An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
Hamas said it had taken “dozens” of Israeli soldiers hostage and moved them to the Gaza Strip as footage emerged appearing to show gunmen in military fatigues leading a group of mostly barefoot women down a street in Israel.
The announcement and video verified by NBC News came hours after Hamas launched a deadly land, air and sea attack and fired a huge barrage of rockets at Israel.
None of these organized people are worth a penny, both governments, all the terrorist groups, they’re all scum, and the people suffer on both sides endlessly because of them.
Fuck Hamaz! The only thing that they’re good at is misrepresenting all Palestinians as terrorists.
They have done incredible damage to Palestinians with this attack.
It’s probably not even Hamas if we’re being honest, Iran probably just paid a Hamas branch to take credit while most of the people on the ground aren’t Palestinian but rather generic Islamic mercs.
I think that in the face of an overwhelming enemy the rational thing is not to fight to the last man but to find another solution. So it’s hard to understand how palestinians would get any long term benefit. It’s quite the opposite. I think they are being used as pawns by other nations.
They probably aren’t palistinia, hell their numbers alone suggest they aren’t because Palestine is severely lacking in men of fighting age because of Israeli policies and outright murders.
Is this where we’re shocked about the Hamas fascist regime doing fascist things? Does the leftists that pretend Hamas isn’t fascist rationalize out how they are justified to do this because of “blood and soil”? Probably need to obfuscate the “blood and soil” thing to convince themselves they aren’t supporting fascism.
Odd how the actions of fascists are acceptable to leftists if the fascists are of a different religion and ethnicity from themselves.
Shall we continue with the narrative that providing military hardware to Israel to defend themselves from their violent fascist neighbors is different from providing military hardware to Ukraine?
This is who Hamas is. This is what fascists do. There’s no real goal other than promoting violence to maintain their power.
People need to stop looking the other way about actions of those they support simply because they want to go along with what everyone else is supporting on the internet. People need to recognize that Palestine has a real fascism problem. Go ahead and criticize Israel if you want, but there won’t be peace while Palestine is fascist, because peace is antithetical to fascists.
Would Palestine have such a problem if Israel stopped encroaching on them? Honest question.
Yes, Hamas will still have their stated goal of killing all Israelis and taking all of the country.
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There are many people living in Palestine, it’s important not to generalize them all as having the same will.
But for Hamas (which holds a majority of the seats in the PA), the answer is unambiguously yes. Their charter explicitly calls for the eradication of Israel, and also of all Jews. Their actions confirm their intent. They are popular and irredeemable.
More generally, a common phrase among Palestinians is “from the river to the sea.” There are varying interpretations of this phrase, and its exact meaning, so not everybody who says it means that Israel should be razed off the map, but it likely includes at least a “right of return” for not only Palestinian refugees, but their descendants (who are often confoundingly referred to as refugees themselves). This influx of millions of Arabs into Israel—a democracy—would make it impossible for Israel to function as a safe haven for the Jewish people. That is intentional.
There are a couple of youtube channels going around just asking people questions. Different people have different perspectives. But by and large, Palestinians are not willing to accept current borders, or 1967 borders, or the UN’s proposed borders from the 1940s, or any such thing without other concessions that would seriously damage Israel.
Also Israel suported Hamas to displace the PLO and then it blew up in their face
Would Germany have been such a problem if the Treaty of Versailles been more fair? Honest question.
In answering this question do you find yourself in agreement with a certain fascist regime? Thinking the treaty of Versailles was unfair to Germany doesn’t make you a Nazi. Thinking that the Nazis were justified in their actions because of the unfairness of that treaty does make you a Nazi.
See that’s how fascist propaganda works. Make people focused only on the wrongs done to them while claiming any wrongs done by them is justified.
There is no justification for ethnic cleansing. This is the goal of Hamas. They are evil.
In answering this question do you find yourself in agreement with a certain fascist regime? Thinking the treaty of Versailles was unfair to Germany doesn’t make you a Nazi. Thinking that the Nazis were justified in their actions because of the unfairness of that treaty does make you a Nazi
Good comparison, thanks.
