Both groups are in the wrong here. Palestine shouldn’t be doing shit like this, neither should Israel.
To me at least it seems like Israel was holding back pretty hard. Seems like they could’ve glassed Gaza a long time ago
But Israel is blockading Gaza.
Palestine is so beaten down and institutionally broken that Palestine can’t do anything, this is Hamas pretending they speak for Palestine and Palestinians.
‘well the nazis are bad, but the people killing nazis are bad for doing violence’
Let’s be clear that this is Hamas though, it’s not correct to say that it’s Palestine, regardless if the actions of Hamas are supported more broadly.
Let’s be clear that this is Hamas though, it’s not correct to say that it’s Palestine
Honestly not trying to choose sides here, but my understanding was that Hamas was voted into government by the palestinian people.
It’s why Israel can declare war on Hamas, it’s an official government.
So unless the vote was fraudulent…
good, love that, kill the settlers
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Oh fuck off. These actions are abhorrent, but that is the fault of Hamas, not Islam. Israel commits countless crimes against humanity but that’s not an excuse for anti semitism.
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Wait till you see Muslims in muslim majority countries celebrating the attacks.
Such narrow vision guy.
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“In the back of a truck” is pretty much the definition of a parade float.
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https://www.timesnownews.com/world/israeli-woman-soldier-naked-on-a-car-assaulted-by-hamas-militants-video-surfaces-article-104235709/amp heavily censored video in context. doesn’t look like recovery.
Yeah if those dudes were rescuers they would have a) given her a blanket (or the shirt off their own back, how about?) for modesty and to help prevent shock for the obviously broken leg, and b) wouldn’t have been yanking her head around by the dreadlocks.
Those men in the truck and on that street, shouting “allahu akbar”, revolt other humans and make atheism the only worthy belief system.
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Who gives a fuck is the more important question. What a time for pedantry.
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He didn’t see any marching bands. Everyone knows you can’t have a parade without a marching band.
Antisemitism. Welcome to being Jewish on the internet.
The more you say that when it isn’t true, the less meaning it has.
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Reality.
Hamas fighters
They’re terrorists. Hamas is the richest terrorist organization in the world. Their headquarters are in Qatar, which pulls the strings and spreading hate against Jewish people (not just Israel). Don’t believe me? Check it out for yourself. One of Hamas’ goals is to exterminate the Jewish people all over the world!
They don’t give a shit about Palestinian people. It’s not about that at all.
As far as I know their biggest backers are Iran. Is that not still the case? Legitimate question here.
I think “exterminating Jewish people all over the world” is hyperbolic, but their original 1988 charter does specifically call for the complete destruction of the Israeli state and the formation of Palestine via holy war. It’s 100% an anti-semitic document, and debatably genocidal. An attempt to kill an ethnic group doesn’t need to be world-wide to be genocidal.
Their new 2017 charter is fair bit more moderate, and calls for the 1967 borders. Whether the new document is about PR or if they’ve actually become more moderate is a question that is being answered by their treatment of civilians now, imho.
Iran also backs Hamas and other terror organizations in the middle east. But it’s not possible to ignore that Qatar gives them shelter. Everybody knows about the Iranian government, but Qatar is not mentioned enough in these cases. I only saw posts about Qatar’s inner stuff, and it was mostly because they hosted the soccer events recently.
I think “exterminating Jewish people all over the world” is hyperbolic, but their original 1988 charter does specifically call for the complete destruction of the Israeli state and the formation of Palestine via holy war. It’s 100% an anti-semitic document, and debatably genocidal. An attempt to kill an ethnic group doesn’t need to be world-wide to be genocidal.
removed de-colonization is destroying the colonizer state
This is who you’re supporting when you support Palestine.
This is why you should support Israel
I support the innocent and the oppressed. turns out that includes Palestinians and Israelis.
When you support Hamas. One is a political and terrorist organisation which is behind those atrocities, the other a nationality. Would you say that all ww2 era Germans were Nazi?
yes, if you don’t resist fascism and benefit from it, you are a fascisst
that it fact
They’re both terrible. Why should anyone have to support either? Does it have to be a choice?
Just as a little reality check for all Hamas “fans” out here which are actually comparing them to Israel. The Hamas is founded on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are a fairytale full of antisemitism and proven, false statements about Jews and how they are responsible for every bad thing that happens during the centuries and their diabolical plot for world domination (of course one of the favorite lecture of the Nazis)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Those idiots are really believing this fairytale and they use it to justify the murder of innocent people and Jews in general. So the next time you step in in defense of the Hamas or when you compare them to Israel, keep in mind that they are doing this because they believe in some antisemitic fairytale written by a crazy Russian back in the old days…they are basically Scientology only more degenerated and more violent.
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This is no religion, this is a “all Jews a bad and should be euthanized” book. This is far beyond any religion and just degenerated nonsense. I get that you can misinterpret any religion but here you don’t need any interpretation, this book is just evil.
None of them are, god isn’t real. There is no one they are fighting for, just their own ideals they made up to control people. You can’t argue that if Israel could wipe Hamas from the world they wouldn’t do so immediately, no different than the other way. Stop pretending one group of fake deity worshipers is better than another because they killed someone yesterday instead of the week before.
Again the Hamas is not based on a misinterpretation of a religion, they are based on a book that simply want the Jews wiped out. I’m sorry but based on that they are just savages that just want to se the Jews dead because of some conspiracy bullshit.
I would agree on that neither the Israelis or the Palestinians are saints in this conflict and need to get their shit together but the Hamas are just scum with no respect for human life either Israelis nor Palestinians, they basically share the same values as the Nazis regarding the Jewish population and want to wipe them out at the cost of the life of their own people .
