Reminder that farmers can spend something like a dollar per cow per year to allow their cattle to roam through public lands to cause erosion, shit in streams, spread giardia, and give farmers reasons to kill coyotes and wolves.
Large heards grazing is necessary for grasslands to thrive.
They till the ground, knock down tall dead plants, graze (but not “browse” the grass), fertilize, and water the grass.
Deer and other fauna do not knock down the grass the way bovine do. We used to have millions of Buffalo. Now we use cattle as a substitute.
If we don’t do that, we have to burn the grassland. Or it dies.
That’s what we used to do in Kansas. It was quite fun. And the government paid us to do it.
Anyways. Here’s some evidence to back up what I’m saying: TED TALK
In some places, sure. But not everywhere they are. And you could/should reintroduce bison where they can go instead of using cattle. And the government should get more than the pittance they get per head.
While this is true, BLM land doesn’t exist everywhere and as such it isn’t true of all cattle farmers.
Also a shame that cow farts emit a lot of methane.
And how much more water goes into growing meat
They surpsingly release most methane through burping, not farting. Even more surprising is that they burp so much methane that it is
Edit: boost isn’t displaying links with custom titles. Here it is: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/30/us/cow-burps-methane-space-climate-trnd/index.html
Thats crazy. We need cow filters on all the holes.
The solution to bovine methane emissions is to install a cowalitic converter inside their mufflers. Just like we do with quad udder milk exhaust collectors.
On a serious note i read a while back that they are looking into a type of gut bacteria to give to cows which will significantly reduce the methane produced by the cows digestive system.
Send it.
This is mostly done in the western U.S. It also takes around 40 acres of land/cow. In drier areas it takes 200 acres per cow.
In an irrigated field, with annual crops, and rotational grazing, we can feed 2-4 cows/acre depending on the location.
We do not need to use 95% of the land we use for pasture.
These numbers are highly inflated
A 1,200 lb lactating beef animal needs around 3% of it’s body mass every day. So around 35lbs of dry matter forage per day. Works out to around 6.4 tons DM/year.
Under irrigation, In areas without freezing temps, 25tons DM/acre is possible (not easy) or 4 cows. In areas with freezing temps 12-15 tons DM/acre can be accomplished or 2 cows (1 cow if the growing season is short)
10-15" rainfall zone produces around 600lbs DM/acre of which around 50% is available (timing issue) this is around 0.15 tons DM/acre. 6.4 tons DM for one cow is around 43 acres.
In a 5-10" rainfall zone it reduces to under 200lbs DM/acre total. Or 0.05 tons DM/acre or around 128 acres per cow. With that much walking their energy needs increase by as much as 50%. Or around 200 acres/cow.
Guess who grew up on a ranch with BLM grazing ground :-) My grandfather decided going bankrupt was a better than listening to a younger more hotheaded me.
Cool cool cool, guess who grew up in Texas around 100 ranches? You aren’t accounting for how many times / much hay can be harvested from an acre of land, especially when you are talking about bahaia. While it may cost you a little more, to transport it to northern states its not 100 acres per cow. If your grandfather was a rancher, he definitely isn’t taking his cues from one granddaughter, especially if that’s how he raised your parent. We are a omnivores. We can get everything we need from both plant and animals, but as far as full chain amino acids- proteins, it is far more efficient from animals. The sad thing is we import a lot of meat, oddly enough from countries that don’t have near the land mass, and more people per acre than we have here and less regulation on how said how the meat was raised, so tell me if it take 100 acres of land to raise 1 head of cattle is possible?
Well that settles it. You too ignorant on the subject to make a coherent reply.
Hey mathematician, there are nearly 40 million cows in the US between beef and dairy, times that by 100 hundred, and that means we would need 4 billion acres to sustain them. There is only 2.4 in all of America. You dolt.
Lol. A swing and a miss. Not even close to what I said. Try again. Since your from, Texas perhaps your should see a Dr about concussive brain trauma.
Here’s a hint. Divide 40million by 2 cows per acre and you get 20 million. That’s about how many acres we need to use to feed every cow in the U.S under irrigated annual crops production. Instead we use around 800 million acres (grassland plus forest).
So 97.5% of the land are we are using to graze cows, we don’t need to use. We do it because the government subsidizes archaic agricultural practices and makes it affordable.
Don’t give a fuck. Tax the rich, then we can worry about what I eat.
Veganism is class warfare.
