Fuck Israel
Throwing an Election (Any%)
He really didn’t need to say that
This is gonna do to Biden what COVID-19 did to Trump.
Biden will probably win some and lose some no matter what stance he takes on this issue. He might lose some pro-palestinian voters but gain some pro-israel moderates.
Still, I don’t think many pro-palestinian voters will move away from Democrats because there’s nowhere else to go except to not vote, which I guess some may choose.
“He might lose some pro-palestinian voters but gain some pro-israel moderates”
This is the main problem with the democratic party. They are always tryign to please the far-right, but they are unwilling to compromise with the far-left
The far right actually holds political power in the US while the far left does not.
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If you’re concerned about this, get out and vote in ALL local elections, tell your coworkers about local elections, inform them about mail in and absentee voting.
I vote from my kitchen table and get confirmation that my vote was counted. You could too, if it’s not currently accessible to you, complain about it, talk to local news about it. The GOP made the gains they did because of a disenfranchised and apathetic constituency.
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And all of that is a consequence of demonizing and extinguishing all the left-wing movements in the US. And the democratic party is complicit in that.
It certainly says something about the average american that they are more willing to tolerate a fascist than a socialist.
Being pro-Israel is not “far right” lol
Supporting apartheid is a far-right position.
Ironically, so is supporting the Hamas position that Israel shouldn’t exist.
To them “far right” just means “shit I don’t like.”
May as well call it the “neoliberal position” lol
Most importantly, this stance doesn’t piss off AIPAC. If you ever want the overarching position of the us govt on Israel to change, you need to do something about AIPAC. They hold enormous lobbying power and will put it behind your opponents if you don’t support Israel.
With young voter turnout already so low, and the way Gen Z is killing it with anti war TikToks… Its a fucking death knell. The youth need to turn out, and this type of rhetoric is not going to help do that.
No one who wants Trump will change their minds to Biden, there is no point in even trying for their votes. The youth vote, the Muslim vote, the African American vote are needed to win and nothing turns off those three groups like supporting the crushing of a powerless group by a larger technologically superior force supported by your tax dollars.
Honestly. At this point I’m tempted to vote Trump just to watch this whole corrupt system crumble. It has to end.
It’s not going to crumble, the fact that you think voting for him will do that, means you have fallen for propaganda, it’s going to stay pretty much the same, but just with worse civil liberties, and an emboldened fascist religious crowd, which funny enough are more docile to the government.
Everyone says that throughout history until the “fascist religious crowd” decides to embark on the newest interpretation of a crusade.
Hence the worst civil liberties
Oh, corruption is going to thrive under Trump. Did you not notice that last time around? Did you not notice the fake charities, the tax payer money funneled into Mar-a-Lago, the hundreds of millions going to Trump PACs, the money going to the Trump hotel in Washington DC, all the corruption and bribes and schemes?
And the fun thing is that now that Trump knows how to do all of this, how to funnel millions into his own pocket, a second Trump presidency is going to be corruption on steroids.
The only thing that’s going to crumble are democratic norms and human rights in the United States.
Crumbling to the far-right would not be an improvement. “Different but worse” should not be a desirable outcome.
@naturalgasbad @voidMainVoid @GiddyGap @aodhsishaj @mycatiskai @coldasblues
Unless you live on the West coast! Maybe we can join up with Canada to become the new superpower?
I’d rather you not vote for a platform that would likely make my existence as a trans person illegal. Thanks.
It will have 0 impact on the election and it’s silly that you think it will
nothing?
Okay, but the other guy said he’d be a dictator, so
Hehe yeah, obviously still have to vote for Biden, but why does he have to make it any harder right about now?
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Hmm, a zionist or the end of American democracy? Its just so hard.
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Listen, I dont want bombs falling anywhere. I don’t like what Israel is doing in Gaza at all. If I could I would summon the strength of Hercules and the wisdom of Solomon to put an end to this. But I can’t I’m a human. The most I can do right now is assist the nation with the most powerful military in the world with not electing a dictator. I can’t produce a miracle and make some unknown 3rd candidate win. And if you think Trump would be nicer to Palestinians, I got some news for you. What an incredibly disingenuous statement.
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Don’t pretend to give a shit about genocide and then start making a pitch for Trump as if he’d be calling for a ceasefire.
“There is no hatred like the Palestinian hatred of Israel and Jewish people. And probably the other way around also; I don’t know,” Trump said. “You know, it’s not as obvious, but probably that’s it too. So sometimes you have to let things play out and you have to see where it ends.”
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Do you see any other choices in this instance of our current election cycle? Do you see any other possible candidates that will continue to support Ukraine AND offer to pull support from Israel while also maintaining the possibility of an electoral victory? If you do see a US presidential candidate with these prerequisites please inform me immediately so that I may vote for them. Until then, Biden unfortunately holds my vote.
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Not a hard choice, but I don’t have to like it
Its bullshit, we deserve more choice and better choices. Unfortunately, the reality is its probably going to end in Biden v Trump. My choice is easy in that regard.
