If you can’t afford the bill then don’t eat there. That sucks to hear I know. However the only way we’re going to reign in costs is by sticking to what’s affordable. If restaurants can’t charge that price then food distributors have to lower prices too. We all benefit by sticking to affordability.
If you’re worried about money you absolutely should open up the restaurant’s menu on their website or before you order and figure out what you can afford with a 20% surcharge. That said tipping was created by the industry to externalize costs and it needs to go die in a fire.
I don’t eat out at resturants ever - and guess what! When that happens, they bitch and moan about my not supporting local businesses, and steal millions in PPP loans!
You’ll hate to hear this, but restaurants struggling to fill positions and having to offer more benefits and pay to attract wait staff is the only way to end tipping culture. Tipping will never end itself.
We can also straight up ban it. But yeah I know businesses aren’t just going to willingly stop it.
I think the point isn’t about the bill but the expectation of massive tips. It’s too out of control to me, I used to tip 20% everywhere. Now I’ve gone back to 15% for regular service, and 20% if it’s really exceptional.
20% minimum unless the service is horrible. It’s not your fault the servers are paid BELOW minimum wage because the employer expects you to tip. But it nonetheless is the expectation and is the right thing to do. If you can’t afford to tip correctly you can’t afford to eat out.
To be clear, i think we should get rid of tipping economy, but while it is the norm, you absolutely have to tip.
The entitlement from servers is horrendous.
10-15% and if you don’t like it you can have zero.
Worth mentioning there is a big diff between USA and Canada. US is fucked and I have no comments about tipping there.
I only disagree with the “unless” clause. If they’re underpaid and the restaurant is doing it because they won’t be at fault then you should tip that much anyway.
At the least they will get more money and remember you as a temporary savior for better service next time. The unless clause basically just tells me “dance for your meal, peasant”
“20% minimum” is excessive, I say this as someone with years of serving experience.
15% for competent but unremarkable service
20% for remarkably good service, more for truly excellent service
10% for remarkably bad service, less for truly horrible service
Tip is a extra for exceptional service, paid voluntarily on top of the base cost of the service.
Some states honor the state minimum wage which is higher than federal and the tips really are just extra. Just so you know, whatever it’s worth to you.
Sure, but on the flip side, I’m paying for the service already. It’s not on us to subsidize the cost.
TIpping was meant and should only be done as a reward for job well done. Not a defacto standard expectation just because you did your job.
That’s what your pay is.
NOW, go fight for better wages. Unionize, promote higher minimum wages, be the change you want to see. But sitting here and bitching out customers because they don’t tip is a you problem.
It was popularized during world war 2 as an economic and pro business measure. That’s why we have the modern system.
In many places including Washington state servers are actually paid minimum wage of a bit over $16 an hour. We also have pervasive tip requests. I have gone to a restaurant where ordering and drinks was self serve, the employee makes you a hot sandwich which you take to go and the robot which takes your order requests a default 20% tip.
It’s not your fault the servers are paid BELOW minimum wage because the employer expects you to tip.
That’s not the case in canada (obligatory excluding Québec) yet we still have the same tipping expectation.
Yet one of the other awful cultural things getting exported from south of the border
At what point did this minimum change from 10 to 15 to 18 and now 20? Restaurants increase the cost of food items and your tip is a proportion of that. Why would the cost of food increase AND the proportion of tip also increase? That’s double dipping and yeah, people should be pissed about it
Because in many restaurants tipping is covering more employees over the same period. Also, COL went up faster than meal price inflation.
What does covering more employees over the same period mean? I don’t follow. Also, you’re assuming that customers’ salaries increased with COL and inflation. They haven’t. These policies just squeeze value out of customers. Of course they’re offended
I’ve never had anyone say anything about a 15-20% tip.
Tipping service workers is one of the very few times in our life when we can say “The people directly serving me deserve to get paid more, and while I can’t raise their wage, I can at least make sure they’re getting paid well while they serve me” and the fact that people are upset about that and actively refuse to tip is just crazy to me.
Like, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but tipping generously is one of the times when we can come pretty close! Maybe instead of having a $70 meal on the brink of a recession, have a $50 meal and tip up to the $70 that’s in your budget?
It just incentivizes being an asshole. Assholes give zero tips and get to keep more of their money, while normal people have to pay the empathy tax.
And just think, they could all get paid properly if the restaurants just included those tips in the prices instead of playing this stupid fucking tipping game
Yes, that would be ideal. Since that’s not currently the case at all establishments, we can take other steps.
Yep! The people directly serving us deserve to get paid more, and while we can’t raise their wage, we can at least make sure they’re getting paid well while they serve us.
It’s sad how much flak you’re getting for this reasonable take. I’m lucky enough to be able to afford eating out a couple times a week, and I’m not scared of sharing a bit of my wealth with the neighborhood.
Right!? If you’re lucky enough to be financially secure right now, tipping can even be seen as a form of mutual aid!
