There is exactly nothing I can say about Hamas or Isreal that doesn’t make me seem like a huge piece of shit. What a shitty situation between 2 shitty groups and it’s unfortunate others are being pulled into it.
I wonder how you would behave if somebody showed up at your door and said “I’ve got this piece of paper that says my ancestors lived here hundreds of years ago. Your house is now mine and you’re homeless now fuck off before I shoot you”
As with any extremist group, those perpetrating those actions do not represent the entire population. We can condemn inhuman actions on both sides without missing the forest for the trees. It is not different from acknowledging that being an anti-zionist does not make one an anti-semite.
I hate how when we start killing each other shared humanity is forgotten.
I’ve got a friend in Israel, he’s just a guy, tries to make it a saner place. His crime was being born there. Right now he’s sitting in his house hoping nobody he loves is going to die while a government he hates and wants destroyed throws bombs at other people who have nothing to do with this and claims it is on his behalf. There are countless Palestinians who live under brutal occupation that just want to be free.
Always it is the little people who suffer and die for the dreams of megalomaniacal tyrants. Violence begets violence begets violence, this will be held up by every fucking group that wants to kill other people as a new excuse for why it’s so great to go kill other people.
Sometimes situations are just hard and ugly. Anyone can say “oh war is hell, people die” but I doubt they’d be so sanguine about it if someone kicked in their door and made them a sacrifice for crimes whoever claims dominion over them committed.
If you think that’s what happened, you don’t understand the origins of this conflict in the slightest.
Jews trying to build an Israeli state has very old origins, but the ACTUAL founding of the state of Israel was entirely about world finding something to do with all the Holocaust refugees who were turned away by every other country in their hour of need.
This was Europe’s way dealing with a refuge crisis. It wasn’t Jews that seized Palestinian lands, it was the British, and it happened way before they ever entertained any notion of giving up that land for any reason, let alone creating a Jewish state.
Immigration to the land of Israel started way before the Holocaust or the establishment of the state of Israel, actually against the wishes of the British, and it wasn’t the British who pushed a million Palestinians out.
After WWII the Jewish population understandably feared staying in non-friendly countries, but still during the early 1950s about 10% of the immigrants left to other countries that had no problem taking them in.
However, the bulk of immigration happened following a pre-Holocaust One Million Plan, which ended up focusing on Jews from Islamic countries… ironically not because of Holocaust refugee status, but over concerns of retaliation for taking over the land of Israel from the Palestinians in the first place. Which indeed, they did retaliate.
And look at that, the conflict has continued festering to this day.
If it wasn’t for the Zionist agenda, there might not have been a state of Israel… and Jews might have been to this day living as before in Islamic countries among others without fear of persecution, with Holocaust refugees having plenty of choices ready to take them in. Alas, the Zionist agenda won, and the number of Jewish refugees increased several-fold… which only further fed the agenda.
The implications of all that for the radicalization of the Islamic world, would be an exercise for another time.
It’s barbaric and totally dumb already if you’re trying to resolve an interpersonal conflict by being rude or swearing at others. You have a problem with someone else? Maybe sit down and talk about it like two intelligent individuals. Nothing will get any better if you knock their teeth out. Let alone doing some serious harm. Let alone killing one person.
…and here we are, trying to solve a problem in 2023 by killing thousands, ten thousands, hundred thousands of people. I really don’t know what they expect to happen realistically.
EDIT: I was talking about how horrible it is that humans are trying to resolve their problems by killing each other. I wonder how it is somehow a good thing to some of you. I’m honestly curious, if you want to actually give reasons.
The idea the conflict between Israel and Palestine could be solved by everyone just sitting down and talking ignores…well, literally everything. The history of the conflict, the religious and ethnic aspects, the actual desires of both sides apart from a desire for “Peace”, the actions of individuals distinct from their groups, etc.
“This conflict would be over if every person over there didn’t have the beliefs or needs or thoughts or histories that they do, and instead thought about the conflict in the same detached way as people an ocean away with no stake in it”
I know it feels good to say things like this, to assume this position of intellectual superiority because you appreciate killing isn’t the solution, but talking about one of the most complex, long lasted, and heated geopolitical disputes of our time like it’s two misbehaving children fighting over something trivial is not actually wisdom.
I never supposed it would take 2 minutes of talking, but I hope you also understand that killing a few thousand people won’t really resolve the problem, either. And it doesn’t take a science degree. Nobody said I was superior in any way (what does my person have to do with in this matter anyway?); you can actually come to this conclusion without a degree. Still, people shed blood like it would solve anything.
If you honestly think negotiations from both parts (and understanding the other side’s perspective) is not the solution (or at least the part of it) then I’m really curious to how this situation could be handled so that there wouldn’t be any more pointless killings.