In fairness, it’s a lot easier to convince people that whenever you know that group is actually stealing their land.
Obviously anti-Semitism is wrong, but what we see in Israel is not due to their religion, but due to their authoritarian bend n their leadership. Right wing authoritarianism is wrong, regardless of where it is and who does it.
I think Israel is hiding behind anti-Semitism to commit atrocities.
While I’m sure some of them think that, I’d wager the vast majority just want to stop being oppressed by Zionists.
You do know there is a blockade of Gaza, right?
or when you compare them to Israel
Killing others, because of some “fairytale” religion or book that justifies dehumanizing the other side? That’s not like Israel? In what way?
As much as the orthodox scholars would like to insist otherwise, Israel is not a theocracy.
Zionism is a fundamentally nationalist project, and early Israel quashed attempts to root the founding of the state in religious zealotry.
You’ll be able to spot this in phenomena like how major Israeli political parties actually represent splinters between different ethnicities of Israeli jews, notably the difference between Ashkenazi Jews and Russian jews.
More starkly, ethiopian jews get treated little better than israeli arabs, who also have their own political party within the knesset.
In a way Israel is actually a microcosm of a larger clash between the western perspective and the perspective of the muslim world. The west keeps trying to fight Islamism with nationalism, and likewise islamists keep trying to fight nationalism with islamism. There can’t be a discussion because the two “sides” of the “debate” aren’t even agreeing on what’s being talked about.
What gets even weirder is how this has caused weird flips in political alignment. Because of MBS’ influence, the more influential secular movements in the Arab world tend to be Dictatorial or even outright Monarchist, while in the west Monarchy and Authoritarian movements are currently heavily associated with christian fundamentalism. Meanwhile the more “democratic” movements are heavily rooted in Islamist politics. Erdogan’s Turkey loves that scene, and has started getting involved in proxy wars to prop up other Turkey style republics headed by islamist parties.
BTW this is why the Muslim Brotherhood was able to win elections in Egypt following the arab spring before the new dictatorship took root. The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be a kind of almost Reaganist/Nixonian party that touts itself as the democratic alternative for frustrated “common sense conservative” folks in the middle east, silent majority rhetoric and all.
Yeah, I agree it’s not entirely a theocracy. It’s actually more driven by supremacy with Zionism (which is a political religious ideology just like Islamism or Hindu Extremism, etc).
Israel basically created the monster that is Hamas today because they funded the radical islamists to take away support for the more leftist PLO.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
So?
What do you mean so, the Israeli apartheid state took power away from the people they could negotiate with and gave it to barbaric terrorists.
Lay down with dogs wake up with fleas sorta thing
So innocent Israelis deserve to die for what their government did decades ago?
Not deserve, but they made their bed, now they’re lying in it. This is a tragic but inevitable turn of events.
So innocent Palestinians deserve to die for something an extremist faction of their society did? Repeatedly? Threatened with literal extinction?
nothing, just wanted to point out that they did it not intentionally. That’s what can happen when you support a group in another country as a counterweight to their political ideology. It can aid your country or it can bite you in the ass.
A rare circumstance where both sides are indeed bad
out of mistake I would say.
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Hey, how come Egypt and Jordan won’t accept Palestinians settlers?
Also cute af that you think Israelis are white nationalists. The actual bigot here might be you homie.
I never said they were ‘white nationalists.’ Zionism, by definition, is religious nationalism though. Jews, on average, are whiter than Arabs. It is another example of whites getting their way while browns get fucked.
Hey, how come Egypt and Jordan won’t accept Palestinians settlers?
You tell me.
The actual bigot here might be you homie.
Might want to leave the personal insults at home. They just make your argument look weak.
Might want to leave the personal insults at home. They just make your argument look weak.
Uhh, they werent insulting you, they were cautioning you that your views are pretty clearly warped.
And no, it didn’t make their argument look weak.
Nah, he had to resort to personal insults because he didn’t have a strong argument.
And no, it didn’t make their argument look weak.
You only say that because you agree with him and you’re biased.
No you just took it personally, ironically making your argument look weak.
Nope his argument is strong
Lol, what? A personal insult was taken personally?
My god, the mental gymnastics among ya’ll. You should be olympic gold medalists.
Cool story bruh
a fairytale full of antisemitism
So they are racist against themselves?
what?
He’s playing a semantic game because Palestinians fall under the description of ‘semite’ despite the fact that, in the basic vernacular, ‘antisemite’ means someone who hates Jews. They know this, you know this, I know this. But they want to play a little game.
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I hate these types of games. I’m an antisemantic.
He’s pretending that he doesn’t know that “antisemitic” is a word that has been used exclusively to mean anti-Jewish for … What 50 years? More?
video because none of these media sites ever link or post this typa stuff: https://www.bitchute.com/video/z3J1uFqKaCLV/ identified by the tatoos on her legs
btw if any one knows of any good resource for collections of raw videos and stuff please share. I hate having to OSINT literally every thing that happens because social media is notorious for deleting these videos fast and by then it sometimes snowballs into fake news, propaganda, or incorrect information.
Your link doesn’t work, or st least it seems to be unavailable for viewers in Europe.
For me it shows you need to register to see it. NSFL video from X: https://twitter.com/GoldenR_Fella/status/1710980493351461142
Viewing of this video is limited, as it has been marked as Not Safe For Life (NSFL).
This video contains graphic content that most people will find upsetting, and it is recommended that you view with extreme caution.
Please see the Community Guidelines for more details.
If you would still like to view this video you will need to: or
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Last I heard Israel is a legitimate country created in agreement by the UN.
Whether YOU personally agree it should exist or not is a different subject.
