Unequivocally a warm crime.
Edit: spelling.
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Same username as someone that sensationally abused everyone at Discuit when they called out them cherry picking single point of view news sources and posting them in inappropriate communities.
Fuck this world. International community of fucking killers protecting Israeli Terrorism.
Humor me. As a third party with no side in the fight, what is the correct response from Israel to the massacre of citizens?
Obviously this isn’t it.
So what is the answer, ignoring anything before the inciting attack from Hamas, from either side, what is the cause effect reaction that you would deem appropriate by Israel?
Israel has occupied Palestinians for 75 years.
That doesn’t answer my question. Nor is it 100% historically accurate.
How historically accurate would you say it is?
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Yeah they didn’t move into someone’s house. They have had a continuous presence in the area since biblical times. There was no country of Palestine. Ever. It was always controlled by someone else. Israel came into being by accepting a deal offered. And the international community accepted them as an independent country state. There was already a civil war between the populations living there once the UN plan was passed. Some people left due to the civil war. British withdrew. Israel formed official. Arab countries attacked saying they’d kill all of the Jews there. They did not. Then they did not again. And again. They did, however, in one form or other expel their Jews to Israel.
Let me try again.
What is the action that you would deem correct and just in response to the attack by Hamas that started this latest series of events?
I do not discount the past, Israel’s culpability in escalation, human rights violations by its military members, and politics that favor them over Palestinians. I do not discount the international error of the two-state solution imposed by external countries.
I am asking, in response to 1400 dead civilians IN THE PRESENT, what any nation’s correct action is as a response. It is easy to decry the current decision, but I have heard little proposals to the contrary of what perfect looks like for an Israeli response.
So, IGNORING WHAT CAME BEFORE THE EVENTS THE ARE CURRENTLY UNFOLDING, what would you have deemed the correct response?
They’ll tell you that israel needs to apologize, keel over and die. or at least take some steps towards loosing it’s capacity for self defense.
I have absolutely no idea what the right course of action would have been. Perhaps holding back on the invasion, and then firing Netanyahu. Then having an actual negotiator in to discuss Gaza / Palestine with the leaders (not Hamas). Maybe giving 1 week to reach an agreement and release hostages, or Israel invades and gloves are off.
The leadership of Gaza is Hamas. Unequivocally.
Hamas was elected to power then pulled the ladder up behind them suspending all future elections.
All officials in the Gaza government are Hamas.
Elections were suspended in the West Bank because there is a real chance Hamas would win an election there today.
This isn’t a case of a tyrannical overlord ruling over the Palestinian people without their consent.
Most supported and still support the organization.
One of the issues is that there are no leaders apart from Hamas in Gaza. It is possible that the majority of the population would want different ones (there is not much evidence of that, but it’s difficult to get that information), but Hamas made sure that there are none.
Negotiating with them would give them reason to take hostages again.
Terrorism definition: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
So if you reward violence with success to political wins, this would give violence a reason to happen more as a tool. This obviously isn’t an answer if you are Israel wanting to prevent your citizen and other nations being killed / violently victimized to force capitulation of your government.
So from their perspective, or any other government of the world, this is a non starter.
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this leaves only two outcomes.
Either be killed by terrorists, or dissolve your entire society and nation state.
Israel would of course not see either of these solutions as options.
I am not being disingenuous, I acknowledged history. I am not blind to the motivations of either party. These latest events were started by choice, when any other action could have been chosen but to behead children in diapers.
According to your answer, the only right act appears to be dissolving their entire country and giving it to the people who kidnapped their people in this latest round of violence. I can’t think this makes sense in any other situation, so it’s can’t here.
Something between doing nothing and what they are doing as middle ground in response has to exist as an option that is acceptable.
If the only option is complete dissolution of a nation state to avoid bloodshed, it is effectively not an option. Propose a solution that isn’t the continued deaths and is not the total dissolution of a nation state, which no nation in earth would agree to.
What exists as an option in response besides these two extremes?