Absolutely fucked up that your taxes go to supporting animal abuse whether you like it or not. Although, arguably worse is how many people don't even give the animals' suffering a second thought and just take the selfish path. Even fucking stupider is that chicken can be bought at the same price as tofu per kg. Like what the shit? Stop subsidising it. It's environmentally destructive and incredibly immoral.
I’ve always thought that vegan activists would be a lot more successful if they could end these meat subsidies, instead of harassing the public. If the price of meat triples no one is going to be eating meat regardless of their politics.
Yeah but good luck getting anything passed when the GOP and all of the animal agriculture lobbying industry will be screaming from the rooftops about how everyone’s favorite foods will be more expensive.
“THEY’RE TAKIN AWAY OUR BERGERS!”
That’s exactly the reason this would never happen. The outrage would be uncontrollable.
Forcing people to do something is easier than making them change wilfully. But people still should have the moral integrity to make the right choice regardless. Plus, people are so propagandised and indoctrinated by the industry from politicians and other bullshit that it would be an incredibly hard battle to fight.
Change zoning laws so I can raise my own in my backyard other than just chickens. I have no problem raising and slaughtering my food. No need for factory farms.
How about we all raise our own cattle.
Since we can’t modify suburbia to accommodate that many cattle let alone the additional waste, how about we make specially designated places where we can send all our cows to live.
And since everyone travelling back and forth to look after their cattle would be highly impractical how about we designate a handful of individuals to care for all of the cattle so everyone else can worry about their other jobs.
And since it’s difficult for a single family to store and consume a whole cow, how about we designate a group of people to slaughter and process them into more manageable pieces.
And since everyone going to one place to get their meat and somewhere else to get the rest of their produce, how about we just sell them in one place together.
It’s almost like we know how this works out and should just improve the regulations around caring for our food while it’s alive.
Incoming pitbull-bull hybrids
“May as well” – how about October, March and August?
May as well not considering willful complicity in their deaths is wrong.
Oh well yes.
If it wasn’t obvious I’m a raging vegetarian. Just annoying.
Yes I could stop eating a pound a day but keto and vegetarian don’t mix well
Here it’s not just that.
The raw resources and production costs of oat milk is like, €0.30 per 2 liter.
They sell it at €2.40.
Healthy is capitalism here.
I believe they also put a lot of resources into research
Oat milk is just oats blended in water. The research is minimal. The marketing is where they put most of their money.
Most retail nut milk is actually mixed with a variety of gums and other texture enhancers.
Fresh, homemade oat milk is actually really easy to make by that process, but store-bought oat milk needs to have consistent flavor and texture/mouth-feel. So there is a bit more that goes into it.
This is also true of other non-dairy milks. That’s why I only use Trader Joe’s or Westsoy shelf-stable soy milk for making yogurt. No gums.
These are industry standard additives, that are trivial to develop recipes for. The research involved is minimal, and wouldn’t represent a significant portion of the business.
I think there is a huge difference in the thing you are describing and e.g the oatly barista.
There are a lot of oat milks that taste very different or not at all. To get the right taste and consistency, you need some research.
You’re the only one talking about niche/specialty products though. Not denying that those products require extensive research, but I doubt that those products alone are responsible for the considerable markup on the typical alternative milk products, which truly are closer to “oats blended in water”, and probably make up a majority of sales.
Plus vegans will pay anything in order to imagine themselves as being better than meat eaters.
I don’t think this is the case. Vegans are likely to spend less money on food.
Jokes on them, I’ll still only refer to it as oatmeal
Doesn’t production of not milk use a ton of water and have am environmental impact
One of the trends I have noticed with vegan users online is that they neglect to mention the environmental impacts of their own alternative products
Just another toxic ad FUCK capitalist system. Fuck the planet they got quarterly profits to beat!!
Oh man, staple crops are subsidized waaaaaayyy more heavily than beef. Some of this grain goes to the beef industry as feed, so it is indirectly supported by taxes. But the reality is that the soy, barley, beans, or whatever else is in that veggie burger are subsidized directly and more extensively.
Many of those types of crops used for feed aren’t really aligned all that well. Corn for instance isn’t going used so heavily in a plant-based diet as it is subsidized (corn is the most subsidized crop in the US). There is also separate food-grade and feed-grade soybeans. 90% of US soy production is going to feed (and not to mention a good portion of the other 10% is going to soybean oil which is not super helpful for a plant-based meat)
90% of U.S. soybeans produced are used as a high-quality protein source for animal feed
https://soygrowers.com/key-issues-initiatives/key-issues/other/animal-ag/
Further, they are still getting massive amounts of direct subsidies
The Department of Agriculture has spent almost $50 billion in subsidies for livestock operators since 1995, according to an EWG analysis.