I hate the Israeli government and the direction it is taking in these recent times but:
- Gaza wasn’t stolen, it was literally given back in 2005
- Hamas took power in 2007 and hasn’t left ever since.
I don’t condone the extension of settlement nor brainwashing of the population but if you’re against thevery existence of the state of Israel then we don’t have much to talk about.
The fact that Isreal was created in agreement with the UN does not change a thing for the palestinians who lost their homes in the process. The UN did not have the right to do that and the zionists in the early days behaved much like the hamas do now.
Watch the documentary, The Mayor, and then tell me your opinions on Israel / Palestine. Palestinians are brutalized. Israel is a shit state, regarding policy. I don’t condone violence. Israel brings violence upon itself via violence against Palestinians.
Palestine brings violence against itself via violence against Israelis. Blowing up public busses, nightclubs, open air markets, in a way specifically designed to cause mass casualty, does wonders to make the average Israeli not give a fuck about the Palestinian cause or the righteousness or lack thereof of the Israeli government. Showing me lopsided casualty reports does not change this reality.
I don’t really blame them. Were I in their position, I’d probably be doing exactly what they’re doing. They’re fighting for their existence against a whole world that wants them dead. That’s gotta make you feel so hopeless, you stop caring about the humanity of your oppressors. Might as well hurt them as much as possible before they kill you off.
Better than sitting around for Israel to murder you for your land. I wish the Palestinians luck in their fight, and I hope they bring such deep and unwavering sadness to Israel that the very rocks of that defiled land weep blood at their folly.
Gaza wasn’t stolen, it was literally given back in 2005
They had to evict a bunch of isrealis from their homes to do so, I remember watching videos of that online when it happened.
Gaza is being blockaded, not allowing food, water, and really just anything inside. They are committing genocide RIGHT NOW. Palestine will fight back.
I don’t think many people are against the existence of the state of Israel.
Many people, however, are against the official and unofficial policies of the state of Israel, where they simply allow right extremist settlers steal houses from Palestinians, and if these people resist the state is all to happy to defend their own, even though all the actions are plain and simply WRONG. I’m not even saying illegal here because half the time thee actions are perfectly legal within the state of Israel.
Israel as a state is fine, the right extremists that would love to orchestrate a genocide of their own, you know, a bit of pat back, is not.
Hamas took power in 2007 and hasn’t left ever since.
Not accurate. Hamas was denied power when they won 2006 election, voted by the people off course. Fatah still wanted to cling to power even though they lost. And The West wanted Fatah to remain even though they lost democratically because Fatah can be brought into nego and Hamas is a designated as a terrorist org by them, off course. At the end, Hamas was only able to administer Gaza as that’s where Fatah wasn’t able to exert their control.
Animals. Seriously.
There is exactly nothing I can say about Hamas or Isreal that doesn’t make me seem like a huge piece of shit. What a shitty situation between 2 shitty groups and it’s unfortunate others are being pulled into it.
I think it’s a containment zone at this point.
As expected from Uncle Iroh. It’s a horrible situation all around.
Even iroh wouldn’t side with terrorists. Specially iroh
Yeah at this point the world would do well to either put a giant glass dome over them. Soundproof, of course.
Hopefully it’s air leak proof too.
There is a novel by Stephen King “Under the Dome”. A tv series also was made with similar name.
is the joke that you want them all to suffocate to death?
Well, actually… Chernobyl has shown us how to establish a long lasting war-free zone.
Most peaceful place on Earth, even while surrounded by an ongoing war, self-preserving whether soldiers know to not dig trenches in the red forest or not, great for nature and wildlife, and it’s going to be like that for the next 20,000 years or so.
If evangelicals have their say, they might get something similar going on in the region:
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/israeli-us-evangelical-alliance-zionism-antisemitism
Pripyat should be habitable again in the next 200-300 years. We may not survive that long, but the radiation levels are checked pretty regularly, and steadily dropping. The Sarcophagus may take a bit longer than that before it’s safe to clean up.
Well, actually… Chernobyl has shown us how to establish a long lasting war-free zone.
Actually, no.
-
Captured on February 24th.
-
Ran away with radiation poisoning on April 1st.
Sounds like a decent war-free area.
-
Israel is far from perfect, but they are WAY better than the Muslim terrorist skum that is hamas.
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How many Israeli soldiers paraded around naked bodies of innocent people they murdered?
How many Israeli soldiers attacked people at a music festival?
Israel is not innocent but the levels evil displayed by Hamas are horrifying.
I can’t point you to specific circumstances that match your exact descriptions, but the IDF kills Palestinians fairly frequently, often just walking around or at their homes. Is that better? It’s like breeding contempt in people causes them to do horrible things out of hatred.
Israel literally exists because western nations divided land and gave it to Jewish settlers, who then captured more land through war and has continuously extended its colonial efforts.
This isn’t to justify anything, just to provide context. Israel isn’t any better. Zionism is pure evil, and Israel currently runs on zionism.
I haven’t read of any cases of the IDF killing innocent people walking around their homes. If true that’s terrible. Do you have a source for that.
The target killing was an IDF policy to take out terrorists when they didn’t pose an immediate threat.
The "innocen"t teen was a member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a terrorists organization, this was confirmed by his own social media posts and PIJ claiming him as a martyr.
The 3rd article outlines terrible behavior and cover-ups of killing innocent people. I am glad many soldiers have reported these incidents, that’s how reform starts.
The last link is just a Google query, because of how google works I cannot verify that the searches I am seeing are the ones you see. Most of mine were links to the current attacks or to the other articles you cited.
That you, Shapiro?
53% of Palestinians (not only Gazans, where the % is likely significantly higher) are supporters of Hamas.
Source:
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
the rest of them support fatah who just released a statement condoning the attacks.
