Yeah I shouldn’t have used Vietnam as an example bc I am aware that they’re somehow largely favorable to the US still, but the lasting effects of US imperialism on the population there is what I was really trying to get at.

Why don’t we ask South America, the Middle East, and Vietnam what they think about the US?

but it’s clear which is the better option for many

… American tax dollars are at this moment funding the genocide of Palestinians.

EDIT to add: I should clarify I’m no CCP apologist, nor do I uplift China as an example of what we should strive for. But I also really get tired of seeing America put on a pedestal. America was built on genocide, slavery, and exploitation, I don’t see how it should ever be an example of how to do things better, BECAUSE that line of reasoning (“at least we’re better than them”) has been used to justify many of the horrors of our history.

By using that bit of propaganda, you’re contributing to things like Americans looking the other way/enabling - for the past 75 years - genocide. It’s the same “they’re savages” shit that was used to justify literally the most savage acts against Native Americans.

Our democracy also isn’t actual democracy. By definition, a democracy must represent the will of the people. Ours does not. It is already a failed democracy, and has been for my entire life. America also produces more propaganda than any other country. Do we have more personal freedoms in many areas than people in China? Absolutely. Are there many areas throughout society where I think America has pushed the world forward and made it a better place? Absolutely.

But I’m getting really sick of seeing America compared to China just to say “we’re better”.

So you’re just talking out your ass and presenting as fact.

I asked for sources for your claim because I couldn’t find a single source saying it was Hamas, while multiple claimed Israel.

I’m the one actually doing research and being responsible about how I discuss this topic. You presented as fact something you couldn’t provide a single source for. I said “there’s reports” and was able to provide a handful of reports when asked.

I’ve read multiple books on the conflict, I know pretty detailed history going back to just prior to 1917. I don’t need a wikipedia article that goes back less than 20 years, thanks.

iF yOu CaN, aLSo rEaD iN diFFeReNT lAnGuAGes

How about if you can, don’t present complete bullshit as fact? For starters, at least. Then maybe you can get on some goofy-ass multilingual high horse 🤦‍♂️

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-c8b4fc20e4fd2ef381d5edb7e9e8308c

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrike-kills-women-children-fleeing-evacuation-route-northern-gaza-2023-10

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-bombs-hit-only-exit-route-for-gaza-residents-4469430

And an eyewitness report: https://www.972mag.com/gaza-salah-al-din-road/

I didn’t bother sourcing since this was all easy to find, but happy to provide.

Source? Or is that just a hunch that you’re presenting as fact?

In fact, I’d be wary of saying anything without “reportedly” heavily attached in this kinda situation. There is so much propaganda and misinformation that stating anything as fact is dangerous.

There’s reports of them bombing the exit corridor.

Sorry its just so rare to find someone who completely understands every aspect of a 100 year war and has all the answers.

You don’t have to understand every aspect to know that Israel is the aggressor, which you continue to try to cast doubt on. Which leads me to believe you’re either a Zionist or otherwise motivated to make Palestinians look bad, based on your comment history and refusal to acknowledge things such as Israel literally helping create Hamas, and your reluctance to distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians.

You’re either letting your hatred for religion dictate your views, or you’re bigoted.

And ofc pre-Nakba matters, but Nakba was the beginning of the apartheid that Palestinians are currently living under, and perhaps the single greatest determining event in the conflict, in addition to being the start of the state of Israel and thus organized violence by Israel against Palestine.

Didn’t I already explain this to you like 5 times?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

Like I said in my previous comments addressing your ignorance, EDUCATE YOURSELF on the situation if you insist on commenting on it.

Wow look at that you said something that wasn’t totally braindead, and actually managed to not stereotype all Palestinians as religious extremist terrorists! Great job!

Now focus your energy on the oppressor instead of blaming Israel and Hamas equally, and maybe read a book on the situation before u keep talking about it.

Almost like you just ignore evidence that yea, Sunni Muslim populations who welcome Shar’ia law don’t provide good lives for women by definition.

Where in any of my comments did I ignore that? You’re the one ignoring oppression of women by being dismissive of the oppression of Palestinians.

You understand how intersectional feminism works, right? You understand how extremist groups like Hamas have substantially more power and support because of the oppression of the Palestinian people, right? Oh no, you don’t. You’re totally uneducated on the situation there, and shouldn’t be speaking on it until you take the time to read a damn book.

You also ignored my question about what Hamas would do to Israel if they had more weapons / power.

Because it’s an idiotic question. The reason Hamas exists at all is Israeli oppression and attempted genocide of Palestinians, the reason Hamas became a terrorist group attacking civilian targets is Israeli oppression. Hamas doesn’t exist without absolutely disproportionate Israeli violence. Israel DOES have the power, and IS suppressing. “What if” Hamas was as powerful as Israel is an absolutely idiotic question to pose that does nothing to help discussion, nothing to educate, IT ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVERSATION and demonstrates an utter lack of education on the nature/origins of the conflict. Therefore it’s a stupid fucking question that didn’t deserve an answer, but because you’re so fucking dense, there.

You’re the one confusing Palestine and Hamas. Israel is attacking the Gaza strip which is run by Hamas.

Wow congratulations you know something! Yes Gaza is run by Hamas. Doesn’t mean that everyone living there is Hamas, headass. Most people are just Palestinians. Thats like saying "you’re confusing Jews and Israel, the nation of Israeli is an extremist government. Like yeah no shit.

yeah lol edited

Yeah but good luck getting anything passed when the GOP and all of the animal agriculture lobbying industry will be screaming from the rooftops about how everyone’s favorite foods will be more expensive.

