Israel was taken by surprise by the most ambitious operation Hamas has ever launched from Gaza.
The scale of what’s been happening is unprecedented. Hamas breached the wire that separates Gaza from Israel in multiple places in the most serious cross-border attack Israel has faced in more than a generation.
It came a day after the 50th anniversary of the surprise attack by Egypt and Syria in 1973 that started a major Middle East war. The significance of the date will not have been lost on the Hamas leadership.
Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country is at war and will exact a heavy price from its enemies.
Videos and photos of dead Israelis, civilians as well as soldiers, are all over social media.
I keep popping into these threads just to check, and not one of those “private property is theft you can’t own land” people that are so prevalent in the rest of lemmy’s threads has brought this up yet. Seemingly, they do in fact think that either israel or palestine can claim “true” ownership of said land, due to this or that reason.
Tangentially related at best I know, I just find that pretty interesting.
Israel and Palestine are both countries. Private ownership does not factor into the equation. If you get into the weeds, part of the dispute is a claim of private property rights that predate Israel. But even that duspute could be viewed through the lense of collective rights.
“In the weeds”? That’s like the main impetus of the entire conflict.
Interesting, so those people think that “states” can own the land? This distinction seems odd to me, one would think that if “land cannot be owned” as is the typical assertion, it wouldn’t matter if a state or an individual is doing the “owning,” it “can’t be done.”
“The state” is distinct from “the people,” as well, unless either of these states (Israel or Palestine) are actually marxist and have abolished “the state,” then one could make the argument that “the people” have become “the state,” however then the argument could also be made that there is no “state” to speak of that could do the land owning. And as far as I’m aware, neither “state” is that.
I’m not going to disagree with you, but I am going to push back on your theatrics. You obviously know that nations exert sovereignty over land. You imply as much by your criticism of private property.
You use a lot of quotes to imply these ideas are foreign and odd to you. Even if you disagree, at least have the courtesy of intellectual honesty.
I’m just wondering how “land can’t be owned by anyone” jives with “except by the state.” Seems to me “anyone” would include any group of “someones” that refer to themselves as “the state.”
You should consider being less obnoxious.
If I’m being obnoxious to them hexbear types: “No.”
Technically Palestine isn’t considered an official state cuz of the 1948 treaty/ agreement.
Ok sure, but as to the “land can’t be owned” crowd, supposedly, that wouldn’t be relevant. State or no state, “cannot” is pretty cut and dry.
Also, I’m not super up on that agreement obviously and I’m not referencing it with my confusion as to the sudden shift in the acceptability of land ownership depending on if it is a “state” that owns said land, and this question is unrelated even to that, however I wonder, how does that agreement define “state?”
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Why can’t their stupidassed god stop the attacks like they said he would?
Which side’s god are you talking about?
Exactly
I genuinely believe Hamas got through because the Israeli military got lazy and complacent.
I think it’s an issue with this generation. They were caught with their pants down, literally.
Well, they attacked on Simchat Torah (and Shabbat). Simchat Torah is one of our relatively few Happy holidays, and it’s a day where Jews are not supposed to do any work, use fire, use electricity, etc. but are in fact supposed to be celebrating in synagogue.
This is not the first time they’ve attacked on a Jewish holy day. It’s entirely intentional.
I mean, letting your guard down on a holy day isn’t really an excuse.
This is not the first time they’ve attacked on a Jewish holy day. It’s entirely intentional.
Then… they should’ve been better prepared for this? I don’t get your point.
Yeah, they should have, and to some extent they were. I don’t think they “let their guard down,” but I’m not in the IDF, I don’t know how many people take the day off on shabbat or on simchat torah, I’m just saying that this was very intentional timing. It is, to the day, the 50 year anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.
It’s entirely intentional
I mean of course it is. Anyone involved in a war would choose to time their attacks at the time they think it’s going to be most effective; it would be silly to suggest otherwise.
It’s certainly sad that civilians keep dying in this, but when one side is arguably committing a genocide against the other, and not-even-arguably is an apartheid state subjugating the other side, it’s very hard to side with the apartheiders.
lol what?
“Genocide” is really hard to argue when their population keeps going up and most of the people being killed are active enemy combattants who target civilians.
