t need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that
Except limiting the spread of dangerous misinformation, such as common myths that are keeping smokers away from one of if not THE most effective smoking cessation tool, is a big part of what admins are FOR.
if you’re dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you’re probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway
Yeah…that’s not a valid argument either. A lot of vegans avoid getting a cat because they’re too overzealous in their veganism to even want carnivorous animals to eat meat.
The Venn diagram of people vegan enough to love carnivores but refuse to give them meat and people who would trust a vegan online echo chamber more than competent veterinarians is a circle within a bigger circle.
Well, various vegan catfoods have been approved for use in not only the U.S. but also the E.U., but your point about regulatory capture is fair. Unfortunately, it’s undercut by your support for vaping, a nicotine product brought to market with an insane lack of oversight. Ironically, most of what you’re complaining about with the cat food is exactly what makes vaping so dangerous. We don’t have as much research or long-term studies on the effects of vaping to say it’s as dangerous as smoking, but we know that they contain propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, which are toxic to cells, aldehydes, which are associated with lung disease and heart disease, acrolein, which can cause COPD, asthma and lung cancer, as well as various heavy metals. I’m pretty sure that a lot more people will die of vaping than cats will die of veganism. That being said, I don’t think people who support vaping should be removed from lemmy for using a product that’s probably unsafe, and and it’s not the job of admins or moderators to stop people from taking bad health advice from strangers on the internet.
In the UK the NHS is advocating for vaping as a way to stop smoking, and it works. Also, i don’t know where you get your information about VG and PG (especially regarding their toxicity), but i am more than sure that your information is outdated/obsolete by now.
A large part of your cells walls are made out of vegetable glycerin. The LD50 for rats is about 12g/kg body weight (mice 8g/kg) when ingested (so about 1kg for a 100kg human), and the seen adverse effects when inhaling were minimal and only visible in hourlong exposures at the highest tested concentration.
Propylene Glycol has an even higher LD50 in rodents (20 GRAMS/kg b.w.) and is in use in every theatre in the world for fog and smoke effects (in HUGE volumes in contrast to vaping - i vape a lot and am somwhere between 5-10ml VG/PG 1:1 per day) for ages now, and there would have been found a correlation between stage workers and lung cancer by now. It’s widely used in the agricultural sector as a feed additive in pretty large quantities too.
you get acrolein when the e-cigarette overheats. modern devices should not even really do this anymore. The heavy metals are a hypothesis i heard in the beginning and for which i haven’t seen any source in the last 5 years. At least if you aren’t overheating your NI80 coils on purpose to a dull red glow. all my homies use SS316 for smooth automatic temperature control :-)
I’m with you regarding the aroma additives (which i assume you meant as source for aldehydes); not many of those have been tested regarding inhalation (except for aromatherapy probably), and they might prove to be detrimental. i also believe that if i had kept my pack or two a day hobby for much longer, it would have had a real chance of killing me. i am also advocating that this stuff should be 18+ - by that age the whole “peer pressure” thing that led to me starting smoking with 14 should be mostly over.
in the end, the most important part is: i choose to use e-cigarettes since it’s harm reduction in comparison to smoking (and nothing else worked for me), and i know that it would be healthier not to do it. cats don’t have much choice regarding their food, especially when combined with an religiously motivated owner.
If thats true then everyone should probably start leaving .world. If they cant even behave themselves with something as simple as veganism, then you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
I mean they “preemptively defederated hexbear as a last resort” for fear they might discuss politics, so that ship has sailed.
Shush tankie.
Maybe, but this seems like a problem that’s bigger than a single instance. A few months back someone came with some pretty good receipts showing .ml admins going after people for having some very fair and moderate criticisms of China. Seems like most instances either have power tripping mods or are too small to have much activity.
The issues with dot ml and dot world are hardly comparable. I’ve had my concerns with some of the world admin actions (flip-flopping, lack of communication) but I do believe they are trying in good faith. I’m still happy to be registered and to make my communities elsewhere but for now I don’t see them as being nearly as egregious as ml.
I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
Just don’t interact with communities you dislike. It’s a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
I’m just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
I like that approach.
Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they’re out there (as long as it’s not more rice and beans).
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean…
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
Meat eaters will be convicted for eating meat in the future.
Lmfao. You gonna be vegan Stalin or something?
Stalin only cares for himself.
By holding meat eaters accountable for the crimes of eating the flesh of others we prevent the deaths of other animals.
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
thing is, it’s a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don’t really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I’m afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won’t last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.
good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.
You must be exhausting to be around. sheesh
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
this should be on a billboard.
Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They’ll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.
Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.
This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It’s a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you’re trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That’s what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
That’s not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!
it definitely seems so sometimes
and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don’t actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.
What I said is that you don’t help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.
brutal take down. nice
Nope, thats projection when carnists refuse to read all the studies that supports the plant-based diet and act rude when they realize their actions cause harm.
I’m a cow and this made me feel better about my fate
Nah, facts dont care about feelings. Being vegan a day prevents the death of an animal.
