I thought treason was just an excuse for the winners to hang the losers.
It infuriates me that more people aren’t talking about how sexist it is that Ukraine only drafted its men. I can understand instituting a draft when your country is literally being invaded, but it should apply to all able-bodied citizens, not just men.
To what end? Just to get woman suffer as much as men in the name of equality? Winning the war is what matters. There are plenty of strategic reasons why you might not want to include woman in a draft. You still need civilians in regular jobs, you will need to population to grow after the war, and overall most military in the world are designed by men, for men, and are extremely missadapted for woman.
There is a point in the fact that men are biologically more suited to fight than women. Also no one is preventing a woman to join the military.
In the end it just sucks, no one should ever have to be drafted.
Bruh what’s wrong with this comment section
You should see the threads where the huxbear and lemmygrad users get going!
Lemmy.ml tankies gunna tankie
Tankies are what happens when kids start snorting totalitarianism at a young age. Heartbreaking!
On one hand, I absolutely agree with this. It’s human nature to want to avoid such a fate if one can reasonably avoid it. If I had the money and could buy my way out of participation in a fucking war…I’d hate to think that I wouldn’t.
I know it’s their home and things like that…but not everyone cares about those sorts of ties, and they become even less meaningful in death. I’m not saying I condone their actions, just that I understand.
I mean, I have some sympathy for the ones giving the bribes. No sympathy for the ones taking the bribes who are being charged.
For sure, that’s what I was commenting on. Can’t speak at all for the one’s accepting the bribes, knowing what it means for their fellow soldiers.
Trust me, you’ll find an official to bribe in such a situation in Eastern Europe. This is a PR move, to arrest some from time to time and show that in the news. Happens regularly.
Doesnt have to be Eastern Europe. Plenty of examples of rich people finding ways for their kids to avaoid the draft during Vietnam and WWII in the US.
It’s not about rich, it’s about rather middle class people somehow allocating a sum to bribe a military commissariat. See the article with 10k$ - it’s a lot in Ukraine, yes, but not what the size of such a bribe would be if only rich people would be doing that.
I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying it’s only fine to dodge the draft when rock people do it?
I’m saying that this is very common in Eastern Europe. It’s not something only rich people do. Not that it’s fine or not.
Covfefe?
Undercooked hamberder, can’t fight with diarrhea.
What? Don’t criticize. He had his own personal Vietnam!
Well, “I understand” doesn’t mean much here, now does it?!
I understand how many people who are unable to feel the pain of others, including the pain that they cause to others, such as Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Narcissists and so on will, if they think they can get away with it, not at all refrain from causing huge suffering to countless other people if they themselves come out of it better.
And it’s all irrelevant: whilst it’s psychologically easier for them to cause suffering to others (as they feel no guilt) as individuals with agency they’re still the ones who choose to or not-to cause suffering to others: if they act thus they should be punished, if they don’t they should not.
The only thing the “understanding” brings is putting such people higher up the list for surveillance and as suspect when it comes to detecting and punishing the harming of others than people who psychologically find it a lot harder act so because, unlike this group, they feel guilt.
I would definitely try to get out too. Either by bribes or just fleeing
Ultimately human conflict is meaningless and there’s a non zero chance that you’ll be immortal if you survive the next ten years.
Alt-righters calling Zelenskyy corrupt and so on all day long. Look how stressed his face looks. He’s aged like 30 years since the war started.
Zelensky didn’t want the job either but he packed up his actor clothes and has so far been putting on a damn fine leadership show. I can imagine plenty of wealthier families are trying to dodge. who wouldn’t…10k seems low for bargaining ones potential life. not that any of this or that in ukraine is good right now. I just hope zelensky’s soul isn’t so blackened that he turns this into a teaching moment rather than punishment.
Sure is.
accepting bribes is bad actually
being sent to war against your will is bad actually
I’m sorry but invasions are a justifiable reason to impose a draft.
