Yeah, but because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn’t a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece (you can tell it’s now being pushed as propaganda because it’s been repeated well beyond its newsworthiness and always with the same glamour picture).
The gapping chasm in numbers between those murdered by Israel and those by Hamas is inverted in terms of the disgust they cause in the West exactly because Israeli has a vastly superior propaganda machine.
Thinking people would start wondering why, reliably, 100s of murdered palestinians are portrayed with less emphasys than 1 kidnapped israeli-german teenager.
War is horrible and the granparents of today’s Palestinians were unjustly hunted and hurt. But if Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians and their fighters would not be hiding behind their their own kids and women to protect themselves from retaliation, maybe the fight would take place strictly between combatants or even better, on the social media and internet to show what’s wrong.
And no, it doesn’t matter whether kid is EU, Arabian or any other looking. When there was earthquake not long ago, everyone was sympathetic with middle east looking kids being pulled out of debris.There’s been an earthquake just a few days ago in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, killing more than 2000 people, and by your comment I can see you don’t even know about it.
And I was arguing against Hamas immediately after it happened, but now I’m arguing against Israel because the original comment is right, they have now adjusted all their propaganda tools to use the events to justify ethnic cleansing with lots of civilian dead right now.
Gazan women and children are not responsible for “their fighters” or Hamas, just as Israeli women and children are not responsible for bombs falling on Gaza.
I’m disgusted with both, but proportionally to their strength.
just as Israeli women
They could be part of IDF as military service is mandatory for every israeli whatever the gender (~3y for men and 2y for women).
so don’t speak in term of gender but in term of class.
Strictly speaking, there are very few women in the combat units of the IDF.
But yes, you understood me correctly. I meant civilians.
You missed my point or are trying to twist it.
I have not said that world is informed about everything that happens everywhere all the time. I have said that people feel sad for any hurt kid regardless of colour of their skin and I gave an example which you totally ignored. I could very well blame you for bad things happening to the kids in Mexico or Latin America in general if you aren’t informed about that but that would be stupid wouldn’t it?The feel sad on different levels. For some kinds of sad billions of military aid are warranted, and for other kinds of sad thoughts and prayers, and there are even situations of “sad, but they had it coming”.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
The only reason it’s not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
Absolutely agree. The two sides need to be separated and put in time out.
However disarming Israel is politically impossible when they’re a cyber weapons super power.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! …oh, you’re serious.
I mean they can also just keep bombing and torturing each other for the next 100 years, it’s been working so well so far.
Sadly, as history shows, humans actually keep doing just about that.
Yeah, nobody has quite the strength even for these two sides. First, war is not a linear application of resources, it’s unpredictable. Second, that’d be a precedent every nation with conflicts would try to prevent, and such nations are usually the strongest. Third, we’ve all seen over the years how well UN missions, peacekeepers etc work.
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You think their neighbors are going to attack a multinational UN taskforce? I don’t think you have the right to call anyone ignorant honestly.
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Ofcourse Iran cares about the UN. You think they don’t know what will happen if they blow up a few German or American peacekeepers?
You think Bibi’s policy of concentration camps and mass bombing is going to improve things? It’s worked so well so far.
The arrogance to think anybody would shy away from attacking “a UN taskforce”.
You know, PKs get killed all the time. UN employees get killed. Everybody gets killed.
You think it’s going to be different here? Or you are just ignorant of how this works cause it’s not interesting?
UN is not something which would enforce rules. It’s not built for that, it’s not a world government.
The arrogance of thinking indefinite bombing and killing will get you what you want.
I’m not saying it will be easy, but if the world doesn’t enforce something endless cycle of killing will never stop. Neither side is interested in anything other than extermination now. Not acting will result in some form of genocide. You could say one is already underway.
It’s not about easy or hard, it’s about this not happening cause there’s no force to make it happen.
A foreign military occupation of an entire region in the Middle East to ensure peace.
Does anyone remember how this one goes?
I’ll take standing under a mission accomplished banner on an aircraft carrier for $200.
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Ohh hey we’re just being openly racist to Muslims again? What is it 2002?
It’s all over Lemmy. It’s clearly allowed.
That doesn’t mean ignoring them is the correct answer.
tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here
rephrased…“Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who”. Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.
