A post from 2 months ago which explained the context: https://lemmy.world/post/20694710
I just had a look, nothing has changed, the website is still using Lemmy’s content to pretend to be active
Hello Blaze,
One request, whenever you post about clubsall, can you please tag me so I can also participate? Thank you.
As for this discussion, when we had a discussion last time on reddit, I thought we agreed that as long as there is not meaningful traffic, it should be ok. I guess you were not fully onboard with this.
My request with all admins is - can we agree on some rules. If we block all new sites on hunch or rules as we make up, it will kill anyone trying to do something new.
There was another thread (that I cannot find now) where some rules were proposed. (If someone can find, please reply to this).
There are 2 things being discussed
- federating out
- open sourcing clubsall
I can give an update on both of these. As I mentioned previously, someone was helping me in doing some audit, implementing federation and then we could also open source. We were going to use “sublinks”, which would do a number of upgrades. So that seems the right choice moving forward. It will allow self hosting, federation, move to postgres, move to docker etc.
However during implementation we found that sublinks itself does not implement federation out. So we were blocked by that. I checked with developer just few days ago and I was told that since all developers are volunteers and they got busy, federation was delayed. The work will pickup again in new year.
I am not sure when they will be able to finish federation. I can quickly move there once done. However that seems months away.
In the meantime, can we have a discussion about a set of rules for clarification and fairness?
Let me give you my opinion, specifically as a React developer, if you don’t mind.
And let’s be clear: I intend this to be a constructive criticism. I hope you understand and don’t take it the wrong way.
To be honest, I don’t know how good or bad federating one-way is. This is more of a “people” problem rather than a technical problem.
But, to be honest, what I am bothered by, is the fact that the website doesn’t give an attribution in the UI about which instance certain users are from and which instance certain certain community are from.
Take a look at this post: https://clubsall.com/posts/theyre-trying-to-charge-luigi-with-terrorism-imagine-that-qfF82
The UI says that the post was posted by
u[slash]BytesOnBikes. If I didn’t know better, I’d have assumed this was from a user from clubsall. But if you click the username, you realize that the link saysu[slash]BytesOnBikes[at]slrpnk.net. I think this would be confusing as a user. What if there is the same user under the usernameBytesOnBikesfrom clubsall? At least if you include the instance name, user would know right away that both users are different. But if you didn’t include the instance name, I feel like this can be abused to impersonate user. This is a bad thing to happen to your website, don’t you agree?Now that we both understand that lack of attribution is a bad thing to clubsall… What’s stopping you from adding an instance name to the username? I’m sure the app has a way to know which instance certain users are from. From what I gather, I feel like this is as easy as appending a string in the code.
I haven’t even talked about the community name on the UI. Or the ethicality of misleading attribution.
One request, whenever you post about clubsall, can you please tag me so I can also participate? Thank you.
Sure, I’ll make sure to keep you tagged. I was not sure you were using your Lemmy account, so that’s why I did not tag you in this post.
as long as there is not meaningful traffic, it should be ok
You are channeling the traffic from 44k monthly active users to your website without giving credit to the instances where the content is created.
I just checked, the homepage of Clubsall shows content from !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone, while lemmy.blahaj.zone have you defederated: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, as “clubsall.com” is in the blocked instances.
But if we look at the linked instances, there is now “api.clubsall.com” and “clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.dev”
If we block all new sites on hunch or rules as we make up, it will kill anyone trying to do something new.
Everyone here is trying to make a new platform. Every Lemmy server, as well as Mbin or Piefed, federate content both ways, and allow to go to the original posts from the federated copies.
In the meantime, can we have a discussion about a set of rules for clarification and fairness?
Every admin make their own rules. Feel free to convince them, a few of them are in this thread.
I just checked, the homepage of Clubsall shows content from !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone, while lemmy.blahaj.zone have you defederated: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, as “clubsall.com” is in the blocked instances. But if we look at the linked instances, there is now “api.clubsall.com” and “clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.dev”
This is because federation is fairly complex and we are new to this and do not fully understand. I really do not know why we are getting content from lemmy.blahaj.zone when they have blocked us. The content is coming from federation, so how is it being pushed to clubsall after blocking?
