But F the poor I guess

  • da_g@feddit.it
    817·
    1 year ago

    I know this could be controversial, but in some countries immigration is quite a problem, there isn’t enough work for everyone and the crime just gets higher an higher plus they do it illegally, not quite the same even though I get y’all sentiment

    • drolex@sopuli.xyz
      142·
      1 year ago

      It’s not controversial, it’s just wrong. Immigration never takes jobs away, it always allows to create more jobs by inflating the local economy. Miami absorbed Cuban migrants after Mariel, and went richer. It has been widely studied now: immigrants took first low paying jobs that were understaffed, it injected more money in the local economy and it allowed spouses who were not working because they were doing the low paying jobs for free (nannying for instance) to get back to high paying jobs, it injects more money… Same in Germany with Syrian intake

      • git@lemmy.world
        33·
        1 year ago

        It isn’t always true tho it is true for developed countries with low birth rates. For many developing countries immigrants taking low level jobs is a negative because there isn’t enough high level jobs. And I am saying this as someone who is supportive of immigration

        • this@sh.itjust.works
          4·
          1 year ago

          And the USA is in that group now. We have about 1.78 births per women in the us and that number is declining. You need a birth rate of over 2 per women in order to sustain a population without immigration. If a place does not sustain their population their economy cannot grow and if your birth rate is lower than 2 immigration is the only viable option to sustain it. Less people = less specialized jobs = less overall jobs = worse economy.

        • fu@libranet.deOP
          1·
          1 year ago

          @git @drolex that seems to assume that individuals born in a particular geographic region should have better access to employment than those born somewhere else. Am I understanding you correctly?

      • da_g@feddit.it
        210·
        1 year ago

        It doesn’t always work out man, I live it in first person, they don’t integrate don’t work because we need every last job we have and distrust public peace

    • Captain Minnette@lemmy.fmhy.ml
      142·
      1 year ago

      there isn’t enough work for everyone

      Immigrants induce demand for goods and services just like anyone else, thus the jobs to render those goods and services.

      the crime just gets higher and higher

      Technically depends on the country but this is usually false.

      plus they do it illegally

      Law is not morality. Perhaps it shouldn’t be illegal.

      • Venutian Spring@lemmy.fmhy.ml
        9·
        1 year ago

        I always hated the legal argument. No landmass was ever historically conquered /populated / taken over / whatever through “legal immigration” except by indigenous peoples of those lands. These immigrants are trying to find better lives for themselves and their families and it’s horrible that people refuse to show any empathy for their struggles or dreams

      • da_g@feddit.it
        07·
        1 year ago

        I’m just not going to talk to someone who thinks he’s morally superior just because he will never admit he’s wrong even if he is plus you don’t know our situation

      • Ghost_Seeker69@sh.itjust.works
        010·
        1 year ago

        Immigrants induce demand for goods and services, thus jobs

        Except when the highest demand is for land. So they end up illegally occupying land, often government-maintained land that it usually allocates to agricultural projects.

        Perhaps it shouldn’t be illegal

        If you’re a third world country with a dense population and the population overflow is coming from an even more densely populated country that seems to have no motive to control it, then it damn right should be illegal. I’m not sacrificing my demographic if you can’t take any right steps to regulate yours.

        • black0ut@pawb.social
          0·
          1 year ago

          First of all, migrants not only generate jobs, but they also work the jobs that most native people don’t want. Most farms and construction works nowadays are occupied by inmigrants, because they don’t steal your job, they take the ones that you didn’t like.

          Second of all, most countries are not populated to their fullest. There’s a lot of space, both horizontal and vertical, and Europe can perfectly house the inmigrants that it gets. And if space is such a big problem, then you should look at why we are letting entities like banks and “governments” have lots (thousands) of empty houses.

          • Ghost_Seeker69@sh.itjust.works
            1·
            1 year ago

            Not well-versed about the situation in the West. Read my comment again, especially the last part; I’m talking about densely populated third-world countries like mine.

  • em2@lemmy.ml
    21·
    1 year ago

    Maybe they’re afraid of the families of the rich suing them /shrug

  • HelloImFrank@kbin.social
    165·
    1 year ago

    Nobody cares that they are millionaires!
    You think the coastguard is only helping them because they are millionaires? No they are trying to help because it’s their job!