It’s the last bit. His first paragraph is a good outlook. Encouraging everyone to tip 25-50% is insane and stupid.
People tend to vote based on the worst part of a comment.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. When did I ever say 50%? Someone else botched their math and got to that number, and I even took the time to explain why their math was wrong. I have only told others to “tip generously”, to always include a tip in their budget while dining out, and in your specific case to tip more than 15%. Even in the offhand example I gave that you think is so insane and stupid, it only comes out to a 33% tip. The people who do the lion’s share of the actual labor deserve the lion’s share of the profits, and there’s nothing insane or stupid about that.
Are you tipping 50%?
I aim for 25-30% tip when I get standard service and when there aren’t any comped apps/drinks/desserts. If the server is amazing or if they’re giving us free stuff, I give more. 50% is very rare for me to hit, but I did leave 50% at a family dinner a few weeks ago.
Why did you ask about 50% specifically?
Your example is a $20 tip on a $50 bill.
$70 meal to $50 meal is a $20 difference and you said to use the difference.
I guess 40% is the actual number but it was close enough for a random internet discussion. Lol
A $50 meal has sales tax, as well. Tipping up to $70 means the server gets $15-16-- which is a 33% tip.
You are changing from a $70 meal and a $50 meal to a $50 meal rounding up to $70.
There is sales tax on the $70 meal at the same percentage.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying
You forgot that tax would be included at the same rate on a $70 meal as a $50.
You can’t use tax as an excuse on the 50 since the 70 would have it too.
Yeah, either that’s pretty dumb or you’re pretty wealthy.
A standard tip is 15%. Up to 20% is reasonable. Anything more is generosity, and should never be expected.
The thing about inflation is that 15% of a larger number is a larger number. Inflation is built in, and you don’t need to add it twice.
Not everybody can be remembered as the guy who gives good tips. That’s not how it works.
I make $1 above minimum wage in Los Angeles, so I’m wealthy in a global sense but poor in a local sense. I just live a frugal life with few expenses or vices beyond gaming and smoking, and that’s what enables me to tip generously and give to mutual aid groups. I probably eat out less often than the average American, and I don’t own a car, but I’m OK with losing those things. I am able and willing to make those sacrifices, so I do so. If you’re not able or not willing to make those sacrifices, that’s your choice, but don’t take the consequences of your choice out on the people who are on the bottom rung of society. That’s just gross.
Tipping 15% isn’t “taking your choice out” on anyone. 15% is a fine and normal tip.
Maybe it used to be decades ago when we first formed our opinions about this stuff, but times have changed since then. Rent has done nothing but go up, while the federal minimum wage has been $7.25/hour since 2009 and the federal tipped minimum wage has been $2.13/hour since 1991. That 15% you gave in 2010 was used for cigarettes and drinks after work, maybe coffee the next morning, maybe putting a little bit into savings or paying for college. Today, that 15% is used for rent. Rent and gas. Rent and gas and maybe childcare. Tipping more than 15% is our way to actually tell someone that they deserve more than just the necessities–and I don’t mean telling them with words or with comments on Lemmy, I mean telling them with action.
I can’t bring my self to encourage people to work stupid fucking jobs that pay $2.13 or whatever. Have some fucking self respect.
Anything more is generosity,
Nah bro… It’s a lie. If you were to trust the % ratio of people in these threads that are leaving 30+% tips, then the wait staff would be rolling in dough. Especially with food prices going up like they have.
This is ridiculous amount to tip. Good on you for being frivolous and not caring how much you spend, but understand that by your further escalation of tipping you are directly contributing to the businesses that are getting away with it.
Not 10 years ago, expected tipping was 10-15%. Now you’re throwing 25-30? Or 50? you realize how unstable, unrealistic and how bad a precedent that is setting?
It’s not a ridiculous amount to tip, but explaining why it’s reasonable requires an understanding of what commodity fetishism is. Are you already familiar with the term? If not, would you be willing to read a description of what it is if I typed one up for you?
No fucking way someone with an understanding of Marxist sociology supports tipping. Not a fucking chance. I’m so confused right now.
Socialist theory is great, but material conditions don’t care about our ideologies :) I use Marxism and socialism to help myself understand why I feel so alienated and to help fight those feelings, but I still understand that every worker in America lives as an exploited laborer under capitalism. I’m not wealthy or politically powerful or willing to use violence to enforce my views, so my praxis must be aimed at helping the little people until we have enough of a leftist coalition to take on the bigger issues.
Essentially, I’m not big enough to change the world for the better all on my own, but I can change the parts of it that I can reach out and touch with my hands, so why shouldn’t I?
You should, by not tipping, which will help create positive social change.
One thing: We’re not on the verge of a recession. The right wing media needs to make things up to attack and that was one of them. I couldn’t believe all that talk, nothing happened, nothing was about to happen, but they fear mongered for months.