Two points:
- As her mother is calling for news about her I’ll go with her belief of “not dead” until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - “figurehead” for propaganda. I confess I’m one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly “kidnapped” rather than dead.
- I’m glad you’re beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That’s exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those “other” humans most of whom are blamed by association.
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there’s another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they’re the good guys. 🙄
First, you wrote some incomprehensible bullshit, second, I’m part Jewish.
That sucks that you’re part Jewish and still hate them so much that you go on the internet and support killing them.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
Cutting off power to Palestinians is also a war crime. Why are war crimes only bad when Palestine does them an not when Israel does them 5x as often?
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
Displacement isn’t genocide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
Seems to fit to me.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn’t Google the city “camp” or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is “Israel bad, Hamas good.”
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
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Terrorism is indeed when you kill civilians with no military aim in mind. Invading a country specifically to murder their families in their homes is absolutely terrorism.
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It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
I know what you state, and that’s what you stated.
If that offends you, take a long look in the mirror and sort your life out
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
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Because that’s what I said. It’s like you can’t even try to act in good faith.
The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn’t murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
Got a link?
Sorry for the German link. It’s the most reliable source I could find, tho.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/shani-deutsche-hamas-israel-100.html
tl;dr her aunt says she’s alive in a hospital. No way to verify. Assumption that she’s alive is based on credit card activity.
Assumption that she’s alive is based on credit card activity.
Surely credit card activity isn’t a strong indicator.
Of some bearded terrorist guy going to belly dance clubs in Cairo, surely.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
You know, google for “Anush Apetyan” and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan’s main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and “what are you going to do” on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I’d say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn’t a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece
I can’t help but point out that it wouldn’t and couldn’t have been turned into a propaganda piece if they didn’t post a video of her lifeless body being driven around for people to spit on.
How did the post a video of her lifeless body if she’s still alive?
People don’t seem to believe she’s still alive. She certainly won’t be in a Gaza hospital, already under blockade, about to be deliberately starved and bombed out by the Israeli army.
Unconscious isn’t exactly that much better regardless.
I’d say the almost glee with which that girl’s horror has been exploited by the “propaganda machine” betrays an inhumanity almost to the level of those parading her around.
Her mother still seems to believe she’s alive and is calling for news about her (hence why I went with “kidnapped”, since frankly I don’t know if she’s dead or alive and in the circus that the poor girl’s fate has been turned into, it’s hard to know where truth ends and “conveninent assumptions” start).
I’m disgusted all around by the inhumanity of doing what was done to her and to those in that party and the inhumanity of using that as justification to, with the calous premeditation that was described here, murder innocent people deemed as “other” and hence lesser.
As I wrote elsewhere, I blame the US and to some extent Europe for not really properly fucking up both sides to such an extent that genuine peace was the only viable option: beyond the moral considerations on only going after the weaker side, not forcing the stronger to take the boot out of the necks of those on the weaker side has just created a situation were thousands of young people literally have nothing to lose from joining a terrorist organisation, so it was a massive act of stupidty.
I know you don’t think you are, but you’re really misguided and have been taken in by some messed up propaganda. You’re missing SO much but I get it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now, so it’s kind of easy to just go with the flow.
Two days ago, hundreds of innocent people were ambushed and murdered at a music festival by some Palestinians.
Bro we can skip back two days before that too and all it would show is an exchange basically daily but with a massive disparity of force up to this point.
You’re missing SO much but I get it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now
it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now
Where are you that this is a “popular” stance?
Where are you that this is a “popular” stance?
It gets confusing with the various Lemmy instances.
These people need to go outside and touch grass. The Internet ≠ real life
A terrorist attack, just like telling people to shelter in a specific place and then bombing them is a terrorist attack.
I’m pointing out the vastly different treatment given to terror attacks depending on who did them.
On Principle I’m against treating some murders of civilians as less important or more excusable than other murders of civilians because of the “side” who did the deed, and weaponize for propaganda murders in the same manipulative way as used in marketing to sell shaving cream or fast food.
I’m quite curious about what actual Principle anchors your idea that “judging the killing of people for the purpose of terrifying the rest exactly the same no mater who does it” is “misguided”.