I’m fighting the whole notion inside myself. Is there any social environment we can build a clu…oh shit…I can’t talk about that.
Yea. This is repugnant, but I’m gonna hold my nose and vote Biden anyway.
Okay, we are officially the bad guys
oh finally. i was wondering when that would happen. thanks
The last 70 years of sponsoring fascist coups around the world in the interests of capitalists made US the bad guys.
Yes, but we can finally put the official Biden stamp on it.
I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
He’s been saying it for decades (literally), it’s only now that it garners so much attention. Look, I can find 100 reasons to dislike the guy but being consistent isn’t one of them.
80s documentation: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-12-28/ty-article/rare-1986-document-reveals-bidens-views-on-israel-and-saudi-arabia/0000017f-f2ca-d8a1-a5ff-f2ca769b0000
Did you mean to say “being inconsistent”?
I did not. The wording is based on how this matches his past statements. In this case, he’s being consistent and I can’t hate on that.
I can, however, hate the monetary support we’re sending there and dozens of other things.
Because old fucks in politics can’t keep their goddamn mouths shut about anything. Gotta pander, but unfortunately there a lot more cameras and microphones at everything they attend, unlike when they were my age.
Can we just pull the reset rope on government and replace all positions with people that represent the average demographic age that will actually see the future we’re building? I honestly do not care what some 80 year old thinks society should be like. When they were my age, black people were still not allowed in schools with them.
I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
Is it though? Americans do not really care about foreigners getting killed. A lot are actually in favor of Israel killing people and/or Muslims being killed in general. It’s not a given he will lose more votes than he will gain from ‘moderate’ Republicans. After all Democrat voters will be whipped into line with the ‘but Trump/lesser evil’ argument. This’ sub’s mod has smeared himself up in shit and is going hard at it.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
It does not mean wholehearted support for literally everything its government does, which Biden very much does not have. He and Netanyahu are not exactly friends.
That you and the other comment about this are massively downvoted despite being accurate really shows how Lemmy is changing.
I get it, they may not like what the truth stands for or that there’s nuance here, with POTUS recent words and actions setting a poor standard. The whole situation certainly sucks but so does the knee-jerk reactions on many of these threads.
And? You’re a mouth piece for the president?
A president of all people should understand what words mean given context (quite lacking in the U.S right now). It’s quite bold of you to give excuses on behalf of someone who says they are a zionist without even knowing if they were ignorant or deliberately trying to dogwhistle. You might come off as daft if you’re proven wrong.
And? They weren’t downvoting the president, they were pushing down legitimate information that was specifically asked for by a non-American. Historical even.
Not everything is a dog whistle and this isn’t even sly or hidden, he outright admits it and always has. Sheesh.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
I hate elections because it makes me feel even more like a weirdo, and that I have far, far less in common with my neighbors than I think.
Because saying you are a Zionist is simply to say that you believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist and be secure. It’s not saying that Israeli policy towards Palestian’s isn’t a inhumane cluster-fuck.
Thank you. The anti semitism on here is actually terrifying. Either there are a lot of people who don’t realize what they are saying, or they truly are anti semites just waiting to come out of the closet.
Luckily, they are not the majority in the real world. It seems to be highschool and university students who do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
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I beg your pardon, but I know a few “orthodox ones” (like women shaving their head and wearing a wig, no electricity, no money and no leaving your house and district at Saturdays etc) and they are nice people ; however I’ve met some who probably eat pork and they’ve been among the most unpleasant people I’ve met.
Also most of Europe consists of “ethno-states”, so let’s please drop that too.
I agree that Israel’s size and extent should be reduced, and they shouldn’t be allowed to police any population but their own.
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If you casually state you’d wish for a third diaspora, you’ll have to forgive me for thinking that you’re not, in fact, fine with Jews.
Being anti Zionist isn’t antisemitic.
Its absolutely not. Neither is suggesting (for example) that Israel is committing war crimes. But you can be extremeky critical of Israel and still think it has a right to exist, in line with long-stamding US foreign policy and the U.N efforts to find a two-state solution. Anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist, by the dictionary definition. And that includes Biden - and me.
The difficulty is that the term ‘Zionism’ comes wiith a lot of extremely unpleasant shit associated with it.
Nope but that’s exactly why they keep trying to make that a thing
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Opposing apartheid in any context is not antisemitic. Conflating criticism of oppression and occupation as condemning an entire religion is extremely obtuse. Surely you’re not that fucking dense.
I don’t know why you have to resort to insults. You’re the second person to insult me and I am not really sure why since I only said I’m concerned about anti sentism.
I also beleive Israel has the right to exist and be secure. This is not controversial. Most of the western world officially takes this position. If you want to insult me for that, then I guess go ahead.
I disagree that a religious ethno-state has a right to exist. I’m anti-zionist for the same reason I don’t like the regimes in charge in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
And that’s fine - that’s a morally consistent position, that I respect. My main point was to try and explain why Bidenmight have used those words.