When ISIS shot up a israeli civilian, Palestinians (both in gaza and west bank) was cheering FOR ISIS.
There is no alternative. Palestine is a failed Islamist state.
The absurd thing is that Israel helped create and fund Hamas initially as a counterweight to the largely secular leftist Palestine Liberation Organization under Yasser Arafat. This whole situation is partially blowback from an Israeli effort to divide-and-conquer Palestine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/opinion/letters/israel-gaza-palestinians.html
In 1981, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, Israel’s military governor of Gaza, told me that he was giving money to the Muslim Brotherhood, the precursor of Hamas, on the instruction of the Israeli authorities. The funding was intended to tilt power away from both Communist and Palestinian nationalist movements in Gaza, which Israel considered more threatening than the fundamentalists.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says [retired Israeli official Avner Cohen], a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.
The secular PLO has now largely been supplanted by Hamas in Gaza.
Blowback like this is the hidden story of the modern age. Every world and regional power has attempted it and been burned, multiple times over.
Heck, one could argue it’s exactly what happened in 1776, and the trend has never stopped!
Your own source contradicts you about the Fatah number…
You’re not supposed to read the links…
/s
Seriously tho, it’s a huge problem on lemmy where people just throw a random link in a comment and nobody checks it
I noticed that since the day I got here. If you spoke shit on Reddit you were destroyed by fact checkers. That doesn’t happen here.
Not praising Reddit. Not condemning Lemmy. Just stating an observation.
Or banned by hyper partisan mods.
Fediverse is really feifdomverse.
It will take years for communities to shake out the power hungry morons who jumped here for the sole purpose of being in charge.
Probably just fewer people, so less likely to have that 1% that actually read the links.
People in this thread are far too busy comparing the situation to anime or star wars to read about it and form their own opinions.
Support of Hamas is not the same as not condoning the attacks, it’s a false dichotomy. Of course it helps that they’re very anti-Israel, but it’s not necessarily a 1:1 thing. They also provide necessities in the Gaza Strip, so people tend to support them because they appreciate things like healthcare and food.
Yeah it’s almost like Israel has been sabotaging all peace talks for decades.
The only side in this conflict that could have ended it was Israel, back when Palestine was not controlled by Hamas, but they instead chose to destroy any chance at that.
And then they of course continued to blockade Gaza, starve people, block their access to water, continue illegal settlements, and so on.
Israel is a genocidal fascist state.
not more than palestine.
jews and palestinians are more safer in israel than in palestine.
The people in Palestine are unsafe because of the powerful fashist state trying to wipe them out.
Jews and Palestinians in Israel are safer because they have all the military power and funding from the American religious quacks.
It’s not a fair comparison.
Edit: leaving the typo for context further down
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The person above me made a grammatical error. I didn’t call them out nor do I think it voids an otherwise perfectly coherent statement. This is because I’m not a cunt.
Also can you point out what I misspelt, my phone’s dictionary isnt’t complaining. Thank you.
You spelt fascist as fashist but it is still perfectly readable to anyone.
I always answer surveys about the local killers accurately.
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Israel took their lands and kicked them out of their houses, kills them by the hundreds, the world does nothing because Israel is a friend of the US who do you think they are going to turn to if not to rebels?
ukrainians were treated worse. did they kill and rape civilians intentionally? meanwhile
If Palestine stop fighting there would be peace. If Israel stop fighting there will be no. Israel. each time Palestinians are the aggressors. [
Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces.](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war#:~:text=Fighting began with attacks by,%2C settlements%2C and armed forces.)
Israel is not the aggressor. Both the war of Independence (1948) and the Yom Kippur war (1973) were initiated by Arab forces. The Six-day war was initiated by Israel, but it was a preemptive strike and there’s no doubt the Arabs were planning on attacking sooner rather than later, so you can count that in as well.
Oh, and I guess you can count some of the bigger escalations between Israelis and Palestinians as wars, if you’d like. In that case, both the first and second Intifadahs were initiated by Palestinians.
This is true, but many people are turning blind eyes to this fact.
there is so much to unpack here the Palestinian narrative is very misunderstood.
If Palestinians stopped fighting they would cease to exists.
cease to exist
If they won’t give up their genocidal ideas they deserve to cease to exist. ignoring also the 2 state solution proposed many times that is ALWAYS turned down by Palestine. Funny how that works aint it?
BTW this is taken directly from the founding charter of HAMAS, “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."
before gaza did palestine cease to exist?
if israel really does not want palestine it can just get rid of it in a snap.
ukrainians were treated worse. did they kill and rape civilians intentionally? meanwhile
If Palestine stop fighting there would be peace. If Israel stop fighting there will be no. Israel. each time Palestinians are the aggressors.
Since you are comparing it to Ukraine, this would be like saying that the war in Ukraine is justified because Ukrainians didn’t stop fighting and gave up the Donbass and Crimea to the Russians.
If Palestinians stopped fighting, there would still be illegal settlements encroaching on their already-compromised territory. Palestinians missed real opportunities for peace MANY MANY times. Only one real peace effort was ruined by Israel (the ultra orthodox murdering Yitzhak Rabin).
I mean, no, the Israelis are aggressors, in that they walked into an existing country and tried to claim a vast amount of it. They’re the Confederacy, but not even from the same country originally.
If Palestine stop fighting there would be peace.
How do you mean? Peace in an apartheid state where they are always behind a separation wall or a checkpoint?
Which was in direct response toooo… Suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism.
It’s amazing, it actually led to a dramatic decrease in suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism (until it didn’t). I was against the wall because it led to less opportunities for interaction, but after seeing the precipitous drop in terrorism, I can understand why even progressive Israelis were not shedding too many tears when the walls started being built en masse.
kicked
*Are still actively kicking
I support them turning to rebels. I don’t support them turning to terrorists who intentionally murder innocent civilians. There is a large distinction between the two.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
I hope these dumbasses grow up a bit.