You are channeling the traffic from 44k monthly active users to your website without giving credit to the instances where the content is created. In our last discussion, you said “your site is small, so people just ignore it. Should it become more active, then users are probably going to call their admins to defederate.” ClubsAll has not grown. This time you are saying we are not attributing. It seems even you change mind on to what is fair.
My request stays the same, give us some breathing room until some traffic threshold. Is that fair?
The content is coming from federation, so how is it being pushed to clubsall after blocking?
I blocked your instance based on your domain. But because you are using other domains to pull the content, you’re still receiving content from the domains you use that I haven’t blocked.
My request stays the same, give us some breathing room until some traffic threshold. Is that fair?
What is your plan for what clubsall will look like? I have no interest in killing a new and interesting platform for building community in the lemmy space. But if you’re just going to pull content from lemmy instances without giving anything back, that’s not building community…
Tell me you’ve got plans for something other than a content scraper, and I’ll happily work with you.
Thank you for responding. Here are my plans
- After some discussion with another fediverse developer, he recommended we move to sublinks library. I posted our tech plans here https://lemmy.world/comment/12922172. This will achieve a number of things - move db to postgres, deployment to docker/k8s, enable lemmy clients, make some security changes so our passwords are not exposed, this in turn will enable open sourcing and self hosting. This seems the best path forward.
- We almost completed the move when we found out that sublinks library itself does not have federation implemented. I was told it will be picked up in 2025 but it is also being developer by volunteers, so the timeline is not certain. Since we almost finished move to sublinks, as soon as they have federation, we should be able to move very quickly since work on our side is mostly done.
There is almost no traffic today, users are not missing out on any content. Since the timelines are not in my hands, my ask is for admins to give me benefit of doubt and be patient until I wait for sublinks federation implementation (or if clubsall have traffic in which case, users will be missing out on content. In that case, I will have to think of something else)
- In the long run, idea is to have an simplified fediverse frontend that can realistically be a real open alternative to reddit.
Feel free to ask me anything else.
Thank you for the update. I honestly don’t mind if you’re not there in terms of federating out yet. As long as the plan for the project is to be generate connectivity/community in some way, we’ll be better off for your project being here :)
sublinks library.
Do you mean this? https://github.com/sublinks
There is almost no traffic today, users are not missing out on any content.
If there is almost no traffic today, why do you complain about being defederated?
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com interested in cutting this site off perhaps?
i generally only block for spam or technical/legal reasons.
blocked for technical reason: scraper.
@jerry@fedia.io This seems like a reasonable instance for Fedia to block.
Hello @Chozo@fedia.io and @jerry@fedia.io I am the creator of Clubsall. Can we have a discussion first so we can agree what is fair and I have a chance to save clubsall?
Calling in @jwr1@kbin.earth re possible domain block.
Hello @haverholm@kbin.earth and @jwr1@kbin.earth I am the creator of Clubsall. Please see my update above. Based on previous discussion, I was under the impression that until there is meaningful traffic, it is ok to give us time to implement federation. There were a set of rules proposed in another thread. However, seems like the rules were not finalized or not accepted or not distributed. If those rules are not acceptable, can we have a discussion first so we can agree what is fair and I have a chance to save clubsall?
Look, at a glance it looks to me like you’re populating a monetised platform with content off the fediverse without attribution. That’s strike one.
Then you seem to stall for time to implement federation while admitting your developer quit… and continuing the above content scraping. Strike two.
And from what I read in this thread it appears you’re actively dodging defederation by using subdomains to keep scraping content. Strike three.
My concern in this is the integrity of the fediverse and its users. Yours, apparently, is “saving” a platform that leeches content off federated platforms to make a buck off those users. I don’t see much chance of agreement on “what is fair”.
@jwr1@kbin.earth, I stand by that request to defederate.
Thank you for considering and responding. While I cannot change your mind, I can explain some of the strikes
- This is not monetized platform, there is no way to pay me, no advertisements, no premium plans etc. I am guessing you are saying since it is not open source yet, it is monetized. That will change, we started working on changing architecture to use sublinks, but got stuck as sublinks itself is under development.
- As soon as sublinks federation works, we will be able to adjust quickly. Without this I have only two choices - spend a lot of money or shut it down. I would like to avoid both if possible. Since there is no traffic, I am requesting the community to give us benefit of doubt.