By contrast, since 2018 the USDA has spent less than $30 million to support plant-based and other alternative proteins that may produce fewer greenhouse gases and may require less land than livestock.
Also worth mentioning that beans are not particularly highly subsidized unless you are counting soybeans mentioned earlier.
Where in the WORLD did you hear that bit of propaganda?
https://agriculturefairnessalliance.org/news/2020-farm-subsidies/
https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/
I can’t even find any source saying more money is spent on any crop than on beef. It seems like it’s totally made up. The numbers vary because it’s hard to pin down, but I can’t find a source saying anything besides “most subsidiaries go towards beef and dairy”
… The very first link you provided shows a chart that has more assistance going to corn than beef, more going to soy than dairy and more going to wheat then pigs.
https://agriculturefairnessalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/2020bdcat-1320x743.png
???
I don’t want to speak for them, but one can interpret crops subsidized for the purposes of livestock feed AS a subsidy for livestock. If you look at the sum of the purple sections (livestock and feed), it’s the largest.
But you are right: buddy’s own chart does show a larger direct subsidy for corn than direct subsidy for beef.
You are correct, because barely any actually goes to corn we eat. Those subsidies exist just to make it cheaper to raise live stock. So while direct subsidies are higher for corn, it’s so high purely to help raise live stock. Just because we “can” eat corn doesn’t really impact the fact that we aren’t, it’s mostly live stock eating the corn the subsidies are paying for (And biofuel)
Yup, here in Iowa the vast, vast majority of corn is known as “cattle corn”, and as described it’s used for cattle (and biodiesel, and pigs). Most farmers only grow sweetcorn “for fun”, as a side thing compared to the huge subsidies for cattle corn.
I think you should read more carefully what that chart is showing.
Corn for example is purple and gray mostly.
Purple = live stock feed gray = biodiesel
Soy is mostly purple, so most of it goes towards feeding live stock.
So most of the subsidiary is just being spent to make it cheaper to raise live stock.
Also grains are subsidized to support the beef industry because feeding beef beef byproduct had predictable results.
Just wanna point out that it’s “biodiesel and Industry” specifically because ethanol is added to almost all gas and more.
Ethanol is trashing engines and producing more waste via dead engines, all while providing jack shit for actual cleaner energy. The corn lobby landed ethanol requirements and it’s never going away now that they’ve found that revenue stream.
Pigs and chickens don’t eat air, you know.
70% of US soy becomes animal feed. Some of the rest is used industrially, or becomes biodisel. Relatively little US soy becomes soy sauce, tofu, etc.
Soy subsidies, in practice, mostly function as a chicken and pork subsidy.
You’ll notice that we heavily subsidize animal feed crops like corn and soy, and spend much less money subsidizing fruits and veggies, nuts, and other legumes like black beans or lentils.
Soy subsidies, in practice, mostly function as a chicken and pork subsidy.
i think there’s a case to be made that it’s actually a corn subsidy more than chicken or pork.
70% of US soy becomes animal feed.
almost all soy is pressed for oil. the industrial waste from that process is the vast majority of what is fed to animals.
It’s worth noting that in countries like US, it’s really only things like beyond burgers and impossible meat that cost more. It doesn’t require eating those for a plant-based diet nor are people typically eating those every meal, is why plant-based diets generally have lower costs
Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via%3Dihub
It found that in high-income countries:
• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.
• Vegetarian diets were a close second.
• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.
• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
Yeah people really don’t believe me when I talk about how much I save by being a low fish pescatarian. A can of beans is cheaper than equivalent beef or chicken as are mushrooms. Peanut butter sandwiches are a cheaper lunch than lunch meat ones. And I’m not hurting for protein because beans are full of the stuff
I’m not vegetarian, but I will stand by peanut butter being the best sandwich filling for packing lunch. Nothing compares to its ability to keep well in a room temperature ziploc bag.
I realy don’t get why people eat those meat subsidies. They are realy not that good and unhealthy too. Cooking a meal just with vegetables and other stuff can taste realy good, is healthy and cheap at the same time.
Probably because Americans were raised on a super meat heavy diet. Meat burgers. Meat casseroles. Meat sauces. Meat everything. Fake meats make those recipes achievable for vegetarians and vegans who long for mom’s home cooking.