    I guess all those miners getting stuck in mines during collapses and millions of equipment was shipped over to try and save them over weeks of time was because the miners were all millionaires.

    You have a fucked up view of the world if you think only millionaires get helped in emergency situations.

    • revelrous@sopuli.xyz
      62·
      1 year ago

      If you go up a mountain to poke tigers, and a tiger shockingly eats you, should society drop everything and race up the mountain to find your pieces? It’s disingenuous to equate this to the miners.

    • szczur@kbin.social
      1·
      1 year ago

      Well, you know. In this particular case the Coastal Guard did not do their job. That’s what gets the uproar.

  • tomve_cz@kbin.social
    323·
    1 year ago

    Migrants shouldn’t go to europe in first place.

    I’m thanking god (like ateist) every day that I’m not living in that part of europe where is raping, murdering, gang wars daily business.

    • szczur@kbin.social
      111·
      1 year ago

      And why are they migrating, I wonder. If only there were reasons other than purely economic ones, like war, lack of stability, extreme droughts and other fucked up things we tend to think of while considering third world countries - many of them destabilized forever by the western nations.

      The thing is, we’re both lucky, my Czech friend. They were not. What are they supposed to do? Die there, just because the richest and most privileged place in the world is too good to help out?

      • tomve_cz@kbin.social
        219·
        1 year ago

        Muti Merkel and her ‘Wir schafen das’ promised them free money.

        They came here for free money. Not for european culture and values.

        Germans / French women and girls are raped every week by migrants.
        Knife attacks are common business in Germany / France.
        Sweden is admitting that they can’t handle gang wars made by migrants.

        Europe is getting to destroy by migrants because they don’t give fuck about europe.

        Peace, love for everyone is one big fairy tale. World / nature / universe doesn’t work like it.

        Move out of europe if you hate europe.

        • szczur@kbin.social
          4·
          1 year ago

          Man, the one and only reason humanity is a thing so different than the others is because we have a natural tendency towards helping out each other and cooperate in ways not observed amongst other species. Empathy and benevolence are inherently human traits and it’s what made our society rise above in the first place.

          But some people are assholes and you’re a great example of that.

        • fu@libranet.deOP
          71·
          1 year ago

          @tomve_cz @szczur cultures and values change over time. That is the natural progression of the world. Migration is a human right, keeping your lilly white part of the world lilly white is not.

        • klieg2323@lemmy.piperservers.net
          111·
          1 year ago

          Thanks for reminding me these garbage takes aren’t exclusive to the us, and sometimes you Europeans are even crazier with your xenophobia.

          • n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca
            2·
            1 year ago

            currently, I believe India takes the cake on that particular front, at least prime minister Modi does. For example, the ruling part is making all schools, public & private, remove references to evolution and the periodic table of the elements from grade 10 science curriculum as it challenges Hindu Nationalist ideas of Indians being the first peoples, and the greatest scientists.

      • da_g@feddit.it
        36·
        1 year ago

        You don’t live what we live so I don’t think you can understand

          • da_g@feddit.it
            3·
            1 year ago

            Very easy actually, because they do not live the struggle they can easily say do this or do that but they don’t really know what it’s happening, just today a young girl, 12 yo, was raped by one of this immigrants, the crime rate went up a lot

            • n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca
              11·
              1 year ago

              rape is wrong, nothing changes that. Men rape women, do you want to deport all men?

              • da_g@feddit.it
                11·
                1 year ago

                Absolutely not only the one who do something wrong, as some as they are found guilty, seams reasonable enough to me, no? Unfortunately that would be the majority, but would make my country a better place

                • CookieMeowster@beehaw.org
                  0·
                  1 year ago

                  I think you missed the point there, they were talking about all men. If deportation prevents rape, that should, by your logic, endorse deporting any and all rapists. Also let’s throw in there that rapists come in all genders, so basically prevention through group deportation would leave us with a pretty empty country. (And who would take us in, then, as that would make us migrants ourselves?)

