I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
It does not mean wholehearted support for literally everything its government does, which Biden very much does not have. He and Netanyahu are not exactly friends.
That you and the other comment about this are massively downvoted despite being accurate really shows how Lemmy is changing.
I get it, they may not like what the truth stands for or that there’s nuance here, with POTUS recent words and actions setting a poor standard. The whole situation certainly sucks but so does the knee-jerk reactions on many of these threads.
And? You’re a mouth piece for the president?
A president of all people should understand what words mean given context (quite lacking in the U.S right now). It’s quite bold of you to give excuses on behalf of someone who says they are a zionist without even knowing if they were ignorant or deliberately trying to dogwhistle. You might come off as daft if you’re proven wrong.
And? They weren’t downvoting the president, they were pushing down legitimate information that was specifically asked for by a non-American. Historical even.
Not everything is a dog whistle and this isn’t even sly or hidden, he outright admits it and always has. Sheesh.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
I hate elections because it makes me feel even more like a weirdo, and that I have far, far less in common with my neighbors than I think.
I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
Is it though? Americans do not really care about foreigners getting killed. A lot are actually in favor of Israel killing people and/or Muslims being killed in general. It’s not a given he will lose more votes than he will gain from ‘moderate’ Republicans. After all Democrat voters will be whipped into line with the ‘but Trump/lesser evil’ argument. This’ sub’s mod has smeared himself up in shit and is going hard at it.
Because saying you are a Zionist is simply to say that you believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist and be secure. It’s not saying that Israeli policy towards Palestian’s isn’t a inhumane cluster-fuck.
Thank you. The anti semitism on here is actually terrifying. Either there are a lot of people who don’t realize what they are saying, or they truly are anti semites just waiting to come out of the closet.
Luckily, they are not the majority in the real world. It seems to be highschool and university students who do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
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Being anti Zionist isn’t antisemitic.
Nope but that’s exactly why they keep trying to make that a thing
Its absolutely not. Neither is suggesting (for example) that Israel is committing war crimes. But you can be extremeky critical of Israel and still think it has a right to exist, in line with long-stamding US foreign policy and the U.N efforts to find a two-state solution. Anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist, by the dictionary definition. And that includes Biden - and me.
The difficulty is that the term ‘Zionism’ comes wiith a lot of extremely unpleasant shit associated with it.
Opposing apartheid in any context is not antisemitic. Conflating criticism of oppression and occupation as condemning an entire religion is extremely obtuse. Surely you’re not that fucking dense.
I don’t know why you have to resort to insults. You’re the second person to insult me and I am not really sure why since I only said I’m concerned about anti sentism.
I also beleive Israel has the right to exist and be secure. This is not controversial. Most of the western world officially takes this position. If you want to insult me for that, then I guess go ahead.
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I beg your pardon, but I know a few “orthodox ones” (like women shaving their head and wearing a wig, no electricity, no money and no leaving your house and district at Saturdays etc) and they are nice people ; however I’ve met some who probably eat pork and they’ve been among the most unpleasant people I’ve met.
Also most of Europe consists of “ethno-states”, so let’s please drop that too.
I agree that Israel’s size and extent should be reduced, and they shouldn’t be allowed to police any population but their own.
If you casually state you’d wish for a third diaspora, you’ll have to forgive me for thinking that you’re not, in fact, fine with Jews.
I disagree that a religious ethno-state has a right to exist. I’m anti-zionist for the same reason I don’t like the regimes in charge in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
And that’s fine - that’s a morally consistent position, that I respect. My main point was to try and explain why Bidenmight have used those words.
He’s been saying it for decades (literally), it’s only now that it garners so much attention. Look, I can find 100 reasons to dislike the guy but being consistent isn’t one of them.
80s documentation: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-12-28/ty-article/rare-1986-document-reveals-bidens-views-on-israel-and-saudi-arabia/0000017f-f2ca-d8a1-a5ff-f2ca769b0000
Did you mean to say “being inconsistent”?
I did not. The wording is based on how this matches his past statements. In this case, he’s being consistent and I can’t hate on that.
I can, however, hate the monetary support we’re sending there and dozens of other things.
Because old fucks in politics can’t keep their goddamn mouths shut about anything. Gotta pander, but unfortunately there a lot more cameras and microphones at everything they attend, unlike when they were my age.
Can we just pull the reset rope on government and replace all positions with people that represent the average demographic age that will actually see the future we’re building? I honestly do not care what some 80 year old thinks society should be like. When they were my age, black people were still not allowed in schools with them.
Zionism and Nazism have more in common that just a z.
What exactly? I agree that Israel has done mistakes. However, that’s not fault of zionism, just like Slovakia’s mistakes were not the fault of czechoslovakism
Its an ideology that has inspired an ongoing genocide for the past 75 years to start, its religious colonialism. When did slovakia do a genocide inspired/justified by a few thousand year old text?
