The greatest support Trump could ever receive in 2024 are democrats running Biden.
But yeah, if Biden loses it will be the fault of progressives who didn’t fall in line, not the establishment for running awful candidates.
History continues to repeat itself. It’s always Progressive’s fault, never Democrats. Even when checks notes, Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump. Nobody blamed the moderates for nominating her. They all blamed the Progressives for not ‘falling in line.’
Were… were the moderates not going to fall in line behind Bernie? Hmm. Hopefully you can start to see what a crapshoot this all is and how you’re doing your part perpetuating it.
I’ll vote for democrats when they run candidates that represent me and the moderates can just ‘fall in line’ because they’re so afraid of republicans.
Look, this is the system we have and it sucks, but the choices are “weak candidate” vs “evil candidate that is likely going to try to destroy our democracy.”
Voting third party means voting for the second guy, which is going to make our shit system even worse.
There are multiple states and territories for which the margin of victory for presidential elections has never been so slim that their state flipping would have ever effected the race. Its hilarious watching centerests get mad when something like less than 20% of the country has any material leverage on how it shakes out.
no we’re not. You’re both right. You’re right that you are absolutely allowed to not vote for someone if you don’t feel like that Person is representing you.
But just know that by not Voting for Biden, you are making it easier for Trump to win. This is just the way the System works. There is no Opinion to be had about this, this is just Fact.
My distinction is that the blame should be put on those voting for the ‘lesser-evil’ to maintain a negative peace instead of those fighting for a greater good.
Blame everyone who voted for, checks notes, Hillary fucking Clinton to guarantee a Trump presidency just so Bernie couldn’t fuck the ruling class.
It’s their fault, not ours.
The lesser evil is still evil. Good people aren’t bad for not going along with it.
When the lesser of two evils becomes lesser of two genocides we can either accept this is a stupid strategy that does not and has not worked across decades, or double down and accept everything that comes because of the strategy, like Trump.
We are civilians, we do not get to change the system, we don’t even get to recall our federal reps after the election. We can vote once every year or so and that’s it. Either keep doing what got us here or try something new but your power ends at the ballot unless you have the time and money to basically stalk politicians.
There will never be a good time to abandon lesser evilism, and there will always be an evil that could win. In fact by nature of lesser evils, the winner must be evil. The best time to break away is whenever you can convince yourself to do so. For many people genocide is a hard line and they are realizing this. It’s hard to fault someone for trying something new when the old way bore genocidal fruit.
In the two party American system its a choice between two devils. Right no thats looking like Biden vs Trump. Not choosing one of these devils is a vote for the devil you preferred even less. Its a shitty system sure but for now its what we have. Are these two devils really equally bad from your perspective?
I voted for Clinton in 2016 as the lesser of two evils. She lost. Maybe the Democratic party should listen when voters are telling them their candidate is shit.
I don’t need a historical precedent. This is a democracy. The votes are not owed. The votes must be won. If 4% is the number who are telling you something and you can’t win without that 4%, it might behoove you to pay attention to what they’re telling you.
I didn’t downvote you. It’s almost like other people exist in the comment section and can vote.
The greater of the evils would happily seek to make me go round out my trans friends and kill them, then later seek to get my white friends to round me up and kill me after that’s done. I’m really happy you feel you have the luxury of moral superiority, but that doesn’t matter here at the endgame.
The lesser of two evils is currently arming, funding, giving military planning and operational guidance to, and vetoing UN resolutions for an apartheid state that has bombed thousands of women and children in the last two months. A state that has 2+ million people living in a squalid hellhole somewhere between a ghetto and a concentration camp. Where the majority of people are now displaced, lack food, and clean water. Where there are likely still thousands of bodies decaying under rubble all paid for with our tax dollars.
Worst case scenario I’ll end up in a mass grave here too. But I’m not going to actively vote for it to happen to someone else so that it won’t hypothetically maybe happen to me.
As I said, I am happy for your comfortable position (mental or otherwise) to be so noble. I can’t help change the world if I’m dead or in work camp, and honestly helping the marginalized in my community already takes all the effective energy I can muster. I guess since I can not hold all of the world’s sins at hand, I must defer to you and grab a shovel?
Do what you need to do of course, but know it will backfire. If enough idealistic people like you refuse to vote for the Democrat then we are at risk of losing what democracy we have had for a much worse system. Remember, Trump was happy to put kids in cages.
If people supporting the lesser evil don’t want to end up with the greater evil, then they should run candidates who are good. Trump won the presidency because people nominated one of the worst candidates in history over someone who was legitimately a good option.
This isn’t that difficult. We don’t solve these problems because we don’t want to.
You can keep doing your part to perpetuate a system that caused George Washington to never speak to Thomas Jefferson again, but I’m done.