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That seems to be you declining to provide an example of a reasonable response then.
lol Lemmy is completely filled with trash you cannot even get a proper answer to your question. The “free palestine” and “think of the children” faction demands Israel stops defending itself and just roll over and die. They cannot provide a workable solution.
Build a new jewrusalem/jewlandia out in the desert. With blackjack, and hookers. Israel gets 3.8 billion a year just from the US. Hire a fuckin contractor that isn’t a defense contractor for once.
Are you talking about Gaza or the West Bank? Gaza relations were not great but actually stabilizing in recent years until this attack. The West Bank, what most people refer to as Palestine is more complicated because of the three districts established during the 1949 armistice.
Arguably, Hamas attacked now precisely because they don’t want relations between Israel and the Arab world to normalize like they have with Egypt and Jordan.
Did you lift this from my bear analogy the other day? If not, I guess we have eerily similar thought patterns.
what is the cause effect reaction that you would deem appropriate by Israel?
Realize that their strategy for the past 16 years isn’t working, sign a ceasefire, follow it and get started on peace again?
I don’t think there is a correct response or any intelligent response at all, I think we’re just watching a pattern that will repeat until someone finds a way to lasting peace.
But the usual reply is “well Israel is oppressing Palestine (so they actually struck first/it’s justified)”
There is no ‘proper response’, as Israel existing is the reason for the conflict.
Isreal’s proper response was to call them terrorists, garner international support, and continue their genocide against Palestinians.
This didn’t answer my question.
Unfortunately, they did with the comment that Israel shouldn’t exist. They are an anti-semite who doesn’t believe the millions of Jewish people who lived in the pre 1948 Palestine deserve a place to live.
When the Jewish state was formed by the UN, five Arab armies invaded, and since that time most of Israel’s neighbors have expressly stated that they want to destroy Israel. Only Egypt and Jordan have recognized their borders, and that was after losing during the 6 day war when Egypt once again threatened Israels existence by cutting off the tiran Straits. When the borders were recognized, Israel returned land they seized during the conflict to Egypt, namely the Sinai peninsula. Twenty some years later, Jordan followed suit.
The remaining neighbors have ceaselessly saber rattled, attacked, and conducted terrorist acts. Just today a Hezbollah general stated that this was a war of existence; either Israel exists or the Arab alliance exists.
Which isn’t to say that I condone the settlers in the West Bank, and other things that Israel has done. But they are a small nation surrounded by religious states that want them destroyed. Back in 2006 Israel learned that disproportionate response is the only thing that seems to work, when Hezbollah attacked and Israel responded with 30 days of shelling Beirut, leaving the Hezbollah leader to infamously say they wouldn’t have attacked if they knew the response would be so drastic.
So I’m all for holding Israel to international standards of warfare. But people who say that “Israel existing is the reason for the conflict” can bugger off as far as I care since they are either an anti-semite, pandering to religious states, or desperately ignorant of world history.
Long story short, there is no proper response besides dissolving the country and leaving. The Israeli government is incentivized to wipe out Palestinians, and whatever decisions they make are to that end.
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If the only proper response is discontinued existence, then you have left no possible response.
The air strike is in dispute, HAMAS claims Israel, Israel claims HAMAS was responsible.
A little too soon to be jumping to conclusions and I would recommend everyone practice skepticism and patience, especially with reporting is coming from extremely biased sources like al-Jazeera, or official spokespersons.
People are suffering through this from every side, and it’s just so disgusting and frustrating that people are so quick to leverage the suffering of anyone in their own pointless bias confirmations. Especially so when those individuals have no ties at all to any of this and are vastly ignorant of the political/military complexities involved here.
Propaganda is designed specifically to illicit emotional reactions… So, “Don’t react, wait for facts!”
This is a footage of the strike. Missile no doubt’s. https://piped.video/shorts/cCSugJpGdO4
Looks like the video got taken down.
Works for me
Fails to play for me as well. Not sure if anyone is willing to describe why they believe this is a missle and not a rocket, but would appreciate it.
It actually sounds like a JDAM which is a bomb, not a missile. Here’s what a JDAM sounds like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_uwzugvv-g
And here’s the YouTube link to the video above since the Piped version seems to be acting flaky:
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=A_uwzugvv-g
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=cCSugJpGdO4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I really hope this proof comes.