No, you’re wrong. Conscription is always wrong. If fighting is justified you won’t need to do it.
If only reality worked that way
Cool so I can come in to your house and steal all your shit, beat up your children, and shoot your dog, and you aren’t allowed to fight back because if it was justified, you wouldn’t need to?
EDIT: I seem to have misinterpreted the comment, as you appear to be referring to conscription being unnecessary rather than the fighting. Taking the whole context of the comment supports that, but taking only the context of the final sentence makes it appear that you are saying “if fighting is justified you dont need to fight” rather than “if fighting is justified, conscription is unnecessary”
they mean ‘it’ as in conscription, thwyre saying if the fight was worth it you wouldnt need to conscript
Correct, thanks. I guess I could’ve phrased it better but it was worth it for that dudes completely unhinged reply.
Draft is slavery
In a situation where losing means you lose everything… It’s a small price to pay.
Sorry somepeople don`t want to do for a country. If you want to do die. go for It. I wouldnt
Apple is truck.
See? I can also spew nonsense.
War is death.
What do you suggest doing when your home is invaded by people who want to erase your culture?
Why would I give even the slightest shit about my “culture” being erased if a landmine turns half of my body into pink mist and I bleed out in the middle of a battlefield?
If you only care about your own life, there’s indeed no reason to.
Anyone else who doesn’t want to stay and fight should flee too. Land isn’t worth the blood of millions.
It’s not just land, land is intimately related to culture. Also millions moving to a neighbor country will generally create a political and humanitarian crisis, it’s not a magical solution with no negative consequences.
Could you expand more on your definition of culture? To me, culture relating to land has no inherent value (assuming you mean shrines, temples, etc) without those that recognize their value. For example, a culturally important place of worship has little to no value if most of the people who value it died trying to defend it.
There are no perfect solutions, of course.
One of the foundation of culture is transforming the land, starting from agriculture. The way the natural land was shaped by the people living on is a first marker of culture. Then comes the art and the buildings, in Europe we have a very dense network of historical remains spanning thousands of years, from cave paintings to modern art museums. If you have ever seen with your own eyes or touched with your own hands a famous remain of your place, you know the emotion is not quite the same as seeing it on the internet. It creates a feeling of belonging to a line of people who have created things bigger than them, and you reach a better understanding of how everything that allows your life today was progressively developed. It makes you want to protect this inheritance for others to access the same knowledge and emotions, and it may motivate you to produce something that could reach a similar value.
Land inspire artists and creators in general. The most evident example is how Mount Fuji inspired the creation of an insane quantity of art in Japan, such as the Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji by Hokusai. The famous Great Wave off Kanagawa from this series, which is actually about the Mount Fuji, had a massive impact on the world culture.
Similarly, post-impressionist painter Paul Cézanne painted multiple views of mount Sainte-Victoire https://drawpaintacademy.com/mont-sainte-victoire/
The end of 19th century classical guitar piece Recuerdos de la Alhambra written by Spanish composer Francisco Tárrega is an interesting example. It was inspired by the Alhambra palace in Spain, which was built during the 13th century by the Emirates who conquered Spain during the previous centuries. Nonetheless, it became part of the Spanish culture and inspired new art pieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjX-m4LkYkTo get back to the mountains, but with a historical scientific experiment this time (science is part of culture). Blaise Pascal did a historical experiment in 1648 at the Puy-de-Dôme (volcanic mountain in the middle of France) in order to test the “weight of air” that later led to the understanding of atmospheric pressure (immortalized by the Pascal unit of measurement). This would not have been possible in Holland (because it’s flat). https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/11/blaise-pascal-florin-p-and-puy-de-d.html
There are countless examples of how ancient Greece and Rome inspired arts and architecture at different centuries: 16th century St. Peter’s basilica, 17th century Versailles palace or Neoclassicism art in the 18th and 19th centuries.