If you have a problem with me, tell everyone who supports the lesser-evil it’s their fault. As soon as they start supporting someone good, I will join them.
If they cannot do that, then that is a tacit admission that they would prefer to not have my support.
Dems and repubs will never change the laws to weaken their power and strengthen 3rd parties. Full stop. Waiting for it to happen is foolish. Abandon the evil.
It’s not even douche vs turd sandwich at this point. It’s a dead horse vs the biggest traitor to the US in modern history. It’s a single vote system. Both sides think this and somehow one actually believes the only possible vote is for the felon. Everything is broken and I’m not going to perpetuate it. I wish I could illegally immigrate to northern Europe and get free everything. Too bad I’m a highly educated US citizen which means I need a matching high skilled job, several years, and a couple hundred thousand euros.
If you vote 3rd party, it is absolutely a vote for trump. The reason this is said over and over is because history has born it out as 100% how it works. Stick your fucking head in the sand and be smug and self righteous all you want. Reality will remain intact
Bernie would have challenged the billionaire classes power and hoarding of wealth. The democrats knew he was a slam dunk against trump, but chose to risk losing the election in favor of protecting the status quo.
Especially since it’s a lie that they’re moderate. If you’re taking a global view, they’re actually right-wing. The moderate, centrist positions are what Bernie was advocating. The Overton Window in US politics has moved so far to the right it’s ridiculous.
Voting 3rd party is voting for Trump.
The greatest support Trump could ever receive in 2024 are democrats running Biden.
But yeah, if Biden loses it will be the fault of progressives who didn’t fall in line, not the establishment for running awful candidates.
History continues to repeat itself. It’s always Progressive’s fault, never Democrats. Even when checks notes, Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump. Nobody blamed the moderates for nominating her. They all blamed the Progressives for not ‘falling in line.’
Were… were the moderates not going to fall in line behind Bernie? Hmm. Hopefully you can start to see what a crapshoot this all is and how you’re doing your part perpetuating it.
I’ll vote for democrats when they run candidates that represent me and the moderates can just ‘fall in line’ because they’re so afraid of republicans.
Look, this is the system we have and it sucks, but the choices are “weak candidate” vs “evil candidate that is likely going to try to destroy our democracy.”
Voting third party means voting for the second guy, which is going to make our shit system even worse.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hey. Can I ask if you live in a swing state?
If not, then all these people are moralizing toward you for no reason.
I live right next to a swing state.
Personally, I’m all for democrats moving from states like Texas to states like Arkansas. I think ~2m people voted for Biden in the 2020 election.
The population of Arkansas is ~3m, to put things into perspective.
There are multiple states and territories for which the margin of victory for presidential elections has never been so slim that their state flipping would have ever effected the race. Its hilarious watching centerests get mad when something like less than 20% of the country has any material leverage on how it shakes out.
no we’re not. You’re both right. You’re right that you are absolutely allowed to not vote for someone if you don’t feel like that Person is representing you.
But just know that by not Voting for Biden, you are making it easier for Trump to win. This is just the way the System works. There is no Opinion to be had about this, this is just Fact.
I 100% acknowledge and accept that.
My distinction is that the blame should be put on those voting for the ‘lesser-evil’ to maintain a negative peace instead of those fighting for a greater good.
Blame everyone who voted for, checks notes, Hillary fucking Clinton to guarantee a Trump presidency just so Bernie couldn’t fuck the ruling class.
It’s their fault, not ours.
The lesser evil is still evil. Good people aren’t bad for not going along with it.
Well spoken. A vote for Biden is a vote for Genocide.
Unfortunately, a vote for Trump is too.
It’s just. The lesser-genocide is still genocide.
What path do we have to break this cycle other than to abandon it?
When the lesser of two evils becomes lesser of two genocides we can either accept this is a stupid strategy that does not and has not worked across decades, or double down and accept everything that comes because of the strategy, like Trump.
We are civilians, we do not get to change the system, we don’t even get to recall our federal reps after the election. We can vote once every year or so and that’s it. Either keep doing what got us here or try something new but your power ends at the ballot unless you have the time and money to basically stalk politicians.
There will never be a good time to abandon lesser evilism, and there will always be an evil that could win. In fact by nature of lesser evils, the winner must be evil. The best time to break away is whenever you can convince yourself to do so. For many people genocide is a hard line and they are realizing this. It’s hard to fault someone for trying something new when the old way bore genocidal fruit.
Maybe instead of focusing all of our voting power on the presidential elections, we should all be more engaged with our local elections.
In the two party American system its a choice between two devils. Right no thats looking like Biden vs Trump. Not choosing one of these devils is a vote for the devil you preferred even less. Its a shitty system sure but for now its what we have. Are these two devils really equally bad from your perspective?