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According to these lemmy POS apologists:
“Revolutions are messy”
I’ll remember that when it’s someone they like getting disemboweled.
It’s just messy hun.
Yeah. They suck. Having your home and life destroyed sucks, it all sucks that’s why people aren’t rushing to do it.
People don’t actually really want to have a revolution as much as they would like things to get better. And if someone is hurt enough they might not care as much. It’s why we say people are still too comfortable to do it.
But this was a cold comment.
Not always, some EU countries went through peaceful revolutions.
Who?
There’s general wiki about nonviolent revolutions link
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From the article’s sub headline: ”Palestinians in Beit Hanoun were instructed by Israeli army to leave their homes and head for city centre. Hours later, the city centre was targeted”
Because Israel is fucking evil. Not Jews. Israel.
Why is Israel evil?
Extensive grooming by America.
Extensive grooming by America.
They got the leader they voted for, that’s on them.
Do Israelis have no agency in your mind?
Boiling it down to the system that has been in place for the last 30-40 years? Yes they do.
They take the money. They take the weapons. They are told to use the weapons. They use the weapons on Palestine.
Here, maybe I won’t get completely eviscerated for this one. Israel is Vader. The US is Palpatine.
Israel was never forced to turn evil, but the US has the carrot and Israel keeps reaching for it.
As a result, they have spent decades torturing and murdering innocent people. Small wonder a resistance formed.
Now flash back to Iraq. America made Osama Bin Laden a national hero. America’s existence is the result of guerrilla warfare. I was taught by American education that America did it first. I know we didn’t.
Anyway, America went into Iraq, helped install Saddam, rewarded Osama for being effective in installing Saddam, then Al Queda started doing things we didn’t like and we got stuck in war with Iraq for decades.
The parallels between America’s involvement with Iraq and America’s involvement with Israel are astounding to me.
Huh? Osama bin Laden was 11 when Saddam Hussein became vice president of Iraq. He was in university when the president resigned and Hussein became president and then was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan during the early years of his rule. Al-Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before the US invasion - and didn’t even exist until a decade after Hussein became president.
I love you.
Let’s start here. You’re a great fact checker.
Osama Bin Laden was celebrated by the Regan administration for uprooting soviet interests in the region, no?
What the actual fuck. Israel does many horrific stuff but this a new low.
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Netanyahu said:" Those Who Attacked Israel Will Remember Israel’s Military Response For ‘Generations’ "
We are going to see some horrific war crimes in the weeks to come. And all of our countries are backing them up. Whole thing is fucked.
It’s sad but not surprising. Israel has a history of electing monsters.
Not how Israeli political system works. Israel has a history of electing monsters with so little support that they have to form a coalition government of other monsters that has so little support in the Knesset that there’s a no-confidence vote, the government collapses, and new elections are called. Terrorism is the A#1 thing that allows Likud to keep getting votes. A#2 is that Palestinians don’t have a track record of bargaining in good faith. Though to be fair, it was the ultra-orthodox that murdered Rabin after the Oslo Accords.
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Wait they’ve done this before? WTF bruh.
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No no I know Israel is horrible that’s not news. I’m specifically talking about giving airstrike warnings with an order to evacuate somewhere and striking the evacuation location. That’s new to my knowledge.
Maybe the Palestinians should just leave?
Maybe the Israelis should since they forced the two state plan by civilian bombing campaigns and outright murder of political and religious leaders who had lived there for generations.
Aside from what others have said: they’re literally not allowed to. They have no freedom of movement whatsoever.
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Ah yes, 100 yr old maps are the definitive authority on who can live where. That’s also why Russia is owed Ukrainian land, right?
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The thing about that is there never was an era where war crimes were punished consistently.
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In fact the modern post-WW2 era is about as good as it gets. And that is indeed not much.
Would you say that only the losers trend to be charged of war crimes. And probably some low-ranking war Victors.
I think generally it’s more akin to your average legal proceedings. The plebs who commit war crimes will face the full extent of the law, but when wealthy entities or nations do it they will often get away with it.