There are many other examples about rivers, lakes, seas, cities etc…
That is to say, the land and how it is transformed and built are major sources of culture. If you take the same people but magically modify their history, so they lived on a different land, you will have a different culture. Probably not worse nor better, but different, because the land inspires the culture.
If your people are not living on its history soaked land anymore, you lose those major culture nutriments. I’m not saying people cannot carry part of their culture with them, nor that culture cannot reinvent itself and be inspired by different origins, but you have more chances to dilute or lose culturally important works of the past if they are not set in stone. Stones that you can access.
It may even get physically destroyed and erased, like what ISIL terrorists did of the ancient temples in Iraq and Syria. To be fair, it also happens from “democratic” movements, such as how the French Revolution destroyed many pieces of arts because it represented the Nobility and the Church. https://www.nytimes.com/1977/05/04/archives/notre-dame-statuary-lost-in-1793-unearthed-in-paris.html
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/04/12/video-islamic-state-nimrud/25667399/Given that Putin negates Ukrainian’s history and culture as a justification to invade it, we can expect that he would continue on his pathway of destruction to erase any reminder of it.
https://theconversation.com/we-should-all-be-concerned-that-putin-is-trying-to-destroy-ukrainian-culture-179351So that’s a couple of elements that came to my mind about why defending your land is important for your culture.
Encouraging people to enlist, not forcing them.
Of course, it would be best if they did it willingly. But if they don’t, you just accept being invaded and erased?
The only reason they can invade another country to begin with is because they are drafting people to do it.
Russian drafts happened after the invasion, especially when they encountered unexpected resistance from the Ukrainian.
I would rather do that instead of indirectly killing a bunch of unwilling people, yeah.
Even if you think that the invader will kill and destroy more than you would by preventing its invasion?
It’s also the home of people being drafted (even more so than for political elite of the country). If some of them want to get the fuck out (yes, from their home) then those thay have elected shouldn’t have the right to force them to stay and die.
I think that when you grow up and live in a society, you owe many parts of your life to it, to the people who educated you, taught you, protected you or served you, but also the people who came before and made it possible for all those previous people to be there for you.
Therefore, you have a moral responsibility to defend that.^^ found Zelensky’s lemmy account
I’m not from Ukraine.
Yeah, we have the moral responsibility to defend our corrupted politicians and billionares who brought humanity to the brink of extinction. This system must be saved at all cost
Do you think what Putin wants to bring to Ukrain is any better? It’s what you describe multiplied by a thousand. So yes, we have the moral responsability to resist against the worse even if the current is not great.
It’s a little more complicated than that (and the original post is a ridiculous oversimplifications with the intellectual level of a 5-year-old, if that much).
It’s down to how much do each of us owe to the Society we grew up in and the Society we live in (if not the same) and thus how much do we have a moral duty to pay it back when called upon it to protect said Society.
Different people will decide differently on those things and thus determine in their own minds what they think their “duty” is.
Then of course, on top of this there’s also the whole “protecting my family”, “fight alonside my friends”, plain old “warrior spirit” and such motivations on one side, as well as “having to stay to work to feed my family” and such on the other, but that’s not really to do with “duty” and “moral”.
In this specific case there is also the HUGE moral element that they’re paying to avoid the draft, and those doing so actually have money, so they’re likelly bigger beneficiaries from Society than those who can’t afford to make such payments, which brings in a massive element of injustice (one might make the case that the richer the person the more they have a duty towards the Society that made the and kept them thus).
Ultimatelly the draft itself should include some elements to make it fairer (and it does, up to a point, thinks like not drafting poor people with lots of kids - who need to earn a living for their family - or people who don’t have the local citizenship - who likely owe much less to local society than the locals) but in this specific case it absolutelly make sense to throw the book at those who are local citizens who have more money than most and yet use it to evade a duty to Society which is likely higher than that of most other people.
So society owes us nothing, but we owe society our lives? Why? I’m not sure I agree with that. I would risk my life protecting myself and my loved ones, but asking me to protect strangers and to die for them is a tall ask IMO.