You are calling genocide something that is not a genocide. Definitely not for 75 years. The need for the existence of Israel became mainly present after the WW2. The most logical choice of land was middle east due to the historical ties.
Yes, I agree that 1948 exodus of Palestinians was handled terribly (also from the Israel’s side) but it was a direct result the war that happened there (which was btw started by Arab nations).
They each have an n and an i also
And then there’s that thing with the s as well
And don’t forget the m!
So that’s why Russians who are supporting the invasion of Ukraine use the letter Z, I get it now.
Imagine a Catholic or Muslim president loudly say he identify with movement that sole purpose is to genocide people from a land and live on it.
Nonetheless, a movement that resulted in multiple miltant organization that considerd as a terrorist organization by the US and the UK. Yes the literally bombed hotels where UK officials where staying at. Then become the current IDF.
Joe lost the plot.
Are you familiar with European history?
Not the best choice of words from Joe.
Yeah, not a good look given the public image already surrounding the conflict.
“I really want to lose this election.”
He’s old, and in his youth saying that made politicians more popular, not less.
Welcome to the Lemmy.
Only because Zionist has become a racist term used against Jewish people of all stripes, regardless of whether they’re Israeli or not.
Let’s go Brandon
I’m starting to call him Genocide Joe.
I mean, the guy was VP to Drone Strike Obama
It fits well being sung to the G.I. Joe jingle.
Where did you come from, where did you go?
Genocidin’ Biden
Okay I understand he wants his legacy to be genocide Joe, but fucking read the room.
OK, so hear me out: anyone who is for a Two State Solution can legitimately call themselves a zionist, because one of those two states is going to be Israel.
a political movement that was originally begun in order to establish an independent state for Jewish people, and now supports the development and protection of the state of Israel
In current parlance, “zionism” has come be equated with kahanism and its variations, but that is wildly inaccurate. This is to say that Netanyahu’s and his allies’ brand of zionism is an extremist variant that threatens to subsume the whole.
But there are other brands of zionism that are peaceful and pro-palestinian. Namely: the zionism of Fatah and the PLO, who have accepted the 2 state solution.
I would even go so far as to claim that any One State Solution that envisions a pluralistic and democratic country shared in freedom and liberty between Jews, Muslims, Christians and others is also a zionist vision, as it assumes that this state would also be for the Jewish people (similar to how Canada is supposed to be also for the Quebecois people).
So, I am not sure why “zionism” should be a dirty word. Call the extremist zionists what they are: kahanists, reclaim the basic idea that zionism means that Jews also have the right to be safe in the lands of Israel-Palestine, and let’s have some peace and reconciliation.
Cool.
Biden is not in favour of any of that.
A reasonable response? On Lemmy? Inconceivable.
All you have to do is pretend words don’t mean what they do.
My brother in Sigmar, I used the literal dictionary definition of the word.
That’s great, except it’s not how it’s actually used in either a geopolitical or casual context.
I doubt, very, very much Biden meant it that way either, because no one would ever use it that way in these circumstances without adding in your very explanation by requirement to make it clear they’re not calling for genocide.
Until Bernie Sanders the word socialism was a dirty word in American politics. Now it’s a millennial and gen Z staple and does not connotate the soviet union and other cold war ghosts.
The fact that the kahanist Zionists are almost done eating up the word zionism doesn’t mean we should let them. We need to be appropriating the word back and putting it to good use.
Conceding Zionism to the extreme right (both in and out of Israel )is just a lack of political imagination, that condemns us to stay locked in the cycle.
The word Zionism can and should be réappropriated and made a tool for peace. It has a strong emotional attachment for Jews, while the majority of Palestinian political and civil society organizations have embraced its original and literal meaning in the sense of support for a Two State Solution. This means that Zionism can be a word that means the common sense of peace, justice and reconciliation. When the PLO and Fatah stand for the common sense solution, Palestinians have won.
Call me naive but I actually think that soon there will exist a brief window where peace will be more possible than it has been for a long time. So long as Israel, currently controlled by the kahanist virus, is not allowed to carry out genocide, that is. And as much as my commie ass hates to admit It, I kinda have a bit of faith on the Americans to play a good role in this.
I think you’re roughly doing the equivalent of trying to reclaim crusade and jihad but keep on tilting at that windmill I guess.
Socialism is still very demonized in American politics. Try to get into a position of power while describing yourself as a socialist (and I mean an actual socialist eg. ending the Cuban embargo, supporting left-wing movements across the world and advocating for the end of capitalism).
Also neither Bernie nor any democratic politician is a actually socialist, they are still very capitalist. At best they are for "capitalism with a human face)
Exactly, I’m also thinking Mercosur’s role in this conflict will be decisive! Or were you talking about the USA that has eaten up the word America?
I agree with your point though, words get eaten up all the time. It’s a very good strategy for capturing the attachment people have with the word. It’s been done with the word democracy as well.