Unfortunately, it won’t change a thing either way… HAMAS and Israel are now at war, and collateral loss of life is a cold horrible and tragic reality.
Let me tell you what I do know…
Four weeks ago I was in Tel Aviv smoking shisha with both Israelis and Arabs. It was a great night.
No one but HAMAS wanted this conflict…
Wow, a downvote. Proof-haters here?
I think maybe we shouldn’t get riled up over a downvote dude.
No. Hamas claims it was Israel. Israel claims it was PIJ.
Israelis are liars. The facade has crumbled. The charade is over. Nobody believes them.
They both equally suck, bud.
Doesn’t Hamas regularly shoot rockets from hospitals and schools?
Tough to occupy the moral high ground when you’re using citizens as meat shields.
It’s been an extraordinary well documented tactic of the HAMAS… they teach children their highest calling they can achieve in life is to take the lives of Israelis through suicide attacks and to kill as many Israelis that they can by any violent means necessary. They push military caches into schools and hospitals that force civilian men, women, and children to risk their lives in order to gain access to essential humanitarian services which are already extremely limited. HAMAS literally will hold their own palestinians hostage in buildings that Israel intends to attack in order to intentionally maximize the civilian casualties.
They rape and torture their prisoners. They murder homosexuals.
All while constantly bombarding Israelis with rockets in order to force defensive counterstrikes from Israel. Randomly stabbing men, women, and children on the street with essentially no provocation.
https://youtu.be/VEcaI7zQG3E?si=g7UIh04AqtRHl0n3
Hamas’ use of human shields in Gaza - NATO StratCom https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Palestinian leadership was literally aligned and allied to the Nazi party during WW2.
So in truth, it’s not just tough to hold a moral high ground… It’s impossible when there is not even the faintest glimmer of conceptualizing what morality even is.
HAMAS must be excoriated from the face of the planet and never allowed to reoccur again. For the peace and stability of the Palestinian people and for the world.
Palestinian leadership was literally aligned and allied to the Nazi party during WW2.
This is a gross oversimplification, and a direct response to the anti-colonial sentiment of the middle east during the WWI - WWII era. They aligned with the Axis powers because they wanted independence, mostly from England & France.
You are just sloppily shoe horning this historical “gotcha” without explaining any of the context in order to justify your subjective perspective about contemporary issues.
You know what you are doing is trying to frame Palestinians as Nazi sympathizers in order to win the emotional propaganda war.
I provided data specifically to that point to allow anyone to read further… Looks like you skipped that step. You also skipped over the fact that I was specifically talking about the Palestinian leadership of that era, which I purposefully and intentionally differentiate from the Palestinian population as a whole. Most of the general population of Israelis and Palestinians are sick of the conflicts their leadership continuously escalate and in general, both sides would prefer to seek long term peace.
You claim that I’m framing with our context… but it would appear you completely skipped the context provided and reframed critical components of the data that was provided to fit your own bias.
Here’s some other interesting historical context from another poster @chaogomu regarding the inter-war and post war period as well as Netanyahu’s ties to what can best be described as the Jewish ultra-nationalist / supremacist organization Lehi. I take no credit for this information, but felt it was important to add to this discussion.
Netanyahu’s political party, the Likud, were partially founded by members of Lehi. Including the first Likud Prime Minister.
Lehi was a Zionist Terrorist organization in Mandatory Palestine. Their main operations were political assassinations of any leader who supported the British, or opposed their ideal of a Jewish ethno-state. This included Jewish and Palestinian leaders.
They also took part in a few massacres of Palestinians, including raping women before killing them.