“Apartheid” is hard to argue for a totally egalitarian state on the basis that it has borders. Oh no! The US is engaged in Apartheid with Mexico! The Apartheid lie is very easy to argue against, because there’s no basis for it.
Well, not literally.
If I were Mossad I’d be ashamed right now. How the fuck did they miss this? The FBI missed 12(?) 9/11 hijackers and it was the fuck up of a lifetime. Mossad missed an ENTIRE MILITARY OPERATION. Wtf?
Missed probably organized this like they did the several other before.
Worse even. Mossad notified FBI about the pending attack.
Glorious. Zionists finally getting a taste of their own medicine
“Blindsides” give me a break. You are telling me one of the most intelligence heavy militaries in the world couldn’t possibly have seen this coming? Israel let this happen to justify wiping out hamas for good.
They were specifically warned by Egypt that something big was about to happen.
Everyone choosing a side between Palestine and Israel, but I’m going to take the mega unpopular stance of fuck both these people. Fuck the fundamentalist followers of Abraham, no matter what branch.
They would visit great violence on you in the name of their god if they had the chance. They are murderously self-righteous.
Yeah I’m with you here.
Seems so strange that two sects of the same religion would commit horrid acts of violence against each other, against children, all because at some point some dude may have said some different shit than some other dude at a place like 60 miles away.
I also don’t get the side picking. This attack was violent and horrible, but does that wipe away the decades of horrible shit Isreal has done? Seems like two toxic groups are doing toxic shit at each other.
I only feel sorry for the innocent people caught in the cross fire.
They are too similar, so they must go out of the way to villainize and demonize the “other” lest people not feel like they are 100% in the right. Something similar to you but not you might make the regulars of society realize the invisible lines and honestly they don’t really want to think about it anyways. Us vs them and the more alike the mora adamant the existence of differences.
Calling this a religious war completely misses the socioeconomic context. Palestine is extremely poor, but they’ve also been systematically oppressed, had their homes stolen from them, had their rights ripped away, and are treated as basically subhuman.
Religion is the power that’s organizing revolutionaries, but it’s not the power that’s creating revolutionaries.
I think calling it a socioeconomic war strips away all the context of the last 100ish years. These groups are fighting over who gets Jerusalem, because they believe it’s holy. The socioeconomic conditions in Palestine are the result of a long holy war that they are losing. Tell me I’m wrong.
Enlightened centrist
Which side should you support? Maybe the only side actually facing genocide.
Israel is kettling Palestine. Palestine has no option but to fight back against israels apartheid.Both sides say they want to eradicate the other but only Israel is actually doing genocide.
Maybe the only side actually facing genocide.
For better or worse (probably worse though) the British gave Israel to the jews because they were also facing genocide. So it’s not quite as clear cut as you’d like it to be.
I get it. if I was born in Palestine I’d fight too. But if I went to Palestine in the body I currently inhabit, I’d be raped and stoned in the streets for the way I dress.
I’ve seen videos of children of both cultures calmly telling tourists they should die, that god will kill them, that the children themselves would kill them if they could. The Israeli children are dressed nicer, but the raw hatred is the same. Both cultures suckle their children on self-righteousness. On stories of being ‘gods chosen’. If their cultures grow and succeed they wont care that you helped, they’ll use their power to subjugate you to their god all the same. Because they’re ‘special’
You keep talking about rhetoric. Now do reality. Who is being exterminated?
Hint it’s not the Jews this time.
Theyre both exterminating each other, and the one with the most power is doing better at it. If Palestine suddenly had more power, they would be doing better at it. HAMAS has as much chance of establishing a peaceful secular democracy as ISIS
Same for Israel
Same for Israel … establishing a peaceful secular democracy? I agree. And I wish the US would stop subsidizing their madness, but our religious fundamentalists (who have too much power) think they need their religious fundamentalists to be located in Israel for ‘god’ to return to earth.
Religion is a blight on the planet.
No they’re not that’s the point. Palestine cannot destroy Israel. You act like both sides have the ability to wipe each other out.
People forget only one side has access to nuclear weapons on top of a very modern military arsenal.
I agree with you, but I dont agree that they wouldn’t destroy Israel given the power.