Fucking cunt
That’s not fair.
Cunts have warmth and depth.
Hate on Biden all you want, but please vote for him. Trump is worse. Trump was behind moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. Trump instituted a ban on travel to the USA from some (note some) Muslim majority countries. If Trump gets elected, expect Project 2025 to come to fruition.
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just keep voting blue so they move left
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It sucks that the alternative is “or autocratic fascism” but sometimes that’s life.
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absolutely nobody is claiming that it’s the last election or that the next one will have a better democrat. you’re just making shit up
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trump, while being in office, will pull the overton window much further than you would by not voting
A fact the dems don’t seem to be concerned about. We have 2 right wing parties
the democrat party is right-wing. the Republican party is batshit fascist set on changing the rules, and they don’t fight fair
grass roots activism and talking shit on the internet the same as before
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yeah why would it be different? it’s the same situation. with the same people in it…
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you shouldn’t. i don’t know what your point is
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Same thing as every election: vote!
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I’m not sure what you’re alluding to. One party probably won’t win every election until the end of days, nor should it. However, votes are one way that we have a voice in government, and your government represents you less when your voice isn’t heard.
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democracy is just going to end sooner or later anyway
This is speculative, and a bad reason to not vote on purpose. The US has a flawed democracy, and it can get better. Voting won’t “fix” our government alone, but not voting is a guaranteed way to let others choose and vote for you.
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Trump is not the only republican option to vote on
All republican options would be worse than Biden. Biden sucks but republicans suck more.
I wasn’t aware Biden had won the nomination. I know the establishment is openly canceling elections, but vote Biden to save Democracy!
Trump is a Zionist too. He officially recognized Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. Anybody who thinks they will fix the Israel problem by not voting for Biden is sorely mistaken.
I doubt people think they can “fix the Israel problem by not voting for Biden”.
It’s more that they refuse to vote for an asshole.
I made a graphic about why this is important
In french, we call this “useful vote” and it sucks when it is a crucial strategy… but in a flawed electoral system it unfortunately is.
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You might find this Wikipedia page interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
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It shows where the US stands compared to other countries in a democracy index. But it sounds like you aren’t interested, so I’m sorry to have bothered you.
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Is he going to be alive by then?
stg democrats are trying so fucking hard to cause a schism party
You guys are so f*cking screwed 🤷
Please stop voting for these old fucks.
Being old isn’t the issue here
Cool story Joe. Lost my vote.
He sucks but the other option is even worse.
Still don’t get why you don’t have a third one (non-US guy here)
The presidential system is far, far more fragile than a parliamentary system.
If America didn’t have such an OP start point it would look like many of the Latin American countries it exported this model to.
It’s definitely leaning that way… Still, it’s been a while since someone had their ass beaten on the floor of the House or Senate, that seems to happen in Parliament more often. :)
https://youtube.com/shorts/H6qcAK-a1T0
Not sure if that level of opposition is more or less healthy than what we have here. :)
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/shorts/H6qcAK-a1T0
https://piped.video/Sm16htweOJQ
https://piped.video/kXmPDLRt6hA
https://piped.video/sUZM3KAibd4
https://piped.video/ZYaz6kmoLCQ
https://piped.video/8VP7JOdOGfU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
This is for Australia, but it applies to the US just as well. https://youtu.be/N3WTlyuhDs0?si=-xEDiCuN4bAeUWfa
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/N3WTlyuhDs0?si=-xEDiCuN4bAeUWfa
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Americans are stupid and easily manipulated.
It’s more that the third-party spoiler effect is inherent to the first past the post system, so voting your conscience (for a third party) is effectively the same as not voting, and if enough people vote their conscience, it’s effectively like voting for exactly the opposite of what you want.
Canada has a first past the post system and we have several parties. This is a uniquely American issue.
I suppose that’s because parliamentary parties are much stricter with their membership. A small difference of opinion could lead to the expulsion of a member. US parties can’t really do that, so instead we have caucuses within the parties that vote along party lines most of the time, but differently on some important issues. In a parliamentary system, the caucus members would be expelled and would have to form their own party to have their views represented.
Dont know why you’re being down voted. Just saying it as it is. People dont want to hear it but it doesn’t make it any less true.
Yeah, beyond that I was mostly responding to the assertion that “Americans are stupid and easily manipulated.”
No, they are responding to an imperfect system that punishes them for having strong morals. Far from stupid, it’s actually quite rational. The best thing you can do if you care about not having to choose between genocide and even more genocide is get involved in pushing ranked choice voting through ballot measures, lobbying your state legislature, or hell, start with just municipal elections if you think you can get that done.
Who are you voting now?
I’m not American and not the commentor, I’m observing from far away.
I agree, people should vote for the best possible candidate. Even single issue voters. The alternative is worse for this single issue. If I was American, I’d vote strategically like people on this thread are saying.
However
There are Americans that had friends, family members, and colleagues killed in this conflict, and they can’t stomach going to the polls and voting for Biden after how he’s acted throughout this conflict. I won’t hold it against those people for not voting.
