I support them turning to rebels. I don’t support them turning to terrorists who intentionally murder innocent civilians. There is a large distinction between the two.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them… I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do.
I am not claiming I have a solution. Far from it. I am in no position of authority or influence. In fact, it’s not my responsibility to fix the conflict. I am merely condemning the assault, rape, and murder of innocent people. I do not believe there is any justification for this.
A better way was offered at Camp David in 2000. Arafat walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer. Israeli PM Barak offered deeply unpopular and unprecedented concessions. Saudi prince Bandar described not accepting the deal or negotiating further as criminal. Arafat won popularity when he walked away.
That is just one incident in a long and complicated history, but the point is that there’s more than enough blame to go around and there were other options.
Time and again, both parties chose to continue further down this road. They’ll likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I say likely, because that isn’t even the worst case scenario. Israel’s government is arguably borderline far right now, so it’s not impossible that this will all escalate so much that there one way or another, it’s ‘resolved’ through outright violence.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
I don’t understand how that is a response or argument. I agree with your description of events. I’m disagreeing with the response. Yes, they’ve been treated unfairly. No, beating, raping, and murdering innocent people is not an acceptable response.
I’m not defending Hamas/Hezbollah/terrorism but the Israeli State - and anybody paying attention - doesn’t get to act all surprised at this result when you repress a population.
The status quo of Israel, Gaza, and Palestine is a deliberate product of those in control of the situation - and the populations are the ones that suffer the consequences.
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
The point is they’re actually there, have been living in the situation, and are doing something. You’re only response is that that isn’t allowed. You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut if the most helpful thing you have to add is “not that.” It was brutal and horrible before this and it’ll be brutal and horrible after.
You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut
You realize that applies to you equally, right? I hope you do. Because this is the dishonesty I’m talking about.
In actually, I have as much right as you to comment on this situation, especially since this is an internet forum where the whole point is discussion. So “keep your mouth shut” is just about the most useless comment ever, and should be heeded by those who think to say it.
So, yes. I am well within my rights to say that murdering hundreds of civilians at a music festival, and raping, beating, and parading naked a foreign national are not the right way to go about protesting oppression by the Israeli government. Just as you are well within your rights to argue that those are acceptable things to do. It’s an awful thing for you to defend, but you’re allowed to express that opinion.
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism. I’m just going to assume you’re from the US, because the odds are high. Look into our rebellion. It’s not particularly pretty. The difference between something being called a rebellion or terrorism is which side you’re on, and in the future which side won.
Edit: Usually media doesn’t go into this, but some does. I appreciate how Star Trek Deep Space 9 analyzes terrorism and discusses how it’s sometimes necessary and sometimes it’s evil, and sometimes it’s a necessary evil. I also appreciate how Andor has done this for Star Wars. The rebellion there has always been this pristine thing to the viewers, but Andor dives into how it has to behave behind the scenes. It’s not just the epic battles of our main heroes, it’s a fight between life and death for everyday people who are severely under-armed.
I strongly disagree, but I suspect this will quickly devolve into an argument about the semantics of “terrorism.” So I’ll focus on this part: “intentionally murder innocent civilians.” I do not agree that all successful rebellions required the intentional murder of innocent civilians.
That part is debatable, and it also depends on the semantics of innocent. If you announce you want to irradicate the other people, are you innocent? If you vote for that, are you innocent? Guilt doesn’t just require carrying a gun or Hitler would be innocent.
The problem with the word terrorism is its all semantics. Every government (or sudo-government entity) is a terrorist if you want them to be. It’s a useless word. If you use fear or force to try to enforce something, you’re a terrorist. The IDF walks around with guns to keep things in check. That’s terrorism by almost any definition, but it depends on who’s talking.
Citi Bank took my parents’ home and thus any inheritance the family had coming. So one can theoretically go murder those executives’ children as compensation and be morally right, yes? Or is putting in more identifiable terms highlighting how insane that logic actually is?