Please read history and tell me how often that happens between oppressors and the oppressed. That relationship is broken time and time again by violence, I’m sure you have a ton of examples to give out of the history of your own country as do I.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking about this particular case. I’m talking in general. It’s not just quite depressing that people are still trying to “solve” their problems by killing each other but also that they feel this is their only option (or, alternatively, it’s also depressing that people get into this oppressive relationship to begin with). Suggesting a cool headed, socially sensitive society, you would expect them to come to a compromise together, maybe even involving 3rd parties.
But no, humanity had to take this path.
(but just because humans have tried to resolve their issues in a violent manner before it doesn’t mean that’s the best example to follow as well)
I can’t point you to specific circumstances that match your exact descriptions, but the IDF kills Palestinians fairly frequently, often just walking around or at their homes. Is that better? It’s like breeding contempt in people causes them to do horrible things out of hatred.
Israel literally exists because western nations divided land and gave it to Jewish settlers, who then captured more land through war and has continuously extended its colonial efforts.
This isn’t to justify anything, just to provide context. Israel isn’t any better. Zionism is pure evil, and Israel currently runs on zionism.
The target killing was an IDF policy to take out terrorists when they didn’t pose an immediate threat.
The "innocen"t teen was a member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a terrorists organization, this was confirmed by his own social media posts and PIJ claiming him as a martyr.
The 3rd article outlines terrible behavior and cover-ups of killing innocent people. I am glad many soldiers have reported these incidents, that’s how reform starts.
The last link is just a Google query, because of how google works I cannot verify that the searches I am seeing are the ones you see. Most of mine were links to the current attacks or to the other articles you cited.
There’s a lot more. I included the Google search so you could find more if you want. Sure, you can find excuses for all of it, but there’s a lot. There’s the time the IDF killed the medic when they were checking on someone (someone I think they shot while protesting IIRC). There’s plenty. I didn’t want to spend forever on it, and yeah also a lot is about this ongoing event so it’s harder to find what you’re looking for.
Well, actually… Chernobyl has shown us how to establish a long lasting war-free zone.
Most peaceful place on Earth, even while surrounded by an ongoing war, self-preserving whether soldiers know to not dig trenches in the red forest or not, great for nature and wildlife, and it’s going to be like that for the next 20,000 years or so.
If evangelicals have their say, they might get something similar going on in the region:
Pripyat should be habitable again in the next 200-300 years. We may not survive that long, but the radiation levels are checked pretty regularly, and steadily dropping. The Sarcophagus may take a bit longer than that before it’s safe to clean up.
Support of Hamas is not the same as not condoning the attacks, it’s a false dichotomy. Of course it helps that they’re very anti-Israel, but it’s not necessarily a 1:1 thing. They also provide necessities in the Gaza Strip, so people tend to support them because they appreciate things like healthcare and food.
Israel took their lands and kicked them out of their houses, kills them by the hundreds, the world does nothing because Israel is a friend of the US who do you think they are going to turn to if not to rebels?
Israel is not the aggressor. Both the war of Independence (1948) and the Yom Kippur war (1973) were initiated by Arab forces. The Six-day war was initiated by Israel, but it was a preemptive strike and there’s no doubt the Arabs were planning on attacking sooner rather than later, so you can count that in as well.
Oh, and I guess you can count some of the bigger escalations between Israelis and Palestinians as wars, if you’d like. In that case, both the first and second Intifadahs were initiated by Palestinians.
I mean, no, the Israelis are aggressors, in that they walked into an existing country and tried to claim a vast amount of it. They’re the Confederacy, but not even from the same country originally.
It’s amazing, it actually led to a dramatic decrease in suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism (until it didn’t). I was against the wall because it led to less opportunities for interaction, but after seeing the precipitous drop in terrorism, I can understand why even progressive Israelis were not shedding too many tears when the walls started being built en masse.
If Palestinians stopped fighting, there would still be illegal settlements encroaching on their already-compromised territory. Palestinians missed real opportunities for peace MANY MANY times. Only one real peace effort was ruined by Israel (the ultra orthodox murdering Yitzhak Rabin).
ukrainians were treated worse. did they kill and rape civilians intentionally? meanwhile
If Palestine stop fighting there would be peace. If Israel stop fighting there will be no. Israel. each time Palestinians are the aggressors.
Since you are comparing it to Ukraine, this would be like saying that the war in Ukraine is justified because Ukrainians didn’t stop fighting and gave up the Donbass and Crimea to the Russians.
If they won’t give up their genocidal ideas they deserve to cease to exist. ignoring also the 2 state solution proposed many times that is ALWAYS turned down by Palestine. Funny how that works aint it?
BTW this is taken directly from the founding charter of HAMAS,
“our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."
