That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them… I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do.
I am not claiming I have a solution. Far from it. I am in no position of authority or influence. In fact, it’s not my responsibility to fix the conflict. I am merely condemning the assault, rape, and murder of innocent people. I do not believe there is any justification for this.
A better way was offered at Camp David in 2000. Arafat walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer. Israeli PM Barak offered deeply unpopular and unprecedented concessions. Saudi prince Bandar described not accepting the deal or negotiating further as criminal. Arafat won popularity when he walked away.
That is just one incident in a long and complicated history, but the point is that there’s more than enough blame to go around and there were other options.
Time and again, both parties chose to continue further down this road. They’ll likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I say likely, because that isn’t even the worst case scenario. Israel’s government is arguably borderline far right now, so it’s not impossible that this will all escalate so much that there one way or another, it’s ‘resolved’ through outright violence.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
I don’t understand how that is a response or argument. I agree with your description of events. I’m disagreeing with the response. Yes, they’ve been treated unfairly. No, beating, raping, and murdering innocent people is not an acceptable response.
I’m not defending Hamas/Hezbollah/terrorism but the Israeli State - and anybody paying attention - doesn’t get to act all surprised at this result when you repress a population.
The status quo of Israel, Gaza, and Palestine is a deliberate product of those in control of the situation - and the populations are the ones that suffer the consequences.
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
The point is they’re actually there, have been living in the situation, and are doing something. You’re only response is that that isn’t allowed. You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut if the most helpful thing you have to add is “not that.” It was brutal and horrible before this and it’ll be brutal and horrible after.
You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut
You realize that applies to you equally, right? I hope you do. Because this is the dishonesty I’m talking about.
In actually, I have as much right as you to comment on this situation, especially since this is an internet forum where the whole point is discussion. So “keep your mouth shut” is just about the most useless comment ever, and should be heeded by those who think to say it.
So, yes. I am well within my rights to say that murdering hundreds of civilians at a music festival, and raping, beating, and parading naked a foreign national are not the right way to go about protesting oppression by the Israeli government. Just as you are well within your rights to argue that those are acceptable things to do. It’s an awful thing for you to defend, but you’re allowed to express that opinion.
Absolutely it applies equally to me. Where did I say they should or shouldn’t be doing anything?
You have the right to say whatever you want. War is nasty, and a weaker forcer fighting a stronger force is usually even worse. They can’t win a head on attack. The only reasonable option is guerilla attacks on targets of opportunity. I’m not going to say what those targets are allowed to be or what tools or methods they’re allowed to employ.
The people of Israel have elected far-right leaders with Zionist ideals. Not all of them obviously, but all of them did have a choice. If they finally faced consequences for Zionism they might change their mind. I doubt that’ll happen with this (it’ll probably make it worse) but if things fall together in the right way it could. I don’t know what other options they have other than keep getting murdered and having their houses stolen.
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
Sure I can. They turned to terrorists who murder innocent civilians. They should not do that.
What alternative do they have?
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
I am not claiming I have a solution. Far from it. I am in no position of authority or influence. In fact, it’s not my responsibility to fix the conflict. I am merely condemning the assault, rape, and murder of innocent people. I do not believe there is any justification for this.
A better way was offered at Camp David in 2000. Arafat walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer. Israeli PM Barak offered deeply unpopular and unprecedented concessions. Saudi prince Bandar described not accepting the deal or negotiating further as criminal. Arafat won popularity when he walked away.
That is just one incident in a long and complicated history, but the point is that there’s more than enough blame to go around and there were other options.
Time and again, both parties chose to continue further down this road. They’ll likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I say likely, because that isn’t even the worst case scenario. Israel’s government is arguably borderline far right now, so it’s not impossible that this will all escalate so much that there one way or another, it’s ‘resolved’ through outright violence.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
Yes. All of that is correct. And still there are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.”
I don’t understand how that is a response or argument. I agree with your description of events. I’m disagreeing with the response. Yes, they’ve been treated unfairly. No, beating, raping, and murdering innocent people is not an acceptable response.
they can not do that.
“Have you tried not being repressed?”
More like, “have you tried attacking only military targets and not massacring civilians”?
I’m not defending Hamas/Hezbollah/terrorism but the Israeli State - and anybody paying attention - doesn’t get to act all surprised at this result when you repress a population.
The status quo of Israel, Gaza, and Palestine is a deliberate product of those in control of the situation - and the populations are the ones that suffer the consequences.
And get crushed by Israel? That’s not a choice.
Supporting Hamas is what is going to get them crushed even further.
They’ve getting crushed brutally for decades. Hamas has only been in power since 2006.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171209-remembering-the-first-intifada-2/
Because killing unarmed civilians definitely gives them a military advantage in the conflict /s
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
I love the dishonest replies that pretend “not that” means “nothing at all.”
The point is they’re actually there, have been living in the situation, and are doing something. You’re only response is that that isn’t allowed. You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut if the most helpful thing you have to add is “not that.” It was brutal and horrible before this and it’ll be brutal and horrible after.
You realize that applies to you equally, right? I hope you do. Because this is the dishonesty I’m talking about.
In actually, I have as much right as you to comment on this situation, especially since this is an internet forum where the whole point is discussion. So “keep your mouth shut” is just about the most useless comment ever, and should be heeded by those who think to say it.
So, yes. I am well within my rights to say that murdering hundreds of civilians at a music festival, and raping, beating, and parading naked a foreign national are not the right way to go about protesting oppression by the Israeli government. Just as you are well within your rights to argue that those are acceptable things to do. It’s an awful thing for you to defend, but you’re allowed to express that opinion.
Absolutely it applies equally to me. Where did I say they should or shouldn’t be doing anything?
You have the right to say whatever you want. War is nasty, and a weaker forcer fighting a stronger force is usually even worse. They can’t win a head on attack. The only reasonable option is guerilla attacks on targets of opportunity. I’m not going to say what those targets are allowed to be or what tools or methods they’re allowed to employ.
The people of Israel have elected far-right leaders with Zionist ideals. Not all of them obviously, but all of them did have a choice. If they finally faced consequences for Zionism they might change their mind. I doubt that’ll happen with this (it’ll probably make it worse) but if things fall together in the right way it could. I don’t know what other options they have other than keep getting murdered and having their houses stolen.
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
I hope these dumbasses grow up a bit.
I’m sure you’ll change their views. Godspeed!