If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.

Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.

There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.

So I’m saying “idiotic shit”

Correct

Israel’s actions are unjustifiable, and for you to say otherwise shows your complete and utter lack of education on the topic at hand.

Don’t comment any more on this thread please, you’re too ignorant and will only be contributing to misinformation.

Next time I’ll play the part of the jester and say idiotic shit and you can play the part of the person who is actually educated on the topic at hand.

Palestine≠Hamas.

Palestine is a country/people, Hamas is an extremist religious group that controls a portion of Palestinian territory right now.

Funny how you COMPLETELY IGNORED the source I shared which discussed exactly how that circumstance affects women’s rights. And chose not to speak at all about the ongoing struggle for gender equality or equality for Palestinians. But instead chose to focus on your hatred for an extremist militant organization while equivocating that as representing an entire people who cannot possibly be represented by them due to the very nature of the situation.

Almost like, in all your comments, you were never actually concerned about women’s rights, but were just looking to excuse your bigotry.

So you don’t care about any other human rights, only rights for women, right? So if a country doesn’t have a perfect gender equality track record, I can’t be upset at injustices happening to Palestinian people because some Palestinians are religious extremists.

What does that remind me of? Oh yeah, blatant racism.

Still waiting on a source that says people have been stoned to death for dressing inappropriately in Palestine. You completely ignored that.

I have no doubt there is religious extremism and I understand that freedoms for women and overall freedom in Palestine are far from perfect. But a large reason religious extremist groups in Palestine have as much power as they do is thanks to Israel’s suppression causing more extremism, so if you ACTUALLY care about women’s rights in Palestine, you’d be advocating for Israel to end their oppression.

Im not silly enough to think that if these abrahamic relgions spread that I will be spared.

But you are silly enough to think that they’re gonna spread and affect you. Right now, they don’t. RIGHT NOW, the Israeli government is continuing it’s apartheid state, oppressing indigenous people.

And because you can’t be assed to look anything up, I’ll copy-paste for you:

Palestinian women’s struggle for gender equality and women’s rights is restricted by two main interrelated forces: the Israeli occupation, and internal patriarchal control. Women activists in Palestine are fighting simultaneously on two fronts for political (national) and social (gender) liberation. They remain sceptical of a feminist agenda that primarily focuses on individual and social gender empowerment and instead insist that gender inequality in their context stems not only from patriarchal oppression, but from poverty, economic dependency, continued political violence, insecurity and instability caused by Israeli occupation, siege and settler-colonial policies. Israeli occupation policies of territorial (and political) fragmentation, spatial separation and mobility restrictions have systematically dispossessed, occupied and destroyed Palestinian living spaces, breaking up Palestinian territory into several unconnected and isolated cantons. Such policies of spatial control have a severe damaging impact on Palestinian economy (Roy, 2004), society, family and kinship organisation (Johnson, 2006), but also on women’s activism. Women are not only divided geographically (between - and within - the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Diaspora), but, more importantly, their contexts and predicaments are widely varying: refugees, West Bank and Gaza ‘citizens’, East Jerusalemites and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship all have different access to rights. This wide variation and fragmentation complicates women activists’ efforts to organise a united agenda. While the specificities of refugees and ‘citizens’ in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem will be drawn out, this note does not cover Palestinian women’s rights and issues of gender equality inside Israel or the Diaspora. Women’s rights in Palestine thus cannot be dealt with in isolation; the impact that the occupation and political conflict have on women’s legal, social, cultural, educational, economic and political status is crucial when looking for possible strategies to empower women. This is not to say that patriarchal structures and cultures are not a major concern for Palestinian women’s activists. To the contrary, it highlights that women’s empowerment in the Palestinian context and their struggle for equal rights is closely linked to their political and economic empowerment which can only be achieved by ending the Israeli occupation.

But if I went to Palestine in the body I currently inhabit, I’d be raped and stoned in the streets for the way I dress.

I obviously don’t know how you dress, but could you provide a source saying that someone has (at least somewhat recently) been stoned to death in Palestine for the way they dress?

I tried researching this myself because it sounded like some bigotry based on absolutely nothing, and I found nothing. I did find several articles about a Palestinian woman who was stoned by Israelis, and obviously Palestine has lots of issues related to religion, but saying you’d be “stone for what you’re wearing” is a pretty bold claim to make

I’ve seen videos of children of both cultures calmly telling tourists they should die, that god will kill them, that the children themselves would kill them if they could.

Okay, so you hate religion, got it. I’m not big on religion myself, especially when religion is entwined with govt, but that doesn’t mean I go around being a centrist in a conflict which has a clear aggressor and a clear overall victim. Even tho both do suffer from the situation, Palestine is absolutely the victim here.

If their cultures grow and succeed they wont care that you helped, they’ll use their power to subjugate you to their god all the same.

How about - since that’s complete conjecture and based on nothing but your personal biases and distate for religion, we cross that bridge when we get there and currently worry about the apartheid state that’s carried out much of stages 0-8 of genocide against the Palestinian people.

Correct. So let’s call terrorism terrorism and not apply that label to an entire indigenous population because members of a militant extremist group committed terrorism, mkay? Glad I had to spell that out for you.