Newsweek
Well, this jewish, israeli (born, raised, and educated) holocaust professor, with decades of experience and many titles under his belt acquired specifically in the field of genocide and the Holocaust hasn’t seen what the armchair historians on the internet have to say.
historian says
Can we please stop using these nonsensical claims? What historian? A Reddit armchair hero? Can you please get an actual known historian with a name?
Having said that, Israel has been committing genocidal acts for decades now. What Hamas did is awful and despicable, but it’s a proverbial bloody nose they dealt to Israel in comparison.
Religious extremism in Israel is to blame for this, IMHO. They claim that their gods says it’s okay that they steal houses, the Israeli government acts as if it doesn’t happen. Palestinians then protest this, get arrested, tortured or shot. Kids throw stones, get shot. Israëli government acts as if their nose bleeds.
Then they hit back hard, and now their nose IS bleeding and everybody is “poor Israelis”
No. I feel for the families that have their loved ones killed and kidnapped, I do, and Hamas must be stopped. However, we can’t simply blame Hamas and completely ignore what Israel is doing right now and more importantly, what it’s been doing for the past 60 years.
It. Has. To. Stop.
I somewhat agree, but, maybe read the article.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University.[1] He has written multiple books about the Holocaust in Carpathian Ruthenia.
**That ** historian.
Gazan population doubles in 2 decades: help! There’s a genocide!
What the jews got was the purposeful death of innocent civilians. Just watch jewish numbers in the world before and after WW2. What gazans get is a war. Yes, civilians die in wars, and that’s an awful thing. Israel should’ve done everything to prevent this war, but didn’t. Bibi has a lot to answer.
But comparing the Holocaust to gaza is just absurd. You can take a side in a conflict without baseless accusations, Israel has already a lot to answer to. But purposefully killing civilians? We’ve yet to see that from Israel, only from Hamas…
The Jewish population also increased in the ghettos before the Nazis decided to clear the Ghettos. Maybe you should go read the UN definition of genocide before saying stupid shit?
increased in the ghettos
Source? That sounds like an interesting read
Either way tho, that wasn’t my main point. My main point is that Israel is fighting a war against Palestinian leaders, not killing civilians needlessly. And that’s a nuance that’s not addressed in this article, or in most pro-palestinian text I read.
An Israeli historian and Holocaust scholar
Are you an expert? He is.
Nah, I’m just some dude with an opinion on the internet. I think that every country should have a right for proper defense, and proper safety for its citizens. And that includes Palestinians. But to think that the source for that defense should be Israel who are suffering their own casualties is not fair by the world. And Israel tbh is doing the bare minimum in Gaza (up until 2 weeks ago) which is definitely not good, but not as awful as a genocide.
After the events of Saturday tho, I can’t blame them for stopping that bare minimum of protection. They’re at war and can’t enjoy that luxury.
sure give as many weapons as you can to a government and people who are not ashamed and have proven over and over and over again that they can and will attack Israel and its citizens. I think the only solution here is to take them out of the land or make them all Israelis so they wont want to destroy themselves, but there’s not guarantee of that. The problem is very much with the government of the PLO and Hamas and the people should be given a choice to choose and alternatives Israel has never addresed reperations for palesitnians who lost their land during the 3 big wars. Of course, they dont need to do this, but will be a gesture of peace and reconciliation. On the other hand, this is literally what foreign aid is to the palestinians and that is why the receive and look what they have done with it. A people who continue to make stupid decisions and abuse their own people are not capable of leading themselves, literally.
100% agree. And with how right wing the Israel government is right now, there’s no way they’ll address reparations for Palestinians anytime soon (the country already was going right, now after the Hamas attack you can bet more right wing aprties will take more power in Israel).
Israel needs to get themselves together and work towards peace, with the rest of the world’s back as insurance of Palestinians not doing dumb stuff (which meanwhile is the only thing Palestinian leaders did).
Definitely not an expert.
Well, looks like neither are the world leaders, since they go towards my way of looking at things (allowing Israel to defend itself, while not being simultaneously humane and giving food/water/electricity to their enemies).
Extermination is first stage 9 out of 10 of Stantons 10 stages of genocide. And as the article also points out, extermination is only one approach to genocide, and not required to meet the UN definition.
That you conflate genocide with inherently requires mass murder just demonstrates that you don’t know what genocide is.
Maybe you should actually read and try to understand the article.
I see that genocide is not just murdering innocent, but still there’s a lost nuance in this article that Israel is only addressing the Palestinian leaders (Hamas), not the Palestinian population as a whole.