It’s been about a year and a half since we’ve been right on the brink of a recession.
Wait until next year when they win and put us on the gold standard plan 2025
I personally 100% think we were on the brink of a recession and Biden dropping a trillion into the economy avoided it.
Biden should be talking up the soft landing every time he answers a question, imho. Uncle Joe saved us all a lot of pain with that.
It’s true, but it’s not a great talking point. Every time you say we’re in a good spot, you’re going to have voters who aren’t in a good spot. So then you have to couch it in talk about doing more.
You’re right in that it’s worthy of bragging about; it’s just a tricky subject.
if your job does not pay a livable wage without begging then maybe get another job
They (and many others) are getting paid below a living wage because that was the best job they could get. The wage problem isn’t our fellow workers failing to hustle harder, it’s systematic oppression of organized labor.
Never once have I had any person be rude to me for a 20% tip.
Getting real sick of the customer holding the weight of being the financial planner for a business and the owners getting by with no blame for wage stealing and shitty business practices in this circumstance.
Ahh yes, verge of a recession, but there’s enough money to patronize a sit down restaurant where it’s well known that the owner pays their staff starvation wages. Fuck your server!
The waiter isn’t patronizing the establishment in either sense of the word…
You almost got it. So close.
Show me those italics
In no interpretation of the English language did my sentence imply that the waiter was the one eating at the restaurant.
The “Fuck your server” At the end implies the preceding statement is about the server and it’s a bit jarring to read if it’s not.
Fuck your server, “Fuck your server”, or Fuck your server /s would have been more clear.
While the sarcasm is clear in your head when you write it, it’s often lost if you don’t denote it in some way. That’s why /s became a thing.
Yeah, if you’re not tipping, you’re not fucking over the owner. You’re not railing against the tipping system. You’re just fucking over your server. Which makes you a dick.
If everyone stopped tipping, the wait staff would demand more money, or leave. The owner would have to pay more to employees.
So yeah, not tipping is fucking over the waiter, unless everyone stopped tipping. Then that would fuck over the owner.
And then you would pay more for your meal, bringing it up to the same price as you paid before with the tip. Except probably the servers would make less money. People seem to overlook the fact that servers actually tend to make pretty good money in comparison to jobs with similar qualifications (although there’s a bunch of caveats on that).
Yeah… If you can’t afford the tip, then you can’t afford the meal. If you’re morally opposed to tipping culture, then don’t give money to the restaurants who rely on tipping.
Not tipping at a restaurant isn’t some revolutionary act, it’s just being a dick to workers. Waiters aren’t some sort of class betrayer, they’re just another worker being screwed over by management.
I don’t like tipping culture either, but at the end of the week that waiter is still going to have to pay rent.
If you’re morally opposed to tipping culture, then don’t give money to the restaurants who rely on tipping
So I need to stop using a service because of the way they treat their workers?
Tell me, do you use Amazon? Walmart? Do you eat McDonald’s? Or Dunkin donuts?
Fuck yes you entitled douche!
If you are morally opposed to how a service treats its workers and you still use the service, you’re aren’t actually morally opposed, you’re just an asshole virtue signaler.
The meal is plenty affordable until the wait staff demands the outrageous amount if 25%.
Weeg, I honestly don’t have a list with wage tables for each restaurant that I visit.
Don’t restaurants have to obey minimum wages? If they do, the waiters earn just like everyone else. If they don’t, then why the f don’t they?
Where is minimum wage livable?
In most places wait staff only need to be paid the minimum wage if their next-to-nothing wage plus tips doesn’t exceed minimum wage.
It’s not our problem.
They can work in a gas station and ern proper minimum wage. However, they want the tips because the are not taxed and add up to a healthy paycheck.
It’s insanity to shame people into tipping. (IMO)
The issue is: why are restaurants not paying their staff “proper” wages? Why are they the outlier, subsidised by customers?
If I eat at a restaurant, I already know I need to tip to make up the embarrassing gap between what the restaurant pays them and what a proper wage would be. Just raise your stupid prices to account for that and let me not do math after I eat.
But no, the Great Unwashed love a good illusion, so posting the actual price of a meal will drive them away. Adult society is full of toddlers.
I honestly don’t know why people go to restaurants in the US. I don’t want a guilt trip from the waiter with my expensive meal. Talk about a buzz kill.
If you live in a tipping culture and can’t afford to tip, then you can’t afford to eat somewhere with a waitress.
this is the reverse of “if you can’t afford a job that pays you find another job”. I’m all for tipping for service rendered and I’m the first to suggest tipping at tables, but some of the “recommended tip rates” requested at establishments are extortionary. I’m 100% ok with tipping 15-20%, even moreso/higher if it’s a super small order or the waiter went above and beyond but, my 45 minute meal that you visited twice maybe 3 times tops for does not warrent a 25+% tip rate.
this is the reverse of “if you can’t afford a job that pays you find another job”.
