So what would you tell people that say that Nazis stands for national socialism - there is a socialism even in the name of the party.
So where does capitalism comes from?
…The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man. And as, in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet.
If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men
– Hitler in Mein Kampf
‘Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality and, unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.
Excerpt from an interview with Hitler. Note the part about “private property”.
Obviously he railed against Marxism all the time, but these were the most obvious quotes. He clearly did defend private property, and I’m not really sure that there was any collective farming like he describes of his “German ancestors”.
It seems I read once that “socialist” was just in the party name to garner support of those who would be supportive of socialist values. I can’t recall the publication, but wonder if that’s true?
Yeah, but that’s something that is harder to be succinctly convincing about to someone who is enough of a philistine to say “nazis were socialist” to begin with. That said, in the source I linked, the very next paragraph is:
‘We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our Socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the State on the basis of race solidarity. To us, State and race are one…
If it’s nearly as appropriate to call yourselves liberal as it is to call yourselves socialist, you probably aren’t much of either (and indeed, as much as I despise liberals, Hitler was not a liberal either).
Thanks. That’s a liberal (sorry, I couldn’t resist) definition of socialism he used there too, even allowing for the “national” qualifier.
Do you also believe that the Democratic Republic of North Korea is a democracy just because the name says so?
No, I believe it is a democracy after taking time to research how their government works, after spending years believing they were some weird dictatorship due to ambient western propaganda
The Nazis built the first concentration camp at Dachau for priests and political prisoners. The political prisoners were mostly from the Socialist Party of Germany (SPD), communists and liberals. The fucking MAGATs are trying to twist history again.
I’m just saying that some ring wing characters online are saying this:
To be clear, the SPD also killed the Communists, and the Liberals sided with the Nazis.
Some liberals sided with the Nazis, though many were rather ideologically confused by the whole thing. There certainly were many liberals sent to the camps, and any would-be German Voltaire would have been sent there pretty quickly if not just shot outright.
I would ask these people who was in charge, the workers, or the large corporations, and by what mode of production were commodities produced.
The Nazis were not Socialist, they were similar to Social Democrats but far more Nationalist, racist, and Corporatist. They were Capitalism in its most Anticommunist and violent form, fascism.
I’m just saying that some ring wing characters online are saying this:
They can be entirely disregarded.
The naming of something decides the nature of the thing
Lol
So where does capitalism comes from?
Volkswagen, Siemens, IBM, Hugo Boss, and many others. Also socialists known to like privatization, not like the Nazis invented that, rightt?
“Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.” - Benito Mussolini
I‘m not disagreeing with what you’re trying to convey but still: Mussolini very likely never said/wrote that, seems to have been misattributed. IF he did, the Italian word corporazioni, while technically translating to corporations, doesn’t refer to private companies, which in Italian are normally called società.
More info:
Fascism is Capitalism’s immune system, activated when the wealth gap gets too large.
Maybe we shouldn’t be using an economic system whose immune system has historically lead to genocide, especially in an age where nukes are now a thing.
If it’s protecting capitalism, wouldn’t you mean when the wealth gap is too small? As in it is a driving force of the wealth gap?
No, as the Petite Bourgeoisie are proletarianized by the formation of Monopoly Capitalism, the Petite Bourgeoisie aligns with the Bourgeoisie against the Proletariat, who at the time gain class consciousness and are increasingly sympathetic to Socialism and Communism. Fascism is a defense mechanism against Communism.
Activated when the people get’s too aware of the exploitation and begins fighting back
In simpler terms, it’s greed.
That’s too close to a “it’s just human nature” asspull too often used to justify capitalistic skullduggery.
It’s systems built to reward the exploitation of the many by a few powerful individuals. It’s not a sin that is the issue, it’s the actual political-economic systems that are currently being maintained.
The CSA precedes the Nazis. In fact, Nazi race laws were partially based on slavery laws from the southern US.