I’m sure you’ll change their views. Godspeed!
Sure I can. They turned to terrorists who murder innocent civilians. They should not do that.
What alternative do they have?
they can not do that.
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
Rebels who do nothing aren’t really rebels though. Think of star wars.
The death star had tons of independent contractors.
The death star was a military base they a attacked a military base.
The rebels didn’t murder and rape the ewoks in the middle of the yub nub festival.
This is a fair point. I didnt really pay as much attention as to how it all went down, i know they blew up a tank and a few people died and hostages were taken. All that being said, it is illegally conquered land and it is immediately next to a military installation.
Havent heard about rape yet
That woulda been a very different movie
You really haven’t seen any of the headlines and videos about the girls they kidnapped, raped, beat and then shot to death? Or the families, including children, that they murdered? There’s video all over the internet, how did you miss it?
Well regardless, now you know. True acts of barbarism against innocent civilians.
It seems you don’t pay much attention to the history of jerselum either. The “rightful” owners of the land depends on when you claim that this is when ownership was established.
Bad analogy. Death Star is not a civilian target.
Israeli settlements and military bases are installed by the government to keep control of an illegally conquered area.
If you are looking to liberate that land, stuff installed by the the offending government for military purposes is not civilian.
Israel is using its own citizens for it’s benefit without regard for their safety.
Yeah, and blowing it up was a shit move and not okay. Fuck the rebels pulling that kind of shit.
Destroy its weapon system, sure. But not blow up the whole station. I mean the only difference here is that the Imperium blew up an actual planet, not an artificial one.
Imagine virtue signalling for the literal Nazi allegory
Didn’t you know that might makes right? Do you even lift, bro?
/s
I’m not arguing rebels should do nothing. I’m arguing they should not assault, rape, and murder innocent women.
If I took your family’s house and people’s sovereignty away for a few generations would you still be able to stand on your moral highground?
Are you asking if I’d rape and murder innocent women if I felt aggrieved by a third party? I can confidently say that, no, I would not do that. Is that really standing on a moral high ground, or just not being a murderous, psychopathic, piece of shit?
No I was saying step outside of your own experience and really try to empathize with others. You should do it in all issues. Your other comment I felt showed you mostly ignored that.
I can understand that a person in a barbaric situation would turn to barbarism.
It is our responsibility as sentient beings to NOT do that. For some of us it is easier than others. But it is everyone’s responsibility. Regardless of circumstance.
I can’t sympathise with murderous rapists. I can’t imagine any common ground. I sympathise with the peaceful people of Palestine. Those few who don’t support Hamas.
Go live in Gaza and show them all how morally superior you are.
If I lived in Gaza I would be royally pissed at Hamas but wouldn’t say a thing because I enjoy being alive. If I lived in Gaza I would understand that the leadership was corrupt and pocketed millions of dollars of Israeli and international aid intended to allow Gaza to have its own power and water plants. If I lived in Gaza I would do my best not to live in Gaza, but would be not allowed to leave because no Arab country wants any more Palestinians then they already have.
Citi Bank took my parents’ home and thus any inheritance the family had coming. So one can theoretically go murder those executives’ children as compensation and be morally right, yes? Or is putting in more identifiable terms highlighting how insane that logic actually is?
Native Americans can invade American preschools and cut the throats of all the toddlers similar to what Hamas has uploaded to the internet with Israeli kids, yes?
Don’t you see the slippery slope and immoral position you hold here?
Bad people love to wear the mantle of victim because it justifies all the evil shit they do.
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism. I’m just going to assume you’re from the US, because the odds are high. Look into our rebellion. It’s not particularly pretty. The difference between something being called a rebellion or terrorism is which side you’re on, and in the future which side won.
Edit: Usually media doesn’t go into this, but some does. I appreciate how Star Trek Deep Space 9 analyzes terrorism and discusses how it’s sometimes necessary and sometimes it’s evil, and sometimes it’s a necessary evil. I also appreciate how Andor has done this for Star Wars. The rebellion there has always been this pristine thing to the viewers, but Andor dives into how it has to behave behind the scenes. It’s not just the epic battles of our main heroes, it’s a fight between life and death for everyday people who are severely under-armed.
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism.
I strongly disagree, but I suspect this will quickly devolve into an argument about the semantics of “terrorism.” So I’ll focus on this part: “intentionally murder innocent civilians.” I do not agree that all successful rebellions required the intentional murder of innocent civilians.
That part is debatable, and it also depends on the semantics of innocent. If you announce you want to irradicate the other people, are you innocent? If you vote for that, are you innocent? Guilt doesn’t just require carrying a gun or Hitler would be innocent.
The problem with the word terrorism is its all semantics. Every government (or sudo-government entity) is a terrorist if you want them to be. It’s a useless word. If you use fear or force to try to enforce something, you’re a terrorist. The IDF walks around with guns to keep things in check. That’s terrorism by almost any definition, but it depends on who’s talking.
kills them by the hundreds
the death toll is a bit higher than that
5,590 Palestinians and 251 Israelis died in conflict from 2008–2020
I don’t know what thought would be more depressing: if you’re just shilling, and this is your job (We know the are lots of people who do what you just did, for a living), or if you actually believe what you’re saying.
I’m not sure which is worse.
You mean like both-sides’ing a liberal democracy and a terrorist organization? That sort of thing?
Which? side is the liberal democracy?
Israel. It’s the only country in the region where a gay Muslim women can be an elected official, let alone vote.