When it comes to charging the losers, even with the Nazis and the Nuremburg trials there was a significant amount of opposition from people within the Allied nations against prosecuting them. Actually, in an article about Ben Ferencz (the guy who worked hardest to make the Nuremburg trials happen) I read about a Nazi tried in the UK, Winston Churchill personally donated towards this Nazi’s defense and then had his execution commuted down to life, then later only ~20 years. By the end of the war Churchill was vehemently against the Soviets and chomping at the bit to invade them, I think this gave him sympathy towards Nazis who had been fighting Soviets. I’ve since been unable to find the guy’s name, though.
The playbook is to just claim its propaganda. The internet is so supersaturated the average person can’t vet it as true or false.
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m
They were told to leave their homes and go to the city Centre. Then the city Centre was bombed.
Hamas are animals. Abducting children and internationals. These last few days have shown they do not deserve sympathy. Watching Palestinians cheer when rockets get launched just proves my point.
They have been horrifically oppressed for decades.
They have lived in constant fight for your life squalor while America keeps siphoning money and weapons to Israel, who, in turn, simply tortures Palestine.
I dont condone it, but I can’t bring myself to fake outrage or surprise.
America caused this.
America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
And at the end of the day, that was the point.
There is another armed conflict for American military contractors to cash in on.
America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
Add to your list that Israel actively funded Hamas in the 90s to take the steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
Your worldview is so fucked up. The reason Israel gets support is because if it didn’t, the surrounding Arab nations would have wiped it out, as they have said multiple times.
It’s like a bully attacks a little kid, and the little kid’s older brother shows up to defend him, and then you saying, “the older brother caused this because he wouldn’t let the bully beat up that little kid!”
You’ve got it all backwards man. Get help.
When the little brother starts slaughtering all of the innocent people who “are totally all bullies” and bombing their homes with impunity for 40 years with virtually no consequence, somewhere over those 40 years, the brothers became the bullies in the neighborhood.
Start using your brain big boy.
Stop regurgitating what Fox tells you to.
If the same kind of pressure being put on Hamas was put on the Israeli authorities, the problem with Palestine would’ve been over long ago, just like Appartheid in South Africa has made to end by international pressure, not because the assholes in power in SA woke up one day and decided to the do the morally right thing.
As long as Israel gets to keep its boot on the necks of Palestinians (worse, activelly helped to do so), there will always be people who are born and grow with nothing to lose for whom even an organisation internationally treated as a terrorist organisation is still a step up.
I totally agree it’s the US who have maintained this situation, and I also want to add Europe, whose leaders have sided with Israel or assumed the kind of “neutrality” that “peace loving” “tankies” assume with regards to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine (i.e. not wanting to help Ukraine).
What are you insinuating?
As far as I know Palestinians have rejected every Offer they have received and only went for the whole destruction of Israel.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Have you seen what was in many of those offers? “How about we only steal this much of your land? How about that?”
I’m gonna take half your house and if you don’t like it I’ll just try to kill you (royal you this is not a threat). On top of that I’m not just taking half your house down the middle. I’m taking the master bathroom, the en-suite, the kitchen, the study… actually I’m taking both bathrooms you can shit in the garage where you sleep from now on, also you can have the shed I guess. But you’re not allowed in the yard so you can’t actually go to the shed, just look at it and know that it’s yours. I promise I won’t store my tools in there when you’re not looking.
What’s that? You want a hose to drink from the garden spigot? No, I’ve decided that it’s in appropriate for you to have your own access to water. You can ask me for a cup when you’re thirsty.
Btw my cousin is moving in next week so you’re gonna have to move your shit to the left side of the garage
Do you know that around 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, and who want jack shit to do with Palestine?
I’m well aware of Arab Israelis, mainly because uniquelly in the World, Israel has separated nationality from citizenship, and has put most rights under citizenship, not nationality.
Israeli Arabs are Israeli nationals with under that country’s system Arab Citizenship, whilst Israeli Jews are Israeli nationals with Jewish Citizenship.
Israel grants different rights to different citizenships, so Israeli Arabs, for example, require authorization to go live in certain places and can legally be kicked out of their houses (as happens quite regularly in the Old City of Jerusalem), unlike Israeli Jews.
Still, it’s better to get the second-class citizen treatment that the State of Israel gives to Israeli Arabs than the treatment it gives to prisioners in Israel’s main prison, Gaza.