But the meat of this tangent is what they did during WW2. See, they really hated the British. So much so that they made multiple overtures to join WW2 on the side of the Nazis. They kept trying to join in until 1942. (and only stopped when the founder of Lehi died)
Here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia talking about Lehi;
According to Yaacov Shavit, professor at the Department of Jewish History, Tel Aviv University, articles in Lehi publications contained references to a Jewish “master race”, contrasting the Jews with Arabs who were seen as a “nation of slaves”.[47] Sasha Polakow-Suransky writes that “Lehi was also unabashedly racist towards Arabs. Their publications described Jews as a master race and Arabs as a slave race.” Lehi advocated mass expulsion of all Arabs from Palestine and Transjordan,[48] or even their physical annihilation.[49]
Netanyahu’s early political career was directly mentored by former members of Lehi. It’s why he sabotaged the peace talks in the 90s.
Link to @chaogomu’s original comment:
https://kbin.social/m/world@lemmy.world/t/548452/-/comment/3024238For what it is worth, today Netanyahu is exceptionally unpopular among more secular Israelis.
Additionally Lehi, is only one example of Israelis organizations that have committed terroristic atrocities against Palestine over the years. The Kach, and later Kahane Chai are examples of Israeli terrorist organizations with similar objectives as well… At least they were, until the Biden administration decided to remove their terrorist designation last year. The Jewish Defense League which committed attacks against Americans in the 80’s is another.
Plenty of awful in the world to go around…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/VEcaI7zQG3E?si=g7UIh04AqtRHl0n3
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That is not an excuse to hit the civilians, even if it were true.
The reason they do it is they KNOW it affords them protection because of the way Israel operates.
Now imagine the situation reversed. Hamas wouldn’t believe their luck.
Edit: I also just remembered that according to US ROEs, a hospital can become a valid target if it is sheltering combatants who are actively attacking.
I have no idea what Israel’s rules are but I think the above is a morally defensible position.
Judging by what they shout on the street, their rules are “kill them all” and “death to all Palestinians”. Oh, and “this is my house now”.
In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
Just learned about this during the recent conflict. Are they still on/in Palestinian land?
Kind of a loaded question; no matter the answer someone will get pissed off. Israel keeps getting bigger, Palestine gets smaller. Those settlements in particular? Probably not.
It is literally an excuse because it makes it no longer a war crime to hit those facilities
Legality != Morality
“Just following orders” is also immoral, also not an excuse for murder.
Lucky for us armchair experts, Hamas is the pillar of truth, so we can completely trust and believe their non-confirmed claim that Israel bombed the hospital
Interesting timeline of events. Right after the hospital was hit, the IDF twitter account stated that it had taken out a Hamas weapons point and then an Israeli Air Force member started bragging about blowing up the hospital.
Then, within thirty minutes, both of those tweets were deleted and the Israel Twitter account said they were “looking into the incident”.
And then, two hours later, they started claiming Hamas was responsible.
Could you provide a link or source on those deleted tweets? I can’t find anything online.
I’m looking for a good link to give. The problem is that they’re all going to be screenshots, since the original tweets were deleted. And obviously the reliability of screenshots can always be questioned.
For now, here’s a tweet from the former digital manager for Netanyahu. He claimed afterwards that he just assumed it was Israel and was happy about it because of that?
As a separate thing, the official Israel account also posted a video that it then deleted claiming it was the rockets from a terrorist group, but people noted the timestamps were almost an hour before the hospital was hit. That video is still being wildly circulated as evidence
Thank you for this, much appreciated!
I could believe that the first tweet was real, even if “terrorist base inside a hospital” doesn’t sound to me like something a PR person would say.
But the 2nd deleted tweet, the one in Arabic - either that translation is way off or I think it’s fake. “We know you didn’t have enough hospital supplies so we decided to euthanize you” is too perfectly evil. That translation at least just sounds like something only a propagandist would actually say.
Oh, the Facebook image was found to be fake, yes, or more specifically someone pretending to be an official Israeli department on Facebook. I was just discussing the video in that one, not the Facebook image.
Oh, great to have that confirmed as fake. Yep, I was just referring to the tweets from your first link. I’m gonna take your word on the video part, and appreciate the info - even if it’s tame combat footage is not for me.
They’re potentially referring to this?
I haven’t verified it.
Israeli Air Force member started bragging about blowing up the hospital.
its all over twitter, the Israeli’s did it and took credit for it.