Palestine can’t destroy Israel, but there are quite a few like minded governments surrounding the country that have attempted that before.
Even specific to this invasion, hamas is suspected to be receiving considerable backing from another country to destabilize Israel or any other myriad reasons. This conflict isn’t happening in an isolated bubble with just two sides.
and Israel has had a few years to create a more stable solution.
I would suggest continuing to support illegal settlements in Palestinian land is not conducive.
And? If I blow up somebody’s house and family with a $1,000,000 missile while they blow up mine with $150 worth of explosives, does that make one side more right?
No, both side are cooking in hatred. The bigger question isn’t “who has the better ability to kill the other side” but rather “who has the better ability to break the cycle, and what can they do towards such means”
The thing is, they were objectively Palestinian homes that were getting blown up and literally stolen right out from under them. It’s not “trading blows,” it’s "this is our land now because God said so, and we have the most high tech weapons on the planet (thanks US) to enforce it.
And apparently they immediately “forgot” what they vowed never to.
To suggest the cost of the armament isn’t going to be in any way proportionate to it’s capacity for destruction is silly.
That’s too bad
They’re absolutely not “both exterminating each other”. Please do yourself a favor and find some (accurate) death count numbers for every single clash between Israel and Palestine, AT THE VERY LEAST since they began building settlements on Palestinian land.
Every single time, it is the opposite of proportional response. They kill 100x-1000x more. They are slaughtering several orders of magnitude more (and we’ll just see it again in the coming days/weeks). The majority of Israelis that have died in these conflicts are IDF. They are soldiers.
On the other hand, Israel TARGETS civilians (including people clearly marked as civilian medics and the press) and fucking children in their “response”.
Palestinians could never actually put up an even, proportional battle (for example, Ukraine and Russia seems at least relatively proportionate). What’s happening in Israel isn’t a battle or a war, it’s genocide.
Has your country been attacked / been in any wars?
I assure you no one is trying to do ‘proportional’ damage. Thats not how anything works. Someone attacks you, you try to crush them.
All the same I wish the US would stop subsidizing Israel because they suck too. They might not do so well against Palestine then.
How do you not see Isreal as having been on a decades-long attack? Seriously, how does that happen?
But if I went to Palestine in the body I currently inhabit, I’d be raped and stoned in the streets for the way I dress.
I obviously don’t know how you dress, but could you provide a source saying that someone has (at least somewhat recently) been stoned to death in Palestine for the way they dress?
I tried researching this myself because it sounded like some bigotry based on absolutely nothing, and I found nothing. I did find several articles about a Palestinian woman who was stoned by Israelis, and obviously Palestine has lots of issues related to religion, but saying you’d be “stone for what you’re wearing” is a pretty bold claim to make
I’ve seen videos of children of both cultures calmly telling tourists they should die, that god will kill them, that the children themselves would kill them if they could.
Okay, so you hate religion, got it. I’m not big on religion myself, especially when religion is entwined with govt, but that doesn’t mean I go around being a centrist in a conflict which has a clear aggressor and a clear overall victim. Even tho both do suffer from the situation, Palestine is absolutely the victim here.
If their cultures grow and succeed they wont care that you helped, they’ll use their power to subjugate you to their god all the same.
How about - since that’s complete conjecture and based on nothing but your personal biases and distate for religion, we cross that bridge when we get there and currently worry about the apartheid state that’s carried out much of stages 0-8 of genocide against the Palestinian people.
I wear clothes that show my arms and legs below the knee, and I like to be able to go outside at night. Audacious I know, for me to want the same freedoms as men. Do you need sources for the fact that I can’t do this in Palestine? Do you need sources for the fact that when Palestine started to see more beach tourism, HAMAS swooped in to crackdown on women on the beach?
Im not silly enough to think that if these abrahamic religions spread that I will be spared.
You’re right. Palestine are victims now. If Israel stopped being funded by the west, Israel would be the victims next. You disagree?
So you don’t care about any other human rights, only rights for women, right? So if a country doesn’t have a perfect gender equality track record, I can’t be upset at injustices happening to Palestinian people because some Palestinians are religious extremists.
What does that remind me of? Oh yeah, blatant racism.