If you treat a bunch of people like animals for long enough, what do you think will happen?
So that justifies deliberately targeting civilians? Israel is no better than Hamas.
Yeah, lots of Palestinian music festivals attacked recently, eh?
Cutting off food, water and electricity for 2.3 million people.
I wonder if people notice the irony of Israel recreating the Warsaw ghetto.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Here’s a video (in the article) where the chief palestinian negotiator explains what was offered in 2008. Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
None
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It’s not Palestinian either by that logic.
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So instead you are cheering when civilians on the other side are being killed. Great logic. I hope you feel morally superior and can sleep better at night.
Where did he cheer that Palestinian civilians got killed?
One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk. You don’t use violence as answer.
Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism. Hamas proved with this action they are not worth more than terrorists.
A popular myth, but a myth nonetheless.
In 2014, Israel invaded Gaza and more than 2000 people were killed. Did Israel achieve anything other than radicalising more the local population, I would say no? Violence is never the answer or a recipe for long lasting peace.
Do you think that if Israel was treating Palestinians better and not causing a humanitarian crisis, the support for Hamas would be so strong?
Just for perspective, the Hamas army is around 30.000, while the Gaza strip population is around 2,3 million. So that’s 1.3% while people who depend on humanitarian aid in the Gaza strip are 80% and probably this percentage would increase even further. So that’s 1.7Mln people. Not to mention that 123.000 people have been displaced. Not to mention that they don’t have access to clean drinking water, soon would run out of electricity and gas. So I don’t know for you but my mind has trouble trying to process the scale of this humanitarian catastrophe.
One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk.
Yeah if it was that simple the region would have peace already. Israel has never seriously considered peace as anything than something to avoid. See: How they funded Hamas in the 90s to take steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
Hamas didnt even exist when Israel funded Mosques and Charity work.
You think that’s going to make a difference? People don’t even take a moment to parse that fully 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, that those Arabs didn’t have their land stolen, and that the reason they are in Israel is because they didn’t listen to the propaganda of the Arab League that they needed to flee because Israel was going to kill them all/make it more convenient for the Arab League to kill all the Jews. No one gives a fuck about actual rich history, the role Arabs played in fucking over their own ethnic group time and again, or that the vast majority of Arab Israelis want fuck-all to do with Palestine except occasionally visit extended family members and then GTFO of the corrupt hellhole that is Gaza (while having legit gripes with how the Israeli state operates).
You should look up Benny Morris (an Israeli Zionist historian)'s four-stage analysis of the Palestinian diaspora before saying shit like this.
they didn’t listen to the propaganda of the Arab League that they needed to flee because Israel was going to kill them all
Doesn’t seem like they were wrong…
Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism
So we’re in agreement that this is essentially two terrorist states fighting each other? And the biggest losers in all of this will be the innocent Israeli and Palestinian citizens who just want to live their lives in peace. Meanwhile Hamas and the Israeli state get to go back and forth playing the their sick game of race-to-the-bottom-of-the-morality-barrel trying to blow each other to smithereens.
Yup.
But don’t forget. They are deploying 1 time use type armament, so they are also getting subsidized to keep weapon makers profitable.
If you’re 93 today, then you were about 18 years old when Israel became an autonomous nation (in 1948). Before that time, the Jews in the area were simply terrorists without a state.
You are saying that the post holocaust Jews were terrorists? Wtf?
I was talking about before that, but in general, I’ll just say that whatever the truth is, you should simply accept as the truth. There were certainly refugees from the holocaust who became literal terrorists, and the idea that your faux outrage is more important than truth is repugnant.
Feel terror, make counter terror…
Wait, isn’t this a popular valve game that is about to get a 3?
No Valve game will ever get a 3
I’m glad you know that Israel was formed in 1948 but your grasp on the rest of the history is poor.
Here’s your chance to tell me the real history, then.