Native Americans can invade American preschools and cut the throats of all the toddlers similar to what Hamas has uploaded to the internet with Israeli kids, yes?
Don’t you see the slippery slope and immoral position you hold here?
Bad people love to wear the mantle of victim because it justifies all the evil shit they do.
Are you asking if I’d rape and murder innocent women if I felt aggrieved by a third party? I can confidently say that, no, I would not do that. Is that really standing on a moral high ground, or just not being a murderous, psychopathic, piece of shit?
If I lived in Gaza I would be royally pissed at Hamas but wouldn’t say a thing because I enjoy being alive. If I lived in Gaza I would understand that the leadership was corrupt and pocketed millions of dollars of Israeli and international aid intended to allow Gaza to have its own power and water plants. If I lived in Gaza I would do my best not to live in Gaza, but would be not allowed to leave because no Arab country wants any more Palestinians then they already have.
No I was saying step outside of your own experience and really try to empathize with others. You should do it in all issues. Your other comment I felt showed you mostly ignored that.
I can understand that a person in a barbaric situation would turn to barbarism.
It is our responsibility as sentient beings to NOT do that. For some of us it is easier than others. But it is everyone’s responsibility. Regardless of circumstance.
Right – But to make desperate people who cheer misguidedly ‘the other’ and different from us dehumanizes them which comes with all kinds of bad side effects, many of which you can see on display here.
You can do both – You can not condone violence while understanding why a group of people treated like they’re not people can fail to uphold high morals in this situation without gloating or pretending they’re made of stuff you’re not. We’re all just people.
Well… Just know that’s how people convinced others to commit the very evils against their fellow man that you speak of – over and over for 1000s of years. Taking that position may soothe your belief in humanity but it makes you vulnerable to be co-opted to commit the very same evils against which you preach.
I can’t sympathise with murderous rapists. I can’t imagine any common ground. I sympathise with the peaceful people of Palestine. Those few who don’t support Hamas.
And those few make enough loud booms that create red mist carnage to ruin it for the rest of the people. Israel’s response to terrorism is understandable. The problem is that modern-day zealots do shit like create illegal settlements. Israel tried preventing illegal settlements to be repaid with more bombs. Now they know they’re going to get attacked either way. This will not end well, especially with Israel’s current government.
Yeah, and blowing it up was a shit move and not okay. Fuck the rebels pulling that kind of shit.
Destroy its weapon system, sure. But not blow up the whole station. I mean the only difference here is that the Imperium blew up an actual planet, not an artificial one.
This is a fair point. I didnt really pay as much attention as to how it all went down, i know they blew up a tank and a few people died and hostages were taken. All that being said, it is illegally conquered land and it is immediately next to a military installation.
You really haven’t seen any of the headlines and videos about the girls they kidnapped, raped, beat and then shot to death? Or the families, including children, that they murdered? There’s video all over the internet, how did you miss it?
Well regardless, now you know. True acts of barbarism against innocent civilians.
It seems you don’t pay much attention to the history of jerselum either. The “rightful” owners of the land depends on when you claim that this is when ownership was established.
I support them turning to rebels. I don’t support them turning to terrorists who intentionally murder innocent civilians. There is a large distinction between the two.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
Sure I can. They turned to terrorists who murder innocent civilians. They should not do that.
What alternative do they have?
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
I am not claiming I have a solution. Far from it. I am in no position of authority or influence. In fact, it’s not my responsibility to fix the conflict. I am merely condemning the assault, rape, and murder of innocent people. I do not believe there is any justification for this.
A better way was offered at Camp David in 2000. Arafat walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer. Israeli PM Barak offered deeply unpopular and unprecedented concessions. Saudi prince Bandar described not accepting the deal or negotiating further as criminal. Arafat won popularity when he walked away.
That is just one incident in a long and complicated history, but the point is that there’s more than enough blame to go around and there were other options.