That’s not at all what I said.
That you can read and write, have Internet and are alive past (I assume) the ripe old age of 20, is because of Society: anything that you cannot do with your own hands only exists because people have organises to achieve more than single individuals can by themselves and to protect what they achieved from other individuals that would take it by force.
If you want a (even partially so) place where people have little or no duty to Society, I suggest you move to a place like Somalia, though I expect that if you take such an extreme “I have no duty to the group” take as you wrote here you would be dead pretty quickly: even in a place like that which is pretty much an Anarchy when it comes to the power of the State, people still group up in large groups with a mutual duty of protection (a Society, only broken up into things like tribes), funnilly enough the very mutual duty of protection you want to evade in the “tribe” you are part of all the while enjoying all the benefits only made possible by the very thing you don’t want to protect.
Even cavemen had Societies, just very small and called tribes, only back then those who didn’t want to contribute to the defense of the group were pushed out and generally died.
Society is the return for contributing.
Those people happily enjoyed the benefits of their society, and now try to get around the contribution part - by spending money they got trough their position in this very society.
Everyone is free to dislike this deal, but then you should find yourself a country which doesn’t have a draft. It’s as simple as that. But they didn’t. They lived in their comfort zone and now try to get around the rules.
Last, this discussion should be about the officials who took the bribes.
Lives are not property of the State.
Ukrainian should defend itself by violence. But human beings are not tools or weapons.
Indeed
I mean, to be fair, slavery is slavery whether there’s a “good reason” or not
You generally don’t get paid for being a slave, nor recover your freedom after the crisis has passed.
Forced labour and servitude generally fall under the umbrella of slavery, according to the USIDHR at least
Nor will you if you’re dead.
Recover your freedom? So you’re not free and are forced to work? Sounds like textbook slavery, to me. Indentured servitude is still slavery
You are forced to go to school, you are forced to work to earn your life. Are those slavery too?
Wage slavery is a very real concept.
Anyway, when do you ship out to Ukraine, soldier? Your comments in this thread make it sound like you’re happy to go to war to help defend them against an invading force. After all, you’re in support of other people being forced to fight so shouldn’t you be joining them?
The really first thing you want to do is to try to be better than them
Better than the invaders? I agree with the general statement, but when you’re in the line of sight of an automatic rifle, they’re not going to be impressed by your ethics.
It reminds me of Gandhi, who recommended his Jewish friends who were facing Nazism to just peacefully protest and wrote a nice letter to Hitler in 1939 to politely ask him to reconsider going to war. 6 million Jews were assassinated nonetheless.
https://apnews.com/general-news-f40d8c2c7d8d4ffeadd576ded89acc0c
https://time.com/5685122/gandhi-hitler-letter/I’m all for giving the good example and building peaceful relations, but when you’re faced with extremists who immediately endanger your life, you have to defend yourself first. It’s like a violent aggression in the street, you have to defend yourself against the immediate aggression first, to protect your body, your life and maybe your relatives’, before you can find a more civilized alternative like deescalating or getting help from the police.
You are mixing up bullshit. In order to defend themself one of the best thing ukrainian people can do is to ditch their own government who is drafting them to a meat slaughter over invisible lines on the map. Does this mean they have to stop fighting another authoritarian government trying to impose their laws and drafting on them? Nope, people exists with or without a flag on top of their head and a bunch of politicians ruling on them.
Ah yes, I’m sure the new laissez faire Ukrainian army will be able to stand up to a united Russian military machine!
No military can stand up to angry people
There’s quite a history of military rolling over angry civilians.
Deconstruction is not an argument.
Lol your house is just a collection of bricks what do you mean I cant live there?
Lmaoo money is literally just numbers why do you give a shit if I take a few numbers from you?
Fighting for your country is always a good thing. Its your country, your land and your people and they deserve to be protected.
Fighting for your country is always a good thing. Its your country, your land and your people and they deserve to be protected.