I can’t even imagine what it would be like to have that happen and be told “go vote for him anyways”. As true as it might be, it’s not my place.
I didn’t mean it as “you should vote for le bidet” but as “what third party are you voting for if at all?”
See SwampYankee’s post above for an explanation of why voting your conscience is (in bulk) the same as voting for the opposition you didn’t want.
You won’t topple the bi-partisan system with that mentality
Or do you think Milei was from one of the two mainstream parties?
I’m not concerned with toppling the bipartisan system right now. I’m simply hoping to grow old in a semblance of a democracy. I appreciate your idealism but it is misplaced. The foe (the Fascists) uses your idealism against you, gaining your cooperation along the way. You think you’re opting out because ‘they’re all so equally evil’ but in reality you end up supporting them through your failure to oppose them; the worst of them.
Regarding Milei, isn’t he right-wing and fascist more or less? I’m hoping to have less of that in the world, not more. God help you if you think someone like that is an improvement.
From this article;
“The vote represents a desperate attempt at something new, come what may,” said Benjamin Gedan, an Argentina specialist from the Wilson Centre. “The option [voters had] was more of the same in catastrophic economic conditions or a radical gamble on a potentially bright future with a lot of downside risk.”
Gedan believed there would be “a lot of buyer’s remorse in Argentina” if Milei pursued even a small fraction of his ideas. Those ideas include legalising the sale of human organs, dramatically slashing social spending, downplaying the crimes of Argentina’s 1976-83 dictatorship, and cutting ties with Argentina’s two most important trade partners, Brazil and China. On the campaign trail, Milei vowed to abolish Argentina’s central bank and dollarise the economy, and brandished a chainsaw intended to symbolise ferocious cuts he believes will help stabilise the economy and “exterminate” rampant inflation.
regarding Milei, isn’t he right wing and fascist?
“Fascism is when less state control”, plus my point is that he is the president while being third party, not the party itself
Also, how will you grow old in a democracy by voting the same two parties that don’t seem to represent anybody? How will a democracy truly exist when they fearmonger you into voting them “or literal Nazis will kill you tomorrow”? The republicans probably do the same but switching Nazi with any other word. It’s the game they want you to play, and they use fear to do so
I’ve got family and loved ones in detention camps and/or being deported under Biden. How can I vote for him again?
I was told he would be much better than Trump. He just hasn’t been. He’s even continued building Trump’s wall.
I feel like I got duped into voting for Biden last election. My expectations of him were abysmally low, but he has still managed to deeply disappoint.
The lesser of two fascisms?
To say he hasn’t been better than trump is naive. Everything Biden has done that you hate will be done to a greater extent under trump. Remember this is the guy that moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
Just look at project 2025 to see the truly fascist intentions of trump and republicans at large. Neither are good but they aren’t close to being equally bad.
They’re still both extremely bad, though. Unacceptably so. Telling me my best option is to vote for the less bad genocidal maniac is not a good look.
So you already found out the two parties are literally the same? They just gather different voting bases, but the policies don’t change
Uh, Abolishment of Roe v. Wade?! This happened as a result of Trump and the Republicans! The two parties both worship Mamon, that much is true, but there are important differences that should not be glossed over that will have an impact on the lives of everyday American citizens and all the people around the globe that are impacted by our politics which is a huge number of people. You’re painting with too broad a brush and I respectfully ask that you take a deep breath to clear some emotion and think about what I’m saying.
I wouldn’t say they’re both the same, because Republicans are clearly worse, but it’s like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer to Ted Bundy
Trump by default. I mean, you might say Jill Stein when she emerges from her cave of irrelevance for her ten seconds of people remembering she exists, but really all you’re doing is getting out of the Grand Old Cult’s way.
Not sure yet. Maybe a Green Party candidate or Cornel West. I’ve previously tried to vote for the lesser of two evils, but when this is what that entails, it’s not worth it.
I hope people vote third parties no matter what kind they are, just to fuck the democrat-republican system
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Me? I’m a Brit. I loathe everything Trump stands for.
If you read carefully, you’ll see my comment is a reply to a different user.
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Trump supporter
Trump supporter is when I don’t like
trump is running as a republican.
Enjoy a second Trump presidency!
It is not the fault of the voters that the democrats can’t put forward a candidate that makes someone who is generally likely to vote Democrat not want to throw up in their mouth. If Trump gets in again that falls squarely on the democrats and Biden for constantly doing abhorrent bullshit like this.
It’s literally the fault of voters of Trump wins.
That is such a simplified and reductive view of the way democracy in the states works. This attitude towards your political system over the last few generations is why your country is even in this situation in the first place bud.
Trump supporter
If a new SCOTUS decides that marriage historically and thus always must mean a relationship between a man and a woman, yeah, I’m gonna fucking blame the voters.
Alright well have fun trying to shame leftist voters into voting for your candidate they hate again. Worked so well with Hilary.
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Won’t enjoy it.
Watch Cornell West become a Republican.