                  Edit: I am unsure if I interpreted your comment as intended - with “only the one who do something wrong”, were you refering to the sentenced migrants, or the sentenced men in general?

            • black0ut@pawb.social
              0·
              1 year ago

              A while ago a guy was punched to death for being gay by a group of people with the same political opinions as you. Does that mean that you should be immediately deprived of your human rights? You can not compare every single inmigrant to something that happened one day.

              • da_g@feddit.it
                1·
                1 year ago

                When did I talk about the LGBTQ+ community? Obviously that is bad, you should not kill someone based on their sexual preference

          • da_g@feddit.it
            13·
            1 year ago

            I joined this server because it was free unlike the official instance, with the people coming from reddit

          • da_g@feddit.it
            14·
            1 year ago

            Well I see what I see and I don’t like it, a random stranger on the internet who thinks he’s morally superior to me will not make me change idea

            • SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              0·
              1 year ago

              …is talking from my personal experience living around immigrants and minorities in an European country “acting morally superior” now?

              c’mon.

  • Col3814444@kbin.social
    42·
    1 year ago

    Problem is the choices are;

    A) seeing migrants die en masse makes people feel bad and helpless and weak.

    B) Allowing people to say “stupid dumbass billionaires” makes people feel like they are better than some stupid dumbass billionaires.

    It was always going to be B. Most times the media just goes where we demand it goes. If you want to complain about why the media is so shit -blame all of us.

  • StankFlipper@lemmy.ml
    19·
    1 year ago

    If these dumbasses have enough money to drop on a ticket aboard this sub to look at something you can see on a documentary, they should also have to foot the bill for the rescue mission. I’m sure all these rescue programs are tax funded that they dodge themselves. So, not only are they squirreling and eating up money we could all be using, but now we’re picking up the check.

  • VubDapple@lemmy.world
    221·
    1 year ago

    Overheard:

    “They paid for the full Titanic experience and that’s what they got. What’s the problem?”

  • Ronno@kbin.social
    257·
    1 year ago

    It’s easy to polarize with such a headline/picture. Reality is way more nuanced than this:

    Migrants are in fact being saved from shipwrecks, it is (sadly) in the news every week or so. The main problem is that these migrants don’t have communication devices with them to signal emergencies, unlike the submarine. The boat on the surface alarmed emergency services when they lost connection with the sub, starting the rescue operation. It is difficult to rescue a boat of migrants, when you don’t even know that they are in danger in the first place.

    Secondly, the harsh reality is that most migrants try to enter a country illegally. Which by definition, is a huge risk on their part. The rich people on the sub were not doing anything illegal. However, in both cases, the people in or on the boat accepted the risks involved in their endeavor.

    • fu@libranet.deOP
      137·
      1 year ago

      @Ronno the problem is making the natural human right of migration illegal in the first place.

            • fu@libranet.deOP
              22·
              1 year ago

              @Ronno @Banana this sounds very similar to “who will pick the cotton?” that was “just asking questions” as to why slavery should remain legal in the southern united states in the 19th century. It’s the right thing to do. One’s individual rights does not force obligations on the other. A freed market would provide.

              • Ronno@kbin.social
                1·
                1 year ago

                IMO, those are very different situations, with slavery their freedom was taken. Most of the migrants (not refugees) are free, they are simply in search for a better life. Which is understandable, don’t get me wrong. But the picture that is painted is too bright, people hop on a boat to “paradise” and are promised a life of riches. The reality is, this is not the situation they will find themselves in. Even if we were to allow them into the country, they would still live poor lives. Sure some will succeed, but most of them don’t have the foundational knowledge/skills/command of the language of the country to get a job and find a place to live.

                Meanwhile, looking at my own country The Netherlands, we see that natives are also struggling for housing. My generation is basically fucked, young families cannot buy nor rent a home to start their family in. This will impact The Netherlands for years/decades to come, it will be reflected in birth rate and future workforce. Allowing other people in the country now would be catastrophic.

                On the other hand, recently there was an article about an approach by French farmers which I like. They sourced Moroccan workers, that could work in France for a couple months (IIRC max stay was 3 months), during this time, the workers would receive fair pay. After the work permit ends, the workers have to go back to Morocco. Then they are only allowed to go back to work in France after a period of time, with a new workers permit.