I support them turning to rebels. I don’t support them turning to terrorists who intentionally murder innocent civilians. There is a large distinction between the two.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism. I’m just going to assume you’re from the US, because the odds are high. Look into our rebellion. It’s not particularly pretty. The difference between something being called a rebellion or terrorism is which side you’re on, and in the future which side won.
Edit: Usually media doesn’t go into this, but some does. I appreciate how Star Trek Deep Space 9 analyzes terrorism and discusses how it’s sometimes necessary and sometimes it’s evil, and sometimes it’s a necessary evil. I also appreciate how Andor has done this for Star Wars. The rebellion there has always been this pristine thing to the viewers, but Andor dives into how it has to behave behind the scenes. It’s not just the epic battles of our main heroes, it’s a fight between life and death for everyday people who are severely under-armed.
I strongly disagree, but I suspect this will quickly devolve into an argument about the semantics of “terrorism.” So I’ll focus on this part: “intentionally murder innocent civilians.” I do not agree that all successful rebellions required the intentional murder of innocent civilians.
That part is debatable, and it also depends on the semantics of innocent. If you announce you want to irradicate the other people, are you innocent? If you vote for that, are you innocent? Guilt doesn’t just require carrying a gun or Hitler would be innocent.
The problem with the word terrorism is its all semantics. Every government (or sudo-government entity) is a terrorist if you want them to be. It’s a useless word. If you use fear or force to try to enforce something, you’re a terrorist. The IDF walks around with guns to keep things in check. That’s terrorism by almost any definition, but it depends on who’s talking.
Are you asking if I’d rape and murder innocent women if I felt aggrieved by a third party? I can confidently say that, no, I would not do that. Is that really standing on a moral high ground, or just not being a murderous, psychopathic, piece of shit?
If I lived in Gaza I would be royally pissed at Hamas but wouldn’t say a thing because I enjoy being alive. If I lived in Gaza I would understand that the leadership was corrupt and pocketed millions of dollars of Israeli and international aid intended to allow Gaza to have its own power and water plants. If I lived in Gaza I would do my best not to live in Gaza, but would be not allowed to leave because no Arab country wants any more Palestinians then they already have.
No I was saying step outside of your own experience and really try to empathize with others. You should do it in all issues. Your other comment I felt showed you mostly ignored that.
I can’t sympathise with murderous rapists. I can’t imagine any common ground. I sympathise with the peaceful people of Palestine. Those few who don’t support Hamas.
And those few make enough loud booms that create red mist carnage to ruin it for the rest of the people. Israel’s response to terrorism is understandable. The problem is that modern-day zealots do shit like create illegal settlements. Israel tried preventing illegal settlements to be repaid with more bombs. Now they know they’re going to get attacked either way. This will not end well, especially with Israel’s current government.
I can understand that a person in a barbaric situation would turn to barbarism.
It is our responsibility as sentient beings to NOT do that. For some of us it is easier than others. But it is everyone’s responsibility. Regardless of circumstance.
Right – But to make desperate people who cheer misguidedly ‘the other’ and different from us dehumanizes them which comes with all kinds of bad side effects, many of which you can see on display here.
You can do both – You can not condone violence while understanding why a group of people treated like they’re not people can fail to uphold high morals in this situation without gloating or pretending they’re made of stuff you’re not. We’re all just people.
Citi Bank took my parents’ home and thus any inheritance the family had coming. So one can theoretically go murder those executives’ children as compensation and be morally right, yes? Or is putting in more identifiable terms highlighting how insane that logic actually is?
Native Americans can invade American preschools and cut the throats of all the toddlers similar to what Hamas has uploaded to the internet with Israeli kids, yes?
Don’t you see the slippery slope and immoral position you hold here?
Bad people love to wear the mantle of victim because it justifies all the evil shit they do.
Yeah, and blowing it up was a shit move and not okay. Fuck the rebels pulling that kind of shit.
Destroy its weapon system, sure. But not blow up the whole station. I mean the only difference here is that the Imperium blew up an actual planet, not an artificial one.
This is a fair point. I didnt really pay as much attention as to how it all went down, i know they blew up a tank and a few people died and hostages were taken. All that being said, it is illegally conquered land and it is immediately next to a military installation.
You really haven’t seen any of the headlines and videos about the girls they kidnapped, raped, beat and then shot to death? Or the families, including children, that they murdered? There’s video all over the internet, how did you miss it?
Well regardless, now you know. True acts of barbarism against innocent civilians.
It seems you don’t pay much attention to the history of jerselum either. The “rightful” owners of the land depends on when you claim that this is when ownership was established.
Yeah it’s almost like Israel has been sabotaging all peace talks for decades.