Can we stop calling everything fascist? Hamas is a terrible organization but they’re not fascist, they’re a theocratic jihadist group. It waters down us talking about actual fascists like Russia when we call every bad thing fascism.
Can we stop calling everything in the Middle East theocratic?
Hamas is a violent anti-democractic, and misogynistic movement centered around past humiliations and blood and soil type motivations. They tick all the boxes for fascist.
Putin tries to mix the Orthodox church into his rhetoric too you know. But no one buys it with Putin. People buy it when Hamas does it because of the assumption that Muslims are primitives that only understand religion and nothing else.
People are people everywhere. Palestinians are just as susceptible to fascist rhetoric as Russians, Americans, or anyone else in the world. American fascism is the Christian cross wrapped in the American flag. Religion being used as a tool a fascists shouldn’t surprise you, it’s the norm for these assholes.
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What is your description of fascism then?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism.[28][page needed] Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that “trying to define ‘fascism’ is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.”[29] Each different group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow.[30] According to many scholars, fascism—especially once in power—has historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[31]
Frequently cited as a standard definition by notable scholars,[32] such as Roger Griffin,[33] Randall Schweller,[34] Bo Rothstein,[35] Federico Finchelstein,[36] and Stephen D. Shenfield,[37] is that of historian Stanley G. Payne.[38] His definition of fascism focuses on three concepts:
“Fascist negations” – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism.
“Fascist goals” – the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire.
“Fascist style” – a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership.
Notably, when comparing with Hamas, 1) religion is of secondary consideration in fascism, and 2) facism tends to create cults of personality such as Hitler, Putin, etc. Fascism will always put party before everything, unlike religiously motivated groups. And in Islam particularly, it’s difficult for one charismatic leader to create a cult of personality because such a leader is always standing in the shadow of Mohammed.
Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion. It’s very difficult for a group under siege to be fascist as they simply don’t have the option for expansion.
Jihadis share many similar aspects with fascists, authoritarians, etc, but those are means to an end. In fascism, the means ARE the end, there’s no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion.
Palestinians all over the world chant “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” at demonstrations. This is a reference to lands that include Israel. So there is a desire for a non-democracy to expand into the territory of a democracy. This feeling is so pervasive in Palestinian culture it’s chanted in demonstrations on the other side of the world. Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
There have even been calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians living in western countries as well. “Push them into the sea, wipe them off the map” kinds of things. Why would someone not even living there be saying these things if it’s not a societal transformation?
If you look at the actual propaganda, very little references religion. It’s mostly about how the land rightfully belongs to Palestinians. Going on and on about the 1948 map, the Ottoman Empire etc. The only thing I see that’s somewhat religious is references to the times of the Crusades. “We’ll win in time like we did during the Crusades.” But note that’s also a reference to past greatness, one of the most defining characteristics of fascism. I mean where does the word fascism come from?
In fascism, the means ARE the end, there’s no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Yes and what exactly is the plan in this current aggression by Hamas? Do you feel like what they’re doing right now is part of a real plan? Nope. What is the plan for the many rocket attacks Hamas has done in the past? There is no plan. Hamas needs to kill Israelis to keep power. Do you think the Hamas leadership does these things because Allah told them to? Or do they do it to prevent their followers from leaving Hamas and joining some other group that is willing to execute attacks on Israel?
That’s the nature of fascism. You can get control over people by making them hate but you can’t allow that hatred to dissipate or you lose control. Hamas attacks Israel because if they don’t, they lose power. Sure they’ll use religious terminology to make their actions seem more legitimate to their followers, but in the end it boils down to blood and soil, promises of restoring past greatness, use of violence to maintain power.
Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
That’s such a stretch they should call you Mr Incredible.
I don’t know why I bothered, I knew even as I was typing that you weren’t interested in learning. I knew you were going to pick as many individual parts of that definition as you could and try to force the square peg of Hamas into the round hole of fascism. Because the alternative is that maybe you were wrong about something, and oh no we can’t have that.