That’s a very huge distinction, since jews in the Holocaust were just regular citizens in a country, without a murderous leadership. Palestinians are different in that regard - they have a terrorist organization running their territory, and no one but Israel can/will do anything about that. No one is considering how good Gazans could’ve lived if their leaders weren’t terrorists.
And nobody can fight a terrorist organization without civilian casualties. That’s war. Calling it a genocide is in my eyes dishonest to actual genocides where innocent people are being called animals and pillaged and slaughtered. Palestinians are poor people, but there’s definitely not only one aggressor against them.
but still there’s a lost nuance in this article that Israel is only addressing the Palestinian leaders (Hamas), not the Palestinian population as a whole.
Sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit and shows you trying to justify Israels actions in a way not even Israels own government does.
That’s a very huge distinction, since jews in the Holocaust were just regular citizens in a country, without a murderous leadership. Palestinians are different in that regard - they have a terrorist organization running their territory, and no one but Israel can/will do anything about that. No one is considering how good Gazans could’ve lived if their leaders weren’t terrorists.
If Israel was actually only narrowly targeting Hamas, then that’d be great. Polls shows most people in Gaza would prefer the PA control Gaza too. I’ve posted links and images of those polls several times. But the idea that is all Israel is doing is pure fiction.
And nobody can fight a terrorist organization without civilian casualties.
Nobody is asking for that. People are asking for them to not engage in genocide. People have also been asking them - for many decades - to stop engaging in Apartheid and other brutally war crimes and human rights violations. Hamas only exists in the first place because of Israeli oppression and because Israeli encouraged opposition to Fatah. The violence of Hamas against both Israel and the Palestinian population is also part of Israels responsibility. They brought it on, and they therefore has a special responsibility to not worsen the situation even further through even more harm against civilians who have done nothing wrong and who have all been victims of Israel their whole lives, and a large proportion have also been victims of Hamas their whole lives.
Calling it a genocide is in my eyes dishonest to actual genocides where innocent people are being called animals and pillaged and slaughtered.
Denying the evidence for what Israel is engaging in is vile and dishonest against the Palestinian population.
Palestinians are poor people, but there’s definitely not only one aggressor against them.
That is true. But they’re not helped by apologists for the brutally oppressive Israeli apartheid regime.
trying to justify Israels actions
I mean, their current actions are tbh pretty justified. They have 200 innocent kidnapped civilians. And I have yet to see the Israeli government officially target Palestinian people in their attacks, physical or verbal. All of their aggression is focused on Hamas.
And about Israel not narrowly targeting Hamas - idk what to tell you… I legit don’t hear of any attacks Israel does without there being a Hamas HQ/Storehouse (and even when they’re a legit target, they alert people to evacuate beforehand… What other country in the world does this to their enemies???). Maybe I don’t look hard enough, but from what I can see they legit only target places with arsenal value for Hamas.
People are asking for them to not engage in genocide
And again I stress, I don’t see them targeting Palestinian civilians. Not in their attacks, not in their language. Plenty of Palestinian civilian die, but Israel is less responsible for them than Hamas is - and I see plenty of accusation towards Israel, not towards Hama - which are the main cause for Gazans’ suffering.
stop engaging in Apartheid
Context. I agree about the Apartheid in some some parts (West Bank) but there’s so much nuance there that’s it’s hard to actually define as Apartheid - they’re not actual citizens and they have their own government (PA). Their government doesn’t do much, and they’re under Israeli power - but neither Israelis nor Palestinians consider Palestinians as Israelis - so naming it Apartheid is just not accurate. They’re just a different people.
Denying the evidence for what Israel is engaging in
Nobody denies what they’re doing - I just give them a break considering they’re fighting a war against an organization who benefits from civilian casualties (on both sides…). And no other country in the world is facing that kind of challenge. Maybe consider what they practically could do to keep their security. If they don’t strike hard now - their enemies (pretty much all of their neighbors - another issue they alone face) will all take advantage of and kill them.
not helped by apologists for the brutally oppressive Israeli apartheid regime
They’re also not helped by “woke” distortion of reality which makes the Israeli people only support their right wing government more against the world who very verbosely stick their nose in a conflict thousands of kms away, taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
The violence of Hamas against both Israel and the Palestinian population is also part of Israels responsibility
I actually agree to that. Israel('s government) was comfortable having a terrorist organization being the face of Gazans making them easily hateable. And that led to the horrible deaths of civilians on both sides. The Israeli government have a part in this - smaller than Hamas - but definitely a part which they should answer for. I just don’t see protesting against their response now is helping anything - now they should and they do wipe Hamas out entirely - something they needed to do years ago.