Russia propaganda.
Drafting is there to protect the state and its government at the expenses of people.
Russian propaganda.
Projection + fixed the grammar for you Vlad
Drafting is used in Ukraine to protect the people from invasive forces. The ONLY way to peace in Ukraine is through superior firepower, nothing less.
Please continue dodging the arguments I make though.
Zelensky fires recruitment official for not giving him a cut. I think that’s the true story.
Add another obvious troll to the ban pile
found the tankie
Yes, Zelensky. The guy known for living in the lap of luxury? 🙄
The guy that was offered by the US to be extracted at the start of the war, but instead chose remain in the war with his people, that guy? He’s looking for bribes??
The amount of stupid you have to be, to post something this brainless boggles the mind.
Another user that is less than 24 hours old spewing Russian propaganda bullet-points? Shocking!
said the 2 month old tourist
You thinking something up doesn’t make it true (or smart).
I’m hoping it was a joke that everyone missed
You really live in your own reality huh?
If it’s a crime, do not fire them, lock them up in pris-
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called the actions “treason” and has initiated criminal proceedings.
Oh. Oh well.
Also, one of the main reasons the Russian army has been underperforming is corruption. Loads of money siphoned, incompetent people getting positions, you name it. Zelenskyy is also making sure the same doesn’t happen in his country and stays on top performance/efficiency wise.
Zelenskyy will go down in history with the likes of all great leaders. The man has risen to legendary status. Once this war is won and Ukraine is free, I hope he gets that much deserved beer and beach vacation.
Slava Ukraina
I think it’s far more likely that, over time, we find out he was pocketing a huge chunk of the wartime aid we US taxpayers are graciously going into further debt in order to fund, like Hamid Karzai and Saddam Hussein, themselves once also darlings of the US war machine.
Ah yes because the money we give them is definitely more than a tiny drop in the lake which is the US military spending.
The key words there are ‘US military spending’.
Canada spends approximately 26 billion a year on their national defense.
The US spends over a trillion, and Congress has approved around 113 billion for Ukraine. That is, by any measure, not a drop in the bucket. It’s unreasonable to argue that all 50 states wouldn’t benefit more from having those funds distributed at the state level. Hawaii in particular comes to mind right now.
Arguably out of all the times pepole should complain about us military spending this is probably the worst .war in ukraine is probably one of the most just conflicts america was invloved in since probably the korean war or perhaps even WW2 . Its pretty rare to have a situation where you can say one side is the bad guy with such a certainity.And its not like they are sending troops or anything.just equipment and ammo ,more often that not american made, which means most of those dollars stays in USA either way.
Alghtough the fact that the usual US military budget is overblown is also true.
I can only agree with every single word, but I think he should go the Churchill way, and just find some peaceful and relaxing job once the whole thing is over (I know, Churchill actually stayed around for a while). For one: because he will definitely deserve it; but for two: looking at history (not excluding my own country’s), too many great politicians have fallen into the “…or you live long enough to become the villain” category. I’m rooting hard for Zelenskyy to at least get a draw and not go mad later.
He has said a few times that after the war he’ll retire from politics.
Considering his abysmal approval rating before the war and his huge popularity during it, I think he’ll take the “amazing wartime president” label and happily walk away afterwards.
If history has shown us anything, the politicians you need in wartime and peacetime need very different skillsets.
I love that the guy now being a hardass leader saving his country from a powerful invading force is there because he got famous playing the piano with his penis. What a career path! (Also, watch that video because it’s really funny.)
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=6Up6HoEvqls
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
After 2014 they took some notes that ex-soviet army is garbage. One needs a lot of changes to make it reliable and efficient. Lots of ukrainian fighters would tell you that as well (like хрюнчик from reddit), it’s just so happens that they took it a little more serious this time and also trained with NATO troops. But the whole beaurocracy, man, it needs to be flushed like a turd. I have a distant knowledge of how it is in Ukraine, but I’m pretty sure that up to 2014 or even further they had everything on paper, no central digital database of draftees, this eased the bribing and fixing papers. Zee’s office would have a fun time cleaning this shit.
the draft is the real crime
100%
But the chickenhawks here in the US have always been content watching other people march off to war.