I wonder how you would behave if somebody showed up at your door and said “I’ve got this piece of paper that says my ancestors lived here hundreds of years ago. Your house is now mine and you’re homeless now fuck off before I shoot you”
I’m going to guess they wouldn’t kill the men and then rape, murder, and dismember the women and children on video to post it in celebration.
But maybe I’m wrong. With reductionism, anything is justifiable.
As with any extremist group, those perpetrating those actions do not represent the entire population. We can condemn inhuman actions on both sides without missing the forest for the trees. It is not different from acknowledging that being an anti-zionist does not make one an anti-semite.
I hate how when we start killing each other shared humanity is forgotten.
I’ve got a friend in Israel, he’s just a guy, tries to make it a saner place. His crime was being born there. Right now he’s sitting in his house hoping nobody he loves is going to die while a government he hates and wants destroyed throws bombs at other people who have nothing to do with this and claims it is on his behalf. There are countless Palestinians who live under brutal occupation that just want to be free.
Always it is the little people who suffer and die for the dreams of megalomaniacal tyrants. Violence begets violence begets violence, this will be held up by every fucking group that wants to kill other people as a new excuse for why it’s so great to go kill other people.
Sometimes situations are just hard and ugly. Anyone can say “oh war is hell, people die” but I doubt they’d be so sanguine about it if someone kicked in their door and made them a sacrifice for crimes whoever claims dominion over them committed.
I guess that’s the liberal democracy part he’s referring to.
If you think that’s what happened, you don’t understand the origins of this conflict in the slightest.
Jews trying to build an Israeli state has very old origins, but the ACTUAL founding of the state of Israel was entirely about world finding something to do with all the Holocaust refugees who were turned away by every other country in their hour of need.
This was Europe’s way dealing with a refuge crisis. It wasn’t Jews that seized Palestinian lands, it was the British, and it happened way before they ever entertained any notion of giving up that land for any reason, let alone creating a Jewish state.
Holocaust refugees who were turned away by every other country in their hour of need
You may want to read up more on that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Immigration to the land of Israel started way before the Holocaust or the establishment of the state of Israel, actually against the wishes of the British, and it wasn’t the British who pushed a million Palestinians out.
After WWII the Jewish population understandably feared staying in non-friendly countries, but still during the early 1950s about 10% of the immigrants left to other countries that had no problem taking them in.
However, the bulk of immigration happened following a pre-Holocaust One Million Plan, which ended up focusing on Jews from Islamic countries… ironically not because of Holocaust refugee status, but over concerns of retaliation for taking over the land of Israel from the Palestinians in the first place. Which indeed, they did retaliate.
And look at that, the conflict has continued festering to this day.
If it wasn’t for the Zionist agenda, there might not have been a state of Israel… and Jews might have been to this day living as before in Islamic countries among others without fear of persecution, with Holocaust refugees having plenty of choices ready to take them in. Alas, the Zionist agenda won, and the number of Jewish refugees increased several-fold… which only further fed the agenda.
The implications of all that for the radicalization of the Islamic world, would be an exercise for another time.
The link you just gave about the One Million Plan puts it during the holocaust, 1944. Mistake?
What do you mean origins, it’s what’s happening now!
Native people get to told to leave their land. House gets bulldozed. Israeli settlement gets built.
Or are you trying to say every settlement that exists now sprung up in 1948?
It’s barbaric and totally dumb already if you’re trying to resolve an interpersonal conflict by being rude or swearing at others. You have a problem with someone else? Maybe sit down and talk about it like two intelligent individuals. Nothing will get any better if you knock their teeth out. Let alone doing some serious harm. Let alone killing one person.
…and here we are, trying to solve a problem in 2023 by killing thousands, ten thousands, hundred thousands of people. I really don’t know what they expect to happen realistically.
EDIT: I was talking about how horrible it is that humans are trying to resolve their problems by killing each other. I wonder how it is somehow a good thing to some of you. I’m honestly curious, if you want to actually give reasons.
Jesus Christ, read a history book. Or like… any book.
If only the world were so black and white.
The idea the conflict between Israel and Palestine could be solved by everyone just sitting down and talking ignores…well, literally everything. The history of the conflict, the religious and ethnic aspects, the actual desires of both sides apart from a desire for “Peace”, the actions of individuals distinct from their groups, etc.
“This conflict would be over if every person over there didn’t have the beliefs or needs or thoughts or histories that they do, and instead thought about the conflict in the same detached way as people an ocean away with no stake in it”
I know it feels good to say things like this, to assume this position of intellectual superiority because you appreciate killing isn’t the solution, but talking about one of the most complex, long lasted, and heated geopolitical disputes of our time like it’s two misbehaving children fighting over something trivial is not actually wisdom.
I never supposed it would take 2 minutes of talking, but I hope you also understand that killing a few thousand people won’t really resolve the problem, either. And it doesn’t take a science degree. Nobody said I was superior in any way (what does my person have to do with in this matter anyway?); you can actually come to this conclusion without a degree. Still, people shed blood like it would solve anything. If you honestly think negotiations from both parts (and understanding the other side’s perspective) is not the solution (or at least the part of it) then I’m really curious to how this situation could be handled so that there wouldn’t be any more pointless killings.
Please read history and tell me how often that happens between oppressors and the oppressed. That relationship is broken time and time again by violence, I’m sure you have a ton of examples to give out of the history of your own country as do I.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking about this particular case. I’m talking in general. It’s not just quite depressing that people are still trying to “solve” their problems by killing each other but also that they feel this is their only option (or, alternatively, it’s also depressing that people get into this oppressive relationship to begin with). Suggesting a cool headed, socially sensitive society, you would expect them to come to a compromise together, maybe even involving 3rd parties.
But no, humanity had to take this path.