Peace is now impossible between Israel and Gazans directly. Without a third party (heavily) involved, nothing could be done now to correct those relations. Maybe Egypt will step up to it, but they’re also have a bias in this conflict, and even an incentive for it to go on. So I doubt anything real will happen.
I mean, their current actions are tbh pretty justified.
Terrorising the civilian population makes them no better than Hamas, and that you seek to justify their brutality is quite telling.
They have 200 innocent kidnapped civilians. And I have yet to see the Israeli government officially target Palestinian people in their attacks, physical or verbal. All of their aggression is focused on Hamas.
Very few brutal oppressors officially target civilians. The notion that it’s not official policy is the excuse of apologists for brutally oppressive regimes everywhere.
I legit don’t hear of any attacks Israel does without there being a Hamas HQ/Storehouse (and even when they’re a legit target, they alert people to evacuate beforehand…
Of course. Nobody is going to carry out an attack and go “of course we intended to murder innocent people, and knowingly committed war crimes”, so that will always be the story. And given that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, you can randomly and indiscriminately attack and then retroactively find some excuse. That they keep ending up with dead civilians shows
Context. I agree about the Apartheid in some some parts (West Bank) but there’s so much nuance there that’s it’s hard to actually define as Apartheid - they’re not actual citizens and they have their own government (PA). Their government doesn’t do much, and they’re under Israeli power -
This is only hard to people who haven’t bothered looking, and who are wildly unaware of the characteristics of apartheid.
This was exactly the point of the use of Bantustans in South Africa too: To try to write off responsibility by pretending that they had “independence”, even though South African controlled essential aspects such as borders.
Ever heard of the “states” Transkei? KwaZulu? Ciskei? There were many more. They were “states” created in a way that allowed the South African regime to try to pretend that the suffering and oppression they forced on the population was not their fault, because they were nominally “independent”. Many of the leaderships of these bantustans took on the role willingly - a means for personal power - some took up with some level of protest. E.g. Buthelezi, who led Inkatha and “ruled” KwaZulu refused to accept the pretend independence offered in part because the territory was inherently unviable.
What all of these “countries” had in common was that their bordered were unilaterally dictated by South Africa, and their level of territorial control was unilaterally dictated by South Africa, and so on, just like Israel has dictated the level of territorial control of the West Bank and Gaza and hollowed out whichever pieces they wanted. Many of the bantustans were used as excuses for “resettling” populations in supposed “homelands” and denying claims to other land the same way Palestinians have been systematically pushed into smaller and smaller areas and given some notional control over what is left.
but neither Israelis nor Palestinians consider Palestinians as Israelis - so naming it Apartheid is just not accurate. They’re just a different people.
KwaZulu was a “homeland” for the Zulu people. Ciskei and Transkei were “homelands” for the Xhosa people.
Ovamboland was a “homeland” for the Ovambo people in Namibia, so not even part of South Africa. Damaraland for the Damara people, also in Namibia. Hereroland for the Hereros, also in Namibia.
Like Israel, South Africa also occupied and controlled territories outside their own national boundaries where they, like Israel, unilaterally decided on borders for territories allowed to self govern.
So even if on were to accept your notion that the fact Palestinians and Israelis agree that they are not Israeli, there were still numerous Bantustans in the same situation: Populations that did not consider themselves part of either the same people or the same nation as South Africa, and which were still a core part of the bantustan system.
That you use this as an excuse for dismissing the accusation of Apartheid makes it clear you don’t understand what Apartheid was. Because Apartheid was far more varied than “just” the headline racism and the most in-your-face segregation.
I suggest this article. It’s old, but it’s good particularly because one of the main people mentioned in the article, Arthur Goldreich, was a hero of the Apartheid struggle, a Jewish South African who helped hide Mandela. He was also a fighter in Palmach in the 1940’s, fighting to make Israel a reality. After fleeing South African prison, he settled in Israel again in the 1960’s. I’ll quote a few paragraphs:
As it is, Goldreich sees Israel as closer to the white regime he fought against and modern South Africa as providing the model. Israeli governments, he says, ultimately proved more interested in territory than peace, and along the way Zionism mutated.
Goldreich speaks of the “bantustanism we see through a policy of occupation and separation”, the “abhorrent” racism in Israeli society all the way up to cabinet ministers who advocate the forced removal of Arabs, and “the brutality and inhumanity of what is imposed on the people of the occupied territories of Palestine”.
“Don’t you find it horrendous that this people and this state, which only came into existence because of the defeat of fascism and nazism in Europe, and in the conflict six million Jews paid with their lives for no other reason than that they were Jews, is it not abhorrent that in this place there are people who can say these things and do these things?” he asks.