Ehh i wouldnt agree, heavy capitalists are usually pretty liberal because they dont like regulation. There is some precident of big factory and company owners actually fighting against faschism(not for the good reasons tho). I do agree with lesser right wing ideologies just being “recruitment” for far-righters. Wewe seen them radicalise so many times in the past that it should be obvious by now that any amount of right leads to more far-right.
deleted by creator
Capitalism doesn’t care what people feel about it, it moves according to its structure. Just because libertarians don’t like Capitalism doesn’t mean they can stop monopoly Capitalism from lobbying for regulations.
All liberal capitalists want a full on chain of commands and dictator level control over their
domainemployees. The only difference is that they want “market forces” to force people to work for them instead of violence.Poverty is violence. The extra steps change nothing.
It outsources the blame and hides the connection from those who lack critical thinking.
Yeah thats true. Maybe this is like reading into the nuance of how a work camp is better than a death camp because you at least produce something before dying a horrible death. But i still stand by my opinion that the meme isnt completely true.
I would certainly not say that adding extra torment by forcing people to work as a profit incentive for capitalists would make said death camp any less abhorrent.
Yes thats what im saying in my comment? Maybe my language was unclear but i meant that my original comment is also a useless comparison.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al: am I a joke to you?
You’re on .ml so yea tankies being tankies…
Illiterate too, Hitler wrote of Jim Crow as a model for Germany in Mein Kampf.
Most of the deaths under Stalin were from the conman Trofim Lysenko, who created “Lysenkoism” (a set of farming techniques he was faking the data on to get paid), and under both Mao and Stalin were from unwanted famines.
Horseshoe theory is horseshit, and Pol pot was as much a communist as Hitler was a socialist, which is to say not at all.
I never claimed he was. My point is that it doesn’t matter what particular holy book any genocidal maniac waves around.
Neither Stalin nor Mao were genocidal. Famines had been a common occurrence in Russia and China throughout recorded history. Soon after their socialist revolutions, Russia and China experienced one more famine, and have not experienced one since. They ended famines.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I have nothing to say to that.
Good, because you’d get dunked on lib
What do you think happened instead?
Well, Russia experienced two more, but one of them was very directly due to WWII
Neither Stalin nor Mao were genocidal.
Do you deny the Holodomor happened?
That is the famine I’m talking about.
no but u are
If everything is to be shared under communism, wouldnt that include political power? That would make communism a direct democracy. Does that sound like the countries you have in mind?
Perhaps there is a better unknown way to live our lives that we haven’t discovered yet. How would we ever discover it if we just allow the status quo to persist? Capitalism doesn’t even have tens of thousands of years of precedent like feudalism has. We unmake feudalism in much of the world, one day we will unmake Capitalism.
I bet a large portion of the population would agree that how we live our lives… is bullshit and needs to be replaced. We just don’t agree with what to do next.
we should try new things until everyone’s needs are met. This way of life is worthless as it only works for the 1%.
4·3 months agoCapitalism doesn’t even have tens of thousands of years of precedent like feudalism has
Feudalism doesn’t have tens of thousands of years either.
when you definitely understand what fascism is
Last two flags are in the wrong order. Not just chronologically, but with regards to causation too: the Nazis were heavily influenced by American racists.
An argument could be made for the American traitor flag to be on both sides of the swastika, but that would be pretty messy…
A Stars & Stripes with 48 stars would probably be too subtle…
It’s valid to point that out, but I think that OP is talking about the modern usage of the Confederate flag, not the original use. At least, it becomes a much more coherent message that way.
Hitler spoke about the American south and Jim Crow with reverence, he thought it should be a model for German racist policies.
This was something he wrote about in Mein Kampf.
i mean not just the south, the west and midwest too where do u think he got all those ideas about contiguous “living space” and about exterminating the people who already live in the land u want to steel and about consecration camps and reservations that continuously move towards a frontier until the displaced people have nowhere to go, amerikkka from its very inception was the template for nazi germany.
I lived in the Midwest, it’s nothing like that.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
The south literally fought a war (Texas fought 2) to preserve their practices of slavery and genocide.
The Midwest fought, killed, and died to stop them.
The post is about the genocide of Native Americans. Natives originally lived in the Midwest, and now they don’t.