We really need to do a better job funding our schools.
they’re a theocratic jihadist group
Politically there’s no difference, in the categorical sense, that is, isomorphic things are equal. But occasionally it’s even clearer as e.g. the Nazis, too, could be called a theocratic jihadist group if you squint just right: They had their own esoteric system, and they definitely had jihadist fervour. Merging the state and religion was very much among their stated goal and all their internal politics were geared towards that measure.
Russia, as of yet, isn’t fascist – though Putin is now going ahead to make it so: Previously, as a Russian you were supposed to be depoliticised, now schools are indoctrinating kids in a fascist understanding of war and struggle, they are getting politicised in the image of the regime, to make sure they’ll be willing cannon fodder.
And just for completeness sake: Likud, as of yet, doesn’t seem to be fascist, at least going by Umberto Eco, only like two of 14 points are met. The settler parties to the right of them definitely are, though, which makes Likud collaborators and enablers so don’t feel bad about calling them fascists.
And of course nobody is seeing the wider range of things. This was obviously caused by Russia and Iran in order to divert western attention from the Ukrainian-Russian war. Start actually giving tools to Ukraine to end Russia and you probably will be ending/preventing conflicts in a lot of places.
Any evidence for the “obvious”?
Western attention was already diverted, particularly in the US with Republicans actively blocking support for Ukraine. If anything, the opportunity for this attack was bolstered by Republican MAGA efforts to unseat McCarthy, as the US is further hampered by a dysfunctional House which now cannot approve aid to Israel (or Ukraine) until they select a new speaker.
Totally agree with you, (some) Republicans are helping Russia a lot. Should be investigated where their funding is coming from
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I don’t think we can blame the Brits here.
After what happened in WW2, it was a noble Idea to give the Jews their own Country. Nobody could forsee that the Victims of fascism would start to behave like this themselves.
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The Palestinian Mandate was, at the time, Britain’s “own land.” The indigenous people of Judea rebelled against the British and declared their independence. Give Wales to the Welsh and Ireland to the Irish, the Jews have no connection to or interest in Wales, it’s patently ridiculous to think we would want to live there.
So you believe you have a claim to the land of Palestine Because your imaginary God told you so. Humans can Justify whatever darkest shit they come with because their imaginary told them they are entitled to it. go give your story to other brain dead cultists. atheists can’t take that shit
I believe my people have a claim to the land of Israel because our ancestors live there—we didn’t live there because God says though, we lived there because we actually lived there, and there is no shortage of evidence in this matter, there is no room for doubt—and because my people have a right to self-determination in their homeland, as all other people everywhere do, and because my people have been ostracized and oppressed and killed in every other place we’ve attempted to make our homes in, and because our safety is not conditioned on your approval.
“our safety is not conditioned on your approval”
For sure You have the world’s biggest powers fighting your corner to oppress and genocide week people. the people who own that land are the people you found living there. going back thousands of years to legitimize stealing other people’s land doesn’t register with people who still have some brain cells. only the religiously brainwashed or heavily propagandized can justify the existence of a theocratic state called Israel
There have been Jews living there through those thousands of years, but if you’re referring to the immigration of the late 1800s and early 1900s, most of the land was unsettled, there weren’t many people living there at all. As we began to settle the British colony, Turks, Syrians, Jordanians, and other Arabs started to move there. They absolutely do not have more claim to the land than we do.
This would not justify genocide, which is why we are not engaged in genocide.
Israel is the only place we feel safe. We are still not interested in your opinions on our safety.
By they way Lemmy.World mods can eat shit too for deleting comments criticizing Israel. because “please engage in good-faith and respect”
Post pics from the modlog!
Edit; still waiting
Pathetic, they even deleted it from the mod log, It was there in the instance’s mod log this morning. despite me continuing to receive replies from my deleted comment . This is worse than reddit’s shenanigans !
