I dunno. It definitely will incentivize “otherising” of the Jewish diaspora. Which may be a tertiary objective of it. And it will definitely lead to increased conflict.
Which is a shame because most the Jews I know well enough to talk to about it, are extremely anti-genocide, and they’re vocal about it because… they know “I’m Jewish, [awkward stare]” is a great way to not get dinged for politics at work. (At least when the political topic is Gaza.)
You are absolutely right on that. It keeps many anti-genocide Jews silent. It kept me silent for a very long time. I didn’t even like talking about being Jewish. What changed my mind was a British documentary by a British comedian named David Baddiel called Jews Don’t Count (based on his book of the same name), which is specifically about the “othering” of Jews, especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white. It’s made me more vocal about things. I had already seen the documentary a few years before, but what has truly cemented it for me was the “you have said the actual truth” tweet by Elon Musk in response to someone who said Jews were oppressing white people.
It was streaming somewhere where non-Brits could see it (I think Dailymotion), but it doesn’t appear to be there anymore.
especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white.
There are people who are Jewish and non-white though - Ethiopian jews for example.
Which seems to negate the (Zionist-created) argument that there is such a thing as a Jewish ethnicity in the first place, as opposed to Judaism simply being a multi-ethnic faith like Christianity or Islam.
Clearly though plenty of people who are Jewish are also white. And clearly there is a history of denying them this Whiteness once their faith is “discovered” by those they know. Same as Irish or, to a lesser extent, Italians and Slavs. Which is wrong - as is the concept of race/ethnicity/“Whiteness” in the first place
The vast majority of Jews are white. Yes, there are a few exceptions like Beta Israel, or what you call Ethiopian Jews (less than 200,000 people) or Yemenite Jews (Around 400,000 people), but considering there are around 16 million Jews on the planet, around 11 million Ashkenazi and around 2 million Sephardic. I think “Jews are white” is, as a general rule, a correct statement whether or not someone like Elon Musk think otherwise. I mean there are non-white Icelanders, but I think most people would say that claiming Icelanders are white without specifying that that’s only a generality is acceptable as a statement.
But there’s a difference between saying most Icelanders are white and saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic.
Either ethnicity/race is a necessary component of belonging to a group, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t, then idk how one can claim that such a group is an ethnicity.
So long as human beings who are black, Arab, Asian, etc can be Jewish, then idk how we can say that Jews are an ethnicity
No one is saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic or Jewish. The point is that when Elon says “you have said the actual truth” to someone who claims Jews are oppressing white people, he isn’t thinking of Beta Israel or Yemenite Jews. He isn’t even thinking of Sephardic Jews. He is thinking of Ashkenazi Jews, who are white. He just doesn’t understand that. He very likely doesn’t even know non-white Jews exist… but the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.
the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.
Yeah I agree. But those people would be white regardless of if they were Jewish. Whiteness as a social construct is determined by skin color or national origin or both. Religion doesn’t have anything to do with it, although clearly through history it has - which catholics have also dealt with to some extent, especially in the WASP areas of the southern US.
But those people would be white regardless of if they were Jewish.
Except we aren’t. Many other white people don’t consider me white. I know that for a fact from personal experience. It doesn’t matter that I am genetically European and my skin is light.
And it is not just religion. I’m an atheist. That wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference to the SS or any of the people chanting, “Jews will not replace us” in Charlottesville or Elon “you have said the actual truth” Musk. I am a Jew regardless and, thus, not white.
By the way, this is also true of Roma people. They are (or can be anyway) in almost every way visually indistinguishable from the rest of the European population. It doesn’t matter, they’re not white anyway.
Yeah we’re saying the same thing. I recognize that there is a long history of denying Whiteness to people who have white skin. As I said, Irish, Italian, Slavic, and other catholic/orthodox peoples have been denied Whiteness at various points in history, in the US and elsewhere, in addition to people who are Jewish or Roma.
My point though is clearly the typical Irish person is white even if they are not seen as “White.” The typical Bosniak is white, even if they are not seen as “White.” And yes, clearly the typical Jewish person is white, even if they have not historically been seen as “White.” But that’s because really only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are reliably considered to be White in the United States - which is a 3-part conjunctive test, of which people who are Jewish only satisfy, at most, the first two parts.
The point is that Whiteness doesn’t even objectively exist, and is a socially constructed tool used to maintain the historical/current superstructure of Anglo Bourgeois hegemony in the West. So we should reject the classification of anyone as White rather than merely try to expand its definition to include historically oppressed peoples with white skin
Nevertheless, my point originally was that you don’t need white skin to be Jewish. And because there are Ethiopian and Polish and Arab jews, it seems difficult to believe that there could be a Jewish ethnicity like the Zionists claim. And it seems that claiming that Jews are a distinct ethnic group is itself highly othering - and that othering is the intentional goal not only of White supremacist bigots, but also, for different reasons, is the goal of Zionist ethnostates such as Israel
I dunno. It definitely will incentivize “otherising” of the Jewish diaspora. Which may be a tertiary objective of it. And it will definitely lead to increased conflict.