Also, Indiana is the only state to be taken over by the KKK, and the North was racist in its own way.
They lived in the entire US, particularly the south, as did millions of slaves who suffered centuries of genocidal brutality and worse.
And as a non-white American , you are infinitely full of shit.
I’ve lived in most of the country, I have NEVER experienced such utter and brutal racism as in the vile, depraved south.
This is because after the civil war we let the slaver class live in the south, and they just took over as soon as our back was turned.
Worst decision in this country’s history, we would be so much greater of a nation if we’d simply dealt with the problem then instead of letting their filth fester and spread. Notice how Germany is a good country nowadays while the south is still as worthless as ever.
Indiana had racism, but comparing it to the south is like comparing a sneeze and ebola.
Notice how Germany is a good country nowadays
That really isn’t true, and it’s not true for the same reasons as you describe of the American South. There was relatively little denazification in West Germany, and the West German government eventually became the German government, so now we have a country where the supposedly liberal parties respond to the blatantly fascist AfD by adopting their policy positions.
It really is, except for East Germany, which got rid of their Nazi trash and replaced them with Soviet trash, which, just like Russia has, swerved them hard nazi again.
Maybe you haven’t experienced it. But I know a Navajo man very well who was raped by missionaries in New Mexico in the 60s, and that’s a VERY common story. You don’t know shit, shut the fuck up.
You’re incredibly uneducated to be making the claims you are.
Racism in the US south against black people looks different than racism in the midwest/Western states against Native Americans because the goals of the racism were different.
The govt wanted to grow the black population so they could have a huge workforce to take from. Explicit racism helps a lot with this, because it’s declaring people black and enforcing that they are less than and deserve to be a lower class. This is probably what you mean about how racist the south is.
For Native Americans, the govt’s goal is to take their land and destroy their claims to land - they want LESS Native Americans. That’s why colorblindness is the racism in the midwest and west. That is also why those areas HATE Latino people, even though those people are generally just Native Americans who speak Spanish. That’s why you hear stuff like “We speak English here.” That’s why old John Wayne movies were the way they were. That’s why we had those Native American re-education schools. That’s why we killed so mamy buffalo (to starve them) and the Great Plains to this day has never recovered fully from how many millions of herd animals were killed. It’s why, TO THIS DAY, Christian organizations will adopt Native kids to explicitly white Christian families. It’s why the Mormons are in Utah. It’s why most Native reservations are in extremely inhospitable places (look at the Navajo lands versus nearby in Hatch, NM - the Native people would have lived near Hatch, near water, but we took that from them and gave them barren soil - to kill them).
The racism against Native Americans is like smothering and starving a baby to death, whereas the racism in the south is more like screaming//beating at a baby to depression/“submission”.
Rec reading: Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide by Smith, Andrea
Old cowboys used to cut Native women’s labia off and put it on their saddle horns to play with. The west is racist too.
Greater than just the South, the eugenics movement in the US in the early 20th century, with forced sterilizations and criminalizing interracial marriage, happened nationally.
Though you don’t need to be capitalist to be racist as fuck. Racism exists all over the world in many different government and economic systems throughout all of human history
Indeed, Chicago, until the 1960’s, was one of the most segregated cities in the USA. Irish, Italians, African Americans, Hispanics, etc…during daylight hours, everything was business, but during sunset, nobody crossed the ethnic and racial lines drawn up by the neighborhoods.
I am not sure, but I think Milton Friedman once revealed the depths of his ignorance about racial segregation in the US and that the claim that laws demanding all segregation be dismantled were a violation of the free market principle and that a true free market would dissolve segregation.
Chicago, as you mentioned, was used as an example to show just how dumb he was. Chicago had no official segregation policy. From a purely legal standpoint if an Irishman wanted to get an apartment in a black neighborhood and invite Italian friends over that would be a huge taboo and suffer reprecussions over it even if he wasn’t doing anything remotely illegal.
The only way it COULD have dismantled is to make law to strictly forbid that kind of discrimination on any grounds.
Behind the Nazis is what they learned from Trail of Tears and US antebellum slavery. Behind that, you get Rome.