And provided the real word for extremist Zionists! 👏🏼 props :)
You used a learner’s dictionary definition of the word, which is a little bit different. Learner’s dictionaries are for people who are first learning their first language, and give simple definitions using simple language. Think of it like comparing Wikipedia to Simple Wikipedia
Zionism has always had multiple different meanings, so this isn’t a new phenomenon. Humans made up every word in existence. There is no single definition for any word and there is no universal dictionary handed down by some higher power. We make up everything and write the rules ourselves. Pretending that isn’t how language works on a fundamental level is simply wrong.
Why did you use the Oxford Leaner’s Dictionary to define Zionism, as opposed to the Oxford Reference? From the Oxford Reference, emphasis mine:
A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
In the same vein, why didn’t you use wikipedia to define Zionism like you did for for kahanism? FTA on Wikipedia about Zionism, emphasis mine:
Zionism (/ˈzaɪəˌnɪzəm/; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsīyyonūt, [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.
What both of these definitions point out that the one you linked did not mention is that original Zionism was about more than just the creation of a Jewish state–it was about the creation of a Jewish state in the Jewish holy land. That last bit is important-- there would be no Israeli-Palestinian conflict if Israel was located in Idaho.
I did not know the difference between the two types of dictionaries. I just used the last reference (#11) of the first paragraph from the Wikipedia article on Zionism.
But I don’t see how my argument is changed by the addition of the geographical component in the dictionary definition, which I already was assuming in my head at least. The Two State Solution is about two states in the areas that are currently Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
That’s kinda funny, I also found that Oxford Reference page by checking wikipedia citations. It’s #5 in the same article
yikes
Erdoğan vibes of betting on all horses
Ew, we had an infestation of Erdoğans living in our microwave once.
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What kind of moon logic is this?
while the belligerent actions of the country make every Jew inside and outside of Israel less safe.
… to a bunch of Jews inside the United States.
None of whom realize the fucking irony.
they do, oh sadly they do…
Please explain the irony.
Asking for a friend.
The statement was that Jewish people would not be safe anywhere without Israel
There are Jewish people living safely in many parts of the world, and those people are protected and loved by the communities they live as a part of.
The irony is that the statement was made to Jewish people in such a community outside of Israel. The other bit of irony is that statements like this are further divisions. Divisions that make life unsafe for everyone
Lmao yeah I see.
There are millions of Jews in Israel (or their children), right now, who are there because they were forcibly expelled from other Arab countries in the Middle East.
Why do you think there’s a 3000 year old synagogue in Aleppo, and only around four Jews in all of Syria?
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I would like to bring a counter point for you to consider.
When I put all my money in a bank, I have a guaranty from a regulatory body /government that in case of bankruptcy I will still get my money back, even if the bank goes bust.
This is similar for Jews around the world - Israel is an insurance policy. If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately. Because historically they’ve seen and still see how refugees are being treated and not welcome globally.
If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately.
That’s a great plan, since Jews are completely safe and definitely not in any danger in Israel.
I didn’t say it’s a great plan. But it’s better than no plan.
I don’t understand all the down votes. You don’t have to agree with it, it doesn’t even mean that I agree with it… But I just wanted to shine some context to why it’s not ironic to many Jews.
You’d think Bibi would’ve made it clear enough with this latest fiasco that clinging to a jingoist ideology is generally the opposite of safety.
ITT: Copium on still voting for this senile dumbass because the alternative is a brain dead orange or in the case that he is disqualified, another senile dumbass.
The choice is a guy who is okay with participating via weapons delivery in the active slaughtering of innocents half a world a way, or a guy who wants to slaughter everyone that doesnt worshop him as god at home.
What a fucking choice.
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A completely unsurprising comment from a .ml user.
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What, you don’t like the scare tactics being pushed by Dems and all of his supporters? You don’t like being shamed or scared into voting for a candidate you don’t really agree with?
Dang I thought that worked well in 2016, just barely in 2020, should be great this time around, too!
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Same here, 04 was my first election so I was still under the haze of my parents politics but I remember very similar language being used back then.
Literally had a campaign called VOTE OR DIE. lmao
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And 2 impeachments, 91 felony counts, and an attempt to overthrow American democracy.
But yah the main issue is the crass thing.
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Yes I give a shit about living in a democracy believe it or not. I’m an American. You’ve lost your mind to think that’s just some pretense.
The Supreme Court sided with Bush, Trump lost 50 court challenges and still denied the results and riled up his little cult of insurrectionists who attacked the capital and now continue to believe every GOP loss is the direct result of “Demonrats” stealing more elections.
“Crassness”. What a fucking joke.
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And Trump did much worse than Bush yet you cite Bush as some precedent to justify Trump even though you don’t actually support that precedent to begin with…? I have my own thoughts on Bush vs Gore, but sorry if I didn’t take your bait and engage about a completely different election, I knew it would end in some nonsense distraction like this.