Still waiting on a source that says people have been stoned to death for dressing inappropriately in Palestine. You completely ignored that.
I have no doubt there is religious extremism and I understand that freedoms for women and overall freedom in Palestine are far from perfect. But a large reason religious extremist groups in Palestine have as much power as they do is thanks to Israel’s suppression causing more extremism, so if you ACTUALLY care about women’s rights in Palestine, you’d be advocating for Israel to end their oppression.
Im not silly enough to think that if these abrahamic relgions spread that I will be spared.
But you are silly enough to think that they’re gonna spread and affect you. Right now, they don’t. RIGHT NOW, the Israeli government is continuing it’s apartheid state, oppressing indigenous people.
And because you can’t be assed to look anything up, I’ll copy-paste for you:
Palestinian women’s struggle for gender equality and women’s rights is restricted by two main interrelated forces: the Israeli occupation, and internal patriarchal control. Women activists in Palestine are fighting simultaneously on two fronts for political (national) and social (gender) liberation. They remain sceptical of a feminist agenda that primarily focuses on individual and social gender empowerment and instead insist that gender inequality in their context stems not only from patriarchal oppression, but from poverty, economic dependency, continued political violence, insecurity and instability caused by Israeli occupation, siege and settler-colonial policies. Israeli occupation policies of territorial (and political) fragmentation, spatial separation and mobility restrictions have systematically dispossessed, occupied and destroyed Palestinian living spaces, breaking up Palestinian territory into several unconnected and isolated cantons. Such policies of spatial control have a severe damaging impact on Palestinian economy (Roy, 2004), society, family and kinship organisation (Johnson, 2006), but also on women’s activism. Women are not only divided geographically (between - and within - the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Diaspora), but, more importantly, their contexts and predicaments are widely varying: refugees, West Bank and Gaza ‘citizens’, East Jerusalemites and Palestinians with Israeli citizenship all have different access to rights. This wide variation and fragmentation complicates women activists’ efforts to organise a united agenda. While the specificities of refugees and ‘citizens’ in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem will be drawn out, this note does not cover Palestinian women’s rights and issues of gender equality inside Israel or the Diaspora. Women’s rights in Palestine thus cannot be dealt with in isolation; the impact that the occupation and political conflict have on women’s legal, social, cultural, educational, economic and political status is crucial when looking for possible strategies to empower women. This is not to say that patriarchal structures and cultures are not a major concern for Palestinian women’s activists. To the contrary, it highlights that women’s empowerment in the Palestinian context and their struggle for equal rights is closely linked to their political and economic empowerment which can only be achieved by ending the Israeli occupation.
Bro saying Hamas doesn’t have a ‘perfect track record’ is the biggest understatement. They push towards fundamentalism every chance they get and rose to power through violence.
Palestine≠Hamas.
Palestine is a country/people, Hamas is an extremist religious group that controls a portion of Palestinian territory right now.
Funny how you COMPLETELY IGNORED the source I shared which discussed exactly how that circumstance affects women’s rights. And chose not to speak at all about the ongoing struggle for gender equality or equality for Palestinians. But instead chose to focus on your hatred for an extremist militant organization while equivocating that as representing an entire people who cannot possibly be represented by them due to the very nature of the situation.
Almost like, in all your comments, you were never actually concerned about women’s rights, but were just looking to excuse your bigotry.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Other videos of armed men from Hamas hauling soldiers and civilians into captivity in Gaza have enraged and alarmed Israelis.
Israelis and Palestinians have been focusing on the West Bank, the territory between Jerusalem and the Jordanian border that Israel has occupied since 1967, where there has been almost continuous confrontation and violence throughout the year.
Armed Palestinians, especially those operating out of the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus, have attacked Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers.
Extreme religious nationalists inside Israel’s right-wing government have repeated their claim that the occupied territories, in their entirety, are Jewish land.
During the last week, some Jews have prayed inside the Aqsa Mosque compound, the third holiest place for Muslims after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.
At the heart of the trouble is the intractable and unresolved century-long conflict between Arabs and Jews for control of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the river Jordan.