This is only a recent thing historically. Government subsidies and lobbying from the meat industry, not to mention letting agricultural corporations create our food pyramid, got us to where we are today.
We have been led into an unhealthy lifestyle for the profit of a handful of billionaires.
Take a look at places where people live above 100 yrs regularly. They aren’t shoveling beef down there throats like Americans are. And we die 20 to 30 years earlier on average
Couldn’t be the lack of universal healthcare or other social services. Just meat.
Couldn’t be a combination of factors could it?
Italian here, sardegna. Sausage, porchetto, chicken, lamb (lots of it), small baby birds, brains, all kinds of fish especially sword fish, octopus and Squid, lots of cured meats… the list goes on. Every meal has a meat and we live the longest in italy.
They’re junk food and that’s why I love them.
It’s the same impulse that keeps me buying Takis.
Want to hear some mind-blowing information? Not everyone likes the stuff you like, you’re not the barometer on what is good or what is unhealthy.
You want the real reason in a thread jerking off vegetarianism? Here goes:
- Meat tastes great.
- It gives me a sense of fullness that plants rarely do (except beans).
- It’s a better protein source.
- The iron, B12, etc. in it are more easily absorbed.
- Every brand of fake meat I’ve tried tastes terrible.
- It makes me feel the best mentally compared to eating other foods.
Why is it that countries that don’t eat red meat as much as Americans live far longer than we do?
Okinawans live well past 100, and are doing physical activity into their 90s. Americans are falling apart by the time they turn 60, dead before they hit 80.
I hope the flavor is worth the colon cancer!
I’m sure that’s the only difference between the average American and people from those countries. Same exact genetics, lifestyles, air pollution, economy, etc.
I would love you to show me where I said that’s the only difference.
They also have a sense of community. Americans will fuck over anyone for a slight advantage.
They also are physically active, unlike Americans eating 3k calories and sitting on their asses all day.
There are actually many places on Earth that are just like Okinawa in that they have long lives. I think that’s evidence enough that genetics are not a big factor. They are not some sort of superhumans, They just live a better life.
Go ahead and defend how Americans live… We are insatiable pigs, on a whole. Nearly half of us are overweight because we can’t control ourselves. We have no meaningful culture. We have no sense of community. We are individualistic to the core. And we die before we hit the age 80. But yeah America’s number one right?
While moderation is the key to everything, and I wouldn’t be surprised if cutting out red.meat is a lot healthier for the consumer
Feels like you just randomly made something up here by comparing some random outlier stories you’ve heard.
Not American myself, but I can think of a few factors besides meat:
- less stress
- less polution
- less processed food, be it meat or not
- less sugar
- less sedentary lifestyle
- genes
Nutrition alone won’t get you to 100. Having a diverse diet keeps ypu healty, but there are many factors that impact health. I do agree that meat is overused in general population, but can’t really force the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle onto an omnivore specie.
Yes meat does that. I am talking about fake meat.
Impossible and beyond taste delicious in respective appropriate dishes. Dunno wtf you’re on about. Also a lot less prep and clean up to toss a frozen patty on the grill than cook a bunch of veggies. The downside is that it isn’t particularly healthy-- at least on par with a red meat burger. But the idea that they all “taste bad” is just dumb and contrary to what clearly a ton of other people experience.
Oh yeah I 100% spend less on food as a vegetarian, because black beans/lentils are such wonderful cheap sources of protein.
But sometimes I want like the premade like meat crumbles or burgers, and those cost more usually.
But do you spend less because you’re vegetarian, or because you don’t have options for spending money at fast food / restaurants?
I mean a pound of beef costs $4.
A pound of raw lentils like a $1.
Lentils are more calorie dense.
Lentils are more protein dense.
Black beans are in similar camp.
Rice and wheat products are cheaper per calorie, but lack the protein.
So yeah, it’s just cheaper to be a vegetarian, even with massive beef subsidiaries. But veggie patties are still more expensive because of processing and they are smaller batches.
Unfortunately the difference between eating meat or lentils is having to eat lentils lol.
… okay you got me there.
But the veggie tech to make meat likes is getting better, so hopefully soon!
Lol, lentils are freaking bomb. Its a win win for me, I can eat bomb ass lentils, and save money.