Not even worth arguing with you, you seem perfectly content with arguing with whatever made up anti-crass, democracy-ambivalent character you’ve concocted in your head. Have fun with that.
I am a berliner
He’s a fuckin’ DONUT
I am also a doughnut. The cream filled kind.
Guess I’m voting 3rd party next election.
Voting 3rd party is voting for Trump.
Then the U.S should stop fucking around
No, voting for Trump is voting for Trump. Blaming alternative parties for Trump splits the left.
The greatest support Trump could ever receive in 2024 are democrats running Biden.
But yeah, if Biden loses it will be the fault of progressives who didn’t fall in line, not the establishment for running awful candidates.
History continues to repeat itself. It’s always Progressive’s fault, never Democrats. Even when checks notes, Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump. Nobody blamed the moderates for nominating her. They all blamed the Progressives for not ‘falling in line.’
Were… were the moderates not going to fall in line behind Bernie? Hmm. Hopefully you can start to see what a crapshoot this all is and how you’re doing your part perpetuating it.
I’ll vote for democrats when they run candidates that represent me and the moderates can just ‘fall in line’ because they’re so afraid of republicans.
Bernie would have challenged the billionaire classes power and hoarding of wealth. The democrats knew he was a slam dunk against trump, but chose to risk losing the election in favor of protecting the status quo.
I totally agree.
This is the problem with American politics.
The lesser evil is still evil, yet good people want to convince themselves otherwise.
It’s all about avoiding conflict and maintaining a negative peace. Dr. King had a lot to say on it.
Fuck the moderate white.
Fuck the moderate white.
Especially since it’s a lie that they’re moderate. If you’re taking a global view, they’re actually right-wing. The moderate, centrist positions are what Bernie was advocating. The Overton Window in US politics has moved so far to the right it’s ridiculous.
If you vote 3rd party, it is absolutely a vote for trump. The reason this is said over and over is because history has born it out as 100% how it works. Stick your fucking head in the sand and be smug and self righteous all you want. Reality will remain intact
Okay.
In the two party American system its a choice between two devils. Right no thats looking like Biden vs Trump. Not choosing one of these devils is a vote for the devil you preferred even less. Its a shitty system sure but for now its what we have. Are these two devils really equally bad from your perspective?
When even the lesser of two evils is complicity in ethnic cleansing and genocide, then I think I’ll opt to vote for someone not evil instead.
The greater of the evils would happily seek to make me go round out my trans friends and kill them, then later seek to get my white friends to round me up and kill me after that’s done. I’m really happy you feel you have the luxury of moral superiority, but that doesn’t matter here at the endgame.
The lesser of two evils is currently arming, funding, giving military planning and operational guidance to, and vetoing UN resolutions for an apartheid state that has bombed thousands of women and children in the last two months. A state that has 2+ million people living in a squalid hellhole somewhere between a ghetto and a concentration camp. Where the majority of people are now displaced, lack food, and clean water. Where there are likely still thousands of bodies decaying under rubble all paid for with our tax dollars.
Worst case scenario I’ll end up in a mass grave here too. But I’m not going to actively vote for it to happen to someone else so that it won’t hypothetically maybe happen to me.
As I said, I am happy for your comfortable position (mental or otherwise) to be so noble. I can’t help change the world if I’m dead or in work camp, and honestly helping the marginalized in my community already takes all the effective energy I can muster. I guess since I can not hold all of the world’s sins at hand, I must defer to you and grab a shovel?
Do what you need to do of course, but know it will backfire. If enough idealistic people like you refuse to vote for the Democrat then we are at risk of losing what democracy we have had for a much worse system. Remember, Trump was happy to put kids in cages.
It worked in 2016 too!
I voted for Clinton in 2016 as the lesser of two evils. She lost. Maybe the Democratic party should listen when voters are telling them their candidate is shit.
You honestly think that 4% of voters will convince anyone of anything? Surely you have historical precedent for holding such a belief?
Edit: interesting, I’ll take the downvote as an indication you have zero argument whatsoever besides naive PrInCiPlEs
Dems and repubs will never change the laws to weaken their power and strengthen 3rd parties. Full stop. Waiting for it to happen is foolish. Abandon the evil.
It’s not even douche vs turd sandwich at this point. It’s a dead horse vs the biggest traitor to the US in modern history. It’s a single vote system. Both sides think this and somehow one actually believes the only possible vote is for the felon. Everything is broken and I’m not going to perpetuate it. I wish I could illegally immigrate to northern Europe and get free everything. Too bad I’m a highly educated US citizen which means I need a matching high skilled job, several years, and a couple hundred thousand euros.
I’d say from the perspective of a Palestinian in Gaza or the perspective of a refugee in a concentration camp, yes.
The lesser evil is still evil.
If people supporting the lesser evil don’t want to end up with the greater evil, then they should run candidates who are good. Trump won the presidency because people nominated one of the worst candidates in history over someone who was legitimately a good option.