The only side in this conflict that could have ended it was Israel, back when Palestine was not controlled by Hamas, but they instead chose to destroy any chance at that.
And then they of course continued to blockade Gaza, starve people, block their access to water, continue illegal settlements, and so on.
The person above me made a grammatical error. I didn’t call them out nor do I think it voids an otherwise perfectly coherent statement. This is because I’m not a cunt.
Also can you point out what I misspelt, my phone’s dictionary isnt’t complaining. Thank you.
I don’t know what thought would be more depressing: if you’re just shilling, and this is your job (We know the are lots of people who do what you just did, for a living), or if you actually believe what you’re saying.
The absurd thing is that Israel helped create and fund Hamas initially as a counterweight to the largely secular leftist Palestine Liberation Organization under Yasser Arafat. This whole situation is partially blowback from an Israeli effort to divide-and-conquer Palestine.
In 1981, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, Israel’s military governor of Gaza, told me that he was giving money to the Muslim Brotherhood, the precursor of Hamas, on the instruction of the Israeli authorities. The funding was intended to tilt power away from both Communist and Palestinian nationalist movements in Gaza, which Israel considered more threatening than the fundamentalists.
“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says [retired Israeli official Avner Cohen], a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.
The secular PLO has now largely been supplanted by Hamas in Gaza.
There is exactly nothing I can say about Hamas or Isreal that doesn’t make me seem like a huge piece of shit. What a shitty situation between 2 shitty groups and it’s unfortunate others are being pulled into it.
I think it’s a containment zone at this point.
As expected from Uncle Iroh. It’s a horrible situation all around.
Even iroh wouldn’t side with terrorists. Specially iroh
You mean like both-sides’ing a liberal democracy and a terrorist organization? That sort of thing?
I wonder how you would behave if somebody showed up at your door and said “I’ve got this piece of paper that says my ancestors lived here hundreds of years ago. Your house is now mine and you’re homeless now fuck off before I shoot you”
I guess that’s the liberal democracy part he’s referring to.
I’m going to guess they wouldn’t kill the men and then rape, murder, and dismember the women and children on video to post it in celebration.
But maybe I’m wrong. With reductionism, anything is justifiable.
As with any extremist group, those perpetrating those actions do not represent the entire population. We can condemn inhuman actions on both sides without missing the forest for the trees. It is not different from acknowledging that being an anti-zionist does not make one an anti-semite.
I hate how when we start killing each other shared humanity is forgotten.
I’ve got a friend in Israel, he’s just a guy, tries to make it a saner place. His crime was being born there. Right now he’s sitting in his house hoping nobody he loves is going to die while a government he hates and wants destroyed throws bombs at other people who have nothing to do with this and claims it is on his behalf. There are countless Palestinians who live under brutal occupation that just want to be free.
Always it is the little people who suffer and die for the dreams of megalomaniacal tyrants. Violence begets violence begets violence, this will be held up by every fucking group that wants to kill other people as a new excuse for why it’s so great to go kill other people.
Sometimes situations are just hard and ugly. Anyone can say “oh war is hell, people die” but I doubt they’d be so sanguine about it if someone kicked in their door and made them a sacrifice for crimes whoever claims dominion over them committed.
If you think that’s what happened, you don’t understand the origins of this conflict in the slightest.
Jews trying to build an Israeli state has very old origins, but the ACTUAL founding of the state of Israel was entirely about world finding something to do with all the Holocaust refugees who were turned away by every other country in their hour of need.
This was Europe’s way dealing with a refuge crisis. It wasn’t Jews that seized Palestinian lands, it was the British, and it happened way before they ever entertained any notion of giving up that land for any reason, let alone creating a Jewish state.
What do you mean origins, it’s what’s happening now!
Native people get to told to leave their land. House gets bulldozed. Israeli settlement gets built.
Or are you trying to say every settlement that exists now sprung up in 1948?
You may want to read up more on that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Immigration to the land of Israel started way before the Holocaust or the establishment of the state of Israel, actually against the wishes of the British, and it wasn’t the British who pushed a million Palestinians out.
After WWII the Jewish population understandably feared staying in non-friendly countries, but still during the early 1950s about 10% of the immigrants left to other countries that had no problem taking them in.
However, the bulk of immigration happened following a pre-Holocaust One Million Plan, which ended up focusing on Jews from Islamic countries… ironically not because of Holocaust refugee status, but over concerns of retaliation for taking over the land of Israel from the Palestinians in the first place. Which indeed, they did retaliate.
And look at that, the conflict has continued festering to this day.
If it wasn’t for the Zionist agenda, there might not have been a state of Israel… and Jews might have been to this day living as before in Islamic countries among others without fear of persecution, with Holocaust refugees having plenty of choices ready to take them in. Alas, the Zionist agenda won, and the number of Jewish refugees increased several-fold… which only further fed the agenda.