I wouldn’t call it a “real” history, just a richer history that leads to a more nuanced understanding of the situation, starting with the Ottoman Empire’s tax reform efforts prior to WWI leading to the fellahin legally conveying their land to town leaders to avoid taxation, the descendants of said leaders considering themselves as landed gentry and who had little connection to the land, in fact most of them were living the high life in Beirut and who were more than happy to sell land to Jews. Or the state of Arab intellectual thought as it transitioned from pan-arabism to regional nationalism. Or the role the Arab League played in manipulating many Palestinians to act against their interests in the leadup to and during the 1948-1949 war (Arabs that ignored the Arab League are now, by and large, Israeli citizens, though they have legit gripes and deserve a fair constitutional government that protects them from the vageries of the volatile Israeli political process). Or how Arab nations allowed/encouraged pogroms to occur against their Jewish residents both before and after the creation of the State of Israel, persecution that (surprise surprise) led Arabic-speaking Jews to flee to the mandate/Israel. I’m NOT saying that Israel did no wrong. I’m just irritated as fuck by Israeli AND Palestinian apologists that ignore the role their side played in making the situation what it is today.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
None
The general take on Lemmy is: it’s okay for Palestinians to become extremists after decades of violence, but for Israelis? no no no sir.
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And Palestine is not? What are you on about? Same Brits who gave Palestine their country, decided to give Jews theirs.
A substantial portion of the 20% of Israel’s population that are Arab Israeli citizens would beg to differ. They have legit gripes with how the State operates, but they want jack shit to do with Palestine.
According to one religious book it is and according to another religious book it isnt.
This argument is boring. depending on how far back in time we go it is or isn’t.Islam is based on Judaism. So it’s Jewish land according to both these books
No, it’s not. Both are based in the middle East and on Abraham, but they differ wildly.
Religion is an ongoing lie.
Not the argument here. Good for you for being atheist but Jews and Muslims aren’t. For them it isn’t just a lie. And their beliefs are under protection of almost every developing country so we also have to take in account that their beliefs in this are valid.
I don’t see any use in them either, but religion is the cause for this 120 year war.
Being contrarian doesn’t solve this.
I tried finding that video - but I cannot find it in the article. Could you provide a link?
I am sorry friend, the video seems to have been removed.
I can offer you a link to the detailed 2008 happenings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process#Israeli–Palestinian_talks_in_2007_and_2008
Look at the Native Americans for an example of a colonized population that accepted the terms of their colonizers.
Still alive???
Also how is it comonization? According to both religions both own the land. One party accepts the other while the other wants to kill all jews because of my god is bigger.
I will never accept antisemitism.
Thank you for being honest and admitting that Israel has not been willing to even come to the table for 18 years
What a wierd take from that information.
Blatant lying from hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest.
Crosspost Comment from another related news article:
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
Yeah Hamas and Israel are both insane, don’t see a solution that doesn’t involve giving Palestine land back and people electing moderate governments, but none of the foreign interests want that and neither do influential domestic factions. The most predictable blowback ever.
Here’s a fun whataboutist comparison: Two countries are currently in the efforts of stealing the territory of their neighbors, one though apartheid regime and slow claims to land, the other through a “military exercise.” Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.” In Israel’s case their civilians are viewed as innocent victims, what is the difference? I think there are some valid differences but it does highlight some hypocrisy. I don’t think any civilian deaths are justified in these conflicts, whether committed by either side.
What Russian civilians are being killed??
Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.”
There’s a detail here that is wrong. “Orcs” is the name that has been given to the occupying Russian soldiers in Ukraine, for obvious reasons. Not civilians.
I don’t really know anything about the situation beyond the 10 minute explainer I watched on youtube.
It’s practically a holy war that’s raged for millennia though - I don’t think there are “solutions”, I think the goal is just to dial back the ferocity of the feud a few notches.
Both sides should start by not doing war crimes.
That 10 minute explainer did you a disservice I think. That holy war concept is a really vague way of describing why there has been conflict in the region for that breadth of time. But it doesnt really address the Israel-Palestinian conflict so much as it provides a smokescreen for the last 100 years of political maneuvers by the various Allied powers of WW1 and WW2 with the British and French first, then America since.
I think all the Palestinians should move to Iran.
Oh yeah? Who is going to pay for that?
Mexico
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“Hey, we took a bunch of your land and we have repeatedly violated our previous agreements not to take more, but hey, take this shitty land in return for a bunch of concessions from your side. We promise that this time we won’t violate our agreement. Promise!”