(but just because humans have tried to resolve their issues in a violent manner before it doesn’t mean that’s the best example to follow as well)
I agree, but that doesn’t seem to be the case sadly…
I see so much support for the Hamas here in Lemmy. And I dont know why. I dont really no much about middle east conflict but everything I’ve ever heard about the Hamas was terrible and crule. Maybe its Propaganda but then things like this happens. Even IF it was a Soldier and not just a civillian this is nothing a Regime which is worth supporting does. This is just wrong.
EDIT: Typo
I see very very little actual support of Hamas so far but a TON of people complaining about seeing support of Hamas. I browse “everything” in Sync for Lemmy on Android if that helps. There more posts complaining about posts than actual problem posts. Hamas is inhumane; Israel is inhumane. Both things can be true at the same time.
Bro you must not have been reading the political Lemmy’s Havent you? Even political memes has a hard on for the terrorists. What else is new, tomorrow they will reveal themselves to be supporters of antisemitism?
I have seen pretty radical stuff from news@hexbear.net. Like, holy moly. I think it was on All, but maybe I accidentally subscribed to it. Saying stuff like “Death to America” and “Death to Israel” seems to get upvotes over there.
I get it, Israel’s illegal settlements and occupation of Gaza make it pretty easy for radical groups to gain followers. But that doesn’t mean that shooting at ordinary people is going to fix anything. Sure, Palestine has a right to defend itself. But shooting up a festival hardly qualifies as this.
Equally relevant, putting aside Israel’s settlements which we know to be illegal, the number of civilians dying in Gaza is totally unacceptable. Air strikes might look less horrific than men with guns, but they are really equally horrific, killing huge numbers of civilians. These lives are not worth less in any way.
I think this order of thoughts is appropriate:
- It is awful that civilians are dying, no matter where they live
- Unjust violence is taking place in Israel and in Gaza
- This doesn’t come out of the blue. Current conditions are a violation of international law by Israel and are a breeding ground for radicalisation. Israel has many more cards in their hands to turn this around than Palestine has.
- Can we please end this endless cycle of violence and suffering?
For me it’s actually the other Way around. I use Jerboa but this should not make difference or does it?. This is quite interesting.
I think lemmy.world defederated from the instances where you would see those posts. My understanding is that even if you are browsing “everything” you still won’t see those instances. There’s places to check who defederated what n’such.
New to this, so since my account was created on lemmy.world I’m not seeing them? I definitely see posts from lemmy.ml that everyone is claiming upset about. I haven’t seen anything from hexbear that I know of though which is the other name being thrown around. But others with accounts created on other instances may see them in their feed, they are not necessarily seeking them out to find reasons to be upset. I think that makes sense.
Still appears disproportionately to be people complaining about support as opposed to support itself.
I’m on lemmy.world and I’ve seen at least one from Hexbear
You’re on lemm.ee, lemmy.world defederated from hexbear a while ago
Nah political memes has a hard on for the terrorists right now
The big reason is not really justification to support Hamas, but Israel has absolutely not been the good guys in this situation. We all should support Palestine in the face of Israel treating them so badly.
Hamas is a Palestinian group that is fighting them, which is why the anti-Israel folks will often support that. Unfortunately with news like this (and this isn’t the first or the last of it) it’s hard to support either side.
For what it’s worth, I think you can support Palestine without supporting Hamas. But it’s pretty easy for us to make judgment when it’s not our homes and families being harmed.
Hamas is a Palestinian group that is fighting them, which is why the anti-Israel folks will often support that.
Hamas also came into being because of Israel supporting it over secular (communist) resistance groups.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Take one people and take their homes away, take another and call them “the chosen people or Judea” and tell them they can take the homes of the other people.
Now one group has been told by the “world” that this place is theirs because God said so.
The other is literally kicked outta their homes and is told it’s their fault. Also they’re walled in and can’t leave… and then they’re told they’re gonna get fucked unless they leave… but they can’t leave…
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I dont really no much about middle east conflict but[…]
There it is.
Great, another terrorist supporter
funny that knowing something about this makes you a ‘terrorist supporter’
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter
The grievences of the Palestinians are genuine, but no one wants to legitimize violence as a method for achieving political objectives.
So, here we are.
but no one wants to legitimize violence as a method for achieving political objectives.
Unless they’re going on about riots being the voice of the unheard…
Terrorism is violence towards people, riots are violence towards property, that’s a hell of a leap to try to equivocate the two
One becomes the other pretty frequently and pretty easily.
See May 28, 2020 in Minneapolis where, connected to the ongoing protests Montez Terriel Lee burned down Max It Pawn Shop. There’s literally video footage of him pouring the accelerant, lighting it, and standing outside the burning building saying something to the effect of “Fuck this place. We’re gonna burn this shit down.”. Folks like you basically cheered the footage on social media.
It was almost two months later before we found out the building wasn’t empty when he burned it down, when authorities found a body in the rubble. ME said he died from thermal injury and smoke inhalation, aka he was burned to death. Which is a horrible way to go. So “the voice of the unheard” delivered the message “Were gonna burn this shit down” over a human barbecue.
Weird time to bring up the “BLM burned down whole cities, and antifa killed my dog” boogymam, but…okay?
“When our time comes, we will make no excuses for the terror”
The grievences of the Palestinians are genuine, but no one wants to legitimize violence as a method for achieving political objectives.
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD DO? DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR SHITTY AND USELESS IDEAS?
fuck you, scum of the earth
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I haven’t seen anyone supporting Hamas as much as I’ve seen people opposing Israel.
I don’t see any support for Hamas.
I think it’s a “sides” thing. It’s mentally easy.