Not even close.
It does annoy me slightly when POS systems have placeholder tip amounts but they’re like 18%, 20%, and 25%. Sorry, but I just do the standard 15% in most cases so now I gotta calculate it out in my head.
If my tip is to be decided before I see my order in front of me, 5% tops if at all.
I’m gonna go with the standard 0% or round up the number if i feel like it.
Right? Like why is people’s STANDARD giving money away.
Because that’s how our service industry is built.
Tipping isn’t mandatory. But the issue is if a lot of people stop tipping all at once, servers will quit those locations. Then those locations will almost certainly go out of business because they can’t afford to pay a living wage because the US’s commercial real estate is insanely expensive. Current restaurant models essentially are built on this dynamic and to change it would require a lot of moving pieces to change. But for those pieces to change, a LOT of businesses will need to go out of business all at once to tank the real estate market.
And you may think: if they can’t afford to pay a living wage, they should go out of business. That’s a reasonable stance but it ignores the result: megacorps will buy up real estate and only huge chain restaurants will likely survive these kinds of busts. All your local favorite places will go under and be replaced by Fridays or Applebees because their thousands of locations can close 25% to focus on profitability.
I’ve been asked for tips when having carryout. And also getting a scoop of ice cream. Tipping is a relic of racist practices when southern people didn’t want to pay emancipated black workers a wage. It only still exists because restaurant owners lobby congress to keep it a thing. Stop bribing congress and pay your employees you fucks.
I’ve been asked for tips when having carryout.
You’re just complaining now. That has not been customary and it annoys me too. Don’t tip if service wasn’t rendered.
Tipping is a relic of racist practices when southern people didn’t want to pay emancipated black workers a wage.
Sad fact but entirely irrelevant to the issue today.
It only still exists because restaurant owners lobby congress to keep it a thing. Stop bribing congress and pay your employees you fucks.
In two sentences you have identified why you can’t just stop tipping AND how to fix it: legislation.
If you stop tipping but still go out, you are essentially doing what racists in the past did by not paying people you would appear to not like. You not tipping is classist bigotry.
Fight for server’s rights in a way that actually makes a difference: contact your congress people and elect people who care about this issue. Not tipping is just hurting people at the lowest rungs of society while still taking their labor. Gross.
Fight for server’s rights
Yeah, this isn’t what you’d be doing. Survey servers and ask if they’d rather get tips or $15/hour and see what kind of responses you get.
Normally, you’re paying a tip on service. So, the waiter hovering over your table and collecting your order / refilling your drink / dusting off the table between courses is part of the dining experience. Its fee for service.
But yeah, now the credit card reader asks if you want to pay a tip to the fucking vending machine. Its asinine.
There’s a self service store in the Newark airport that sells overpriced snacks for travelers stuck without any other options. It asks you for a tip while you check yourself out. As if paying $6 for a cup of juice wasn’t bad enough already.
Price of the product and service is the list price. Tipping is extra
List price virtually never includes service fees and taxes, at least in the States. I swear, its like some of you people have never eaten out before.
I’ve been eating in restaurants from street food to nice ones on multiple countries, and continents. Service fee (and taxes too BTW) are always included in the list price. That’s the default
What kind of shithole country you’re living in?
I just had a POS machine recommend 20%, 25%, or 30% for percentages. It seems like it’s increasing
I just keep reading this as Piece of Shit machine, and I don’t think I’m too off the mark here.
Yes, very. The software on those things is terrible.
If you ever had to use one, you’d be right on the money.
The standard tip at a POS is 0. Generally the same for carry out.
If you’re not getting personal service by a human, you don’t need to tip.
They do it because they can get away with it and it makes money off of suckers.
I had one do that (well, even higher, 25, 30, 35, Other) for a retailer recently. Like, it took them under 10 seconds to ring me up and they should automatically get 25%? I chose zero.
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As a non-native speaker, I assume POS != Peace of shit?
POS in normal talk means piece of shit. POS in business talk means point of sale.
Point of Sale.
But you’re correct in that most of these Point of Sale systems are also Pieces of Shit.
Can confirm.
Source: I make POS systems.
Often it means that but in this case it means “Point Of Sale”
Point of Sale.
Listen, I hate the tipping culture here just as much as everybody else, but the fact is, if you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to go out. Should employees get a decent wage without it, absolutely yes. But they don’t right now, and you not tipping isn’t going to change that.
It’s not about “not tipping”, it’s 15% vs 25% and unreasonable expectations.
Ah, that makes sense, thanks.
My man, I have no idea why you got down voted. You’re 100% correct. Can’t afford to tip, can’t afford to eat out. Eating out is a luxury, not a necessity. Grocery stores have frozen food if you don’t want to cook.
Eating out is luxury and not necessity and that makes tiping a necessity?