He’s held positions antithetical to most of conservatism for quite a long time. Still some things bother me. His religiousity, issues of his personal finances, etc. So I’m still quite undecided. I’ve got 10 months or so to decide.
It’s still worth it. Your political system is too fucked to protest vote.
Yes, please don’t be a single-issue voter. There is no perfection in politics, so don’t pretend that this is the only thing that matters and pursue to make your vote meaningless. A lost vote from you is a vote for them.
One of the golden rules in life is you should act like you want everyone to act.
If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I know that’s easy for me to say because I have proportional representation, but I don’t think you should ever try to shame someone for voting with their conscience.
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If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I agree. However, this is not the reality we live in. If you vote for a candidate that gets 2% of votes, then they will lose, and the leading candidate that represents your party will not get your vote. This gives your political opponents an advantage by your choosing.
@Synthead what if 8 out of 10 of you want to vote for a third part candidate but you won’t in case they lose.
Honest voting might look like Candidate A = 2 votes, Candidate B = 6 votes, Candidate C = 13 votes
But status-quo voting gets you Candidate A =10 votes, candidat B = 11 votes, Candidate C = no votes
It’s a golden rule in life, but not in a two-party first-past-the-post political system. In that system, it’s a dogshit rule.
Except it isn’t.
“don’t vote for genocide” equals “don’t be a single issue voter” lmao. US is fucked, the lack of morality in the country is laid bare even to people who used to believe in the “good guys” rhetoric
Every fucking presidential candidate will continue the US policies that have been in place for decades. That includes Jill Stein, Cornell West, anybody. They will all continue to supply arms to Israel, because no president is going to revolutionize the entire US political system.
You don’t stop genocide by hopes-and-dreams voting for an incompetent candidate who has no chance of winning, thus securing the presidency for the party that promises more genocide. That’s how you make the problem far, far worse.
You wanna stop genocide? Start with your Representatives and Senators and convince them to forbid the president from taking military action without a formal declaration of war.
“Incompetent” is a stretch. No chance of winning, perhaps, but that’s only true because the two major parties continue to work together to make it true. Colluding with a fledgling fascist dictator to lock out other competition and then smirking about “wasted votes” maybe be stabard operating procedure but it shouldn’t be.
Trump is a monster. Biden is not a good person. Let’s kick then both to the curb and agree to support someone who isn’t an objectively terrible person.
Right, the voting system is bad. I don’t like it, either. However, if the dominating candidates are Biden and Trump, and you voted for lesser Democrat candidate, then Biden doesn’t get your vote. If Biden gets too little votes, then your next president is Trump. You wouldn’t have chosen it explicitly, but it is your implicit vote.
That being said, if Biden has some strong competition and another candidate is appearing favorable, then it makes sense to vote for them. Voting for someone you know is going to lose is just acting in principle without making any impact on the election.
You wouldn’t have chosen it explicitly, but it is your implicit vote.
there is no such thing as an implicit vote.
So literally “vote for genocide”.
Maybe not this election, but if people start voting for third parties regardless, the Democrats would be incentivised to do better and/or to introduce ranked-choice voting.
In any case, people need to stop waiting for elections and to start taking action now.
Lol seriously though. My jaw literally dropped reading the comment you just replied to. I’m so glad I don’t live in the states. That attitude is an absolute embarrassment to the rest of the world.
You think voting for the GOP isn’t voting for genocide? On top of handing Ukraine over and tearing out the rights of women minorities and LGBTQ. Consolidating power into the hands of Trump with the 2025 project is somehow “not voting for genocide?”
Then how about not voting for genocide at all?
no one is saying they are going to vote for the gop.
I love this tagging feature. Makes it so much easier to spot time wasting trolls.
calling people names doesn’t undermine their position. you’re just telling on yourself.
Okay I think it’s fine to be a single-issue voter if your single issue is genocide.
Please explain how trump would be anything but worse than Biden. I’ll wait
What policies worse than Biden did he make in his actual presidency? When will you realise nothing will change?
Re-posting a reply for a similar comment:
The opposite, actually. It’s a lesser of evils.
Personally, I believe that Trump would deliver significantly more harm than most candidates. He’s the Republican leader.
I don’t agree with a handful of things that Biden has done. I believe that the situation with Hamas and Israel is much more nuanced than “arm Israel to the teeth.” We’re on the same page with this.
I can decide that I don’t like Biden because of his stance with Israel, and choose to vote for another candidate. Let’s say that the election is extremely close between Biden and Trump. And let’s say that there is a reasonable amount of people like me, who have decided not to vote for Biden.
If enough people do what I would be doing, and vote for a candidate that might get 5% of votes or so, then that’s 5% of the vote that could have gone to defeating Trump. However, because the election was so close, Trump wins.
If you protest the majority candidate in the election, you might as well check the box for your opponent and submit your vote. Voting is a dumb game that shouldn’t be a dumb game, but it is what it is.
Yeah he is the lesser of two evils. I think we all know that. The idea is that some people would rather not take part in the farce known as American elections of the lesser of two evils is still going to support genocide.