- The developer used various subdomains while trying to implement federation. As far as I know, the final subdomain was api.clubsall.com. My guess is that admins are blocking clubsall.com and not api.clubsall.com. If another subdomain is still active, please let me know.
When the OP was initially made, I actually did end up adding clubsall to the defed. list, but I feel like I might have done that prematurely. I took a brief look at the Clubsall website, and I couldn’t really tell that there was anything inherently evil about it. Sure, the usernames and community names don’t display the server they come from, but I feel like that’s more of a frontend/design decision (any Lemmy frontend or app could do the same), and if you hover over the names on desktop (or click on them), you can see the URL still has the instance of the users and communities. Maybe that’s a good idea for a setting that could be added, where the user can toggle whether the username or community domain is displayed or not.
Yes, there are still many improvements to be made, such as a link back to the original user on their instance would be nice, federation support needs to be worked on, and probably much more. And I will admit, the fact that they don’t currently have a developer doesn’t bode well in fixing some of these issues, but I feel like if we are going to block them, we should come up with some definitive reason, and have it defined in our kbin.earth rules list. If we block clubsall for being closed source and having incomplete federation, then we would need to block threads.net as well (for the same reasons). At the moment, neither of those two technically break our rules; if we were to block them, we would need to make a decision as an instance to add another rule.
The clubsall creator already made a comment in the OP stating that the open sourcing and federation issues were being worked on. I know @vinay_clubsall@lemmy.world isn’t the developer, but maybe he would have some sort of explanation for the additional subdomains that are being used for federation, which appear to be used to dodge defederation (I haven’t personally experienced this though). I try not to assume the worse in a situation, so I’d like to give Clubsall the benefit of the doubt. However, if it is found that they have evil intentions (such as dodging defederation), then I will definitely reblock the domain.
Thank you, this is fair. I can explain subdomains. As far as I know, my developer used some subdomains while developing (and trying to understand and make federation working), but eventually settled on api.clubsall.com (he wasnt able to get clubsall.com working). So as of last few months, only domain being used should be api.clubsall.com. If that is not true, do bring that to my attention please.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. As may be apparent I have spent some time on the microblogging side of the fediverse, where people tend to take less kindly to their content being aggregated without consent. I understand if perhaps sentiments are different in a discussion forum mode, and your decision reflecting that. I appreciate the consideration you put into the matter.
Thanks
Last time they said their developer left. I doubt they found a new one in the meantime so I suspect this site will die soon
I was expecting that too, I was surprised to see it was still online
Websites don’t go offline that fast, especially if there’s sunk costs involved.
I’m unfamiliar with Clubsall. Is it pulling them via federation or fetching via API? Would defederating work? I appear to have already defederated, likely in response to your earlier post, but not sure if that does anything. And that only stops them from pulling content from my instance, not what I posted to any other.
ActivityPub I would say, they show up on https://lemmy.world/instances for instance
api.clubsall.com
clubsall-api.renchesterjramos.workers.dev
clubsall-api.appcafe.workers.dev
clubsall-api3.renchesterjramos.workers.dev
clubsall-api2.appcafe.workers.dev
clubsall-api2.renchesterjramos.workers.dev
clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.devThanks for this, we should get a wiki going somewhere for admins
Please include me
So im a bit confused, if they are federated whats the issue? Is it just a one way street or something?
It’s a one way federation: they only fetch Lemmy’s comment, but don’t allow other instances to get their content.
There are more details in the post linked in the OP
this isn’t entirely true, they do have some comments on lemmy as well, here are some examples:
- https://programming.dev/u/vinaya@api.clubsall.com
- https://programming.dev/u/chester22@api.clubsall.com
- https://programming.dev/u/impresario@api.clubsall.com
- https://programming.dev/u/luckymann@api.clubsall.com
- https://sh.itjust.works/u/BlazeFromLemmy@api.clubsall.com
it seems to be primarily about their communities not federating though i guess?
and either nobody from there posted a post to a lemmy community yet or maybe it doesn’t federate posts currently?
I was talking about the communities indeed.
From the project creator
Sorry you feel that way. Keep in mind that we built everything from scratch. Federation is not currently implemented, and we’ll need time.
ugh, i didn’t notice they’re even hiding domains of remote communities for “simplicity” in most cases. that seems so much more dishonest tbh.