When you say that common indulgences are “luxuries” are not required, you’re promoting austerity. You’re asking people to forgo life’s pleasures for no real gain. That NEVER works. People won’t just stay at home eating simple food unless they will go broke otherwise. With a world of billionaires we can’t ask for austerity; it’s morally bankrupt.
I mean, that feels like common sense to me. I have less money than I had last year, so my girlfriend and I eat out less, I buy less video games, I buy more chicken and less beef, I buy less alcohol, etc. etc. It’s just a reality of inflation.
We avoided the recession, the result is inflation is destroying our wallets, so we have to spend less to still pay our bills.
We avoided the recession, the result is inflation
That’s more of a function of corporate greed than anything else. They’re all hiding behind each other while ripping you off, and getting away with it because it’s difficult to call out any one company when they’re all doing it.
What are you going to do about it, compete in the marketplace? The barriers to entry are high enough that that is extraordinarily difficult. And if you do manage it, why would you charge less than market rate? And you’re likely to just get bought out by a bigger competitor anyway, so grats on your cash out.
I mean, sure, we can say it’s corporate greed, but also we’ve put over a trillion dollars extra into the economy in a short span due to COVID and Build Back Better, while at the same time there were supply shortages for years, plus record low unemployment causing a raising of wages, all without the fed reacting quick enough by increasing interest rates sooner. We’ve got every textbook condition for an increase in inflation rates.
Don’t forget the PPP where Trump refused to sign it if it had proper oversight.
No, but it makes tipping a necessity if you go out. My stance on this is that if you want to enact change, stop eating out. Continuing to eat out but then not tipping doesn’t do anything except shortchange the wait staff. The company still gets your money.
OP is right, and the users on Lemmy are salty. Waiters make $2.13 / hour they survive off tips. If you don’t tip, the system doesn’t change, you’re just an asshole
Waiters make $2.13 / hour they survive off tips.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped No.
Listen dude, that’s average wage. If you got stiffed one night out of the week, you’re SOL that night and you made $2.13 / hour. If you make less than $7.25 hourly in a pay period then you’ll be brought up to minimum wage, but in any given night, servers only make $2.13 hourly without tips.
If nobody tips for their entire shift they will make $7.25-$15 an hour, not $2.13. That $5.12-$12.87 is just pocketed by the restaurant if they get tipped.
That’s not true. The minimum wage guarantee is by pay period, not by shift
Waiters make the same minimum wage as everyone else near me…
They only make 2.13 an hour near YOU BECAUSE YOU KEEP TIPPING AND ALLOWING THE ABUSE FROM THE COMPANIES TO CONTINUE
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FWIW this is completely location dependent. Where I am at in the USA waiters are paid $15 plus whatever tips.
The issue here isn’t tipping in general… It’s the audacity to try and increase percentages while prices are also going up for everything, including that same meal compared to a couple years ago.
Tipping in general is bullshit and we need to fix the root cause of employers not being required or willing to pay fair wages, across the entire economy, not just service industries.
It works pretty well in developed countries
Visiting Japan was incredible, every price was transparent and you paid exactly what the menu said. Wish we could get that going here.
I got chased down the street on my first day by someone I tipped. I didn’t know it was actually taboo. Apparently tipping is an insult. The staff chased me down on the street to return it to me.
And you can find really cheap delicious food in Japan.
Lol, I see what you did there!
It’s true. The consumer is always who pays.
Tipping culture is basically a way for employers to allow customers to decide to undercut the employees and it’s remarkably inappropriate.
I’m a world without tipping, the wait staff will make normal wages, the food prices will go up. If you cannot afford that, you will eat at home.
If you can’t afford to live working for tips, you shouldn’t work at a job that’s dependent on tips.
“You should just make more money!”
“You should just work somewhere that doesn’t depend on handouts from customers for your wages!”
“If you don’t like it here then leave!”
This, but unironically.
If we continue to tip as a wage subsidy, where is the motivation to make companies actually pay their workers?
If we don’t tip, where is the motivation to make companies actually pay their workers?
Employees who won’t be able to make a living will go elsewhere. it’s not easy and instant, but eventually if a restaraunt can’t staff itself, it will collapse.
We should absolutely not be subsidizing restaraunt owners who are only keeping a float by paying low wages. if they can’t afford to properly pay their staff, they don’t deserve to operate.
Employees who won’t be able to make a living will go elsewhere. it’s not easy and instant, but eventually if a restaraunt can’t staff itself, it will collapse.
Then why not skip the step of customers choosing to tip at all? Why wouldn’t wait staff just protest/quit to get better wages? Wait staff collective bargaining is > than consumers collective bargaining simply because it’s a smaller population that’s easier to get together under a shared premise. The reality is that nearly every waiter/waitress I’ve talked to about it PREFER the current tip structure. They make more money.
Years ago when I first started out working, I also preferred it. I could walk home with a pocket full of cash well above minimum wage if the night was good.