This isn’t that difficult. We don’t solve these problems because we don’t want to.
You can keep doing your part to perpetuate a system that caused George Washington to never speak to Thomas Jefferson again, but I’m done.
If you have a problem with me, tell everyone who supports the lesser-evil it’s their fault. As soon as they start supporting someone good, I will join them.
If they cannot do that, then that is a tacit admission that they would prefer to not have my support.
“Well, maybe the Democrats should have run good candidates if they wanted my vote!” - voter watching minorities herded into camps.
Wrong
Come on. Use your words.
History already did that. Others in this thread did too. Not wasting any more of my time with bad faith arguers
Look, this is the system we have and it sucks, but the choices are “weak candidate” vs “evil candidate that is likely going to try to destroy our democracy.”
Voting third party means voting for the second guy, which is going to make our shit system even worse.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
no we’re not. You’re both right. You’re right that you are absolutely allowed to not vote for someone if you don’t feel like that Person is representing you.
But just know that by not Voting for Biden, you are making it easier for Trump to win. This is just the way the System works. There is no Opinion to be had about this, this is just Fact.
I 100% acknowledge and accept that.
My distinction is that the blame should be put on those voting for the ‘lesser-evil’ to maintain a negative peace instead of those fighting for a greater good.
Blame everyone who voted for, checks notes, Hillary fucking Clinton to guarantee a Trump presidency just so Bernie couldn’t fuck the ruling class.
It’s their fault, not ours.
The lesser evil is still evil. Good people aren’t bad for not going along with it.
Well spoken. A vote for Biden is a vote for Genocide.
Maybe instead of focusing all of our voting power on the presidential elections, we should all be more engaged with our local elections.
Hey. Can I ask if you live in a swing state?
If not, then all these people are moralizing toward you for no reason.
There are multiple states and territories for which the margin of victory for presidential elections has never been so slim that their state flipping would have ever effected the race. Its hilarious watching centerests get mad when something like less than 20% of the country has any material leverage on how it shakes out.
I live right next to a swing state.
Personally, I’m all for democrats moving from states like Texas to states like Arkansas. I think ~2m people voted for Biden in the 2020 election.
The population of Arkansas is ~3m, to put things into perspective.
Nah, it’s cool it’s cool. The election after this one will be a vote for Trump, because he’ll be the only one on the ballot.
Please stop voting for these old fucks.
Being old isn’t the issue here
Cool story Joe. Lost my vote.
The republican party thanks you, and they also pro-Israel, but mixed with other nastiness…
If the Democratic party wants my vote all they have to do is put up a candidate who isn’t onboard with ethnic cleansing and genocide. If that’s too much to ask, and they lose to Republicans, they have no one to blame but themselves.
I agree. I’m in the same boat as you.
Trump supporter
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Whether by action or inaction, if your vote supports Trump getting elected, then you are a Trump supporter, a GOP supporter, and share a portion of the responsibility for the greater destruction and genocide that is brought about by that result.
So in fact, we all do get to blame you and others who support Trump.
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My dude, I’m here to actually have conversations, not use sophomoric quotes that are unrelated to what’s actually going on.
If you’re interested in engaging honestly, let’s do this. Otherwise…
Their statement was totally relevant to this situation. You may not like it, but it was an accurate observation of what centrists expect from progressives.
Their post was a complete non sequitur. And since they deleted their post and had half their other posts in this thread removed by the mods, they clearly weren’t here to have a discussion. It’s a weird thing for you to defend.
FPTP sucks though.
Love, A neighbour across the pond who also has a shitty FPTP system
Agree 100%.
I hate the system, and I genuinely sympathize with people who want to vote for their dream candidates.
I just wish they would open their eyes and understand how the system actually works, and how they are being duped by rich, powerful people into actively working against their own goals.
We can change the system by being active politically at the local level. But change will never come by voting in a dream candidate, because even if hypothetically someone like that won the presidency, they would simply be at the mercy of the legislature with zero support from either party. A third party president would be a lame duck before they even swore their inauguration oath.
Our entire government is broken, and nobody we elect will do enough to fix it before it collapses.
By your logic if you voted Hillary in the primary that makes you a trump supporter because your vote delivered him a candidate he can beat. You vote shamers are really reaching for insults this time around.
Sure, that tracks. You’d have a share of responsibility for the result of that choice. But as it’s much farther removed from the actual election, it would far less responsibility than someone who voted for Jill Stein, or who wrote-in Bernie Sanders, or anyone other than Hillary in the actual eleciton though.
The sad thing is you think I’m insulting you.
I’m not.
I’m trying very hard to help you understand that you’ve been fooled into acting against your own interests. There’s no reason to take it personally or try to come up with some sort of “gotcha” to throw back at me. Especially since I actually agree with what I guess you thought was some kind of slam dunk take-down.
