Also, at what point do you tip into you-dont-get-choose-your-job land? Is it still considered freedom if you are required to have a job to serve basic needs of the larger community? For example, we need more doctors even without universal healthcare in the US. If we covered the basic needs of everyone, wouldn’t we have to require some people to become doctors, who are not on that trajectory today?
If doctors would be paid what managers are paid today, I’m sure there will be enough incentive. Essential jobs need to pay what they’re worth, which is more than any other jobs
A lot of those businesses still need to exist for society to function. They could be restructured into non-profits, but they’ll still exist.
There will always be a need for jobs that people aren’t going to just do for the hell of it. No one enjoys breaking their back harvesting crops or digging ditches.
I’m not saying the current system is any good, but the idea of no one having to work if they don’t want to is not obtainable without some serious advances in robotics.
The point of UBI isn’t to allow anyone to not work if they don’t want to. It’s so that everyone can live securely while still contributing to keeping society running, and allow those who can’t work to live without worry about survival.
You can’t have UBI without workers. It’s still working to survive, just with a massive safety net.
Even if you could wave a magic wand and magically convert all that net worth straight across into that amount of cold hard cash, it wouldn’t pay for a measly $10k UBI for all working-age Americans for more than two years.
Then what’s the plan? That 10k costs over $2 trillion.
Get this, those billionaires control the production and distribution of these basic necessities, and attributing a monetary figure to it is the problem. It doesn’t cost money, it costs labor. You get the labor in exchange for fun stuff. This is the crux of the issue. We need a system that can’t be gamed to incentivize hoarding whatever it is we use to denote the worth of labor, as cash does today.
It has nothing to do with cost, it has to do with ridding the problem of the people hoarding the excess wealth for the benefit of an arbitrary group. Where the labor comes do the profits go. If a private individual puts in labor, and that generates a profit from itself, then yeah, they get that. They earned that. The nuance is that they have a community, infrastructure, all of the things supporting their ability to do anything, so any profit comes from the community in some fashion.
We need to get rid of systems of hoarding. 100% tax above whatever 100x the poverty line is, for everyone, that gets dumped into government coffers to subsidize all essential labor. This incentivizes the extra profits to go to the UBI coffers instead of individuals while still giving a huge ceiling to make extra money for labor that generates profit.
I’m just reiterating what Marx was saying. We need to stop focusing on the money aspect and focus on the labor.
Then, hopefully, during those 2 years of not having to be afraid for their lives if they lose a job, working-age Americans would get together and establish actual socialism
True, but how many people actually work to make that happen?
Most people I know work for a company that works for a company to increase the profit of another company.
Also, at what point do you tip into you-dont-get-choose-your-job land? Is it still considered freedom if you are required to have a job to serve basic needs of the larger community? For example, we need more doctors even without universal healthcare in the US. If we covered the basic needs of everyone, wouldn’t we have to require some people to become doctors, who are not on that trajectory today?
If doctors would be paid what managers are paid today, I’m sure there will be enough incentive. Essential jobs need to pay what they’re worth, which is more than any other jobs
A lot of those businesses still need to exist for society to function. They could be restructured into non-profits, but they’ll still exist.
There will always be a need for jobs that people aren’t going to just do for the hell of it. No one enjoys breaking their back harvesting crops or digging ditches.
I’m not saying the current system is any good, but the idea of no one having to work if they don’t want to is not obtainable without some serious advances in robotics.
If harvesting crops would pay six figures, I’m sure there’d be enough willing people
Where’s that money going to come from?
The point of UBI isn’t to allow anyone to not work if they don’t want to. It’s so that everyone can live securely while still contributing to keeping society running, and allow those who can’t work to live without worry about survival.
You can’t have UBI without workers. It’s still working to survive, just with a massive safety net.
From net worth of all millionaires and billionaires, where it’s not currently being used for anything worthwhile.
UBI is only the first step towards actual redistribution of wealth
Even if you could wave a magic wand and magically convert all that net worth straight across into that amount of cold hard cash, it wouldn’t pay for a measly $10k UBI for all working-age Americans for more than two years.
Then what’s the plan? That 10k costs over $2 trillion.
Get this, those billionaires control the production and distribution of these basic necessities, and attributing a monetary figure to it is the problem. It doesn’t cost money, it costs labor. You get the labor in exchange for fun stuff. This is the crux of the issue. We need a system that can’t be gamed to incentivize hoarding whatever it is we use to denote the worth of labor, as cash does today.
It has nothing to do with cost, it has to do with ridding the problem of the people hoarding the excess wealth for the benefit of an arbitrary group. Where the labor comes do the profits go. If a private individual puts in labor, and that generates a profit from itself, then yeah, they get that. They earned that. The nuance is that they have a community, infrastructure, all of the things supporting their ability to do anything, so any profit comes from the community in some fashion.
We need to get rid of systems of hoarding. 100% tax above whatever 100x the poverty line is, for everyone, that gets dumped into government coffers to subsidize all essential labor. This incentivizes the extra profits to go to the UBI coffers instead of individuals while still giving a huge ceiling to make extra money for labor that generates profit.
I’m just reiterating what Marx was saying. We need to stop focusing on the money aspect and focus on the labor.
Then, hopefully, during those 2 years of not having to be afraid for their lives if they lose a job, working-age Americans would get together and establish actual socialism
Things like this is why Dems lost the election
This kind of make believe talk makes you look as if you live in another reality apart from your voters
And then you guys ask yourselves why you lost The election?
You don’t see it
Are these dems in the room with us right now?
$10k would definitely not make me stop caring about whether I lose my job, lol.
That networth isn’t cash on hand. It’s comprised of assets that can’t be instantly converted into cash.
And like the other person said, it’s not nearly enough for UBI.
I specifically mean those companies that do not directly add to the jobs that “need” to be done.
My feeling is that more people work bullshit jobs because they pay better than e.g. harvesting crops or driving a bus.
They work bullshit jobs because harvesting crops and driving a bus are shitty jobs that basically no one wants to do.
I used to work those shitty jobs, and pay wasn’t the issue
If more people would work those jobs, each would have to do less of it
You make them then. Force them to do it.