These are the words of someone who lived decades in South Africa under Apartheid, and then decades in Israel under Apartheid, and who fought against South Africa, and who fought for Israel. This was 2006. Things have gotten far worse since then.
Nobody denies what they’re doing - I just give them a break considering they’re fighting a war against an organization who benefits from civilian casualties (on both sides…).
This is actually worse. If you acknowledge what they’re doing (despite your attempts to whitewash it above), then you’re giving oppressors engaged in gross human rights abuses a break while not giving the oppressed civilian population who are also opposed to Hamas and of whom the vast majority are innocent a break.
They’re also not helped by “woke” distortion of reality which makes the Israeli people only support their right wing government more against the world who very verbosely stick their nose in a conflict thousands of kms away, taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
“Your criticism forced us to align with far-right extremist mass murderers” is never a valid argument. Everyone should stick their noses in when a country keeps electing governments that commits crimes against humanity on a regular basis, just like people eventually did against South African apartheid. If “woke” now means “has basic human decency”, then anyone who isn’t woke is scum.
People used your argument to try to shield the South African apartheid regime against criticism too, and it was just as nasty apologism then as it is now.
taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
Anyone who believes supporting Palestinians has been “the easy way” is either a child or have not paid attention to the political climate for support for Palestinians over a period of many decades. It’s ahistorical and a nasty distortion.
Terrorising the civilian population makes them no better than Hamas
Do you know what terrorism even means when saying that? Israel isn’t trying to incite fear (terror) in Palestinian lives, they do literally everything they can to fight in a region infested with (actual) terrorists (people wanting to incite terror in another group), which is really hard considering they hide among civilians.
Very few brutal oppressors officially target civilians
Well I certainly can’t remember examples of such, and I legit don’t feel like Israel’s statements are racist towards a whole people. I don’t know if it’s apologistic or whatever, it’s just a fact. I don’t try to look for signs of stuff that aren’t there. There are many arab/jewish settlements, and they live peacefully with one another. The only ones Israel is condemning are people who are after the country’s demise. And I don’t see that as oppression, it’s legit.
you can randomly and indiscriminately attack and then retroactively find some excuse
Is that a fact they did or is it out of a tin foil hat? Palestinians ending up with dead civilians is a sad obvious fact of the nature of the land. Does anybody expect Israel to not respond to rockets launched on their civilian territories? And when Hamas hides their rocket launchers in cemeteries and residential buildings, yes, civilian infrastructure will be destroyed. But that’s not on Israel, and asking them to stop their bombings of Hamas infrastructure because it’s hidden between civilian one - is delusional, or is a support of Hamas activity.
About the apartheid part, again, I largely agree. West bank treatment is and should be condemned. But again, you have a bit of a different story here, where Israel is facing an aggressive leadership, which is capable and is actively supporting terrorist activity. Yes, it’s an unfair treatment and should be condemned and shouldn’t be excused. But at the same time Palestinian behavior should be condemned and not excused, as it is blatant terrorism, bombing busses and lynching civilians.
Everyone should stick their noses in when a country keeps electing governments that commit war crimes
How many people protest over Israel’s actions vs Hamas’s actions? How many people protest over north korea? Over
China? I agree right wing governments should be condemned but what Israel is getting is so much more than that. Heck, even Israel’s neighbors are getting less shit for their much more blatant human rights abuses (much more blatant because it’s against their own citizens + with no complex background like Israel).
And what I meant about supporting the Palestinian side being easier was about the public conversation and about the media coverage. Of course it’s easier to take their side since the media is taking the side of the underdog - pretty much always. And in western civilized states, the media has influence on the people.
In general I don’t think Israel is in the clear at all. They funded Hamas’s rule, ignoring their extremist nature for years, only acting now when it’s too late to do anything peacefully. They’re very much a part of why there’s no peace, but they’re not as much a part of why civilians are killed. Murder comes to Israel, not from Israel. I just blame in part the rest of the “united” arab world, for always condemning Israel’s actions yet, a) doing peace treaties with them, allowing them to keep their wrongdoings. And b) not actually doing anything to support their arab brothers in Palestine. Sending empty words of solidarity isn’t helping poor civilians. Keeping all the blame on Israel for an unsolvable situation is just wrong and doesn’t help anyone.
I don’t think he’s calling the last two decades genocide, but he is calling the last two weeks genocide. The language is genocidal, refusing to allow Palestinians a way to escape is murderous, and the limited aid coming from Egypt won’t be enough to keep Palestinians afloat. If kept up, the blockade of necessary resources will kill more people in the coming months than the air strikes ever could.