What’s the alternative?
No no you’ve got that all wrong. It’s not a crime if it’s to support “democracy.” /s
A real crime here is the draft. And before the tankies start circling this post, it applies to russia as well.
a brilliant attempt to bothsides this invasion situation right here
Their needs to be a term when people use the “both sides” argument in bad faith to try and deflect legitimate criticism. I guess it kind of falls under whattaboutism ironically enough "nevermind the bad things Ukraine is doing, whattabout the bad things Russia is doing?
No. The invading side is clearly worse. If it weren’t for the invading army, there would be no war.
Forcing people to risk their lives for a piece of dirt is still evil though.
Regular draft is unacceptable. But this is not a regular draft.
You won’t find a single country on this planet that wouldn’t draft their citizens in a wartime situation while you’re running out of soldiers. Not a single one.
And it would still be fucked up in every single one of those countries.
deleted by creator
BATTLE-POPE, INITIATE COMBAT SEQUENCE.
Don’t rest assured, for most of his history the vatican was a kingdom with his own army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_Papal_States
deleted by creator
They changed their name
Now, Facebook was evil, but Facebook was different. The Meta Platforms, Inc., as it exists today, was only established in 2021.
deleted by creator
I don’t know shit about The Vatican, the pope, their history, or their dumbass religion (obviously, and on purpose!). Thanks for taking the time to respond to give me some insight. However, your comment reads to the layman like , “They changed their name and are way better now,” and it’ll read that way to almost anybody without your extensive knowledge of useless things.
that’s because the Vatican already drafts them to keep their heads in 1600, therefore they don’t know what modern warfare is
You won’t also find a single country on this planet that isn’t rooted on violence and that isn’t ruled by corrupted politicians
True, but it’s a spectrum, some countries are much more violent and corrupt than others. Arguably Russia ranks #1 in corruption, violence, and terrorism.
Russia’s troll farms out here complaining about every other country, when they are globally causing the most problems.
Objection. I would argue that Saudi Arabia ranks #1 in corruption, violence and terrorism and since we are at it i would also want to point out that the west is a partner of SA and sell them plenty of weapons.
Russia’s troll farms out here complaining about every other country, when they are globally causing the most problems.
Is Russia the country that spends more money on psyops and propaganda?
Arguing who’s less of a criminal or less of a dictator sounds like hitting the bottom of the barrel anyway and it’s exactly the game these warlords want people to play.
Saudi Arabia is far up there, but Russia is still objectively worse.
The Russia simps like to “whataboutism” pretty much everyone else for doing smaller crimes than Russia. It’s cliche, it’s low IQ, Russia exports troll farms and nuclear terrorism, we get it.
And that doesn’t make it a single bit better. Not a single one.
Costa Rica doesn’t have an army
I usually dislike picking hairs of evil when the alternative solution was getting annexed back into a cultural meat grinder
If your country is being invaded, you don’t have a choice. War is a savage and cruel phenoma. It turns people into animals. What an invading side can do to civilians under occupation is beyond comprehension. The Nanking Massacre comes to mind in modern memory.
You may regard yourself as a pacifist and in the moral high ground, the women and children who get systematically raped and mutilated through no fault other than being a trophy for monsters to use, would think of you in another view.
I know I’m being brutal with my words, but the real fucking crime is the fucking invasion. Zelensky has to do everything to defend it’s existence.
Your argument comes down to “sacrices need to be made for the greater good”, right?