I was going to stop torturing animals, bit some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I’m going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don’t frequent any guitar-based communities
I’m fully aware, but “I’m not going vegan because they’re so annoying” is a pretty common excuse.
It is a common excuse. And yet you’re still being really annoying.
Removed by mod
Yeah that isn’t what they said though
Take the L dude.
Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that’s a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.
Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU’RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.
If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.
Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I’m not crying about others leavinge “the cause” Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason…
Only if you have poor reading comprehension.
Only because you’re inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don’t know why they aren’t vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don’t want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don’t pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
“oh no, the vegans are leaving!” said no-one ever
If that was true there wouldn’t be so many posts and comments about the situation.
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both and more
“[…] well moderated and run.”
LOL!
Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I’ll never understand.
transsexuals
This is exactly why trans people flocked to a community that actually respects them.
What’s wrong with the word “transexual”? \gen
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
casual drive-by meme;
You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
I think we’ve had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
As a vegan tankie, I’m more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you’re going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it’s much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you’re not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
Isn’t it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
I still don’t know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.
Tankies are a pejorative term for left-wing, often communist, supporters of authoritarian regimes they see as anti-imperialist or socialis, it now broadly includes defenders of governments like China or North Korea. Critics argue tankies overlook human rights abuses, prioritizing geopolitical stability over true socialist values.
Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I’m not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community… Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.
Removed by mod
Dave, in fact, could not behave and could not resist a personal attack.
is it very personal?
Do you not understand what the word “personal” means, or are you confused about this usage of attack?
maybe you could enlighten me
Alright. If I were to say something like “You’re a dumbass, and have no room to criticize.” that’d be a personal attack because I’d be making a (metaphorical) attack on your person (character). Hope that helps.
sure. I did not say anything like that. I just reminded the poster that they pay people to abuse and kill animals.
Is that really so personal?
What part of insulted their individual lifestyle seems like business to you?
Where is the border between acceptable and not acceptable lifestyle? The animals can’t consent. If you beat your wife, is that also an individual lifestyle we have to respect? What if you neglect and beat your pets, for a closer example? What if your individual lifestyle is dumping trash into the ocean?
Luckily we pass laws to regulate unacceptable lifestyles.
Go pass some laws. Instead of trying to be a vegan vigilante, try to organize and show compassion to people. Even if that means being belittled in the process, you’ll have the moral high ground.
they said that they pay to have things killed on their behalf.
if they say it, then it ain’t very personal is it?
“It’s not a personal attack if you provided me with the information I used to attack you”
rather than paying for an actual physical attack on an animal.
Your performative concern for animals is noted.
I’ll put those performative points into my V card for later use.
Person who pays for animals to be tortured
no one does that
You can keep telling yourself that if it helps.
if you have evidence to the contrary, you should present it.
I’m guessing they mean factory farming
have you ever paid anyone at a factory farm? i haven’t, and i don’t think most people have.
in torture, the pain is the point. while i think factory farming is too ambivalent about suffering, i also believe the suffering is only incidental, not intentional. it’s not torture.
perhaps you could explain that subtle difference to the animals going through the system of abuse.
Im sure it would brighten up their days no end to realise the pain they are experiencing is not the point of the system and that therefore, they are not being tortured.
Yes that’s how you have a conversation. Good job.
Says the person who pays for humans to be tortured they can have a phone.
See? We can all make disingenuous, insulting statements; but that’s not productive in getting people to listen to us.
depending on how you see things, abuse is part of any system. that said, humans are at least able to be a part of the system and have dialogue with the system. there is potential to effect a system.
this cannot be said for a 4 day old calf being taken away from the mother for slaughter just so the mother can continue to lactate and little fat Jonny can have his full fat on his frosties again.
lastly, it’s hardly insulting to remind people that they pay for disgusting levels of animal abuse.
And this is why its impossible to have a conversation with yall. Even if you believe this, if you are hostile to outsiders, you just guarantee theyll want to do it more. Cult deprogrammers have to be real nice and mostly just listen for a reason
When you know what occurs in factory farming. Its hard to continue to be nice to others who have the ability to stop supporting the cruel system with their money.
Its often easier to go vegan than people initially believe. You can do it.
We really dont though. It is simply not realistic to fight for an ethic that requires the overwhelming majority to be hyperrational in their ethics. Human nature tends toward cruelty, and Ive yet to see a vegan have recourse for that.
Setting aside the whole plants feel pain too bit
People are cruel often because of the systems they’re raised in. I could show you many instances where kindness is punished in order to maintain the status quo of hierarchical systems. Humans can be much more ethical if we chose to be.
Plant react to stimuli however they do not have the nervous system to process pain like the way cows and pigs do.
And yet people default to those systems and have since the agricultural revolution.
As for plant stimuli, who are you to say that doesn’t constitute pain? They sure communicate it to those around them, cut grass smell and all that. Does an ant not feel pain because it mostly just responds to and sends out pheromones? Bit of a “my red is your blue” argument you’re making.
By eating plant-based you reduce the amount of plants that are grown for human consumption since you skip the farm animals completely “if you’re so concerned about plants feeling pain”
You wouldn’t kick a person and justify that logic saying “but plants feel pain every time you walk on grass”