The original article contains 732 words, the summary contains 155 words. Saved 79%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
GB and the allies said, hey we’ll put you here in Israel since 2000 years ago the Pharaohs made you slaves. Don’t mind the people living here, they’ll just move. They did the same thing with India and Pakistan. I wonder how the animosity between these groups started?
There is zero historical evidence outside the Bible for the enslavement of Jewish people. The Egyptian wrote down everything and there are no mentions of Jewish slaves and certainly no mention of locust, frogs, the Nile turning to blood, or the mass slaughter of children in the middle of the night.
You can’t say that, it’s “impolite”, but it’s true.
Getting down voted but this is factual.
Egyptian slaves were, for the most part, from Africa.
This whole myth comes from a debunked script from the first century CE called Antiquities of the Jews.
Egypt never took slaves from Canaan, the historic site of proto-jews.
Terrorism is not the means to combat this. Murdering and kidnapping civilians is never excusable.
So what is the solution? Rolling over and dying as Israel genocides them in slow-motion while the rest of the world looks on and shrugs? Hamas is a putrid, evil organization, but the Palestinians have no other options. No one gives a shit what’s happening to them.
if you can’t personally negotiate a two state treaty you can’t say that terrorism is wrong.
Okay.
You’re aware that terrorism is how Israel became Israel. Look into proto Israeli bombings of civilian targets.
On 22 July 1946, Irgun bombed the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing[142] of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.[143][144][145] A total of 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.[146] The hotel was the site of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan.
Reason why Netanyahu is such a cunt is because he’s still miffed that he had to miss out on the good old days when his inspirations still bombed left and right
Terrorism to one group is freedom fighting to another.
Freedom fighters don’t gun down civilians at music festivals
disgusting that people defend this because “Israel bad.” get a grip, Hamas would do the same to you if you were in their path.
You’re confusing “defending,” with “explaining”
Anyone who unironically calls this “freedom fighting” is not merely explaining. Not happening in this comment chain but absolutely elsewhere on lemmy and social media
I even largely agree with the claim “Israel bad.” This is not how you get Israel to stop doing the bad things.
This is just totally fucked.
Yeah it has been for decades and decades but suddenly because Israel actually gets hurt for once in like what 60 fucking years it’s a step too far.
When either side has murdered civilians, I have called that side out. Terrorism is not acceptable
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While Britain did make the matters worse but we must not forget that Hindus and Muslims have been at war with each other for a millennium now.
Same for Jews and Muslims.
People also want to indulge in political correctness and give free pass to Islamic scriptures which promotes hatred against Jews and Polytheists (Hindus).
That’s why you’ll find Muslims in Israel and India living largely peacefully but Hindus in Pakistan and Jews in Palestine continue to face atrocities.
In fact Hindus don’t even have freedom of religion in India as many of our sacred Hindu sites were destroyed by Islamic invaders and mosques were built upon them.
Today’s conflict between India and Pakistan is basically Hindus in conflict with ex-Hindus who converted to Islam to escape from Jizya (Islamic tax) and other forms of atrocities.
Another thing that makes India unique is that it has somehow retained some bits of it’s culture even after the repeated Islamic invasions, that’s not the case with other 50 odd Islamic countries. Spain might be the only other exception.
So, these are centuries old conflicts which Britishers exploited well.
Hindus in Pakistan
Lol no. They keep close relations with the army for protection because they’re such a small minority. Meanwhile muslims in India face the stupidity of the BJP and muslims in Israel face the wrath of whosoever turn it is to go raid Al Aqsa again.
Also it wasn’t Britain’s idea to split the country. That was a stance of the Muslims. Britain did exploit the tensions between them to prevent them from rebelling against the British Raj. Then they did a 180 when they no longer had a need to keep India under brutal occupation.
All in all Pakistan and India came out far far better than Israel and Palestine.
Hindus in conflict with ex-Hindus Straight outta r/Chodi lmaooooo
lol you do realise that every pakistani was once a hindu? like literally some Pakistanis have hindu surnames! Pakistanis have hindu surnames like Choudhary, Rajput and Army Cheif also has a Hindu surname “Bajwa”.
The only reason why Pakistanis are Muslims is because their Hindu ancestors surrendered, and couldn’t pay jizya to invading Turks/Arabs.