In fact it’s extra tragic, because not only are you fooled so thoroughly, but you’re also getting defensive about it rather than just listening to what I and others are saying and examining the consequences of that choice. You should be here for conversation, not for meaningless grandstanding and digging your feet deeper into a misunderstanding.
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There’s nothing that leads me to believe that user supports Trump. This is an unhinged, unfounded accusation.
He sucks but the other option is even worse.
Still don’t get why you don’t have a third one (non-US guy here)
The presidential system is far, far more fragile than a parliamentary system.
If America didn’t have such an OP start point it would look like many of the Latin American countries it exported this model to.
It’s definitely leaning that way… Still, it’s been a while since someone had their ass beaten on the floor of the House or Senate, that seems to happen in Parliament more often. :)
https://youtube.com/shorts/H6qcAK-a1T0
Not sure if that level of opposition is more or less healthy than what we have here. :)
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/shorts/H6qcAK-a1T0
https://piped.video/Sm16htweOJQ
https://piped.video/kXmPDLRt6hA
https://piped.video/sUZM3KAibd4
https://piped.video/ZYaz6kmoLCQ
https://piped.video/8VP7JOdOGfU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
This is for Australia, but it applies to the US just as well. https://youtu.be/N3WTlyuhDs0?si=-xEDiCuN4bAeUWfa
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/N3WTlyuhDs0?si=-xEDiCuN4bAeUWfa
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Americans are stupid and easily manipulated.
It’s more that the third-party spoiler effect is inherent to the first past the post system, so voting your conscience (for a third party) is effectively the same as not voting, and if enough people vote their conscience, it’s effectively like voting for exactly the opposite of what you want.
Canada has a first past the post system and we have several parties. This is a uniquely American issue.
I suppose that’s because parliamentary parties are much stricter with their membership. A small difference of opinion could lead to the expulsion of a member. US parties can’t really do that, so instead we have caucuses within the parties that vote along party lines most of the time, but differently on some important issues. In a parliamentary system, the caucus members would be expelled and would have to form their own party to have their views represented.
Dont know why you’re being down voted. Just saying it as it is. People dont want to hear it but it doesn’t make it any less true.
Yeah, beyond that I was mostly responding to the assertion that “Americans are stupid and easily manipulated.”
No, they are responding to an imperfect system that punishes them for having strong morals. Far from stupid, it’s actually quite rational. The best thing you can do if you care about not having to choose between genocide and even more genocide is get involved in pushing ranked choice voting through ballot measures, lobbying your state legislature, or hell, start with just municipal elections if you think you can get that done.
Who are you voting now?
I’m not American and not the commentor, I’m observing from far away.
I agree, people should vote for the best possible candidate. Even single issue voters. The alternative is worse for this single issue. If I was American, I’d vote strategically like people on this thread are saying.
However
There are Americans that had friends, family members, and colleagues killed in this conflict, and they can’t stomach going to the polls and voting for Biden after how he’s acted throughout this conflict. I won’t hold it against those people for not voting.
I can’t even imagine what it would be like to have that happen and be told “go vote for him anyways”. As true as it might be, it’s not my place.
See SwampYankee’s post above for an explanation of why voting your conscience is (in bulk) the same as voting for the opposition you didn’t want.
You won’t topple the bi-partisan system with that mentality
Or do you think Milei was from one of the two mainstream parties?
I’m not concerned with toppling the bipartisan system right now. I’m simply hoping to grow old in a semblance of a democracy. I appreciate your idealism but it is misplaced. The foe (the Fascists) uses your idealism against you, gaining your cooperation along the way. You think you’re opting out because ‘they’re all so equally evil’ but in reality you end up supporting them through your failure to oppose them; the worst of them.
Regarding Milei, isn’t he right-wing and fascist more or less? I’m hoping to have less of that in the world, not more. God help you if you think someone like that is an improvement.
From this article;
“The vote represents a desperate attempt at something new, come what may,” said Benjamin Gedan, an Argentina specialist from the Wilson Centre. “The option [voters had] was more of the same in catastrophic economic conditions or a radical gamble on a potentially bright future with a lot of downside risk.”
Gedan believed there would be “a lot of buyer’s remorse in Argentina” if Milei pursued even a small fraction of his ideas. Those ideas include legalising the sale of human organs, dramatically slashing social spending, downplaying the crimes of Argentina’s 1976-83 dictatorship, and cutting ties with Argentina’s two most important trade partners, Brazil and China. On the campaign trail, Milei vowed to abolish Argentina’s central bank and dollarise the economy, and brandished a chainsaw intended to symbolise ferocious cuts he believes will help stabilise the economy and “exterminate” rampant inflation.
regarding Milei, isn’t he right wing and fascist?