I agree with you, actually. If you don’t want to tip, fine, don’t tip. But don’t go to a restaurant and then not tip, either, because not only are you still giving the company money, you’re shortchanging the actual person you want to help.
We are not short changing anyone. A tip isn’t a guaranteed income from working.
Also, it’s halrious that you agreed with the previous person, then instantly renegged and said the opposite and went back to he same garbage you said before.
Tipping culture is wrong. Never tip, stop begging.
The hostility is entirely unnecessary. If you eat out and don’t tip, the only person you’re hurting is the person you claim to want to help. If you can’t tip, eat at home. If you can, then do so while still fighting for better workers rights. It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp.
But this is specific to sit down restaurants. Do I tip when all I receive is counter service? Or take out?
If you’re picking it up yourself, I think tipping is unnecessary. If it’s being delivered, I always make a point to save enough for a tip.
I’m not contradicting myself. All of my points can coexist.
- If you don’t want to tip, fine, stop tipping.
- If you go out to eat, tip your staff.
- If you want the tipping culture to change, stop going out.
You’re correct, a tip is not guaranteed income, that’s the entire problem. I don’t understand why what I’m saying is so hard to understand. The company will only make up for lost tips for a waiter for so long before they’re fired. Continuing to go out to eat and then not tipping changes nothing, it just makes the waitstaff’s lives harder.
If everyone today stopped tipping, do you think companies would suddenly begin to pay more? I’d wager that wage increases start with the waiting staff, and ends there. Why are you pushing the responsibility onto the customer?
I’m not pushing the responsibility anywhere. If anything, I think it’s the government’s responsibility to take the tipping loophole out of minimum wage laws.
If everyone today stopped tipping, do you think companies would suddenly begin to pay more?
They won’t… And this is the point… Whether customers tip or don’t doesn’t matter. If we all collectively stopped tipping wait staff would still be the ones hit. It takes the wait staff collectively quitting/protesting to cause restaurants to change their ways… Or management of those restaurants. The consumer in this case means nothing.
I think their point is being missed.
In the USA at least in restaurants most servers work for tips. That’s 99.99% of their pay.
They’re saying that unfortunately because of a tipping culture you’re taking part in exploiting the worker unless you tip.
Businesses now adding tipping to POS for other stuff is their attempt to shift responsibility for paying their worker into you.
I think the dude you’re replying to is mixing their messages some.
Thanks for the clarification. I sometimes get tunnel vision and forget people live in places with different laws and regulations. Yes, I’m specifically talking about US states where it’s legal to pay a waiter $2.13 an hour because tips make up the rest of federal minimum wage.
you are proposing that if we all stop tipping, companies will be motivated to pay their workers; you are correct, this is what would happen if we all stopped tipping at the same time.
this process is known as collective action. it is incredibly important to remember that collective action only works when it actually happens. in other words, your individual action of not tipping your waiter is ONLY beneficial to your waiter if you can make sure one else tips either.
do you have this power? (i think you don’t; if you do i beg of you to exercise it lol.)
now consider who actually holds the power here. at any point, your restaurant’s owner could institute a no-tip policy, thereby ensuring that no one has to tip, ever. several restaurants already have done this, and it works. now, you might (correctly) note that this may gives an unfair advantage to other competing restaurants who do not implement no-tip policy. this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.
so there’s kind of this imbalance, where yeah technically it’s possible for us as eaters of food to “fix” the tipping problem, but its way way easier for the people in charge (whether that’s government or owners) to fix it, because they have the power of coordination on their side.
tldr, tip your waiters and advocate for anti-tipping policies if you want to maximize long term benefits for everyone.
benefits for everyone.
No, not benefits for everyone. Servers will never get a wage that’s equivalent to the tips they get now. Never.
Go survey servers on the subject and see what they think.
I’m not necessarily against no tipping areas, but I’m not going to act like it benefits the workers. It’s more of a crab bucket mentality where we bring the better paying low-skill job in line with all the rest.
I hear a lot of this rhetoric but it sounds like you’re just saying this is how it is and I’m going to accept it which I think is a cowards approach. If you want to make change then you have to do something about it by going to restaurants and not tipping you are sending a message. Does it hurt the server? Maybe, but in the end it’s not my responsibility to pay them and if more people stop tipping then maybe things will change. With that being said, I don’t go out to any places that expect me to tip because I know there are people like you that think I’m evil because I don’t want to give my hard-earned money away to someone else for doing their job.
Maybe I should’ve worded my original comment better, because I never said we should just accept it. I explicitly think we shouldn’t accept it by refusing to do business at places that push tipping instead of paying their staff proper wages.
Probably should’ve led with that.
Don’t hate the player, the owner is the one to blame
If I went up to a kid and was like ‘hey kid, can I buy your bike for $50’ and he was like ‘yeah sure that sounds great I agree’ … I’d be pretty fucking pissed off if he was going around telling everyone I ripped him off when I bought his bike and trying to pressure people into giving him an additional donation.