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So you’re actively going to help Trump commit even more genocide? Because in FPTP that’s all your 3rd party does whether you like it or not
so-called “third party” candidates are running AGAINST trump.
So if you vote for a “so-called third party candidate,” then we won’t get Trump? Please help clarify how this works.
if the so-called third party wins, then trump loses.
If a third-party candidate has an extremely unlikely chance to win, now what?
Trump supporter
What’s so hard to understand here? You are voting for trump
voting for anyone but trump is, by definition, not voting for trump
Unless of course, you’ve ever once looked at presidential election results in the United States and thought for 5 seconds
Let me paint you a picture:
I have one apple. I can give it to Joe, to Dobald, or to Claudia. I choose to give it to Claudia. So now our count is Joe +0, Donald +0, Claudia +1. You see how Donald’s number didn’t go up, despite not giving the apple to Joe? That’s how it works.
Now I know what you’re going to say: that since I’m not giving the apple to Joe, that really puts him at -1 apple, but the same could be said about Donald, that I’m not giving him the apple either so he would also be at -1. If you argue that not giving the apple to Joe is the same as giving it to Donald, surely that means the opposite is true as well, that not giving the apple to Donald is the same as giving it to Joe.
So maybe instead of blaming everyone but the Democrats for putting forward a candidate who is openly supporting and facilitating an active genocide if Joe loses next year, you start asking why they deserve your apple at all.
I’ll blame the people I actually can talk to: the lesser minds who think voting third party has ever helped anyone ever. Spoiler, it hasn’t
If you think voting for a genocidal octogenarian ghoul is helping anyone you have no right to call anyone a “lesser mind.”
You’re voting for trump so any life advice from you should be considered a lesson in what never to do
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There’s nothing that leads me to believe that user supports Trump. This is an unhinged, unfounded accusation.
The republican party thanks you, and they also pro-Israel, but mixed with other nastiness…
If the Democratic party wants my vote all they have to do is put up a candidate who isn’t onboard with ethnic cleansing and genocide. If that’s too much to ask, and they lose to Republicans, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Whether by action or inaction, if your vote supports Trump getting elected, then you are a Trump supporter, a GOP supporter, and share a portion of the responsibility for the greater destruction and genocide that is brought about by that result.
So in fact, we all do get to blame you and others who support Trump.
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My dude, I’m here to actually have conversations, not use sophomoric quotes that are unrelated to what’s actually going on.
If you’re interested in engaging honestly, let’s do this. Otherwise…
Their statement was totally relevant to this situation. You may not like it, but it was an accurate observation of what centrists expect from progressives.
Their post was a complete non sequitur. And since they deleted their post and had half their other posts in this thread removed by the mods, they clearly weren’t here to have a discussion. It’s a weird thing for you to defend.
FPTP sucks though.
Love, A neighbour across the pond who also has a shitty FPTP system
Agree 100%.
I hate the system, and I genuinely sympathize with people who want to vote for their dream candidates.
I just wish they would open their eyes and understand how the system actually works, and how they are being duped by rich, powerful people into actively working against their own goals.
We can change the system by being active politically at the local level. But change will never come by voting in a dream candidate, because even if hypothetically someone like that won the presidency, they would simply be at the mercy of the legislature with zero support from either party. A third party president would be a lame duck before they even swore their inauguration oath.
Our entire government is broken, and nobody we elect will do enough to fix it before it collapses.
By your logic if you voted Hillary in the primary that makes you a trump supporter because your vote delivered him a candidate he can beat. You vote shamers are really reaching for insults this time around.
Sure, that tracks. You’d have a share of responsibility for the result of that choice. But as it’s much farther removed from the actual election, it would far less responsibility than someone who voted for Jill Stein, or who wrote-in Bernie Sanders, or anyone other than Hillary in the actual eleciton though.
The sad thing is you think I’m insulting you.
I’m not.
I’m trying very hard to help you understand that you’ve been fooled into acting against your own interests. There’s no reason to take it personally or try to come up with some sort of “gotcha” to throw back at me. Especially since I actually agree with what I guess you thought was some kind of slam dunk take-down.
In fact it’s extra tragic, because not only are you fooled so thoroughly, but you’re also getting defensive about it rather than just listening to what I and others are saying and examining the consequences of that choice. You should be here for conversation, not for meaningless grandstanding and digging your feet deeper into a misunderstanding.
I agree. I’m in the same boat as you.
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Trump supporter
I don’t want to sound like I’m defending Biden, but I don’t know why people find this surprising. I’ve only been paying attention to politics for about 30 years, but he’s been saying this loudly and proudly for as long as I can remember.
Maybe people are just now noticing because it suddenly matters more than it used to. It definitely hits different when Israel is actively attempting a genocide, and it feels to me to be in pretty fucking terrible taste to beat that particular drum right now, but people are acting like this just came out of left field. He has been absolutely consistent about calling himself a Zionist for decades. It really shouldn’t have come as a shock.