“Fascism is when less state control”, plus my point is that he is the president while being third party, not the party itself
Also, how will you grow old in a democracy by voting the same two parties that don’t seem to represent anybody? How will a democracy truly exist when they fearmonger you into voting them “or literal Nazis will kill you tomorrow”? The republicans probably do the same but switching Nazi with any other word. It’s the game they want you to play, and they use fear to do so
I’ve got family and loved ones in detention camps and/or being deported under Biden. How can I vote for him again?
I was told he would be much better than Trump. He just hasn’t been. He’s even continued building Trump’s wall.
I feel like I got duped into voting for Biden last election. My expectations of him were abysmally low, but he has still managed to deeply disappoint.
The lesser of two fascisms?
So you already found out the two parties are literally the same? They just gather different voting bases, but the policies don’t change
I wouldn’t say they’re both the same, because Republicans are clearly worse, but it’s like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Ted Bundy
Uh, Abolishment of Roe v. Wade?! This happened as a result of Trump and the Republicans! The two parties both worship Mamon, that much is true, but there are important differences that should not be glossed over that will have an impact on the lives of everyday American citizens and all the people around the globe that are impacted by our politics which is a huge number of people. You’re painting with too broad a brush and I respectfully ask that you take a deep breath to clear some emotion and think about what I’m saying.
To say he hasn’t been better than trump is naive. Everything Biden has done that you hate will be done to a greater extent under trump. Remember this is the guy that moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
Just look at project 2025 to see the truly fascist intentions of trump and republicans at large. Neither are good but they aren’t close to being equally bad.
They’re still both extremely bad, though. Unacceptably so. Telling me my best option is to vote for the less bad genocidal maniac is not a good look.
I didn’t mean it as “you should vote for le bidet” but as “what third party are you voting for if at all?”
Not sure yet. Maybe a Green Party candidate or Cornel West. I’ve previously tried to vote for the lesser of two evils, but when this is what that entails, it’s not worth it.
What’s so hard to understand here? You are voting for trump
voting for anyone but trump is, by definition, not voting for trump
Unless of course, you’ve ever once looked at presidential election results in the United States and thought for 5 seconds
Let me paint you a picture:
I have one apple. I can give it to Joe, to Dobald, or to Claudia. I choose to give it to Claudia. So now our count is Joe +0, Donald +0, Claudia +1. You see how Donald’s number didn’t go up, despite not giving the apple to Joe? That’s how it works.
Now I know what you’re going to say: that since I’m not giving the apple to Joe, that really puts him at -1 apple, but the same could be said about Donald, that I’m not giving him the apple either so he would also be at -1. If you argue that not giving the apple to Joe is the same as giving it to Donald, surely that means the opposite is true as well, that not giving the apple to Donald is the same as giving it to Joe.
So maybe instead of blaming everyone but the Democrats for putting forward a candidate who is openly supporting and facilitating an active genocide if Joe loses next year, you start asking why they deserve your apple at all.
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I’ll blame the people I actually can talk to: the lesser minds who think voting third party has ever helped anyone ever. Spoiler, it hasn’t
If you think voting for a genocidal octogenarian ghoul is helping anyone you have no right to call anyone a “lesser mind.”
You’re voting for trump so any life advice from you should be considered a lesson in what never to do
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Trump supporter
So you’re actively going to help Trump commit even more genocide? Because in FPTP that’s all your 3rd party does whether you like it or not
so-called “third party” candidates are running AGAINST trump.
So if you vote for a “so-called third party candidate,” then we won’t get Trump? Please help clarify how this works.
if the so-called third party wins, then trump loses.
If a third-party candidate has an extremely unlikely chance to win, now what?
I hope people vote third parties no matter what kind they are, just to fuck the democrat-republican system
Enjoy a second Trump presidency!
It is not the fault of the voters that the democrats can’t put forward a candidate that makes someone who is generally likely to vote Democrat not want to throw up in their mouth. If Trump gets in again that falls squarely on the democrats and Biden for constantly doing abhorrent bullshit like this.
If a new SCOTUS decides that marriage historically and thus always must mean a relationship between a man and a woman, yeah, I’m gonna fucking blame the voters.
Alright well have fun trying to shame leftist voters into voting for your candidate they hate again. Worked so well with Hilary.
Trump supporter
It’s literally the fault of voters of Trump wins.
That is such a simplified and reductive view of the way democracy in the states works. This attitude towards your political system over the last few generations is why your country is even in this situation in the first place bud.
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Won’t enjoy it.
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Me? I’m a Brit. I loathe everything Trump stands for.
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If you read carefully, you’ll see my comment is a reply to a different user.
Trump supporter
Trump supporter is when I don’t like
trump is running as a republican.
Watch Cornell West become a Republican.
He’s held positions antithetical to most of conservatism for quite a long time. Still some things bother me. His religiousity, issues of his personal finances, etc. So I’m still quite undecided. I’ve got 10 months or so to decide.
It’s still worth it. Your political system is too fucked to protest vote.
Yes, please don’t be a single-issue voter. There is no perfection in politics, so don’t pretend that this is the only thing that matters and pursue to make your vote meaningless. A lost vote from you is a vote for them.