For fucks sake kid, just say no to the $50. Say yes when you actually agree to the pay. It’s really not hard, and it’s all completely and totally optional.
Yes and no. It’s a vicious circle, why would an employer, the owner, start paying a proper salary if they dont have to, no one else does, and they would probably go out of business by doing so?
At some point the player needs to put the foot down and start making demands. Few rights were handed out for free throughout history, usually someone need to wake up and start fighting for them.
The US has some catch up to do, its not only waiters. White-collar folks could do better too… I’ve (Europe/Australia) heard from too many American colleagues and managers that they wished they also had paid sick leave, parental leave, so much PTO, and long service leave (look it up, an Australian thing, a few extra weeks off after a few years of service, hoe many depends on the state you live in).
At some point the player needs to put the foot down and start making demands.
And if you’re in an at-will employment state, they can fire you for that. Then poison you to all the other places in town where you might get a restaurant job.
I don’t think you understand how difficult it is to do any sort of labor action in the U.S. It’s frankly amazing that any of the Starbucks franchises have been able to unionize.
I would love everyone to be in a union, but it’s too easy to stop employers from quashing that idea. They can and will continue to get away with paying waiters less than they should and there are enough people desperate for work to take them up on that offer.
So I will continue to tip. It is not the fault of someone who just needs a job that they aren’t being paid what they deserve. The least I can do is give them a hand.
How would people remember what or whether to tip in each state?
Maybe not in each state but maybe in the one they reside, where it’s most likely they’ll go out eating? I’m not familiar with at will employment in the us but you seem to imply it’s inly in some states. What about the others.
And in the end, doesnt really matter how difficult it is for service workers to fight for those rights, no one else is going to do it for them which was my original point. What i do know is that the US has a history of people standing up and fighting for rights, it being difficult hasnt stopped others before.
People travel.
Is it really fair for the servers to be paid different amounts based on whether the person in the restaurant is from the area and therefore knows whether or not to tip? Isn’t that worse for them than it is now?
Is it fair for the servers not to be paid by their employers?
I’m at a loss mate. I’m having these conversations here on lemmy about us-unique problems that have pretty straightforward solutions (and note that I am not saying easy, but pretty obvious how there is one way to fix them, and pretty much one way only). All I hear back is weird stuff, of course it’s not fair to be paid different by locals than non locals but how did we even get down this rabbit hole? Everyone here seems to agree that tipping is stupid, that servers should unionise or at least ask for better treatment. Wtf, did Rosa Parker spend time arguing about how black people in some state had it worse than other states?
The same seems to happen when discussing about gun control. Not easy, what worked in other countries like Australia wouldn’t work here. But we need guns to defend ourselves from gun nuts. What about trans women that need to defend themselves (a real convo I had with someone, probably still in my comments history).
You know what? In other countries waiters are paid minimum wages, we barely suffer from tips issues, have universal healthcare, guns are pretty hard to obtain, mass shooting are a once in a century issue, our kids don’t do drills at school or have to go through metal detectors, white collar jobs have paid sick leave on top of 20-35 holidays days a year and if you need to fight nazis you can hit them with a reo bar. I’m not bragging, it’s sad to see how bad the US has it and even when discussing with people that agree in general with you (you seem to be in favour of unions etc) there’s always an obstacle or something that “non Americans don’t understand”, as i said in other comments you can wait for politicians or your employer to give you more rights or money but that rarely (never?) works.
No, of course it’s not fair. That’s exactly why I tip. Because it’s not fair for them and they need help.
I can’t change that for them. They probably can’t even change it.
That’s just not how America works unfortunately. America is totally beholden to corporate interests.
Also, saying “they do it in other countries” as if that means it’s possible in the U.S. when other countries have totally different laws is silly. Australia was able to get rid of guns because they don’t have guns enshrined in their founding document.
Wrong Australia was able to get rid of guns because everyone was shocked about what happened with a mass shooting, had the right to bear firearms been enshrined in the constitution there would have been a discussion about making a change to it, hasn’t the American constitution ever been amended? Any more reasons why changes can’t happen there? You guys fucking overcame slavery and black people managed to get equal rights (I am sure a few naysayers in the sixties were sceptical about that). Give yourselves more credit
Seems to me like this is happening in all 50 something states though, not just the ones with special laws, we sure that’s the problem?
Of course it is. Why would you expect different states to have different tipping policies? How would people remember what or whether to tip in each state?
Believe it or not, non-union restaurant businesses, being the vast majority in the U.S., have a lot more clout than unions.
How would people remember what or whether to tip in each state?
The tip “laws” are indeed different per state… and the onus is put on the business owner as it should be.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tippedThe people you’re interacting with on this forum are more than likely from more populous states definitionally. If you look up those states, they likely make way more than the 2.13$ that you fear they do.
I don’t remember fearing they make $2.13 an hour.