When even the lesser of two evils is complicity in ethnic cleansing and genocide, then I think I’ll opt to vote for someone not evil instead.
It worked in 2016 too!
I voted for Clinton in 2016 as the lesser of two evils. She lost. Maybe the Democratic party should listen when voters are telling them their candidate is shit.
You honestly think that 4% of voters will convince anyone of anything? Surely you have historical precedent for holding such a belief?
Edit: interesting, I’ll take the downvote as an indication you have zero argument whatsoever besides naive PrInCiPlEs
I don’t need a historical precedent. This is a democracy. The votes are not owed. The votes must be won. If 4% is the number who are telling you something and you can’t win without that 4%, it might behoove you to pay attention to what they’re telling you.
I didn’t downvote you. It’s almost like other people exist in the comment section and can vote.
Naive PrInCiPlEs it is indeed. They will certainly work out for you because they have before. /s
Oh sorry I almost forgot, history is irrelevant when it comes time to make decisions
The greater of the evils would happily seek to make me go round out my trans friends and kill them, then later seek to get my white friends to round me up and kill me after that’s done. I’m really happy you feel you have the luxury of moral superiority, but that doesn’t matter here at the endgame.
The lesser of two evils is currently arming, funding, giving military planning and operational guidance to, and vetoing UN resolutions for an apartheid state that has bombed thousands of women and children in the last two months. A state that has 2+ million people living in a squalid hellhole somewhere between a ghetto and a concentration camp. Where the majority of people are now displaced, lack food, and clean water. Where there are likely still thousands of bodies decaying under rubble all paid for with our tax dollars.
Worst case scenario I’ll end up in a mass grave here too. But I’m not going to actively vote for it to happen to someone else so that it won’t hypothetically maybe happen to me.
As I said, I am happy for your comfortable position (mental or otherwise) to be so noble. I can’t help change the world if I’m dead or in work camp, and honestly helping the marginalized in my community already takes all the effective energy I can muster. I guess since I can not hold all of the world’s sins at hand, I must defer to you and grab a shovel?
Do what you need to do of course, but know it will backfire. If enough idealistic people like you refuse to vote for the Democrat then we are at risk of losing what democracy we have had for a much worse system. Remember, Trump was happy to put kids in cages.
I’d say from the perspective of a Palestinian in Gaza or the perspective of a refugee in a concentration camp, yes.
The lesser evil is still evil.
If people supporting the lesser evil don’t want to end up with the greater evil, then they should run candidates who are good. Trump won the presidency because people nominated one of the worst candidates in history over someone who was legitimately a good option.
This isn’t that difficult. We don’t solve these problems because we don’t want to.
You can keep doing your part to perpetuate a system that caused George Washington to never speak to Thomas Jefferson again, but I’m done.
If you have a problem with me, tell everyone who supports the lesser-evil it’s their fault. As soon as they start supporting someone good, I will join them.
If they cannot do that, then that is a tacit admission that they would prefer to not have my support.
“Well, maybe the Democrats should have run good candidates if they wanted my vote!” - voter watching minorities herded into camps.
Wrong
Come on. Use your words.
History already did that. Others in this thread did too. Not wasting any more of my time with bad faith arguers
Dems and repubs will never change the laws to weaken their power and strengthen 3rd parties. Full stop. Waiting for it to happen is foolish. Abandon the evil.
It’s not even douche vs turd sandwich at this point. It’s a dead horse vs the biggest traitor to the US in modern history. It’s a single vote system. Both sides think this and somehow one actually believes the only possible vote is for the felon. Everything is broken and I’m not going to perpetuate it. I wish I could illegally immigrate to northern Europe and get free everything. Too bad I’m a highly educated US citizen which means I need a matching high skilled job, several years, and a couple hundred thousand euros.
If you vote 3rd party, it is absolutely a vote for trump. The reason this is said over and over is because history has born it out as 100% how it works. Stick your fucking head in the sand and be smug and self righteous all you want. Reality will remain intact
Okay.
Bernie would have challenged the billionaire classes power and hoarding of wealth. The democrats knew he was a slam dunk against trump, but chose to risk losing the election in favor of protecting the status quo.
I totally agree.
This is the problem with American politics.
The lesser evil is still evil, yet good people want to convince themselves otherwise.
It’s all about avoiding conflict and maintaining a negative peace. Dr. King had a lot to say on it.
Fuck the moderate white.
Especially since it’s a lie that they’re moderate. If you’re taking a global view, they’re actually right-wing. The moderate, centrist positions are what Bernie was advocating. The Overton Window in US politics has moved so far to the right it’s ridiculous.
No, voting for Trump is voting for Trump. Blaming alternative parties for Trump splits the left.
Nah, it’s cool it’s cool. The election after this one will be a vote for Trump, because he’ll be the only one on the ballot.
Then the U.S should stop fucking around