My mom would make lentil stew with sausage and I always ate the sausage and left the lentils. Was also forced to stay at the table until bed time because I refused to eat them. I need meat with my legumes that is if I am not working because I have a severe carb intolerance so anything from oats, to brown rice to beans and tubers trigger my IBS and make me confused. The only fix was 3 months of straight keto where I felt amazing, was exercising and looked great but… my boyfriend learned how to make pizza thw right way and nothing will ever replace the dough on pizza so once a week I have that, fast the rest and when I eat it’s steak or chicken or shrimp or fish with spinach or something. I need to work so I can’t just have a bean burrito or a bowl of rice or ill end up fired for spending too much time in the toilet or getting someone killed because I can’t think.
Must be nice to have that kind of privilege to eat what you want though!
I’ve always had issues with lentils but my diet is very Midwest American lol. The only time I’ve had good lentils is when they’re masked as much as possible in heavily spiced curries or similar.
Aren’t they already used in a bunch of processed foods as filler?
To add to this as a vegan of 10+ years. To supplement the lack of protein, I use pea based protein powder for a meal. And add hemp seeds for other meals/snacks during the day.
We occasionally get the processed grounds/meat substitutes only when they are on sale. Which would be 2lbs for $6 for a gardien/beyond/impossible alternative to animal flesh in pounds.
Beef is more nutritious though.
So giving subsidies for that means more people can afford good nutritious food.
I read that veggie burgers/ processed vegetarian foods have more human DNA in them than traditional options. Plus beef is delicious and nutritious.
If you knead bread by hand, it’ll have some human DNA in it from e.g your skin cells. It’s almost impossible to cook or process food while preventing it from getting literally any human cells into it, because humans are shedding cells and DNA literally all the time. You can wear gloves, hairnets, and frequently mop up, but eliminating the problem entirely is hard.
Both a vegetarian burger and a beef burger are probably going to have more human DNA in it than either a steak or a pot of black beans would.
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If you learn how to make your own patties from scratch it’s pretty cheap - or to save time you can do what I do and eat beans directly from the air fryer 🤤
oh damn I have an air fryer
recipe?
I actually just rinse off canned beans, spray them with vegetable oil, toss em in at 400F for 8-12 minutes, then shake them in a baggie with salt and spices. Or mix them in a bowl with hot sauce. Or use them as a topping for rice. Or throw them in stir fry. Or sauteed onions and bell peppers, then put them on tortillas.
God damn I love air fried beans
Damn, thanks for the tip, I gotta try this
Holy shit TIL, thanks
neat, thanks! I will try this
What kinda beans tho?
All kinds!
Airfried garbanzo beans are great as a salty snack (generally I like to use a sweet chili seasoning) or sauteed with onions and peppers and fajita seasoning and then served on soft tortillas. Airfried pintos are great as a salty snack (chili lime or nooche is best for them) or sauteed with corn and onions and taco seasoning, and then topped with fresh tomato and lettuce and put on crunchy tortillas. Airfried black beans are great as a salty snack (just straight with salt and pepper) or just drenched in hot sauce and eat em with a spoon.
I wasted so much of my life thinking I didn’t like beans because I’d only ever had nasty baked beans from school lunches. 😞
Mouthwatering!
Or vegans are more affluent and locked in so the take what they can get.
Americans earning less than $30,000 annually are more likely to identify as vegetarian. Nine percent of this group say they are vegetarian, a higher percentage than is true of Americans in the two higher-income groups. Differences in levels of veganism among these three groups are not statistically significant.
So it’s just.abuse of the limited options for vegans. Sounds like a new burger chain in the making that offers same prices for everybody.
That’s me, involuntarily vegetarian, inveg?
When the people shall have nothing more to eat, they shall
eat the richbecome inveg
No, it’s the first one.
Why is vegan lingo so infantile? Veggies. You can cram you veggies up your asshole. I’m having a burger.
Really? That’s the angle you’re going for? Lmao you’re offended by the word “veggies”, a word nearly universally used by nearly every English speaker? Uh oh, looks like your fragile masculinity is showing
my masculinity is big and hard
Tons of people say veggies. Including meat eaters.
I also think it’s worth noting that the meme says “veggie burgers.”
I don’t think I’ve ever seenveggie burgers, vegan restaurant or not, labelled as “vegetable burgers.” Dude wanted to be upset just to be upset lmao.
Never say America can’t afford to feed its people. It can, it just prefers to prop up failing and immoral industry instead.
It can afford to feed rich people.
It can afford to feed rich people. Exactly.
Feeding and eating well are two different things.