The implications of all that for the radicalization of the Islamic world, would be an exercise for another time.
The link you just gave about the One Million Plan puts it during the holocaust, 1944. Mistake?
Which? side is the liberal democracy?
Israel. It’s the only country in the region where a gay Muslim women can be an elected official, let alone vote.
It’s barbaric and totally dumb already if you’re trying to resolve an interpersonal conflict by being rude or swearing at others. You have a problem with someone else? Maybe sit down and talk about it like two intelligent individuals. Nothing will get any better if you knock their teeth out. Let alone doing some serious harm. Let alone killing one person.
…and here we are, trying to solve a problem in 2023 by killing thousands, ten thousands, hundred thousands of people. I really don’t know what they expect to happen realistically.
EDIT: I was talking about how horrible it is that humans are trying to resolve their problems by killing each other. I wonder how it is somehow a good thing to some of you. I’m honestly curious, if you want to actually give reasons.
Jesus Christ, read a history book. Or like… any book.
If only the world were so black and white.
The idea the conflict between Israel and Palestine could be solved by everyone just sitting down and talking ignores…well, literally everything. The history of the conflict, the religious and ethnic aspects, the actual desires of both sides apart from a desire for “Peace”, the actions of individuals distinct from their groups, etc.
“This conflict would be over if every person over there didn’t have the beliefs or needs or thoughts or histories that they do, and instead thought about the conflict in the same detached way as people an ocean away with no stake in it”
I know it feels good to say things like this, to assume this position of intellectual superiority because you appreciate killing isn’t the solution, but talking about one of the most complex, long lasted, and heated geopolitical disputes of our time like it’s two misbehaving children fighting over something trivial is not actually wisdom.
I never supposed it would take 2 minutes of talking, but I hope you also understand that killing a few thousand people won’t really resolve the problem, either. And it doesn’t take a science degree. Nobody said I was superior in any way (what does my person have to do with in this matter anyway?); you can actually come to this conclusion without a degree. Still, people shed blood like it would solve anything. If you honestly think negotiations from both parts (and understanding the other side’s perspective) is not the solution (or at least the part of it) then I’m really curious to how this situation could be handled so that there wouldn’t be any more pointless killings.
Please read history and tell me how often that happens between oppressors and the oppressed. That relationship is broken time and time again by violence, I’m sure you have a ton of examples to give out of the history of your own country as do I.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking about this particular case. I’m talking in general. It’s not just quite depressing that people are still trying to “solve” their problems by killing each other but also that they feel this is their only option (or, alternatively, it’s also depressing that people get into this oppressive relationship to begin with). Suggesting a cool headed, socially sensitive society, you would expect them to come to a compromise together, maybe even involving 3rd parties.
But no, humanity had to take this path.
(but just because humans have tried to resolve their issues in a violent manner before it doesn’t mean that’s the best example to follow as well)
I agree, but that doesn’t seem to be the case sadly…
Israel is far from perfect, but they are WAY better than the Muslim terrorist skum that is hamas.
Removed by mod
How many Israeli soldiers paraded around naked bodies of innocent people they murdered?
How many Israeli soldiers attacked people at a music festival?
Israel is not innocent but the levels evil displayed by Hamas are horrifying.
I can’t point you to specific circumstances that match your exact descriptions, but the IDF kills Palestinians fairly frequently, often just walking around or at their homes. Is that better? It’s like breeding contempt in people causes them to do horrible things out of hatred.
Israel literally exists because western nations divided land and gave it to Jewish settlers, who then captured more land through war and has continuously extended its colonial efforts.
This isn’t to justify anything, just to provide context. Israel isn’t any better. Zionism is pure evil, and Israel currently runs on zionism.
I haven’t read of any cases of the IDF killing innocent people walking around their homes. If true that’s terrible. Do you have a source for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing_by_Israel
https://www.thejc.com/news/news/anger-over-sickening-claim-in-newspaper-that-idf-shot-dead-innocent-teen-15hw7KfsupBthOuGTLDQew
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/06/israel
https://www.google.com/search?q=IDF killing of innocent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m
The target killing was an IDF policy to take out terrorists when they didn’t pose an immediate threat.
The "innocen"t teen was a member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a terrorists organization, this was confirmed by his own social media posts and PIJ claiming him as a martyr.
The 3rd article outlines terrible behavior and cover-ups of killing innocent people. I am glad many soldiers have reported these incidents, that’s how reform starts.
The last link is just a Google query, because of how google works I cannot verify that the searches I am seeing are the ones you see. Most of mine were links to the current attacks or to the other articles you cited.