Okay I think it’s fine to be a single-issue voter if your single issue is genocide.
Please explain how trump would be anything but worse than Biden. I’ll wait
What policies worse than Biden did he make in his actual presidency? When will you realise nothing will change?
Re-posting a reply for a similar comment:
The opposite, actually. It’s a lesser of evils.
Personally, I believe that Trump would deliver significantly more harm than most candidates. He’s the Republican leader.
I don’t agree with a handful of things that Biden has done. I believe that the situation with Hamas and Israel is much more nuanced than “arm Israel to the teeth.” We’re on the same page with this.
I can decide that I don’t like Biden because of his stance with Israel, and choose to vote for another candidate. Let’s say that the election is extremely close between Biden and Trump. And let’s say that there is a reasonable amount of people like me, who have decided not to vote for Biden.
If enough people do what I would be doing, and vote for a candidate that might get 5% of votes or so, then that’s 5% of the vote that could have gone to defeating Trump. However, because the election was so close, Trump wins.
If you protest the majority candidate in the election, you might as well check the box for your opponent and submit your vote. Voting is a dumb game that shouldn’t be a dumb game, but it is what it is.
Yeah he is the lesser of two evils. I think we all know that. The idea is that some people would rather not take part in the farce known as American elections of the lesser of two evils is still going to support genocide.
One of the golden rules in life is you should act like you want everyone to act.
If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I know that’s easy for me to say because I have proportional representation, but I don’t think you should ever try to shame someone for voting with their conscience.
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If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I agree. However, this is not the reality we live in. If you vote for a candidate that gets 2% of votes, then they will lose, and the leading candidate that represents your party will not get your vote. This gives your political opponents an advantage by your choosing.
@Synthead what if 8 out of 10 of you want to vote for a third part candidate but you won’t in case they lose.
Honest voting might look like Candidate A = 2 votes, Candidate B = 6 votes, Candidate C = 13 votes
But status-quo voting gets you Candidate A =10 votes, candidat B = 11 votes, Candidate C = no votes
It’s a golden rule in life, but not in a two-party first-past-the-post political system. In that system, it’s a dogshit rule.
Except it isn’t.
“don’t vote for genocide” equals “don’t be a single issue voter” lmao. US is fucked, the lack of morality in the country is laid bare even to people who used to believe in the “good guys” rhetoric
I love this tagging feature. Makes it so much easier to spot time wasting trolls.
calling people names doesn’t undermine their position. you’re just telling on yourself.
Right, the voting system is bad. I don’t like it, either. However, if the dominating candidates are Biden and Trump, and you voted for lesser Democrat candidate, then Biden doesn’t get your vote. If Biden gets too little votes, then your next president is Trump. You wouldn’t have chosen it explicitly, but it is your implicit vote.
That being said, if Biden has some strong competition and another candidate is appearing favorable, then it makes sense to vote for them. Voting for someone you know is going to lose is just acting in principle without making any impact on the election.
You wouldn’t have chosen it explicitly, but it is your implicit vote.
there is no such thing as an implicit vote.
Maybe not this election, but if people start voting for third parties regardless, the Democrats would be incentivised to do better and/or to introduce ranked-choice voting.
In any case, people need to stop waiting for elections and to start taking action now.
So literally “vote for genocide”.
Every fucking presidential candidate will continue the US policies that have been in place for decades. That includes Jill Stein, Cornell West, anybody. They will all continue to supply arms to Israel, because no president is going to revolutionize the entire US political system.
You don’t stop genocide by hopes-and-dreams voting for an incompetent candidate who has no chance of winning, thus securing the presidency for the party that promises more genocide. That’s how you make the problem far, far worse.
You wanna stop genocide? Start with your Representatives and Senators and convince them to forbid the president from taking military action without a formal declaration of war.
“Incompetent” is a stretch. No chance of winning, perhaps, but that’s only true because the two major parties continue to work together to make it true. Colluding with a fledgling fascist dictator to lock out other competition and then smirking about “wasted votes” maybe be stabard operating procedure but it shouldn’t be.
Trump is a monster. Biden is not a good person. Let’s kick then both to the curb and agree to support someone who isn’t an objectively terrible person.
You think voting for the GOP isn’t voting for genocide? On top of handing Ukraine over and tearing out the rights of women minorities and LGBTQ. Consolidating power into the hands of Trump with the 2025 project is somehow “not voting for genocide?”
no one is saying they are going to vote for the gop.
Then how about not voting for genocide at all?
Lol seriously though. My jaw literally dropped reading the comment you just replied to. I’m so glad I don’t live in the states. That attitude is an absolute embarrassment to the rest of the world.
Trump by default. I mean, you might say Jill Stein when she emerges from her cave of irrelevance for her ten seconds of people remembering she exists, but really all you’re doing is getting out of the Grand Old Cult’s way.