I think this story should be engaged with some nuance: I for example think Hamas is evil. But that does not mean I support Israel. Israel denies Palestinians their basic human rights, kills innocent people, and displaces people from their homes. It places palestinians as second class citizens.
They would be doing this whether or not there was a villain to oppose them, and they do it both when Hamas attacks and when they don’t. They have an absurd amount of wealth and power. They have a military that absolutely crushes people when they do their thing, both in “peace” time and at war. The evil that Israel is capable of is simply not accessible to the likes of Hamas.
Revolutionary groups are almost always operating from a severe disadvantage. They lack the resources of the regime that oppresses them.
You should ask yourself why revolutionaries feel that extremism is the solution. Is it maybe because peaceful protest leads to Zionist forces opening fire on unarmed civilians? Maybe it’s because losses in this drawn out conflict have disproportionately affected Palestinians?
And that’s why the have to humiliate and torture a captured Soldier? Wait it wasn’t even a Soldier! Nothing, I repeat NOTHING(!) can justify such an action.
War is terrible. I don’t support the allied troops in WWII raping and murdering Berlin women en masse or sending queer concentration camp victims straight to prison for being queer. Nothing can justify such actions. Does that mean the Nazis should not have been fought and defeated? Certainly not.
Nothing justifies it, but desperation explains it.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Disrespecting the dead is foolish - it does nothing but dehumanise you, and those you fight with.
In a very real way are you cursed, and have cursed those around you, for an enemy whose dead are dishonoured will grant no clemency.
Incredibly disgusting to see.
The comments from all the leftists here explicitly supporting Hamas terrorism against a legitimate state? Or the ones in favor of antisemitism? Or the ones requesting for LITERAL Israel genocide? Because yeah that shit is disgusting
Israel is a fake nazi colonizer state
Israel must be dismantled and the people of Palestine freed
murdering civilians en masse and then desecrating their corpses seems like a strange approach to recruiting people to your cause.
Ah yes, because peaceful protest worked so well: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-shoot-protesters-live-ammunition
So, to be clear, you are condoning the murder en masse of unarmed israeli civilians?
It’s possible for logical people to condemn the violence from both the Israeli military and Hamas, you know
But @zerfuffle@lemmy.ml hasn’t condemned them. In fact they seem to be condoning them. If you were reading this thread with a logical mind you would have noticed that
An eye for an eye is a commandment in the Book of Exodus. What do you propose Gazans should do instead?
It was a yes or no question. Please answer
It is interesting that similar sentiments aren’t leveled against Israeli police & military when they slaughter innocent people.
It would be weird and suspicious if I did that right?
“Well, Israel would probably have more people on their side if they didn’t kill thousands of innocent people” (which they have done)
It’s like you can use this line against whoever you don’t like to justify not liking them.
My sincere question is, what do you actually want the outcome to be? It is my opinion that if Hamas stopped going to war completely, Israel would continue to oppress Palestinians by denying them rights, displacing them from their homes, and keeping them as second class citizens on the basis of race.
It is interesting that similar sentiments aren’t leveled against Israeli police & military when they slaughter innocent people.
Do you live under a rock?
Since 2015, the General Assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticizing Israel, mainly over its treatment of the Palestinians, its relationships with neighboring countries and other alleged wrongdoings. Over the same period, it has passed 68 resolutions against all other countries, UN Watch said.
I’m sure Israel made some real changes because of these slaps on the wrist.
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Thank goodness for those resolutions! Amirite or amirite?
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I’m aware plenty of people condemn Israel for good reason, but what I don’t hear is the snide “you’ll never get anyone on your side like that”. It’s a sentiment that black people have been hearing since the 60’s, and is more commonly leveled against “underdogs” that are fighting an establishment.
I’m aware plenty of people condemn Israel for good reason.
You just said people don’t express similar sentiments when the Israeli police and military slaughter innocent people.
what I don’t hear is the snide “you’ll never get anyone on your side like that”
Palestinians are trying to play on the sympathies of the international community to garner aid and support for their cause. Israel is not.
Multiple things can be bad at the same time. It is also possible to fight without being barbaric.
It is also possible to fight without being barbaric.
Easy to say when you don’t have white phosphorus raining down on your kids’ school…
Its almost as though Hamas is a terrorist organisation or something
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Delulu is strong with this one.
You’re woefully ignorant to the world around you if you think they did this for sympathy.
If sympathy hasn’t worked up until now, what do you think would have to change in order to make it work? Lol.
But yeah, keep parroting those upvoted reddit talking points. You fit in!
Recruiting Middle-Eastern Muslims to your cause, with your cause being Jihadist and genocidal, is something most consistent with this approach.
Have you seen these recent videos with crowds in Gaza cheering over all those bodies and yelling “Allahu akbar”, “Khaybar” and such things?
I mean, the very fact that they are sharing these naturally and openly should inform you about that society (if you knew nothing about it before, that is, cause what I’m trying to communicate is obvious for anybody knowing anything about West Asia).
I hope western nations do not take in any of the Palestinians that are about to be displaced.
If you hate what we stand for, if you hate how we dress and how we dance, you should find asylum in a country that matches your values.
If someone is born in Gaza and wants to leave, you think they should be denied simply because of where they come from?
Not sure if you know this, but every single Palestinian is actually not an active member in Hamas.
it seems racist to view all Palestinians as a hive mind
Because it is.
Since when has the US and Western nations welcomed or cared for refugees of any kind? You and I both know you wouldn’t have welcomed them even if Hamas hadn’t done these things.
What are you talking about. Europe is flooded with immigrants, if anything a lot of countries are too welcoming and now have problems themselves, see Sweden and Germany as examples.
And no one is happy they are here, additionally there are much more refugees outside of Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population#By_destination_country_of_asylum