The idea was to simplify federation for a non tech user. I believe that is literally why ActivityPub is not able to effectively compete.
We are trying to simplify by hiding all complexities. If we try nothing new, the results will not change. There have been many threads about ClubsAll and everyone disagrees what is fair and unfair, so it has been difficult for us to comply. Would it be fair to ask for a common set of rules to be fair to everyone and give me a chance to save clubsall?
Yes, the whole thing is fishy
Thanks. I just had the main domain blocked, but I think I needed all of the subdomains as well. From the looks of those worker domains, it may be a cat-mouse game trying to keep them blocked.
What’s the issue with this?
its nonreciprocal for monetary gain.
they seem to be in quite a hurry into ingest remote content while not really creating any method whatsoever to attribute that content to its source, or allow their users to interact.
Hello there, I am the creator of clubsall. We are not in a hurry. In fact as stated, my developer has left, that has halted our development. Also, we are a very small site with < 10 comments a month and I believe 0 posts. So federation will hardly help everyone. Still we want to implement federation, please read my update above.
My request is to agree on common and fair rules so we can be seen as upstanding community participants.
sure. its pretty simple… dont put out a product that cannot participate fully. there are many unfinished platforms, but they dont scrape the fediverse content because, ya know, theyre unfinished.
as soon as you get full federation implemented (or even basic linkbacks to the original content), youre welcome to let everyone know so they stop blocking your scraping mechanism.
until then your unfinished product will likely be blocked.
Thanks for this. My worry is that other admins have different set of rules. Someone said clubsall should be open sourced, someone said clubsall should be self hostable, another person said, it should attribute posts and have canonical links. Unfortunately the admins do not seem to have common agreed set of rules that are fair. So no matter what we do, it seems we will be blocked. Can we have a viable alternative?
There was a discussion about having a common set of rules which had proposal which is different than yours. So I am requesting some breathing room exception based on traffic, so we can survive until we can develop more or there is a common set of rules agreed to. Would that be fair?
i would say youre running before you can walk.
you have an unfinished product, and you say youre in no hurry… then why do you insist on scraping the fediverse?
finish your product, or dont. if you cant, there are plenty of open source platforms you could implement today. but youre not. why not?
if you insist on building a new wheel, finish it already or stop asking why people dont want to interact with you.
The issue is that definition of “finish” varies person to person. This is why I am asking for a common set of fair rules we can agree on, so we can finish.
im tellin ya. make a product that participates and attributes the content back to its source, or dont bother. those are your options.
as it is you are monetizing other sites content with no attribution.
Just saw this and while I can’t check at the moment the instances admins I’ve pinged might want to consider defederating from Clubsall
@snowe@programming.dev @Ategon@programming.dev @mp3@lemmy.ca @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Hi there, I am creator of clubsall. There are a lot of adhoc discussions and rules. Some discussions such as this one does skip my notice too. So it has been very difficult to be fair and run a new instance. It seems anyone trying to build a lemmy competitor is being killed. If that is the rule, lets state that and I will kill clubsall myself.
If not, can I request a discussion or at least a set of rules that we should comply to so I can save clubsall?
@snowe@programming.dev @Ategon@programming.dev @mp3@lemmy.ca @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
My concern is that you receive content from our communities without generating anything back
We have no traffic, so even if we had federation out, we would still generate nothing back. In other words, I am promising to implement federation out before our instance matters.
From what I understand, Clubsall doesn’t allow federation to go both ways and accept that users outside of its domain can participate freely in their communities.
Can’t have it both ways of leeching the posts from other large instances while simultaneously making it an exclusive club where only local users can participate, it goes contrary to the social contract and spirit of the Fediverse.
That is fair to say. We are not trying to have it both ways, just need time to get there. We started with moving to sublinks library. This seems to be the best path forward, but timelines got extended after we found out that federation out is also under development there as well.
Well put
It seems anyone trying to build a lemmy competitor is being killed. If that is the rule, lets state that and I will kill clubsall myself.
Oh yes, that’s probably why https://piefed.social/ and https://kbin.melroy.org/ are never praised as alternatives, nor are they fully compatible with Lemmy both ways.
(For people unaware, they are)
Thanks for replying. I am not sure what is the history or intentions of these instances, but we will certainly get there.
Defederated. If they start federating outwards, I’ll lift it
Well done!
Defederated