Time and again, both parties chose to continue further down this road. They’ll likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I say likely, because that isn’t even the worst case scenario. Israel’s government is arguably borderline far right now, so it’s not impossible that this will all escalate so much that there one way or another, it’s ‘resolved’ through outright violence.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
Yes. All of that is correct. And still there are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.”
I don’t understand how that is a response or argument. I agree with your description of events. I’m disagreeing with the response. Yes, they’ve been treated unfairly. No, beating, raping, and murdering innocent people is not an acceptable response.
they can not do that.
“Have you tried not being repressed?”
More like, “have you tried attacking only military targets and not massacring civilians”?
I’m not defending Hamas/Hezbollah/terrorism but the Israeli State - and anybody paying attention - doesn’t get to act all surprised at this result when you repress a population.
The status quo of Israel, Gaza, and Palestine is a deliberate product of those in control of the situation - and the populations are the ones that suffer the consequences.
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
I love the dishonest replies that pretend “not that” means “nothing at all.”
The point is they’re actually there, have been living in the situation, and are doing something. You’re only response is that that isn’t allowed. You aren’t there or in their situation. You should keep your mouth shut if the most helpful thing you have to add is “not that.” It was brutal and horrible before this and it’ll be brutal and horrible after.
You realize that applies to you equally, right? I hope you do. Because this is the dishonesty I’m talking about.
In actually, I have as much right as you to comment on this situation, especially since this is an internet forum where the whole point is discussion. So “keep your mouth shut” is just about the most useless comment ever, and should be heeded by those who think to say it.
So, yes. I am well within my rights to say that murdering hundreds of civilians at a music festival, and raping, beating, and parading naked a foreign national are not the right way to go about protesting oppression by the Israeli government. Just as you are well within your rights to argue that those are acceptable things to do. It’s an awful thing for you to defend, but you’re allowed to express that opinion.
And get crushed by Israel? That’s not a choice.
Because killing unarmed civilians definitely gives them a military advantage in the conflict /s
Supporting Hamas is what is going to get them crushed even further.
They’ve getting crushed brutally for decades. Hamas has only been in power since 2006.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171209-remembering-the-first-intifada-2/
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
I hope these dumbasses grow up a bit.
I’m sure you’ll change their views. Godspeed!
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism. I’m just going to assume you’re from the US, because the odds are high. Look into our rebellion. It’s not particularly pretty. The difference between something being called a rebellion or terrorism is which side you’re on, and in the future which side won.
Edit: Usually media doesn’t go into this, but some does. I appreciate how Star Trek Deep Space 9 analyzes terrorism and discusses how it’s sometimes necessary and sometimes it’s evil, and sometimes it’s a necessary evil. I also appreciate how Andor has done this for Star Wars. The rebellion there has always been this pristine thing to the viewers, but Andor dives into how it has to behave behind the scenes. It’s not just the epic battles of our main heroes, it’s a fight between life and death for everyday people who are severely under-armed.
I strongly disagree, but I suspect this will quickly devolve into an argument about the semantics of “terrorism.” So I’ll focus on this part: “intentionally murder innocent civilians.” I do not agree that all successful rebellions required the intentional murder of innocent civilians.
That part is debatable, and it also depends on the semantics of innocent. If you announce you want to irradicate the other people, are you innocent? If you vote for that, are you innocent? Guilt doesn’t just require carrying a gun or Hitler would be innocent.
The problem with the word terrorism is its all semantics. Every government (or sudo-government entity) is a terrorist if you want them to be. It’s a useless word. If you use fear or force to try to enforce something, you’re a terrorist. The IDF walks around with guns to keep things in check. That’s terrorism by almost any definition, but it depends on who’s talking.
If I took your family’s house and people’s sovereignty away for a few generations would you still be able to stand on your moral highground?
Citi Bank took my parents’ home and thus any inheritance the family had coming. So one can theoretically go murder those executives’ children as compensation and be morally right, yes? Or is putting in more identifiable terms highlighting how insane that logic actually is?
Native Americans can invade American preschools and cut the throats of all the toddlers similar to what Hamas has uploaded to the internet with Israeli kids, yes?