                The key benefit is that workers bring the money back home, benefitting Morocco financially, and France with workforce. Most of this work by the farmers is seasonal anyway.

          • Banana@feddit.it
            72·
            1 year ago

            Then that mean you don’t have enough geopolitical knowledge and if you want get an more advanced opinions about that subject you should not only read and learn about humanitary knowledge (all live matter) but also those who don’t have the same opinion. I hope you will be able to understand and not be someone who is unable to understand because most people’s prefer get use to general opinion and what the media tell them (manipulate) to think with the objective to separate them in order to manipulate them more simply.

            Edit : it’s literally the case in every nation.

          • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
            64·
            1 year ago

            … Of course it is? We have things like taxation and social safety nets that allow a society to function. Never mind the simple fact that some places are stressed for resources as it is. That’s not to say it can’t be done better, but it’s naive to think it’s “simple”. Never mind that simple doesn’t necessarily mean easy…

              • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
                1·
                1 year ago

                I’m having a difficult time thinking of any form of society where people don’t pool at least some portion of their surplus to help the group as a whole (and lift those up who have a deficit). Are you saying that shouldn’t be a thing?

      • gun@lemmy.ml
        43·
        1 year ago

        How are you going to continue to enforce gun control in your country if there are zero borders?

        • fu@libranet.deOP
          31·
          1 year ago

          @gun i don’t enforce gun control laws now. As far as those that do…well…ACAB.

          • gun@lemmy.ml
            02·
            1 year ago

            Right, but if you want to stop school shootings with gun control and are also left wing enough to want zero borders, how will gun control be possible if crazies can just go and get their guns from places where its legal to get them. Am I fascist for pointing out an obvious contradiction?

              • gun@lemmy.ml
                1·
                1 year ago

                I did. It’s just a random example to argue what @Banana@feddit.it was saying about reality being more complicated.

        • fu@libranet.deOP
          9·
          1 year ago

          @gun open migration doesn’t require the elimination of borders. There is a border between Germany & France, but that doesn’t mean they have to stop people from crossing it. It still exists, laws are different, etc.

          • gun@lemmy.ml
            2·
            1 year ago

            If you don’t stop people from crossing it, how do you check what they are carrying? How do you prevent guns from moving across a border in that case?

  • 🐱TheCat@sh.itjust.works
    81·
    1 year ago

    But silver lining, we now know we can get the rich to take care of themselves if we offer them sketchy exploration opportunities too exclusive for the poors

    • cnnrduncan@beehaw.org
      5·
      1 year ago

      A bunch of super wealthy dudes (including a bloke who went to space with Mr. Amazon and two members of one of Pakistan’s biggest petrochemical families) got into an obvious death trap after signing a waiver that said that there’s a decent chance that it’d kill them and now that it’s gone missing multiple governments are spending millions of dollars on an attempt to rescue them on the off chance that they’re actually still alive because the lives of the wealthy matter more than the lives of normal people.

      • ZapBeebz@beehaw.org
        41·
        1 year ago

        Or maybe it has to do more with the region in which they’re lost. The USCG is typically very good about aiding anyone within their AOR, no matter their socioeconomic class. This should be framed more as “why isn’t Europe/Greece doing their jobs” than “why are the USCG/Canada actually doing their jobs”.

    • jeebus@kbin.social
      6·
      1 year ago

      Some rich people got put into a submersible where the glass hatch is bolted to the vehicle. The pilot then proceeds to turn on the Xbox controller to activate the vehicle. None of these rich people thought they should ask if the vehicle had and safety precautions, or perhaps a fucking steering wheel. The media has gone nuts over this story. Like “balloon boy” nuts.

    • Limeey@lemmy.world
      8·
      1 year ago

      Rich dude created a company that provides submarine tours of the titanic wreckage, except he built it and operated it stupidly (off the shelf “camping” parts, bad weather conditions). Now he’s trapped in the submarine with like 4 other folks where no one knows where they are, and they are expected to run out of oxygen in like 12 hours from posting this.

      Super tragic but like, totally avoidable.