There’s a lot more. I included the Google search so you could find more if you want. Sure, you can find excuses for all of it, but there’s a lot. There’s the time the IDF killed the medic when they were checking on someone (someone I think they shot while protesting IIRC). There’s plenty. I didn’t want to spend forever on it, and yeah also a lot is about this ongoing event so it’s harder to find what you’re looking for.
That you, Shapiro?
Yeah at this point the world would do well to either put a giant glass dome over them. Soundproof, of course.
Hopefully it’s air leak proof too.
There is a novel by Stephen King “Under the Dome”. A tv series also was made with similar name.
is the joke that you want them all to suffocate to death?
Well, actually… Chernobyl has shown us how to establish a long lasting war-free zone.
Most peaceful place on Earth, even while surrounded by an ongoing war, self-preserving whether soldiers know to not dig trenches in the red forest or not, great for nature and wildlife, and it’s going to be like that for the next 20,000 years or so.
If evangelicals have their say, they might get something similar going on in the region:
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/israeli-us-evangelical-alliance-zionism-antisemitism
Pripyat should be habitable again in the next 200-300 years. We may not survive that long, but the radiation levels are checked pretty regularly, and steadily dropping. The Sarcophagus may take a bit longer than that before it’s safe to clean up.
Actually, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Chernobyl
Captured on February 24th.
Ran away with radiation poisoning on April 1st.
Sounds like a decent war-free area.
53% of Palestinians (not only Gazans, where the % is likely significantly higher) are supporters of Hamas.
Source:
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
the rest of them support fatah who just released a statement condoning the attacks.
When ISIS shot up a israeli civilian, Palestinians (both in gaza and west bank) was cheering FOR ISIS.
There is no alternative. Palestine is a failed Islamist state.
Support of Hamas is not the same as not condoning the attacks, it’s a false dichotomy. Of course it helps that they’re very anti-Israel, but it’s not necessarily a 1:1 thing. They also provide necessities in the Gaza Strip, so people tend to support them because they appreciate things like healthcare and food.
Israel took their lands and kicked them out of their houses, kills them by the hundreds, the world does nothing because Israel is a friend of the US who do you think they are going to turn to if not to rebels?
ukrainians were treated worse. did they kill and rape civilians intentionally? meanwhile
If Palestine stop fighting there would be peace. If Israel stop fighting there will be no. Israel. each time Palestinians are the aggressors. [
Israel is not the aggressor. Both the war of Independence (1948) and the Yom Kippur war (1973) were initiated by Arab forces. The Six-day war was initiated by Israel, but it was a preemptive strike and there’s no doubt the Arabs were planning on attacking sooner rather than later, so you can count that in as well.
Oh, and I guess you can count some of the bigger escalations between Israelis and Palestinians as wars, if you’d like. In that case, both the first and second Intifadahs were initiated by Palestinians.
I mean, no, the Israelis are aggressors, in that they walked into an existing country and tried to claim a vast amount of it. They’re the Confederacy, but not even from the same country originally.
How do you mean? Peace in an apartheid state where they are always behind a separation wall or a checkpoint?
Which was in direct response toooo… Suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism.
It’s amazing, it actually led to a dramatic decrease in suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism (until it didn’t). I was against the wall because it led to less opportunities for interaction, but after seeing the precipitous drop in terrorism, I can understand why even progressive Israelis were not shedding too many tears when the walls started being built en masse.
If Palestinians stopped fighting, there would still be illegal settlements encroaching on their already-compromised territory. Palestinians missed real opportunities for peace MANY MANY times. Only one real peace effort was ruined by Israel (the ultra orthodox murdering Yitzhak Rabin).
Since you are comparing it to Ukraine, this would be like saying that the war in Ukraine is justified because Ukrainians didn’t stop fighting and gave up the Donbass and Crimea to the Russians.
If Palestinians stopped fighting they would cease to exists.
before gaza did palestine cease to exist?
if israel really does not want palestine it can just get rid of it in a snap.
If they won’t give up their genocidal ideas they deserve to cease to exist. ignoring also the 2 state solution proposed many times that is ALWAYS turned down by Palestine. Funny how that works aint it?
BTW this is taken directly from the founding charter of HAMAS, “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."
This is true, but many people are turning blind eyes to this fact.
there is so much to unpack here the Palestinian narrative is very misunderstood.
*Are still actively kicking
I support them turning to rebels. I don’t support them turning to terrorists who intentionally murder innocent civilians. There is a large distinction between the two.
That’s my point, I don’t think anyone that is sane and in good faith supports any terrorist organization but you can’t blame the population of Gaza to see in Hamas their defenders.
Sure I can. They turned to terrorists who murder innocent civilians. They should not do that.
What alternative do they have?
There are many choices besides “nothing” and “murder innocent people.” Even if those were the only choices, nothing is better. Hurting innocent people doesn’t improve the lives of Palestinians. It makes them worse. It also hurts innocent people.