Don’t you see the slippery slope and immoral position you hold here?
Bad people love to wear the mantle of victim because it justifies all the evil shit they do.
Are you asking if I’d rape and murder innocent women if I felt aggrieved by a third party? I can confidently say that, no, I would not do that. Is that really standing on a moral high ground, or just not being a murderous, psychopathic, piece of shit?
Go live in Gaza and show them all how morally superior you are.
If I lived in Gaza I would be royally pissed at Hamas but wouldn’t say a thing because I enjoy being alive. If I lived in Gaza I would understand that the leadership was corrupt and pocketed millions of dollars of Israeli and international aid intended to allow Gaza to have its own power and water plants. If I lived in Gaza I would do my best not to live in Gaza, but would be not allowed to leave because no Arab country wants any more Palestinians then they already have.
No I was saying step outside of your own experience and really try to empathize with others. You should do it in all issues. Your other comment I felt showed you mostly ignored that.
I can understand that a person in a barbaric situation would turn to barbarism.
It is our responsibility as sentient beings to NOT do that. For some of us it is easier than others. But it is everyone’s responsibility. Regardless of circumstance.
Right – But to make desperate people who cheer misguidedly ‘the other’ and different from us dehumanizes them which comes with all kinds of bad side effects, many of which you can see on display here.
You can do both – You can not condone violence while understanding why a group of people treated like they’re not people can fail to uphold high morals in this situation without gloating or pretending they’re made of stuff you’re not. We’re all just people.
Nope. They failed the test of basic humanity. Their test was more difficult than ours, but they still failed.
No sympathy. Understanding, but not sympathy.
Well… Just know that’s how people convinced others to commit the very evils against their fellow man that you speak of – over and over for 1000s of years. Taking that position may soothe your belief in humanity but it makes you vulnerable to be co-opted to commit the very same evils against which you preach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)
and empathy !== sympathy.
I can’t sympathise with murderous rapists. I can’t imagine any common ground. I sympathise with the peaceful people of Palestine. Those few who don’t support Hamas.
And those few make enough loud booms that create red mist carnage to ruin it for the rest of the people. Israel’s response to terrorism is understandable. The problem is that modern-day zealots do shit like create illegal settlements. Israel tried preventing illegal settlements to be repaid with more bombs. Now they know they’re going to get attacked either way. This will not end well, especially with Israel’s current government.
Rebels who do nothing aren’t really rebels though. Think of star wars.
The death star had tons of independent contractors.
Bad analogy. Death Star is not a civilian target.
Israeli settlements and military bases are installed by the government to keep control of an illegally conquered area.
If you are looking to liberate that land, stuff installed by the the offending government for military purposes is not civilian.
Israel is using its own citizens for it’s benefit without regard for their safety.
Yeah, and blowing it up was a shit move and not okay. Fuck the rebels pulling that kind of shit.
Destroy its weapon system, sure. But not blow up the whole station. I mean the only difference here is that the Imperium blew up an actual planet, not an artificial one.
Imagine virtue signalling for the literal Nazi allegory
Didn’t you know that might makes right? Do you even lift, bro?
/s
I’m not arguing rebels should do nothing. I’m arguing they should not assault, rape, and murder innocent women.
The death star was a military base they a attacked a military base.
The rebels didn’t murder and rape the ewoks in the middle of the yub nub festival.
This is a fair point. I didnt really pay as much attention as to how it all went down, i know they blew up a tank and a few people died and hostages were taken. All that being said, it is illegally conquered land and it is immediately next to a military installation.
Havent heard about rape yet
That woulda been a very different movie
You really haven’t seen any of the headlines and videos about the girls they kidnapped, raped, beat and then shot to death? Or the families, including children, that they murdered? There’s video all over the internet, how did you miss it?
Well regardless, now you know. True acts of barbarism against innocent civilians.
It seems you don’t pay much attention to the history of jerselum either. The “rightful” owners of the land depends on when you claim that this is when ownership was established.