So, for a hypothetical, if Putin, for some insane reason, offered to leave Ukraine, respect historic border and even pay to rebuild, as long as Zelensky drowned a child with his own hands, would that be worth it? If it is, then what a bout 10 children? 1,000? 100,000? Where’s the line you draw of how much of a sacrifice you can make? If Zelensky ordered his men to charge the Russian line unarmed as a distraction for another force, would that be a necessary sacrifice to defend Ukraine, or would it be a crime against humanity?
Or even for a less extreme example, the same as above, but Ukraine must agree to outlaw LGBT people and take aways women rights to vote. Would that be worth it or would compromising morals in that regard be too much?
Lives are not property if the State.
Ukraine should be defended by well armed volunteers, or it should die.
So you think Ukrainians being genocided is preferable to Ukrainians being drafted?
Really weird take there.
Each person is a person who should have a right to decide the use and value of their own life.
“Ukrainians” aren’t a resource to be allocated for the greatest good.
Downvotes for a comment pointing out that forcing people to fight and die is fucked up? Okay, people…
Calling it a crime is fucked up. Especially in a thread where actual crime (taking bribes) is discussed.
You can’t seriously be equating the moral shortcomings of taking a bribe to the complete immorality of imposing a draft on others and forcing them to march towards near certain death
I definitely can. It would be a completely different topic in russia where they draft people to sustain occupation. If Ukraine stopped defending now, you’d have Buchas and Mariupols all over Ukraine with many dead. So I don’t really see it as immoral as much as it sucks for everyone involved.
Compared to that, taking bribes from desperate people is next level fucked up and it’s effectively profiteering on genocide.
A lot of keyboard warriors that like to belive they would gladly fight and die for the glory of their country if the time came, but are so far removed from the realities of war, that when they think of war they think of movies and video games, not watching your freinds get blown into chunks by an artillery shell or rocket while you’re making an MRE in your trench.
Dude, Ukraine was invaded. The last time the US has had to use a draft for circumstances like this was the Civil War, and everyone now thinks it was warranted then.
There were drafts for the Vietnam shitshow as well.
I think people generally agree that the drafts for the Vietnam war were not justified.
Drafts are never justified, you don’t own anyone else life
And they don’t owe you anything either.
So it would be only fair if Society does not provide any services whatsoever to draft dogers so: citizenship revoked, no ownership of anything they cannot hold and defend themselves, if they’re victims of a crime “though luck”, no firemen, no use of communal spaces including roads, no public Schools, no emergency medical care and even no indirect benefits like FDIC insurance on their bank deposits and many others.
If you have no duty to Society then Society has no duty to you, aka you’re a Pariah, worse than that even, as anybody can kill you anytime they feel like it since Society does not even has that duty to you - if you have no duty towards everybody else then they have no duty to enforce “rights” for you: it’s only fair since “rights” only exists because Society has agreed to them and enforces them so those who don’t agree with contributing to that agree to have no rights (and, as I said above, that also means the Right To Live and the Right To Ownership as well as any Citizenship Rights).
Strangelly, the crowd claiming they want Freedom only seems to want Freedom of their duties never Freedom from all those “Rights” than everybody else as a Society is making sure they have.
If it were possible to live somewhere without government interference, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Yeah, well, you’re slowly getting to my point: if you want to live amongst other people you have to abide by common rules since your Freedom ends were other people’s Freedom starts.
(Which is how we ended up with the complex beast which is the Nation State, with all its imperfections)
Absolutelly, some people would love to trully be free in the genuine sense of the word and there really aren’t that many places on Earth were that is possible (they were born in the wrong Age, IMHO), but most people seem to want Freedom AND all the upsides of Human Civilization both at the same time, in other words, Rights without Duties.
Let me know where you sign up to renounce to public services and stop paying taxes
The last time the US has had to use a draft for circumstances like this was the Civil War
Didn’t teach history in your school?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
You missed the “for circumstances like this” part. There were certainly other uses of the draft for other circumstances that are looked at poorly.
WWI and WWII didn’t have a direct US invasion, and we’re also looked at positively, but is out of the scope of the discussion.