Which is a shame because most the Jews I know well enough to talk to about it, are extremely anti-genocide, and they’re vocal about it because… they know “I’m Jewish, [awkward stare]” is a great way to not get dinged for politics at work. (At least when the political topic is Gaza.)
You are absolutely right on that. It keeps many anti-genocide Jews silent. It kept me silent for a very long time. I didn’t even like talking about being Jewish. What changed my mind was a British documentary by a British comedian named David Baddiel called Jews Don’t Count (based on his book of the same name), which is specifically about the “othering” of Jews, especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white. It’s made me more vocal about things. I had already seen the documentary a few years before, but what has truly cemented it for me was the “you have said the actual truth” tweet by Elon Musk in response to someone who said Jews were oppressing white people.
It was streaming somewhere where non-Brits could see it (I think Dailymotion), but it doesn’t appear to be there anymore.
There are people who are Jewish and non-white though - Ethiopian jews for example.
Which seems to negate the (Zionist-created) argument that there is such a thing as a Jewish ethnicity in the first place, as opposed to Judaism simply being a multi-ethnic faith like Christianity or Islam.
Clearly though plenty of people who are Jewish are also white. And clearly there is a history of denying them this Whiteness once their faith is “discovered” by those they know. Same as Irish or, to a lesser extent, Italians and Slavs. Which is wrong - as is the concept of race/ethnicity/“Whiteness” in the first place
The vast majority of Jews are white. Yes, there are a few exceptions like Beta Israel, or what you call Ethiopian Jews (less than 200,000 people) or Yemenite Jews (Around 400,000 people), but considering there are around 16 million Jews on the planet, around 11 million Ashkenazi and around 2 million Sephardic. I think “Jews are white” is, as a general rule, a correct statement whether or not someone like Elon Musk think otherwise. I mean there are non-white Icelanders, but I think most people would say that claiming Icelanders are white without specifying that that’s only a generality is acceptable as a statement.
But there’s a difference between saying most Icelanders are white and saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic.
Either ethnicity/race is a necessary component of belonging to a group, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t, then idk how one can claim that such a group is an ethnicity.
So long as human beings who are black, Arab, Asian, etc can be Jewish, then idk how we can say that Jews are an ethnicity
No one is saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic or Jewish. The point is that when Elon says “you have said the actual truth” to someone who claims Jews are oppressing white people, he isn’t thinking of Beta Israel or Yemenite Jews. He isn’t even thinking of Sephardic Jews. He is thinking of Ashkenazi Jews, who are white. He just doesn’t understand that. He very likely doesn’t even know non-white Jews exist… but the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.
Yeah I agree. But those people would be white regardless of if they were Jewish. Whiteness as a social construct is determined by skin color or national origin or both. Religion doesn’t have anything to do with it, although clearly through history it has - which catholics have also dealt with to some extent, especially in the WASP areas of the southern US.
Except we aren’t. Many other white people don’t consider me white. I know that for a fact from personal experience. It doesn’t matter that I am genetically European and my skin is light.
And it is not just religion. I’m an atheist. That wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference to the SS or any of the people chanting, “Jews will not replace us” in Charlottesville or Elon “you have said the actual truth” Musk. I am a Jew regardless and, thus, not white.
By the way, this is also true of Roma people. They are (or can be anyway) in almost every way visually indistinguishable from the rest of the European population. It doesn’t matter, they’re not white anyway.
Yeah we’re saying the same thing. I recognize that there is a long history of denying Whiteness to people who have white skin. As I said, Irish, Italian, Slavic, and other catholic/orthodox peoples have been denied Whiteness at various points in history, in the US and elsewhere, in addition to people who are Jewish or Roma.
My point though is clearly the typical Irish person is white even if they are not seen as “White.” The typical Bosniak is white, even if they are not seen as “White.” And yes, clearly the typical Jewish person is white, even if they have not historically been seen as “White.” But that’s because really only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are reliably considered to be White in the United States - which is a 3-part conjunctive test, of which people who are Jewish only satisfy, at most, the first two parts.
The point is that Whiteness doesn’t even objectively exist, and is a socially constructed tool used to maintain the historical/current superstructure of Anglo Bourgeois hegemony in the West. So we should reject the classification of anyone as White rather than merely try to expand its definition to include historically oppressed peoples with white skin
Nevertheless, my point originally was that you don’t need white skin to be Jewish. And because there are Ethiopian and Polish and Arab jews, it seems difficult to believe that there could be a Jewish ethnicity like the Zionists claim. And it seems that claiming that Jews are a distinct ethnic group is itself highly othering - and that othering is the intentional goal not only of White supremacist bigots, but also, for different reasons, is the goal of Zionist ethnostates such as Israel