It’s war. War is behind all fascism.
Facsism is just capitalism when you try to say no.
Understandably, workers didn’t like capitalism. So, when they found out about socialism, many of them grouped up and tried to say no. After which, facsism was made to counter this.
So, I mean literally fascism is just capitalism when you try to say no. You only get mercan staal neo classical economics because you say yes.
It needs another frame showing that feudalism never went away. Capitalism is just a way to walk us all back to feudalism.
Not really. Capitalism was born from feudalism, but is entirely different in character.
It is definitely leading us directly to a type of feudalism though. Where power is held by billionaires and corporations instead of local warlords.
Capitalism is changing, yes, but towards Monopoly Capitalism, aka Imperialism, not feudalism. Centralization of Capitalism isn’t the same as feudalism.
that’s just capitalism, capitalism creates monopoly
Outside of small city states, capitalism came from merchantislism.
Specifically, at the intersection where merchantislism and mass dispossession/theft of people’s land meet.
The only meaningful change is that the assets are now, mostly, intangible and you’re allowed to move to a different parish.
Some people still think billionaires are just like us. They aren’t. Their mentality is 100% different than the average person. Even basic things like their concept of money is extremely different and almost alien to ours. We think of money as the thing that we need to survive, the thing that keeps food on the table and a roof over our heads. Having a good deal of money for the average person is a source of comfort. It allows us to know we don’t have to go hungry and we can afford medical care when we are sick.
For billionaires money is an abstract concept. They operate on such massive sums every day that the idea that a few thousand dollars can make or break someone is inconceivable to them. When Elon Musk bought twitter he was originally kidding, but when the owners forced him to, raising the 44 billion dollars did nothing to harm him. In fact, his net worth increased greatly not too long after he shelled out amounts of money that would literally have ended world hunger several times over. Money is a source of leveraging power for them and they aren’t afraid to ‘lose’ a lot of it because they know they can get it all back with remarkable rapidity.
Borders also don’t exist to them. If Zuckerberg or Bezos wanted to go to India, or Zambia, or China, or Germany, or Finland, or the UAE, or wherever, they doesn’t have to concern themself with things like visas or residencies or whatever. They could go and set up shop wherever and not need to concern themselves with that.
They legit do think of themselves as being gods and are vastly superior to us. Their view of the poor being leeches on society while they are the providers when basically everything shows the opposite is not something they find contradictory. In their minds the population at large exists to serve them, not the other way around. This is why tech bro start ups that have created enclaves in some third world countries and they steal massive public resources for their projects all while imposing their own extra-legal or illegal restrictions on the poor is not seen as a problem because they really do view black and brown people as perpetual slaves that must be shown their place time and time again least they forget.
An anarchist would take off the capitalist mask to reveal hierarchy
Capitalism is a hierarchy so true as well
Wouldn’t the state also be in the frame before the capitalist at the end?
I’m an ML but no, states are more fundamental than capitalism. There were states prior to capitalism and they will likely exist after capitalism, but capitalism cannot exist without a state as the special apparatus of class oppression.
As an ML though you could argue that states are downstream of the economic circumstances that force their development
Yeah, you’re probably right
Stereotypical ml post
machine learning?
Lemmy.ml is what they are talking about.
I thought it was machine learning to, but I am fairly sure it stands for Marxist Leninist.
Unsurprising .world comment
Woo federation
Not really, stereotypical would be having a liberal in the last frame
Is it wrong?
Yes
deleted by creator
IBM, IG Farben, Coca Cola, Hugo Boss, Volkswagen, Krupp, and many others were just doing regular business. And “privatization” definitely wasn’t something invented by the Nazis. Got it.
The order is wrong by like… A significant amount of time. Enough where this is clearly less effort.
OP implied Capitalism isn’t the economic base of fascism, the way I read it and were I’m responding to.
The term privatization was, however, coined to describe what the Nazis were doing during the 1930s.
Yes? What do you think I’m saying?
Which part?
How do you block all .ml posts?
Settings | Block instance 👋
Thank you
you forgot somethingThe State is the weapon by which any class asserts their control, not the other way around.