Maybe people didn’t realize he’s a Catholic? Or thought that meant something other than implicit commitment to Zionism? Seems kind of hard to believe tbh
How does Catholicism lead to an implicit commitment to Zionism?
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Because belief in the biblical end of times requires it of those who believe in it.
The Catholic church are not the only christian church guilty of this, but they do believe it. The papacy did for a time reject it, politically, but that was a short lived period in the church.
Now, the most influential Catholic in the free world (maybe besides the Pope, if you’re a Catholic) is pro Zionism.
I have no idea what the dude is smoking. The Catholic church is explicitly against zionism. They wanted Jerusalem to be an international city.
Pope Pius X stated "We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem—but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different.
This was over a hundred years ago, and they’ve changed their tone significantly since then.
Here’s a good paper on the modern history of the Catholic church’s approach.
One thing I’ll grant is not all Catholics believe this. But then they also don’t really have an answer to dispensationalism. More on that here (this source is far from unbiased but the historicity is accurate).
I read through the paper and it really made the issue clear as mud.
Can you define what “this” is? Because the one thing I have learned is Zionism can mean something slightly different to catholics.
It doesn’t. It’s evangelicals which require Isreal for their doomsday prophecy
It’s not surprising, it’s just disgusting to see this decrepit piece of shit double down on loving genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Even if he personally has an ideological commitment to Zionism, he should be smart enough to not to say it out loud when it is clearly an issue that supposes a risk to his numbers.
Let’s go Brandon
I’m starting to call him Genocide Joe.
I mean, the guy was VP to Drone Strike Obama
Genocidin’ Biden
It fits well being sung to the G.I. Joe jingle.
Where did you come from, where did you go?
Meanwhile he’s cutting off Ukraine like some guy that’s letting his family starve to buy his mistress a diamond ring.
Sorry Zeloonsk, should have donated half the money we gave you to bribe our corrupt politicians.
Tell me you know literally nothing about how the American government works without telling me.
Surely you are pointing that accusation in the wrong direction - should be congress you are annoyed at
Biden found ways around congress for large parts of the Israel aid but hes letting a broken congress debate Ukraine aid.
If you were actually reading the news, you’d know that Biden has found creative ways to continue to aid Ukraine, and that has not stopped as of today. The US is still heavily backing the Ukrainian war effort.
Here is a recent example.
Congress is a coequal branch of government that controls spending. He’s not “letting” them do anything.
The U.S has a huge number of legal agreements, treaties etc with Israel that go back decades. I’m pretty sure that they give a sitting president a lot of room to play with that he doesn’t have with a relatively new arms deal like the Ukraine one.
Biden sure didn’t seem to need congress to remove all arms usage restrictions for israel so they can continue to commit genocide:
You’re sure the legislative scenarios and existing treaties between the US and Israel and Ukraine are entirely equivalent? - because I’m not.
Didn’t the US promise to protect Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal?
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082124528/ukraine-russia-putin-invasion
"Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.
Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.
In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine’s security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum."
Yeah. We know.
Guess I’m voting 3rd party next election.
Voting 3rd party is voting for Trump.
Then the U.S should stop fucking around
No, voting for Trump is voting for Trump. Blaming alternative parties for Trump splits the left.
The greatest support Trump could ever receive in 2024 are democrats running Biden.
But yeah, if Biden loses it will be the fault of progressives who didn’t fall in line, not the establishment for running awful candidates.
History continues to repeat itself. It’s always Progressive’s fault, never Democrats. Even when checks notes, Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump. Nobody blamed the moderates for nominating her. They all blamed the Progressives for not ‘falling in line.’
Were… were the moderates not going to fall in line behind Bernie? Hmm. Hopefully you can start to see what a crapshoot this all is and how you’re doing your part perpetuating it.
I’ll vote for democrats when they run candidates that represent me and the moderates can just ‘fall in line’ because they’re so afraid of republicans.
Bernie would have challenged the billionaire classes power and hoarding of wealth. The democrats knew he was a slam dunk against trump, but chose to risk losing the election in favor of protecting the status quo.
I totally agree.
This is the problem with American politics.
The lesser evil is still evil, yet good people want to convince themselves otherwise.
It’s all about avoiding conflict and maintaining a negative peace. Dr. King had a lot to say on it.
Fuck the moderate white.
Fuck the moderate white.
Especially since it’s a lie that they’re moderate. If you’re taking a global view, they’re actually right-wing. The moderate, centrist positions are what Bernie was advocating. The Overton Window in US politics has moved so far to the right it’s ridiculous.
In the two party American system its a choice between two devils. Right no thats looking like Biden vs Trump. Not choosing one of these devils is a vote for the devil you preferred even less. Its a shitty system sure but for now its what we have. Are these two devils really equally bad from your perspective?
The lesser evil is still evil.
If people supporting the lesser evil don’t want to end up with the greater evil, then they should run candidates who are good. Trump won the presidency because people nominated one of the worst candidates in history over someone who was legitimately a good option.