Edit : it’s not only my comments which disappeared from the mod log, I remember having read many more comments about this situation on the mod log this morning deleted at the same time as mine. and now they have all disappeared
Israeli army does this, Hamas does that
The people suffer.
Religion best begets violence as this just brings us closer to WW3
I hope the Palestinian people and the Israeli people can know peace in this lifetime
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The Israeli Right sees the inevitable future; Israel will lose its Jewish majority in the next generation or two. Bibi said “Arabs breed like dogs”.
This is it. They may not get another opportunity to keep the Arabs down. They feel they need to crush and occupy Palestine because the alternative, in their eyes, is Arabs taking control of Israel and the Palestinians winning.
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Slowly genociding an entire people and their culture for their land eventually pushes them to commit unspeakable acts of violence to try and save themselves? Interesting.
Gaza population growth is 3% a year. If the Israelis are committing genocide they’re not doing a very good job.
Words matter. The Israelis treat the Palestinians atrociously but it’s not genocide.
If anything the attacks will always have a response so that a rational actor would think better the next time. That strategy at best keeps the status quo and at worst could end in their own extermination.
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You sound like a spastic. I wonder how many Palestinian civilians the Israeli government has killed. They really do deserve each other.
How is what zionists have been doing any better?
They’re not. Everyone sucks here.
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Our projections only ever reveal about ourselves, and never about the person onto which we thought to project.
That implies Israeli crimes are excusable.
No, it doesn’t, but the fact you think it does says a lot about YOU.
Rational, informed people condemn both sides here.
Self defense is inexcusable? Or only inexcusable when certain people deign to exercise such rights?
Self-defense against this little teenage monster, huh? https://www.instagram.com/p/CyG1HdsA5I9/
There’s no such thing as self-defense against a civilian who never hurt anybody.
These are not incidental victims while the terrorists target the IDF. These are the targets. They are targeting innocent little girls.
Yes, murdering and kidnapping civilians is inexcusable, why would that be excusable?
The Israelis murder and kidnap Palestinian children on an almost daily basis. They kill Palestinians regularly. Are they not civilians being unfairly brutalized or is it only unfair when the western world says so? Or only when the victims are female, another bizarre western norm.
The Israelis murder and kidnap Palestinian children on an almost daily basis.
Lol, you assholes just love the fact that nobody’s going to look this up on Google.
Not even close. Total Palestinian deaths this year are around 2-300, by Hamas estimates, and are mostly adults engaged in terrorism, although Hamas refuses to distinguish. That number likely also includes Palestinian victims of friendly fire. Kidnappings are negligible—unless you count arresting a terrorist as kidnnapping. Palestinian children have died, but it’s nowhere near daily or even weekly.
Absolute lies.
Pretty well documented at this point what the Israelis have and continue to do to the Palestinians but I see you.
If your lies were documented at all, you’d cite a source. Luckily, people can look these things up on Google.
Here’s an article from 234 days into the year, from Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/22/more-than-200-palestinians-nearly-30-israelis-killed-so-far-this-year-un. That number is not limited to children, it’s mostly active enemy combatants.
This will only bring more conflict upon the people Hamas pretends to “protect”
Worse than the abuse and degradation that they already experience? Worse than losing their land to thieves backed by the western world? Worse than being targeted by Zionist security agents?
Yes, since now all those things will be escalated in revenge for these indiscriminate attacks. It goes both ways, it’s not one side that needs to relent; to achieve peace, both sides need to relent, but acts like this make that notion more and more implausible, and in the end it’ll only lead to further escalation and further suffering, and given that Israel has more resources than Palestine or Gaza, that suffering will be felt more by the people Hamas “protects”.
You’d think after the atrocities of the 1930/40s they suffered they’d learn to have some empathy for others, but nope
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I think that if they had no empathy they would have exterminated them a long time ago. They have the capability
How is this saving themselves?
Do they somehow think that brutal violence at civilians will deter Israelis after brutal violence at civilians didn’t deter themselves?
No, all they’ve done here is fuck over both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. Senseless violence and revenge where nobody wins.