In their eyes, Israel has been hurting innocent people since this began. They received no international condemnation for it. The innocent people in Palestine went largely ignored by the international community.
So give them a solution they’ve never thought of before. I’m sure your internet degree is sufficient to convince them.
Everyone likes to preach about how it’s wrong to do the thing they’re doing, but nobody EVER has an alternative that will actually work, or hasn’t been tried before.
I don’t have a solution, and THIS certainly isn’t it, but then I’m not dragging a soapbox around with me.
Go give the IRA a better solution. Go give the American colonists a better solution against the redcoats. Give the poor of france a better solution during the French revolution.
I don’t have a better way, but don’t pretend like you do
they can not do that.
“Have you tried not being repressed?”
I love that the answer to alternatives is “not that.” So you suggest they continue to do nothing and let the IDF kill innocent people? This isn’t “good” but neither is the status quo.
And get crushed by Israel? That’s not a choice.
I’m in a couple of arguments right now with blatant Hamas supporters. And not the religious ones, just the edgy “anyone anti Israel is unequivocally good even when they rape and murder civilians”.
I hope these dumbasses grow up a bit.
I’m sure you’ll change their views. Godspeed!
Somehow whenever this is shown it’s almost like saying the Gazans deserve it. Do they really deserve to be between a rock and a hard place every day and forever?
Literally every rebellion is fueled by terrorism. I’m just going to assume you’re from the US, because the odds are high. Look into our rebellion. It’s not particularly pretty. The difference between something being called a rebellion or terrorism is which side you’re on, and in the future which side won.
Edit: Usually media doesn’t go into this, but some does. I appreciate how Star Trek Deep Space 9 analyzes terrorism and discusses how it’s sometimes necessary and sometimes it’s evil, and sometimes it’s a necessary evil. I also appreciate how Andor has done this for Star Wars. The rebellion there has always been this pristine thing to the viewers, but Andor dives into how it has to behave behind the scenes. It’s not just the epic battles of our main heroes, it’s a fight between life and death for everyday people who are severely under-armed.
I strongly disagree, but I suspect this will quickly devolve into an argument about the semantics of “terrorism.” So I’ll focus on this part: “intentionally murder innocent civilians.” I do not agree that all successful rebellions required the intentional murder of innocent civilians.
That part is debatable, and it also depends on the semantics of innocent. If you announce you want to irradicate the other people, are you innocent? If you vote for that, are you innocent? Guilt doesn’t just require carrying a gun or Hitler would be innocent.
The problem with the word terrorism is its all semantics. Every government (or sudo-government entity) is a terrorist if you want them to be. It’s a useless word. If you use fear or force to try to enforce something, you’re a terrorist. The IDF walks around with guns to keep things in check. That’s terrorism by almost any definition, but it depends on who’s talking.
If I took your family’s house and people’s sovereignty away for a few generations would you still be able to stand on your moral highground?
Are you asking if I’d rape and murder innocent women if I felt aggrieved by a third party? I can confidently say that, no, I would not do that. Is that really standing on a moral high ground, or just not being a murderous, psychopathic, piece of shit?
Go live in Gaza and show them all how morally superior you are.
If I lived in Gaza I would be royally pissed at Hamas but wouldn’t say a thing because I enjoy being alive. If I lived in Gaza I would understand that the leadership was corrupt and pocketed millions of dollars of Israeli and international aid intended to allow Gaza to have its own power and water plants. If I lived in Gaza I would do my best not to live in Gaza, but would be not allowed to leave because no Arab country wants any more Palestinians then they already have.
No I was saying step outside of your own experience and really try to empathize with others. You should do it in all issues. Your other comment I felt showed you mostly ignored that.
I can’t sympathise with murderous rapists. I can’t imagine any common ground. I sympathise with the peaceful people of Palestine. Those few who don’t support Hamas.
And those few make enough loud booms that create red mist carnage to ruin it for the rest of the people. Israel’s response to terrorism is understandable. The problem is that modern-day zealots do shit like create illegal settlements. Israel tried preventing illegal settlements to be repaid with more bombs. Now they know they’re going to get attacked either way. This will not end well, especially with Israel’s current government.
I can understand that a person in a barbaric situation would turn to barbarism.
It is our responsibility as sentient beings to NOT do that. For some of us it is easier than others. But it is everyone’s responsibility. Regardless of circumstance.
Right – But to make desperate people who cheer misguidedly ‘the other’ and different from us dehumanizes them which comes with all kinds of bad side effects, many of which you can see on display here.
You can do both – You can not condone violence while understanding why a group of people treated like they’re not people can fail to uphold high morals in this situation without gloating or pretending they’re made of stuff you’re not. We’re all just people.