Another paraphrase: You’re one of two brothers. Shortly after your father’s death, your brother gains access to your elderly father’s bank account and plunders it. You take them to court to seek justice, but the judge is a friend of your sister-in-law. Despite the evidence being overwhelmingly in your favor, the judge rules against you. You appeal to a higher court and the case is pending. Your brother approaches you and offers you 10% of the money but you must sign away your rights to inherit any more of the money and the rest of the estate.
It’s just wild: if you change the context of the narrative, almost any reasonable person would say one party is absolutely the aggressor, but a bunch of propagandists like you have pushed an alternative narrative that the no-critical-thinking crowd eats right up.
It’s almost as if there are good reasons why they haven’t made peace yet. Dare I suggest that those reasons are beyond the fixing skills of internet forum users.
Naah, just kidding. We can fix this.
You’re implying Palestinians are violent by nature. That’s racist as fuck, dude.
Bro Israelis historically were the first to bomb civilian targets, if we’re going to analyze it you have to start before the ottoman empire.
There is no solution where Israel is allowed to continue forcing Palestinians from their homes. But hey, colonizers gotta colonize.
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All I see are people referring to the fact that there are so many comments where people are “praising the attacks,” and “cheering on the slaughter,” yet I haven’t actually seen any. Only comments complaining about them.
I’ve seen people making nuanced points about the realities of the situation there prior to this attack. For maybe 60 years or so. But not a single comment celebrating the attack.
It’s almost as if there’s a coordinated attempt online to frame this situation a certain way, and they are straight up lying about “all of these people cheering the attack on.” Hmmm, wonder why anyone would do that?
We can talk about whataboutism
You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
Oh is that what they were doing at the music festival?
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
All I took from that was “the Arab states told Palestinians that [Israel] would commit genocide” and they were right.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
You got a better solution?
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
I dk man, sounds like a cop out. I’m pretty sure if Israel just stopped doing war crimes hamas would eventually lose support in Palestine.
Laying back and embracing the final solution your proposing just doesn’t seem like the right call.
Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada.
Look at the Israeli terms of the Camp David summit and you’ll get why the Intifada happened. These are terms no self-respecting state would accept.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
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With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely.
OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
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In what world does someone saying “hey you can’t steal my house” justify you to murder them?
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I see a whole lot of the Palestinian supporters cheering on the slaughter of Israeli citizens
Funny, the last guy who claimed this couldn’t produce any evidence, it’s almost like you’re gaslighting.
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I’m talking specifically here on this site. There are attempts to paint anybody critical of Israeli leadership as Hamas-supporting terrorist lovers. If you want to broaden the scope to take in the entire world, sure. What do you think of this?
“RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli police said on Thursday that they were investigating a video that appeared to show young Jewish extremists celebrating the death of a Palestinian toddler in an arson attack last summer.”
Well, this seems like it’s an excellent example of the fundamental difference between Israel and Palestine.
More cynically speaking though, I find it probable that they were sentenced mostly because this became a high profile case. But at least they were.
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Maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll spell it out for you - if you want to look for examples on both sides in the wider world, look and you’ll find them. Once more, I’m talking specifically about comments on this site.
Since Netanyahu and Hamas are the principal belligerents, I say send in a few SEALs to arrest them, and make them do “Hell in a Cell” in the middle of the desert, till they all die of exposure.
I’m aware this won’t happen, but that seems to be the immediate solution here, since as you so rightly pointed out, the leadership on both sides just wants the conflict to continue ad infinitum
They can’t solve this problem themselves. The UN has to step in as per my other comment. The no-state solution.
Except every time the UN attempts to even condemn Israel’s illegal settlements and war crimes, the US vetoes it. Because we have that power for some reason.
Whose army is going to disarm them? You have a lot of faith in the U.N here to not fuck this up even worse than it is now
Worse than deliberately cutting off an entire population’s water supply? As to which army, as always a multinational taskforce. Yes the UN is not perfect but just letting them commit atrocities over and over isn’t exactly working out.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
You just hinted at the start of a possible solution. Israelis need to stop voting for warmongering criminals like Netanyahu who have zero desire to see peace. The people in Gaza? They don’t get to vote.
