It’s Israel’s stated goal. But without proffering any alternative, it’s rather flimsy as an excuse. They don’t want the PA - hell, Israel funded Hamas specifically to sideline Fatah and the PA - and they’ve done nothing but enable Hamas’s suppression of alternatives in the Gaza Strip. The goal, quite nakedly, is a land grab, and excuses about Hamas are nothing but smokescreen.
Put it this way - if you want to wipe out a country entirely, recognize one group as the ruling authorities (Hamas), and then demand nothing short of that group’s total and unconditional surrender, with the implication that they’ll all be prosecuted as criminals afterwards.
Regimes, and especially gangster regimes like Hamas, generally do not surrender under such circumstances, so it’s carte blanche to continuously attack the country without having to worry about things like “Their government already surrendered, you bombing these cities is starting to look like mass murder”. You can just say, “No, no, the organization says they’re still fighting, so we’re definitely just cleaning up terrorists here! The onus is on them to give themselves up, not for us to stop bombing! The civilians are dead because of THEM, not us!”
I just wanted to add some context though. Hamas enjoys wide support among Palestinians and Hamas’s explicit objective, as outlined in its charter, is the eradication of the state of Israel. If the Palestinian people won’t accept that the Israeli state is here to stay then the differences are to remain irreconcilable. 10 million jews aren’t going to pack up and leave. The 68 borders aren’t happening either, no matter what kind of wishful thinking we employ. This is unfortunate, but it’s the reality we have to contend with sadly.
Don’t get me wrong though: this is no justification to use the security threat as casus belli in the way IDF is conducting this war. Plenty of reprehensible actions coming from the Israeli military. There is absolutely no way forward until the current political regime in Israel is replaced with better leadership.
Hamas enjoys wide support amongst Palestinians because Israel has continuously humiliated the PA by turning every good-faith attempt to interact with Israel into demonstrations of fealty.
Palestinians, by and large, see armed resistance as the path forward - and they may not be wrong. Hamas, however, is the only major player of note embracing armed resistance against the Israeli state, which means their shithead justifications get broader traction than they otherwise would. When Fatah accepted the existence of the state of Israel, Israel immediately started funding Islamist groups to undermine Fatah.
Hamas are shitheads. But the Palestinian support of Hamas is largely because of Israel’s behavior, not because Palestinians (and, I must note in agreement with you here, are hardly free of prejudices themselves) are inherently thirsting for the ethnic cleansing of Israel. They’re the only serious game in town since Israel stopped engaging in the two-state solution in good faith. Israel must change before Hamas can be meaningfully destroyed.
You’re not wrong but you’re also painting with a broad brush, which I understand-- a lot is happening here and very quickly. I always debate if it’s worth getting in the weeds in these types of discussions. For instance: Not Israel, but Netanyahu was responsible for the scheming and funding operations. It gets messy fast.
Edit: I love that I’m getting down voted not only for agreeing, but providing nuance and additional detail. As if my comments are exonorating the actions of IDF. Stay classy I guess.
It’s Israel’s stated goal. But without proffering any alternative, it’s rather flimsy as an excuse. They don’t want the PA - hell, Israel funded Hamas specifically to sideline Fatah and the PA - and they’ve done nothing but enable Hamas’s suppression of alternatives in the Gaza Strip. The goal, quite nakedly, is a land grab, and excuses about Hamas are nothing but smokescreen.
Put it this way - if you want to wipe out a country entirely, recognize one group as the ruling authorities (Hamas), and then demand nothing short of that group’s total and unconditional surrender, with the implication that they’ll all be prosecuted as criminals afterwards.
Regimes, and especially gangster regimes like Hamas, generally do not surrender under such circumstances, so it’s carte blanche to continuously attack the country without having to worry about things like “Their government already surrendered, you bombing these cities is starting to look like mass murder”. You can just say, “No, no, the organization says they’re still fighting, so we’re definitely just cleaning up terrorists here! The onus is on them to give themselves up, not for us to stop bombing! The civilians are dead because of THEM, not us!”
Pug,
I respect you and I agree with your take.
I just wanted to add some context though. Hamas enjoys wide support among Palestinians and Hamas’s explicit objective, as outlined in its charter, is the eradication of the state of Israel. If the Palestinian people won’t accept that the Israeli state is here to stay then the differences are to remain irreconcilable. 10 million jews aren’t going to pack up and leave. The 68 borders aren’t happening either, no matter what kind of wishful thinking we employ. This is unfortunate, but it’s the reality we have to contend with sadly.
Don’t get me wrong though: this is no justification to use the security threat as casus belli in the way IDF is conducting this war. Plenty of reprehensible actions coming from the Israeli military. There is absolutely no way forward until the current political regime in Israel is replaced with better leadership.
Hamas enjoys wide support amongst Palestinians because Israel has continuously humiliated the PA by turning every good-faith attempt to interact with Israel into demonstrations of fealty.
Palestinians, by and large, see armed resistance as the path forward - and they may not be wrong. Hamas, however, is the only major player of note embracing armed resistance against the Israeli state, which means their shithead justifications get broader traction than they otherwise would. When Fatah accepted the existence of the state of Israel, Israel immediately started funding Islamist groups to undermine Fatah.
Hamas are shitheads. But the Palestinian support of Hamas is largely because of Israel’s behavior, not because Palestinians (and, I must note in agreement with you here, are hardly free of prejudices themselves) are inherently thirsting for the ethnic cleansing of Israel. They’re the only serious game in town since Israel stopped engaging in the two-state solution in good faith. Israel must change before Hamas can be meaningfully destroyed.
You’re not wrong but you’re also painting with a broad brush, which I understand-- a lot is happening here and very quickly. I always debate if it’s worth getting in the weeds in these types of discussions. For instance: Not Israel, but Netanyahu was responsible for the scheming and funding operations. It gets messy fast.
Edit: I love that I’m getting down voted not only for agreeing, but providing nuance and additional detail. As if my comments are exonorating the actions of IDF. Stay classy I guess.