Citi Bank took my parents’ home and thus any inheritance the family had coming. So one can theoretically go murder those executives’ children as compensation and be morally right, yes? Or is putting in more identifiable terms highlighting how insane that logic actually is?
Native Americans can invade American preschools and cut the throats of all the toddlers similar to what Hamas has uploaded to the internet with Israeli kids, yes?
Don’t you see the slippery slope and immoral position you hold here?
Bad people love to wear the mantle of victim because it justifies all the evil shit they do.
Rebels who do nothing aren’t really rebels though. Think of star wars.
The death star had tons of independent contractors.
Yeah, and blowing it up was a shit move and not okay. Fuck the rebels pulling that kind of shit.
Destroy its weapon system, sure. But not blow up the whole station. I mean the only difference here is that the Imperium blew up an actual planet, not an artificial one.
Imagine virtue signalling for the literal Nazi allegory
Didn’t you know that might makes right? Do you even lift, bro?
/s
Bad analogy. Death Star is not a civilian target.
Israeli settlements and military bases are installed by the government to keep control of an illegally conquered area.
If you are looking to liberate that land, stuff installed by the the offending government for military purposes is not civilian.
Israel is using its own citizens for it’s benefit without regard for their safety.
The death star was a military base they a attacked a military base.
The rebels didn’t murder and rape the ewoks in the middle of the yub nub festival.
This is a fair point. I didnt really pay as much attention as to how it all went down, i know they blew up a tank and a few people died and hostages were taken. All that being said, it is illegally conquered land and it is immediately next to a military installation.
Havent heard about rape yet
That woulda been a very different movie
You really haven’t seen any of the headlines and videos about the girls they kidnapped, raped, beat and then shot to death? Or the families, including children, that they murdered? There’s video all over the internet, how did you miss it?
Well regardless, now you know. True acts of barbarism against innocent civilians.
It seems you don’t pay much attention to the history of jerselum either. The “rightful” owners of the land depends on when you claim that this is when ownership was established.
I’m not arguing rebels should do nothing. I’m arguing they should not assault, rape, and murder innocent women.
the death toll is a bit higher than that
5,590 Palestinians and 251 Israelis died in conflict from 2008–2020
Yeah it’s almost like Israel has been sabotaging all peace talks for decades.
The only side in this conflict that could have ended it was Israel, back when Palestine was not controlled by Hamas, but they instead chose to destroy any chance at that.
And then they of course continued to blockade Gaza, starve people, block their access to water, continue illegal settlements, and so on.
Israel is a genocidal fascist state.
not more than palestine.
jews and palestinians are more safer in israel than in palestine.
The people in Palestine are unsafe because of the powerful fashist state trying to wipe them out.
Jews and Palestinians in Israel are safer because they have all the military power and funding from the American religious quacks.
It’s not a fair comparison.
Edit: leaving the typo for context further down
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The person above me made a grammatical error. I didn’t call them out nor do I think it voids an otherwise perfectly coherent statement. This is because I’m not a cunt.
Also can you point out what I misspelt, my phone’s dictionary isnt’t complaining. Thank you.
You spelt fascist as fashist but it is still perfectly readable to anyone.
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Oops lol looked it up and TIL fashist was a fascist magazine
Your own source contradicts you about the Fatah number…
You’re not supposed to read the links…
/s
Seriously tho, it’s a huge problem on lemmy where people just throw a random link in a comment and nobody checks it
I noticed that since the day I got here. If you spoke shit on Reddit you were destroyed by fact checkers. That doesn’t happen here.
Not praising Reddit. Not condemning Lemmy. Just stating an observation.
Or banned by hyper partisan mods.
Fediverse is really feifdomverse.
It will take years for communities to shake out the power hungry morons who jumped here for the sole purpose of being in charge.
Probably just fewer people, so less likely to have that 1% that actually read the links.
People in this thread are far too busy comparing the situation to anime or star wars to read about it and form their own opinions.
I don’t know what thought would be more depressing: if you’re just shilling, and this is your job (We know the are lots of people who do what you just did, for a living), or if you actually believe what you’re saying.
I’m not sure which is worse.
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I always answer surveys about the local killers accurately.
The absurd thing is that Israel helped create and fund Hamas initially as a counterweight to the largely secular leftist Palestine Liberation Organization under Yasser Arafat. This whole situation is partially blowback from an Israeli effort to divide-and-conquer Palestine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/opinion/letters/israel-gaza-palestinians.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
The secular PLO has now largely been supplanted by Hamas in Gaza.
Blowback like this is the hidden story of the modern age. Every world and regional power has attempted it and been burned, multiple times over.
Heck, one could argue it’s exactly what happened in 1776, and the trend has never stopped!