I fear they don’t make what minimum wage should be at the very least- $15 an hour.
This country is wide and disparate. 15$ in NYC is not equivalent to 15$ in the middle of nowhere Utah.
This is why states can choose to make minimum wage whatever they want. Simply blanket stating that 15$/hr for everyone is silly. But lets realize that many states DO require around 15$/hr (or close enough where a 1 dollar tip per table would net them 15 really easily)… and those states actually hold a significant portion of the population of the USA… meaning that most of the people you’re talking to here on Lemmy are LIKELY from those states. Does someone who lives in a house in the middle of nowhere Utah have the same requirements for income? You can look on zillow right now… There’s houses that appear fully functional for sale at $30,000 (357 results for less than 50k). Does that person need 15$/hr? Just because you’re used to prices where you live, and demand those wages at your location, doesn’t mean that those numbers make sense at other place in the USA.
So the real question… Where you live… on the table… are they already close to 15$, or close enough that a 5-10% tip which is what used to be customary would still get them over your magical 15$/hr number?
25% is INSANE, even not during recession.
It’s literally 1/4 of the meal.
INSANE.
I always found percentage to be a bit stupid as a measure. If I’m eating by myself max I will tip is 10%. All they did was walk out a plate of food and refill the water a handful of times
2 people then 15%
If there’s like 8 people then maybe 15% + 1% per person.
For decent service you would expect from competent staff that is, if it’s excellent than a bit more and terrible a bit less.
Genuine question: how does that work though?
- If I consume $30 worth, and tip 10%, waiter gets $3.
- If there’s two of us, and we consume $60, the waiter probably does 60% extra work for 100% extra tip at 10% of the total bill ($6)
I would have thought (but perhaps I’m wrong) that the waiter does less work per person as the number of people at a table increases, so why would the percentage tip go up?
And as far as the bill goes, if there’s only me, I’ll likely stick to soft drinks. Whereas when there are more people in my group, I’d be much more likely to grab a bottle of wine to share, pushing the total bill per person up, and thus the tip.
Look at Mr. Fatcat over here eating out while we’re on the verge of a recession.
Tipping is more than just a custom; there really is a culture to it. If you’re tipping only because you know the server makes less than minimum wage from the restaurant (or that greedy restaurant owners are completely to blame for this injustice), I think you may be misunderstanding an aspect of this culture.
Working in a restaurant is as hard a retail job as there is, and working as a server is often the hardest job in the restaurant. Being a truly good server requires a rare mix of people skills, math skills, memory, and a thick skin. So why do people choose to take the hardest job there is in the whole restaurant, when it pays less than all the other jobs?
Most servers end up getting paid better than the people doing other jobs in the restaurant. In most restaurants, servers make more than minimum wage. At the end of their shifts, most servers in turn tip-out the front-of-the-house employees, such as hosts and bussers, who often do only make minimum wage.
A truly excellent server may be the highest-paid employee for an entire shift – that certainly includes the manager and anyone else on salary, and it may even include the owner, when you add in labor and upkeep costs.
In order to make all that money, however, this server has to work at all the times that everyone else is out having fun – Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning. This server must put up with drunks, picky eaters and other narcissists, as well as seating errors and kitchen mistakes, all with a smile, for six or eight or ten hours straight. This server, who earns more than anyone else on the shift, is working harder than anyone else on the shift.
This is the other aspect that I wanted to address. Tipping culture is what gives that excellent server the opportunity to earn a better wage, more appropriate to the effort and expertise they devote to the job.
I’m sure this all sounds very capitalist, because it is. This may not be the most capitalism-friendly forum, I know, but I’m not trying to make any larger argument here.
I’m just saying that to me, it seems like this should be a “don’t hate the players” (owners, managers, servers, rich/drunk people who like to leave big tips) “hate the game” (tipping culture). And even if you do hate tipping culture, it couldn’t hurt to consider how it works for the people who don’t hate it.
First, good servers are far and few between and yet the expectation is always there (even in Canada for some bizarre reason). And people’s definition of good is also different. I don’t care about service with a smile, or being periodically asked if the food is good. That’s actually annoying to me. Just get my order right and get my bill within a reasonable time. Even if you are juggling 3-5 different tables, you have a notepad for a reason. That’s not worth much to me, especially since those are requirements of many other min wage jobs (ffs EMT personnel salaries are not paid much more than min wage, you see them asking for tips?).
Second, tipping culture goes easy beyond dining in. They ask for it whenever you pay, even takeout. That’s just rude imo.
Third, anecdotally, service quality is not correlated with tipping. The best servers I’ve experienced have been going to Japan where they don’t do tips.
And it may seem that this is punching down, but it is not because conceptually tipping is a mechanism to justify suppressing wages/value of labor by businesses. Instead, “hating The game” should be about raising min wage as a whole so businesses pay more, and if that means goods cost more, at least the consumers are more informed that way.