I agree the past 2 weeks are inhumane against Palestinians, but blaming it entirely on Israel is dishonest given they still have civilians kidnapped and probably tortured (not based on a tin foil hat, based on the bodies of dead Israelis).
I do believe they’ll let help come from Egypt before it gets catastrophic, because they also don’t want a humanitarian disaster to happen. That’ll only move more people towards Hamas, which is of course against their interests.
And about the language - not once have I heard an Israeli official calling the Palestinian people animals - only their leadership (which let’s face it - they are animals). And because Israel is a free state, and part of the free world, they’ll get backlash for saying anything of that nature. I just don’t think we’ll even come to that - since Israel just doesn’t wanna involve itself with Gaza at all besides destroying Hamas.
Egypt closed the border indefinitely. So no, there will be no help coming from Egypt “before it gets catastrophic”. The reason for that is that Israel shelled the border again. Article here
Hamas is the foster child of Netanyahu and his ilk. They have been funding Hamas for a long time because it keeps the Palestinian Authority down. Article here
That’s news from 10 days ago, just search “rafah crossing” and see that aid is being pushed through right now. Because of course it is.
And yeah, the Israeli right wing government is stupid in fostering Hamas, since it suited his needs of having no peace talks with Palestinians. Bibi is corrupt to the bone, and maybe the only good thing from this situation is his demise from power. Maybe that’ll allow actual good policies to pass through.
I didn’t blame Israel for Hamas killing civilians, I blamed them for letting hamas get so powerful that they could execute such a devastating attack.
Israel does not care about pushing civilians towards Hamas, as they have mostly done just that for the last few decades. They refused to support more moderate Palestinians forces, instead causing economic hardship for all Palestinians, while stealing territory from the West Bank where Hamas has less power. If they didn’t want a humanitarian crisis, they wouldn’t have blockaded essential resources. They demanded over a million people evacuate from half of Gaza in 24 hours, something that would be nearly impossible in even wealthy countries with functioning governments. Even if Gaza had a government willing to move those people, the request would still be impossible.
When the government originally said they were “fighting animals,” they did not specify Hamas. In fact, they were telling all Palestinians that they would be cut off from essentials. Bibi and his allies have been trying their hardest to make Israel a less free country, an explicit Jewish theocracy. The idea that the “free world,” would speak up is laughable when fascist parties are serious threats in every liberal democracy. The Republicans in the US have been even more explicitly genocidal against Palestinians than Israel’s government, dehumanizing all Muslims and inspiring hate crimes. It’s nothing new as they have been demanding trans people be banned from public life for the last few years. Most Democrats refuse to speak up enough, as they value their middle eastern ally way too much. The right wing in Israel want to steal Palestinian land and force the people into exile, as they have no sense of irony.
I agree about Israeli goverment being way too right wing, trying to take more Palestinian land. That just sucks, and it’s a worldwide trend of countries becoming less liberal.
And yeah Israel 100% messed up horribly about letting Hamas being so powerful. Bibi has so much to answer to and by his character he won’t and blame it on others.
And about the humanitarian crisis - let’s be real - nobody expected Gazans to clear the northen part in 24 hours - the IDF itself issued more warnings after that initial 24 hour one because of course they did - it’s ridiculous thinking otherwise. It’s been almost a week since then and they still haven’t invaded - plenty of time for evacuation. And blocking of resources is also over with Rafah crossing (about Israel’s support of food/water/electricity - it’s understandable why they don’t wanna spend their money giving them that right now…)
And about Israel not supporting more moderate Palestinian forces, I don’t know about that… The last time Israel supported the PA was the Oslo Accords which is wildly regarded in Israel as a good step for peace, and a very bad move for Israeli security - the second intifada has definitely been more deadly because of it.
But even after all of that - that’s just the current government - and unlike Hamas, they don’t control the whole state. There’s an opposition, there’s a separate military, a separate court… The extremists don’t have all the power. And hopefully after those events Israelis will realize they’re a danger not only to Palestinians, but for Israelis.
And there’s also genocide apologists like you
Could you enlighten me on what I said that wasn’t correct? Instead of throwing titles how about actually explaining your case?
Nobody owes you a “debate”. Thats what people like you always want, to waste peoples time dragging them into a pointless “debate” where you had no intention of arguing in good faith from the start. Its why the best way to deal with scum like you is to just tell you to fuck off, block you and then let you cry into the void about people not “debating” you.
No man, no one owes me anything, I just asked if you had anything better to say than just calling names which is just destructive. So yeah, I agree about the blocking part of me not wanting anything to do with someone who can’t even hear opinions who are contrary to his own, and just name calling them.