This isn’t that difficult. We don’t solve these problems because we don’t want to.
You can keep doing your part to perpetuate a system that caused George Washington to never speak to Thomas Jefferson again, but I’m done.
If you have a problem with me, tell everyone who supports the lesser-evil it’s their fault. As soon as they start supporting someone good, I will join them.
If they cannot do that, then that is a tacit admission that they would prefer to not have my support.
Wrong
Come on. Use your words.
History already did that. Others in this thread did too. Not wasting any more of my time with bad faith arguers
“Well, maybe the Democrats should have run good candidates if they wanted my vote!” - voter watching minorities herded into camps.
I’d say from the perspective of a Palestinian in Gaza or the perspective of a refugee in a concentration camp, yes.
It’s not even douche vs turd sandwich at this point. It’s a dead horse vs the biggest traitor to the US in modern history. It’s a single vote system. Both sides think this and somehow one actually believes the only possible vote is for the felon. Everything is broken and I’m not going to perpetuate it. I wish I could illegally immigrate to northern Europe and get free everything. Too bad I’m a highly educated US citizen which means I need a matching high skilled job, several years, and a couple hundred thousand euros.
When even the lesser of two evils is complicity in ethnic cleansing and genocide, then I think I’ll opt to vote for someone not evil instead.
It worked in 2016 too!
I voted for Clinton in 2016 as the lesser of two evils. She lost. Maybe the Democratic party should listen when voters are telling them their candidate is shit.
You honestly think that 4% of voters will convince anyone of anything? Surely you have historical precedent for holding such a belief?
Edit: interesting, I’ll take the downvote as an indication you have zero argument whatsoever besides naive PrInCiPlEs
Do what you need to do of course, but know it will backfire. If enough idealistic people like you refuse to vote for the Democrat then we are at risk of losing what democracy we have had for a much worse system. Remember, Trump was happy to put kids in cages.
The greater of the evils would happily seek to make me go round out my trans friends and kill them, then later seek to get my white friends to round me up and kill me after that’s done. I’m really happy you feel you have the luxury of moral superiority, but that doesn’t matter here at the endgame.
The lesser of two evils is currently arming, funding, giving military planning and operational guidance to, and vetoing UN resolutions for an apartheid state that has bombed thousands of women and children in the last two months. A state that has 2+ million people living in a squalid hellhole somewhere between a ghetto and a concentration camp. Where the majority of people are now displaced, lack food, and clean water. Where there are likely still thousands of bodies decaying under rubble all paid for with our tax dollars.
Worst case scenario I’ll end up in a mass grave here too. But I’m not going to actively vote for it to happen to someone else so that it won’t hypothetically maybe happen to me.
As I said, I am happy for your comfortable position (mental or otherwise) to be so noble. I can’t help change the world if I’m dead or in work camp, and honestly helping the marginalized in my community already takes all the effective energy I can muster. I guess since I can not hold all of the world’s sins at hand, I must defer to you and grab a shovel?
Dems and repubs will never change the laws to weaken their power and strengthen 3rd parties. Full stop. Waiting for it to happen is foolish. Abandon the evil.
If you vote 3rd party, it is absolutely a vote for trump. The reason this is said over and over is because history has born it out as 100% how it works. Stick your fucking head in the sand and be smug and self righteous all you want. Reality will remain intact
Okay.
Look, this is the system we have and it sucks, but the choices are “weak candidate” vs “evil candidate that is likely going to try to destroy our democracy.”
Voting third party means voting for the second guy, which is going to make our shit system even worse.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hey. Can I ask if you live in a swing state?
If not, then all these people are moralizing toward you for no reason.
I live right next to a swing state.
Personally, I’m all for democrats moving from states like Texas to states like Arkansas. I think ~2m people voted for Biden in the 2020 election.
The population of Arkansas is ~3m, to put things into perspective.
There are multiple states and territories for which the margin of victory for presidential elections has never been so slim that their state flipping would have ever effected the race. Its hilarious watching centerests get mad when something like less than 20% of the country has any material leverage on how it shakes out.
no we’re not. You’re both right. You’re right that you are absolutely allowed to not vote for someone if you don’t feel like that Person is representing you.
But just know that by not Voting for Biden, you are making it easier for Trump to win. This is just the way the System works. There is no Opinion to be had about this, this is just Fact.
Maybe instead of focusing all of our voting power on the presidential elections, we should all be more engaged with our local elections.
I 100% acknowledge and accept that.
My distinction is that the blame should be put on those voting for the ‘lesser-evil’ to maintain a negative peace instead of those fighting for a greater good.
Blame everyone who voted for, checks notes, Hillary fucking Clinton to guarantee a Trump presidency just so Bernie couldn’t fuck the ruling class.
It’s their fault, not ours.
The lesser evil is still evil. Good people aren’t bad for not going along with it.
Well spoken. A vote for Biden is a vote for Genocide.
Nah, it’s cool it’s cool. The election after this one will be a vote for Trump, because he’ll be the only one on the ballot.
